Free college for all? Or massive debt for all?

[Oddball]

Other advanced nations invest in their societies, infrastructure and people. We operate under that silly "original sin" concept. You're fucked up for being born and you will pay for that for the rest of your life. No common purpose, no community, no communion, no unity, no cooperation, no civility. A society of predators and competition; in essence, a high tech jungle of a society.

 

[Moonglow]

Betsy DeVos: Student Loan Debt Is Now A 'Crisis'

Right now we have kids going into massive debt for useless degrees. They can't pay back their loans because their education doesn't match the needs of the job market.

Yet the left wants to transfer their mistakes and financial burden to EVERY AMERICAN via taxation so that anyone and everyone can attain the same level of useless education on the tax payers dime.

No talk about restructuring our faulty education system so that it actually trains young adults for a future career. These kids spend tens of thousands of dollars on classes that, while educational, serve no purpose in real world applications and careers.

There are welders making 6 figures with only a few years of technical school training. Training that didnt include a bunch of superfluous bullshit classes.
Meanwhile there are kids with 10's of thousands of dollars of debt, useless degrees and they are waiting tables or working phone centers.

This mess is what the Democrats want to push on everyone. Now we can all pay for someone elses USELESS LIBERAL ARTS degree while they wait tables at Applebees.


One other question for the left. If the people getting these degrees can't even pay them back after school is finished what the hell makes you think it is a viable system to make it "free"?

They wouldn't let you into college for free..

 

[H B Lowrie]

Other advanced nations invest in their societies, infrastructure and people. We operate under that silly "original sin" concept. You're fucked up for being born and you will pay for that for the rest of your life. No common purpose, no community, no communion, no unity, no cooperation, no civility. A society of predators and competition; in essence, a high tech jungle of a society.

View attachment 243863

So you have no rebuttal?

 

[caddo kid]

One other question for the left. If the people getting these degrees can't even pay them back after school is finished what the hell makes you think it is a viable system to make it "free"?

The problem is that the colleges have been allowed to jack up the prices because government is no longer subsidizing college.

When I went to UIC in the 1980's, tuition was about $1500 a year. I could pay that working 10 hours a week with a minimum wage job. Didn't have to because the Army was kind enough to pick that up for me, but I could have and that's the point.

Today, because the State and Feds have cut back so much, that same tuition is close to $18,000 a year. You couldn't pay that off with a min wage job if you worked 40 hours a week. And not surprisingly, the campus that was initially intended for inner city youth is now predominately white.

That said, even a worthless "liberal arts" degree puts you in a vastly better position than not having one.

I know that when I got let go from that job in 2008 that changed my mind about... everything... I was able to find a new gig within a few weeks. Other people without degrees but a ton of experience were out for months.

Could we do a lot of things better? Yup. Making it less accessible isn't one of them.

subsidies are just another form of 'socialism' which is what I always hear from those on the right bitching about all the time.

the gubmint should stop all subsidies; everyone pay your own way.

 

[anynameyouwish]

Betsy DeVos: Student Loan Debt Is Now A 'Crisis'

Right now we have kids going into massive debt for useless degrees. They can't pay back their loans because their education doesn't match the needs of the job market.

Yet the left wants to transfer their mistakes and financial burden to EVERY AMERICAN via taxation so that anyone and everyone can attain the same level of useless education on the tax payers dime.

No talk about restructuring our faulty education system so that it actually trains young adults for a future career. These kids spend tens of thousands of dollars on classes that, while educational, serve no purpose in real world applications and careers.

There are welders making 6 figures with only a few years of technical school training. Training that didnt include a bunch of superfluous bullshit classes.
Meanwhile there are kids with 10's of thousands of dollars of debt, useless degrees and they are waiting tables or working phone centers.

This mess is what the Democrats want to push on everyone. Now we can all pay for someone elses USELESS LIBERAL ARTS degree while they wait tables at Applebees.


