For the Capitalists on USMB.

[Oddball]

[
He's right Dude. And if you make something, that makes you a manufacturer and that makes you labor. You need to get on the right team.

And he's also right that your experience running a little business does not make you qualified to run the country, just like McCain crashing a few airplanes and being tortured didn't make him commander and chief material.

You need to quit telling me what I need to do and how I need to think, Buckwheat.

And who said anything about running the country??

 

[sealybobo]

Yeah, because now all the US IT prof. are using schooling to get their jobs instead of skill. But many other companies are often blind sided by the contracts the government has with MS, forcing them to go outside the country since they are not MS "certified". I didn't give the only reason, but one that demonstrates how "regulation" is hurting our country.

That is one of the excuses/reasons they give. Doesn't mean I believe them. If you look at all the facts, it seems that they are lying and doing it so they can pay lower wages.

Let me ask you something. Do you believe Bush/Cheney invaded Iraq for richous reasons or for $? You can never prove they went in for money, but they sure made a lot of money.

And you right wingers always have answers. Not good ones, but you got answers.

You understand that democrats are just as bad as Republicans when it comes to bending over for corporations, but you refuse to admit that corporations are working against us. Isn't that having it both ways?

PS. So you have no articles/websites backing up what you are saying? Then I call bullshit. You can't, because you are making it up. I could be wrong. Prove me wrong.

. "...working against us."? Ridiculous. Corporations don't work against us any more than does the wind or the sunlight.
.

Quick question then. Why do unions come to be?

Activity by labor unions in the United States today centers on collective bargaining over wages, benefits, and working conditions for their membership and on representing their members if management attempts to violate contract provisions.

Unions lobby Congress and so do Corporations. Sometimes the corporations want to do things that work against us. Do you really deny that?

And look how corporations work against us trying to keep unions out of their business. Unions represent labor.

This isn't some conspiracy theory. Its fact.

1797 (United States)
Profit sharing originated at Albert Gallatin's glass works in New Geneva, Pennsylvania.

Corporations didn't want to share.

3 July 1835 (United States)
Children employed in the silk mills in Paterson, New Jersey go on strike for the 11 hour day, 6 days a week.

July 1851 (United States)
Two railroad strikers are shot dead and others injured by the state militia in Portage, New York.

Timeline of labor issues and events - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[neurosport]

I'm kinda bored with the other threads right now, so I'd like to start a little debate over here in economics:

If you are a capitalist, please answer these questions:

Do you trust the market totally to regulate itself?

Are you wealthy?

If not, what are your chances of obtaining wealth, and how would you obtain that wealth?

If you are wealthy, how did you get there?

What would mean success for you in your own life?

i trust the market to regulate itself with respect to prices. in other words if the housing prices are falling then they need to fall.

i don't trust the market to regulate itself with respect to say POLLUTION. i also don't trust the market to consider LONG TERM national interests. nobody cares about profits realized after they're dead ! people want to make money in 2 - 3 years, 10 - 15 years tops. nobody will think 50 years ahead - that's the job of the government.

government has to INVEST into education of children, however it shouldn't MANAGE it. the role of government should be to FUND education. actual education should be private.

i am NOT wealthy. my chances of obtaining wealth are zero because i am not doing anything to obtain it.

success for me would be to have a 3-storey house in Brooklyn and a garage with a few brand new Italian cars in it.

 

[code1211]

That is one of the excuses/reasons they give. Doesn't mean I believe them. If you look at all the facts, it seems that they are lying and doing it so they can pay lower wages.

Let me ask you something. Do you believe Bush/Cheney invaded Iraq for richous reasons or for $? You can never prove they went in for money, but they sure made a lot of money.

And you right wingers always have answers. Not good ones, but you got answers.

You understand that democrats are just as bad as Republicans when it comes to bending over for corporations, but you refuse to admit that corporations are working against us. Isn't that having it both ways?

