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It is sad and shameful that people are actually here defending the legality of racism.
Do you prefer authoritarianism? Thought crime? Bad beliefs are covered by the same freedoms as good ones. Racism being legal doesn't mean it is good. It just means the government shouldn't be able to persecute people for what they believe. If the racists act on their racism, that's different.
It's easy to say that when you are white, but those of us who live with less freedom because of racism say racism is authoritarian.
It doesn't matter if someone is white, black, Asian, or some other race/ethnicity. The principle remains the same. I'm guessing the problem is that you are defining racism differently than I am; as actions rather than beliefs.
A threat is an action. Threatening someone absent racism is still, in some cases, a crime.
Racism itself is not illegal anywhere in the US that I know of. Anyone can be a bigot, but they cannot break the law in expressing or acting upon that bigotry.
But here is the problem.Do you prefer authoritarianism? Thought crime? Bad beliefs are covered by the same freedoms as good ones. Racism being legal doesn't mean it is good. It just means the government shouldn't be able to persecute people for what they believe. If the racists act on their racism, that's different.
It might be true that most racists aren't happy being "impotent" for long, but that's immaterial.The second half of your original comment not withstanding, what you're describing above is not quite the situation.Being a racist in America is not illegal, and if they're merely stating an opinion, and you are coming here freely to hear it, such as on this forum, I am thinking WA state would lose that battle in the Supreme Court. They're merely stating an opinion and they do not deserve to be harassed and punished by the federal gov't for it. That is in fact the definition of a First Amendment violation.
I have often stated here on U.S. Message Board that no one cares if a person is a racist unless and until they decide to put their racist beliefs into action and cause harm to another person. However many of the respondants erroneously believe that doing so is not a violation of any criminal code, althought I have cited an applicable USC which describes imprisonment as punishment for a violation of the specific law thereby indicating that the violation is of a criminal code.
As far as the Supreme Court, I'm assuming you're referring to the SCOTUS and not the WA State Supreme Court due to the freedom of speech protections in the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution? The WA State legislators addressed this when they drafted the statute so it is expected that it would survive any constitutional challenge, however posting personal opinions on a message board is not a Constitutional freedom of speech issue. Nor does participating in a message board mean that a poster must endure unwanted, vulgar, racist and/or bigoted comments or persistant contact from others.
Having racist beliefs and opinions alone of course is not actionable per se, but my experiences have been that most racists don't tolerate being impotent for very long. They can't stand and resent being muzzled and generally it's only a matter of time before they have to act out and they do, crossing right over into the very terrority that is outlined in the WA state harassment and other statutes.
I haven't read who initiated contact but the fact that the Sheriff has indicated that he wants this prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and the FBI is now involved indicates that they are looking at pursuing federal hate crime charges against the defendants as well as the WA state charges.
Irrespective of the wording of my article title & questions, the point is that certain behaviors are no longer tolerated in polite society. I'd imagine that 50 years from now, society looking back at our time will be dumbfounded that people behaved in such a manner, let alone that it was "barely" or "technically" legal.
Yes but what is "harm"? These days if I simply don't like your opinion people call that violence from which they need a safe space. It's ridiculous. They say this even if they have the freedom not to attend the speech or log into the forum. Even if the speech is repulsive, that's not harm. Unless you're counting that freedom of speech is harmed, then it is, I agree.
It might be true that most racists aren't happy being "impotent" for long, but that's immaterial. They have a right to their vile opinions. They even have a right to speak and write their vile opinions, much as I think they pollute the general air and I don't want to read them.
I don't want to turn into Europe where simply speaking or writing them is a hate crime.
Actually, that is the entire reason why some people think hate speech should be kept out of the public sphere.
Give them their heads and they'll be organizing and putting their adherents up for election and giving uninformed people lots of fake "facts" that sway their view of minorities in a negative light. That leads to more "below the surface" discrimination and the types of negative interactions that keep the race struggle active.
No one can stop someone from having an opinion and I don't think they should be punished for their ideas, but I am wholly in favor of kicking over their soapboxes. This country has taken the 1st Amendment too far and it is what is truly unravelling the civility of our country.
I hear you friend. I would not want to be living next door to a rabid racist, and I'm an old white guy.. Bad enough that I live across the street from a brain washed Trump boot licker.( who is married to a black woman who is also an immigrant -go figure )A threat is an action. Threatening someone absent racism is still, in some cases, a crime.