One other question for the left. If the people getting these degrees can't even pay them back after school is finished what the hell makes you think it is a viable system to make it "free"?

Just like I think AFFORDABLE health care is a good idea I also think AFFORDABLE education is a pretty good idea.

I don't use the word FREE

Just affordable.

 

[MisterBeale]

The massive debt for all paradigm that we already have is intentional, and it's not just college kids. Yopur entire working class in in debt WITH the "proper" jobs. Privatize everything, feudalism is the way forward, fuck the people, fuck a globally competitive nation, capital has no nation.

Agreed.

They WILL crash the dollar and create a global-crypto that is biometrically attached to folks DNA, making all other trade and currencies illegal.

It's interesting isn't it. Just look at what we use our military for these days. Any 1 of the 3 of these will get you invaded by the empire:

1) Have a socialist economic system
2) Have a resource our capitalists/bankers want to take from you
3) Go off of the dollar

And of course Venezuela has the holy trinity of these. And empires in decline always at some point bring the plunder right back home.

IMO most of the news we hear at home about Venezuela are probably slanted.

No doubt, things are bad, but what I am hearing it is filled with propaganda and lies as well.

The Making of Juan Guaidó: US Regime-Change Laboratory Created Venezuela’s Coup Leader
Free college for all? Or massive debt for all?

Venezuela: Guardian sparing neocon blushes
Venezuela: Guardian sparing neocon blushes

Venezuela: a study in opinion manufacture
Venezuela: a study in opinion manufacture

Our "news" is managed by a half dozen multinational corporate conglomerate, deregulating the FCC was a serious mistake.

Edward Bernays - Wikipedia

The tech has only gotten more sophisticated and the people, speaking in broad brush terms, have become less sophisticated and coherent.

Not sure it really ever mattered. Political patronage and revolving door patronage make sure the industry is in bed with big government now anyhow. . . .

The judges, the lawyers, the bureaucrats, they are all bought off. Little folks don't matter, none of them.

Be careful you don't confuse Corporatism and Capitalism, eh?

I dig you. You are all right for a lefty. Most lefties don't realize the whole concept of the Deep State originated on the left through the writings of folks like professor emeritus of Berkley Peter Dale Scott and Salon founder David Talbot.

Revolving Door Politics, Regulatory Capture, Iron Triangles.

Nice link on Bernays. You might enjoy this. I don't know if you have ever read Chomsky, he is good too.

Propaganda by Edward Bernays (1928)

 

[MisterBeale]

Other advanced nations invest in their societies, infrastructure and people. We operate under that silly "original sin" concept. You're fucked up for being born and you will pay for that for the rest of your life. No common purpose, no community, no communion, no unity, no cooperation, no civility. A society of predators and competition; in essence, a high tech jungle of a society.

View attachment 243863

So you have no rebuttal?

We don't think Thomas Hobbes is silly.

 

[H B Lowrie]

The massive debt for all paradigm that we already have is intentional, and it's not just college kids. Yopur entire working class in in debt WITH the "proper" jobs. Privatize everything, feudalism is the way forward, fuck the people, fuck a globally competitive nation, capital has no nation.

Agreed.

They WILL crash the dollar and create a global-crypto that is biometrically attached to folks DNA, making all other trade and currencies illegal.

It's interesting isn't it. Just look at what we use our military for these days. Any 1 of the 3 of these will get you invaded by the empire:

1) Have a socialist economic system
2) Have a resource our capitalists/bankers want to take from you
3) Go off of the dollar

And of course Venezuela has the holy trinity of these. And empires in decline always at some point bring the plunder right back home.

IMO most of the news we hear at home about Venezuela are probably slanted.

No doubt, things are bad, but what I am hearing it is filled with propaganda and lies as well.

The Making of Juan Guaidó: US Regime-Change Laboratory Created Venezuela’s Coup Leader
Free college for all? Or massive debt for all?