PS. So you have no articles/websites backing up what you are saying? Then I call bullshit. You can't, because you are making it up. I could be wrong. Prove me wrong.

Admitting at the outset that paranoia does not mean that they aren't out to get you, the highlighted statement is parnoid. "...working against us."? Ridiculous. Corporations don't work against us any more than does the wind or the sunlight. They do what they do because that is what defines them. They cannot do anything else than what they do. It is what they are. Corporations exist to make money, increase value and pay dividends. If they don't do these things, they cease to exist.

What happens outside of these things, whether it is a completed product for sale or a serious pollution problem is just a by product of what they do.

Corporations create wealth, and whatever product they manufacture is only the means to this end. They employ people and through this fund communities, schools, individuals, governments and everything else that drives a society.

Eliminate all of the corporations on the planet and you will find a pretty bleak outlook for the average guy.

We have seen internal memo's documents from Greenspan, CEO's and Republicans admitting they like a certain amount of unemployment because it helps keep wages low.

They don't work against us? Well when they want to set up shop outside the country to save money and then sell us their goods?

GE made their light bulb employees sign a pledge that they would only use energy saving lightbulbs. Only one problem with that. The energy saving bulb plant is in China. So they signed a pledge to put themselves out of work.

And some corporations purposely avoid hiring Americans and then seak out IT professionals from India who cost much less.

I understand why they do these things. That's their job. That is why government is supposed to work for us to not allow them to go too far. But instead they work with the corporations because the corp's pay them.

So I don't blame the corporation. They'll do whatever they can to maximize profits. I blame the politicians and the people that defend their every move. Its ok, until it affects you.

When I was much younger, I lived in Duluth Minnesota, home, at the time, to Jeno's Pizza. Jeno was a real person who owned a real factory the employed about 350 real people. The City Fathers of the city of Duluth needed some cash to build a sewer system and decided that Jeno's operation was a good place to get about 1/3 of the cash needed.

Jeno disagreed.

Duluth and Jeno argued for a while and, in the mean time, Jeno arrived at an agreement with the City Fathers of Wellston Ohio who not only would pay for thier own sewers, but would forgive property taxes into the future and in general give Jeno a much better deal.

Jeno moved his business to Wellston, Ohio and hired 350 Buckeyes while 350 Duluthians were put out of work. The Jeno's Pizza corporation had a place to make pizzas, employed 350 people and kept making pizzas. The only difference is that one govenment gained the benefit of this activity and another government lost that same benefit.

This is exactly how it works. Govenment creates no wealth. It only syphons it off of those entities that do create wealth. Whether the Jeno's of the world desert Duluth or the USA, they are doing what they do for reasons of self interest, just like every other thing on the planet. If you are suggesting that people should do things for reasons that do not contribute toward their own self interest, it is an enterprise doomed to failure.

This is why real world, regulated Capitalism works and real world bastadized Communism fails.

To the extent that self interest is served, that is the extent to which a societal system is self perpetuating.

 

[Oddball]

But Jeno still owns, like, half of the waterfront and Canal Park!!

 

[code1211]

That is one of the excuses/reasons they give. Doesn't mean I believe them. If you look at all the facts, it seems that they are lying and doing it so they can pay lower wages.

Let me ask you something. Do you believe Bush/Cheney invaded Iraq for richous reasons or for $? You can never prove they went in for money, but they sure made a lot of money.

And you right wingers always have answers. Not good ones, but you got answers.

You understand that democrats are just as bad as Republicans when it comes to bending over for corporations, but you refuse to admit that corporations are working against us. Isn't that having it both ways?

PS. So you have no articles/websites backing up what you are saying? Then I call bullshit. You can't, because you are making it up. I could be wrong. Prove me wrong.

Corporations create wealth, and whatever product they manufacture is only the means to this end. They employ people and through this fund communities, schools, individuals, governments and everything else that drives a society.

.