Racism itself is not illegal anywhere in the US that I know of. Anyone can be a bigot, but they cannot break the law in expressing or acting upon that bigotry.But here is the problem.Do you prefer authoritarianism? Thought crime? Bad beliefs are covered by the same freedoms as good ones. Racism being legal doesn't mean it is good. It just means the government shouldn't be able to persecute people for what they believe. If the racists act on their racism, that's different.
Yeah that's fine if you racist but won't act on it but you live on mars
But what do I do if you live next door to me ?
Knock. Knock Dylan Roof
It's like a snake saying "Yeah look. Yeah I've have these deadly fangs and toxin. Which can kill you in under 15 mins. But as long as I don't use it. You have no problem. So we can still kick it and chill. Right ?"
It might be true that most racists aren't happy being "impotent" for long, but that's immaterial.The second half of your original comment not withstanding, what you're describing above is not quite the situation.Being a racist in America is not illegal, and if they're merely stating an opinion, and you are coming here freely to hear it, such as on this forum, I am thinking WA state would lose that battle in the Supreme Court. They're merely stating an opinion and they do not deserve to be harassed and punished by the federal gov't for it. That is in fact the definition of a First Amendment violation.
I have often stated here on U.S. Message Board that no one cares if a person is a racist unless and until they decide to put their racist beliefs into action and cause harm to another person. However many of the respondants erroneously believe that doing so is not a violation of any criminal code, althought I have cited an applicable USC which describes imprisonment as punishment for a violation of the specific law thereby indicating that the violation is of a criminal code.
As far as the Supreme Court, I'm assuming you're referring to the SCOTUS and not the WA State Supreme Court due to the freedom of speech protections in the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution? The WA State legislators addressed this when they drafted the statute so it is expected that it would survive any constitutional challenge, however posting personal opinions on a message board is not a Constitutional freedom of speech issue. Nor does participating in a message board mean that a poster must endure unwanted, vulgar, racist and/or bigoted comments or persistant contact from others.
Having racist beliefs and opinions alone of course is not actionable per se, but my experiences have been that most racists don't tolerate being impotent for very long. They can't stand and resent being muzzled and generally it's only a matter of time before they have to act out and they do, crossing right over into the very terrority that is outlined in the WA state harassment and other statutes.
I haven't read who initiated contact but the fact that the Sheriff has indicated that he wants this prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and the FBI is now involved indicates that they are looking at pursuing federal hate crime charges against the defendants as well as the WA state charges.
Irrespective of the wording of my article title & questions, the point is that certain behaviors are no longer tolerated in polite society. I'd imagine that 50 years from now, society looking back at our time will be dumbfounded that people behaved in such a manner, let alone that it was "barely" or "technically" legal.
Yes but what is "harm"? These days if I simply don't like your opinion people call that violence from which they need a safe space. It's ridiculous. They say this even if they have the freedom not to attend the speech or log into the forum. Even if the speech is repulsive, that's not harm. Unless you're counting that freedom of speech is harmed, then it is, I agree.
It might be true that most racists aren't happy being "impotent" for long, but that's immaterial. They have a right to their vile opinions. They even have a right to speak and write their vile opinions, much as I think they pollute the general air and I don't want to read them.
I don't want to turn into Europe where simply speaking or writing them is a hate crime.
Actually, that is the entire reason why some people think hate speech should be kept out of the public sphere.
Give them their heads and they'll be organizing and putting their adherents up for election and giving uninformed people lots of fake "facts" that sway their view of minorities in a negative light. That leads to more "below the surface" discrimination and the types of negative interactions that keep the race struggle active.
No one can stop someone from having an opinion and I don't think they should be punished for their ideas, but I am wholly in favor of kicking over their soapboxes. This country has taken the 1st Amendment too far and it is what is truly unravelling the civility of our country.
Entirely unamerican.
And it always turns out to be abhorrent in the end.
I hear you friend. I would not want to be living next door to a rabid racist. Bad enough that I live across the street from a brain washed Trump boot licker. But realistically, how do you criminalize what is in a person's heart and mind? And don't forget there are people who would like to outlaw liberalism and progressivism too -and if they gained enough power we would be in deep shit.A threat is an action. Threatening someone absent racism is still, in some cases, a crime.
Racism itself is not illegal anywhere in the US that I know of. Anyone can be a bigot, but they cannot break the law in expressing or acting upon that bigotry.But here is the problem.Do you prefer authoritarianism? Thought crime? Bad beliefs are covered by the same freedoms as good ones. Racism being legal doesn't mean it is good. It just means the government shouldn't be able to persecute people for what they believe. If the racists act on their racism, that's different.