Venezuela: Guardian sparing neocon blushes
Venezuela: Guardian sparing neocon blushes

Venezuela: a study in opinion manufacture
Venezuela: a study in opinion manufacture

Our "news" is managed by a half dozen multinational corporate conglomerate, deregulating the FCC was a serious mistake.

Edward Bernays - Wikipedia

The tech has only gotten more sophisticated and the people, speaking in broad brush terms, have become less sophisticated and coherent.

Not sure it really ever mattered. Political patronage and revolving door patronage make sure the industry is in bed with big government now anyhow. . . .

The judges, the lawyers, the bureaucrats, they are all bought off. Little folks don't matter, none of them.

Be careful you don't confuse Corporatism and Capitalism, eh?

I dig you. You are all right for a lefty. Most lefties don't realize the whole concept of the Deep State originated on the left through the writings of folks like professor emeritus of Berkley Peter Dale Scott and Salon founder David Talbot.

Revolving Door Politics, Regulatory Capture, Iron Triangles.

Nice link on Bernays. You might enjoy this. I don't know if you have ever read Chomsky, he is good too.

Propaganda by Edward Bernays (1928)

Chomsky I'm familiar with, he's very adept at dissecting power structures.

What I'm saying is that the little people do matter in the sense that they want us all complacent, compliant, working jobs and passive. The political activism and awareness of the 1960-70s terrified the power structure. The Powell Memorandum is quite instructive. And we're all under mass surveillance now as well, with militarized police trained by the Israeli military in population subjugation and control. So the system is nervous about something.

Be careful you don't confuse Corporatism and Capitalism, eh?

I think this society already has.

 

[H B Lowrie]

Other advanced nations invest in their societies, infrastructure and people. We operate under that silly "original sin" concept. You're fucked up for being born and you will pay for that for the rest of your life. No common purpose, no community, no communion, no unity, no cooperation, no civility. A society of predators and competition; in essence, a high tech jungle of a society.

View attachment 243863

So you have no rebuttal?

We don't think Thomas Hobbes is silly.

Other advanced nations invest in their societies, infrastructure and people. We operate under that silly "original sin" concept. You're fucked up for being born and you will pay for that for the rest of your life. No common purpose, no community, no communion, no unity, no cooperation, no civility. A society of predators and competition; in essence, a high tech jungle of a society.

View attachment 243863

So you have no rebuttal?

We don't think Thomas Hobbes is silly.

A very eurocentric male dominator god perceptual reality.

 

[MisterBeale]

Agreed.

They WILL crash the dollar and create a global-crypto that is biometrically attached to folks DNA, making all other trade and currencies illegal.

It's interesting isn't it. Just look at what we use our military for these days. Any 1 of the 3 of these will get you invaded by the empire:

1) Have a socialist economic system
2) Have a resource our capitalists/bankers want to take from you
3) Go off of the dollar

And of course Venezuela has the holy trinity of these. And empires in decline always at some point bring the plunder right back home.

IMO most of the news we hear at home about Venezuela are probably slanted.

No doubt, things are bad, but what I am hearing it is filled with propaganda and lies as well.

The Making of Juan Guaidó: US Regime-Change Laboratory Created Venezuela’s Coup Leader
Free college for all? Or massive debt for all?

Venezuela: Guardian sparing neocon blushes
Venezuela: Guardian sparing neocon blushes

Venezuela: a study in opinion manufacture
Venezuela: a study in opinion manufacture

Our "news" is managed by a half dozen multinational corporate conglomerate, deregulating the FCC was a serious mistake.

Edward Bernays - Wikipedia

The tech has only gotten more sophisticated and the people, speaking in broad brush terms, have become less sophisticated and coherent.

Not sure it really ever mattered. Political patronage and revolving door patronage make sure the industry is in bed with big government now anyhow. . . .

The judges, the lawyers, the bureaucrats, they are all bought off. Little folks don't matter, none of them.