Governments provide a stable currency to make markets possible. They provide a legal infrastructure and court systems to enforce the contracts that make markets possible. They provide educated workforces through public education, and those workers show up at their places of business after traveling on public roads, rails, or airways provided by government. Businesses that use the "free market" are protected by police and fire departments provided by government, and send their communications - from phone to fax to internet - over lines that follow public rights-of-way maintained and protected by government.

When government sets the rules of the game of business in such a way that working people must receive a living wage, labor has the power to organize into unions just as capital can organize into corporations, and domestic industries are protected from overseas competition, a middle class will emerge. When government gives up these functions, the middle class vanishes and we return to the Dickens-era "normal" form of totally free market conservative economics where the rich get richer while the working poor are kept in a constant state of fear and anxiety so the cost of their labor will always be cheap.

Democracy - Not "The Free Market" - Will Save America's Middle Class

All of the elements of infrastructure that you cite are created by govenment, but are funded by the private enterprise of individuals.

The "rules of the game" as you put it are dependant on the game being played universally in whatever the "universe" is. When the whole world except the USA was undeveloped or in rubble after WW2, the rules you lay out made sense. When the whole world began to reawaken and the quirky little cars from Japan and Gemany suddenly turned into the preferred the choice based on Quality considerations alone, your pardigm falls apart.

The world changed and economically, the universe expanded.

By enacting the protectionist practices you recomend, we take a step back from the only solutions that will work. By recomending that we inflate the cost of our products through supported wage rates and make our products a lesser value for the market place buyers, you are, in effect, conceding the major market shares to off shore competion.

We are living in a 21st Century world which is by any definition a Globalized world. Denying reality is no way to gain real advantage in this world.

I don't recall the author who said, "Let us not look back in anger or forward with fear, but around with awarenes." Baldwin? Doesn't matter. Applying solutions based on no longer existant conditions is a recipe for certain failure. Using either or both anger or fear to plan your life is the usual starting point for this recipe.

 

[code1211]

That is one of the excuses/reasons they give. Doesn't mean I believe them. If you look at all the facts, it seems that they are lying and doing it so they can pay lower wages.

Let me ask you something. Do you believe Bush/Cheney invaded Iraq for richous reasons or for $? You can never prove they went in for money, but they sure made a lot of money.

And you right wingers always have answers. Not good ones, but you got answers.

You understand that democrats are just as bad as Republicans when it comes to bending over for corporations, but you refuse to admit that corporations are working against us. Isn't that having it both ways?

PS. So you have no articles/websites backing up what you are saying? Then I call bullshit. You can't, because you are making it up. I could be wrong. Prove me wrong.

. "...working against us."? Ridiculous. Corporations don't work against us any more than does the wind or the sunlight.
.

Quick question then. Why do unions come to be?

Activity by labor unions in the United States today centers on collective bargaining over wages, benefits, and working conditions for their membership and on representing their members if management attempts to violate contract provisions.

Unions lobby Congress and so do Corporations. Sometimes the corporations want to do things that work against us. Do you really deny that?

And look how corporations work against us trying to keep unions out of their business. Unions represent labor.

This isn't some conspiracy theory. Its fact.

1797 (United States)
Profit sharing originated at Albert Gallatin's glass works in New Geneva, Pennsylvania.

Corporations didn't want to share.

3 July 1835 (United States)
Children employed in the silk mills in Paterson, New Jersey go on strike for the 11 hour day, 6 days a week.

July 1851 (United States)
Two railroad strikers are shot dead and others injured by the state militia in Portage, New York.

Timeline of labor issues and events - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The role of unions in our history has been both a blessing and a curse as has any entity that is large and powerful. You could substitute any other large entity like Corporation or government and be just as right.

The role of the union today is an odd one, given the structure of corporations. In a post above, it was discussed how GE transferred work from the USA to China (?) in the manufacture of light bulbs. What did the union gain its workers who were laid off in favor of workers off shore who work for less?