Yeah that's fine if you racist but won't act on it but you live on mars
But what do I do if you live next door to me ?
Knock. Knock Dylan Roof
It's like a snake saying "Yeah look. Yeah I've have these deadly fangs and toxin. Which can kill you in under 15 mins. But as long as I don't use it. You have no problem. So we can still kick it and chill. Right ?"
Another thought that I had is, if you suppress the expression of bigotry it does not go away. It just goes into the shadows, fester morphs into more virulent forms. Expose it to the light of day where it will wither in the sun like a vampire.
Interesting point: that a racist by his very existence can be perceived by minorities as a legitimate, tangible threat.I hear you friend. I would not want to be living next door to a rabid racist. Bad enough that I live across the street from a brain washed Trump boot licker. But realistically, how do you criminalize what is in a person's heart and mind? And don't forget there are people who would like to outlaw liberalism and progressivism too -and if they gained enough power we would be in deep shit.A threat is an action. Threatening someone absent racism is still, in some cases, a crime.
Racism itself is not illegal anywhere in the US that I know of. Anyone can be a bigot, but they cannot break the law in expressing or acting upon that bigotry.But here is the problem.Do you prefer authoritarianism? Thought crime? Bad beliefs are covered by the same freedoms as good ones. Racism being legal doesn't mean it is good. It just means the government shouldn't be able to persecute people for what they believe. If the racists act on their racism, that's different.
Yeah that's fine if you racist but won't act on it but you live on mars
But what do I do if you live next door to me ?
Knock. Knock Dylan Roof
It's like a snake saying "Yeah look. Yeah I've have these deadly fangs and toxin. Which can kill you in under 15 mins. But as long as I don't use it. You have no problem. So we can still kick it and chill. Right ?"
Another thought that I had is, if you suppress the expression of bigotry it does not go away. It just goes into the shadows, fester morphs into more virulent forms. Expose it to the light of day where it will wither in the sun like a vampire.
You are right but it still sucks to live under the loss of freedom racism provides to those who have to endure it. Racists have been in power in America since 1776. Exposing bigotry does not make it go away as we all see in forums like this.
Interesting point: that a racist by his very existence can be perceived by minorities as a legitimate, tangible threat.I hear you friend. I would not want to be living next door to a rabid racist. Bad enough that I live across the street from a brain washed Trump boot licker. But realistically, how do you criminalize what is in a person's heart and mind? And don't forget there are people who would like to outlaw liberalism and progressivism too -and if they gained enough power we would be in deep shit.A threat is an action. Threatening someone absent racism is still, in some cases, a crime.
Racism itself is not illegal anywhere in the US that I know of. Anyone can be a bigot, but they cannot break the law in expressing or acting upon that bigotry.But here is the problem.Do you prefer authoritarianism? Thought crime? Bad beliefs are covered by the same freedoms as good ones. Racism being legal doesn't mean it is good. It just means the government shouldn't be able to persecute people for what they believe. If the racists act on their racism, that's different.
Yeah that's fine if you racist but won't act on it but you live on mars
But what do I do if you live next door to me ?
Knock. Knock Dylan Roof
It's like a snake saying "Yeah look. Yeah I've have these deadly fangs and toxin. Which can kill you in under 15 mins. But as long as I don't use it. You have no problem. So we can still kick it and chill. Right ?"
Another thought that I had is, if you suppress the expression of bigotry it does not go away. It just goes into the shadows, fester morphs into more virulent forms. Expose it to the light of day where it will wither in the sun like a vampire.
You are right but it still sucks to live under the loss of freedom racism provides to those who have to endure it. Racists have been in power in America since 1776. Exposing bigotry does not make it go away as we all see in forums like this.
And you too are right. No easy answersI hear you friend. I would not want to be living next door to a rabid racist. Bad enough that I live across the street from a brain washed Trump boot licker. But realistically, how do you criminalize what is in a person's heart and mind? And don't forget there are people who would like to outlaw liberalism and progressivism too -and if they gained enough power we would be in deep shit.A threat is an action. Threatening someone absent racism is still, in some cases, a crime.
Racism itself is not illegal anywhere in the US that I know of. Anyone can be a bigot, but they cannot break the law in expressing or acting upon that bigotry.But here is the problem.Do you prefer authoritarianism? Thought crime? Bad beliefs are covered by the same freedoms as good ones. Racism being legal doesn't mean it is good. It just means the government shouldn't be able to persecute people for what they believe. If the racists act on their racism, that's different.
Yeah that's fine if you racist but won't act on it but you live on mars
But what do I do if you live next door to me ?