Be careful you don't confuse Corporatism and Capitalism, eh?

I dig you. You are all right for a lefty. Most lefties don't realize the whole concept of the Deep State originated on the left through the writings of folks like professor emeritus of Berkley Peter Dale Scott and Salon founder David Talbot.

Revolving Door Politics, Regulatory Capture, Iron Triangles.

Nice link on Bernays. You might enjoy this. I don't know if you have ever read Chomsky, he is good too.

Propaganda by Edward Bernays (1928)

Chomsky I'm familiar with, he's very adept at dissecting power structures.

What I'm saying is that the little people do matter in the sense that they want us all complacent, compliant, working jobs and passive. The political activism and awareness of the 1960-70s terrified the power structure. The Powell Memorandum is quite instructive. And we're all under mass surveillance now as well, with militarized police trained by the Israeli military in population subjugation and control. So the system is nervous about something.

Be careful you don't confuse Corporatism and Capitalism, eh?

I think this society already has.

Nothing wrong with "leftism and socialism," as long as it is VOLUNTARY. And as long as it openly competes in the FREE MARKET.

DO NOT FORGET THAT.

I would much prefer to belong to an energy cooperative. The local energy monopoly acted like deceptive snakes during the last weeks frigid cold snap, just to save their profits. Especially in concert with the governor. I didn't trust them at all. Fuckers.

Likewise, I have NEVER used a bank, I have always been a member of a credit union, and I always use the local food co-op when ever I can, b/c they have cheaper and superior products.

That said, government sponsored socialism, the government CHOOSING the winners and losers will only create a police state when the little folks are NOT in control. The ruling elites will use the cover of "ideology" and politics to enrich themselves.

. . . . and thus, we come full circle round to this education question. THE CORRUPTION!

Top Contributors to Barack Obama, 2008 Cycle | OpenSecrets

"Because of contribution limits, organizations that bundle together many individual contributions are often among the top donors to presidential candidates. These contributions can come from the organization's members or employees (and their families). The organization may support one candidate, or hedge its bets by supporting multiple candidates. Groups with national networks of donors - like EMILY's List and Club for Growth - make for particularly big bundlers.


University of California $1,799,460
Goldman Sachs $1,034,615
Harvard University $900,909
Microsoft Corp $854,717
JPMorgan Chase & Co $847,895
Google Inc $817,855
Citigroup Inc $755,057
US Government $638,335
Time Warner $617,844
Sidley Austin LLP $606,260
Stanford University $603,866
National Amusements Inc $579,098
Columbia University $570,839
Skadden, Arps et al $554,439
WilmerHale Llp $554,373
US Dept of Justice $540,636
IBM Corp $534,470
UBS AG $534,166
General Electric $532,031
Morgan Stanley $528,182"



. . . so transparent.

 

[MisterBeale]

Other advanced nations invest in their societies, infrastructure and people. We operate under that silly "original sin" concept. You're fucked up for being born and you will pay for that for the rest of your life. No common purpose, no community, no communion, no unity, no cooperation, no civility. A society of predators and competition; in essence, a high tech jungle of a society.

View attachment 243863

So you have no rebuttal?

We don't think Thomas Hobbes is silly.

Other advanced nations invest in their societies, infrastructure and people. We operate under that silly "original sin" concept. You're fucked up for being born and you will pay for that for the rest of your life. No common purpose, no community, no communion, no unity, no cooperation, no civility. A society of predators and competition; in essence, a high tech jungle of a society.

View attachment 243863

So you have no rebuttal?

We don't think Thomas Hobbes is silly.

A very eurocentric male dominator god perceptual reality.

Take some class in biology or anthropology.

It isn't a "eurocentric male dominator god perceptual reality," it's just how nature works.

Natural and legal rights - Wikipedia

 

[H B Lowrie]

Other advanced nations invest in their societies, infrastructure and people. We operate under that silly "original sin" concept. You're fucked up for being born and you will pay for that for the rest of your life. No common purpose, no community, no communion, no unity, no cooperation, no civility. A society of predators and competition; in essence, a high tech jungle of a society.