In a real world example, Rand McNally, right here in the USA had too many manufacturing facilities and needed to cut back. They went to the union in each city and straight up told them that the worst labor terms reached would mean that the plant with those terms would be closed. Interesting approach, no? Now keep in mind that this could have been one agreement nationwide with extra pay for seniority or better breaks or vacations locally or different agreements altogether.

It doesn't matter.

The corporation, by virtue of its national holdings and excessive production capability, had a bargaining position that was impossible for the union to address here in Indianapolis. This city is the one in which the plant was closed.

It is only if the plant is tied to a certain local by natural resources or other unique geographic features that a union has much clout anymore. If not, a corporation can just pick up and move. Trade unions like the Boilermakers or Pipefitters still have clout due to regulatory considerations. The value of a job flows from the income it provides. People will move to the place where the job is or the people in the right location will learn to make the product that is produced in the area.

In today's world, the benefits negotiated by unions are conferred on everyone by governments that have accepted the support of unions. As a result, new employees are often hired through a temporary agency with no benefits, accruing no seniority and are discarded like yesterday's trash when the work load decreases.

Unions have made it too expensive to hire regular, full time workers. That is an unintended consequence, but it is real. Corporations will do what it takes to survive.

 

[code1211]

But Jeno still owns, like, half of the waterfront and Canal Park!!

And Gramma's is a nice place to drain a Long island Iced Tea. I usually visit Duluth during the first week of August to catch the summer.

Do you live up there?

 

[brewerboy]

I'm kinda bored with the other threads right now, so I'd like to start a little debate over here in economics:

If you are a capitalist, please answer these questions:

Do you trust the market totally to regulate itself?

Are you wealthy?

If not, what are your chances of obtaining wealth, and how would you obtain that wealth?

If you are wealthy, how did you get there?

What would mean success for you in your own life?

1. Not excatly.
2. I'd like your definition of "wealthy". If in this instance it means having extra money to throw around into the luxuries of life such as travel and eating out 2-3 times a week and crap like that, then my answer is a resounding NO.
3. I think that realisticly categorizing my chances of being wealthy is useless, theres no way to know.
3A. Hard work. I doubt I'll ever hit the $50,000 a year for life lotto ticket I buy on a weekly basis
4. Success to me at this point in my life revolves around my one month old son. If I can raise him to be a respectful person and a contributing member of society, I could die happy.

But having a mansion on a hill would be nice too

 

[Oddball]

[
And Gramma's is a nice place to drain a Long island Iced Tea. I usually visit Duluth during the first week of August to catch the summer.

Do you live up there?

I visit a few times a year, like you.

I've become progressively unimpressed with the entire Grandma's franchise....There are too many other great places in the city to hang and have a good time, for a lot less money.

 

[plt42]

I'm kinda bored with the other threads right now, so I'd like to start a little debate over here in economics:

If you are a capitalist, please answer these questions:

Do you trust the market totally to regulate itself?
As a capitalist, I trust that the market will regulate itself. History has shown this to be true.

Are you wealthy?
That's a realtive question... I live within my means, eat well, have a roof over my head, clothes on my back, and money in the bank.

If not, what are your chances of obtaining wealth, and how would you obtain that wealth? My chances of obtaining wealth are limited only by my imagination, willingness to take a chance, and dedication to hard work... those are also the "tools" of obtainng wealth. That is capitalism.

If you are wealthy, how did you get there? My relative wealth, or in my case my financial security, was obtained by planning and seizing opportunities.

What would mean success for you in your own life? To not be a burden on society and to be able to help others suceed and achieve by instilling in them the methods to do so.

That's pretty much it...capitalism at work.

 

[Paulie]

Do you trust the market totally to regulate itself?

No offense, but that's a stupid question. The market doesn't regulate itself. I'm not sure where you ever got the idea that it does.

Not only that, but why should it have to?

You are your own last line of defense. Nothing in life is perfect, why should business have to be? You win some, you lose some.

Educate yourself. You'll be amazed by the results, I promise.