View attachment 243863

So you have no rebuttal?

We don't think Thomas Hobbes is silly.

Other advanced nations invest in their societies, infrastructure and people. We operate under that silly "original sin" concept. You're fucked up for being born and you will pay for that for the rest of your life. No common purpose, no community, no communion, no unity, no cooperation, no civility. A society of predators and competition; in essence, a high tech jungle of a society.

View attachment 243863

So you have no rebuttal?

We don't think Thomas Hobbes is silly.

A very eurocentric male dominator god perceptual reality.

Take some class in biology or anthropology.

It isn't a "eurocentric male dominator god perceptual reality," it's just how nature works.

Natural and legal rights - Wikipedia

Sorry, biology is my field. You handed me a eurocentric perceptual reality citation, I'm satisfied it agrees with your perceptual reality. You're no idiot.

 

[MisterBeale]

View attachment 243863

So you have no rebuttal?

We don't think Thomas Hobbes is silly.

View attachment 243863

So you have no rebuttal?

We don't think Thomas Hobbes is silly.

A very eurocentric male dominator god perceptual reality.

Take some class in biology or anthropology.

It isn't a "eurocentric male dominator god perceptual reality," it's just how nature works.

Natural and legal rights - Wikipedia

Sorry, biology is my field. You handed me a eurocentric perceptual reality citation, I'm satisfied it agrees with your perceptual reality. You're no idiot.

Fair enough.

I have struggled for a very long time to try to understand what is the optimal level of human organization.

I have a friend that is a hard core Anarchist, I don't agree with that. Yet. . . . .

My Anthropology training from University informs me that our species has evolved with tribal leadership.


I really do think we need to consider those political philosophies at that point.

You have some fair points about investing in some community development, but at what level? The community? The City? The State? The Federal level? The global level? The higher the level, the more corruption will sneak in, and the more wealth inequality will result, with the free market being the casualty.

Yet. . . . anything that goes beyond the leader being out of touch with his subjects and the developments of an impersonal bureaucracy?

What is always called for is balance. . . .

 

[MisterBeale]

. . . but, then, there are those that say, government is just a cancer that is doomed to grow once you create it to begin with.

It is a mess in the end.

 

[Oddball]

. . . but, then, there are those that say, government is just a cancer that is doomed to grow once you create it to begin with.

It is a mess in the end.

You rang?

 

[MisterBeale]

. . . but, then, there are those that say, government is just a cancer that is doomed to grow once you create it to begin with.

It is a mess in the end.

You rang?

 

[Oddball]

 

[JoeB131]

Wow. YOU ARE REALLY DUMB.

Didn't bother reading the article that was linked in the OP did ya?

It had nothing to do with my point, so there's that.

Used to be, states subsidized education... not so much now, which is why these kids are in debt.

Anything that government gets involved in, the cost goes up. This is elementary economics. . . . .

It is also why health-care has skyrocketed, and why the defense industry is riddled with waste and corruption. If folks know that they don't have to compete and can charge what ever they want? They will.

Again, when you "Libertarians" go move to Somalia, I will take your hate of government seriously.

The reason why the costs have gone up is because government ISN'T Paying for this anymore.

 

[JoeB131]

The costs have been jacked up because the student loan program has become a blank check for colleges... A bottomless pit of debt creation to pay for college is a defacto subsidy...And since the supply of colleges is relatively fixed, the seemingly limitless supply of money will assure that prices escalate.

Not really.

The costs have gone up because the states aren't funding the state universities anymore....

Now, true, when everyone has to get a bachelor's degree to get an entry level job, of course the costs are going to go up.... that's simple supply and demand.

 

[Marion Morrison]

Well, I guess if it's free I'll be going back to school & getting my PhD

You're not smart enough to pass, next!