Knock. Knock Dylan Roof
It's like a snake saying "Yeah look. Yeah I've have these deadly fangs and toxin. Which can kill you in under 15 mins. But as long as I don't use it. You have no problem. So we can still kick it and chill. Right ?"
Another thought that I had is, if you suppress the expression of bigotry it does not go away. It just goes into the shadows, fester morphs into more virulent forms. Expose it to the light of day where it will wither in the sun like a vampire.
You are right but it still sucks to live under the loss of freedom racism provides to those who have to endure it. Racists have been in power in America since 1776. Exposing bigotry does not make it go away as we all see in forums like this.
Lying to achieve a certain end result for the purpose of causing inconvience, loss, anxiety, upset, annoyance, grievances, vexation , etc. to another human being is causing harm. All of those white people calling the police on black people who are not violating any laws and are doing nothing more than going about their lives are causing harm whether anyone wants to believe it or not. And this is a lot less innoculous than a group of skinheads verbally abusing and beating the crap out of a black guy, but it's insideousness is part of the problem. Most people will say, yeah that's fucked up but the person wasn't actually harmed. That is completely untrue because when certain things happen to black people it impacts us differently than when the same things happen to white people, such as contact with law enforcement, for an example.Yes but what is "harm"? These days if I simply don't like your opinion people call that violence from which they need a safe space. It's ridiculous. They say this even if they have the freedom not to attend the speech or log into the forum. Even if the speech is repulsive, that's not harm. Unless you're counting that freedom of speech is harmed, then it is, I agree.
Also that 242 years of creating and maintaining a white supremacist society was "taking action" for which they granted themselves immunity from prosecution.It does matter because racism cannot bother anyone unless it's acted on. So 242 years of creating and maintenance of a system based on racism of whites is a much larger problem than some black people don't like somebody white.
What's the purpose of a racist advising his targets of his racism? It's an implied threat.Interesting point: that a racist by his very existence can be perceived by minorities as a legitimate, tangible threat.
I just hope the woman at Walmart got their license plate. If I didn't accomplish anything else, I would have done my best to make sure I at least got that so that the clowns can be IDed. And never rely on the police to do the identification for you, because they won't.It might be true that most racists aren't happy being "impotent" for long, but that's immaterial.The second half of your original comment not withstanding, what you're describing above is not quite the situation.Being a racist in America is not illegal, and if they're merely stating an opinion, and you are coming here freely to hear it, such as on this forum, I am thinking WA state would lose that battle in the Supreme Court. They're merely stating an opinion and they do not deserve to be harassed and punished by the federal gov't for it. That is in fact the definition of a First Amendment violation.
I have often stated here on U.S. Message Board that no one cares if a person is a racist unless and until they decide to put their racist beliefs into action and cause harm to another person. However many of the respondants erroneously believe that doing so is not a violation of any criminal code, althought I have cited an applicable USC which describes imprisonment as punishment for a violation of the specific law thereby indicating that the violation is of a criminal code.
As far as the Supreme Court, I'm assuming you're referring to the SCOTUS and not the WA State Supreme Court due to the freedom of speech protections in the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution? The WA State legislators addressed this when they drafted the statute so it is expected that it would survive any constitutional challenge, however posting personal opinions on a message board is not a Constitutional freedom of speech issue. Nor does participating in a message board mean that a poster must endure unwanted, vulgar, racist and/or bigoted comments or persistant contact from others.
Having racist beliefs and opinions alone of course is not actionable per se, but my experiences have been that most racists don't tolerate being impotent for very long. They can't stand and resent being muzzled and generally it's only a matter of time before they have to act out and they do, crossing right over into the very terrority that is outlined in the WA state harassment and other statutes.
I haven't read who initiated contact but the fact that the Sheriff has indicated that he wants this prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and the FBI is now involved indicates that they are looking at pursuing federal hate crime charges against the defendants as well as the WA state charges.
Irrespective of the wording of my article title & questions, the point is that certain behaviors are no longer tolerated in polite society. I'd imagine that 50 years from now, society looking back at our time will be dumbfounded that people behaved in such a manner, let alone that it was "barely" or "technically" legal.
Yes but what is "harm"? These days if I simply don't like your opinion people call that violence from which they need a safe space. It's ridiculous. They say this even if they have the freedom not to attend the speech or log into the forum. Even if the speech is repulsive, that's not harm. Unless you're counting that freedom of speech is harmed, then it is, I agree.
It might be true that most racists aren't happy being "impotent" for long, but that's immaterial. They have a right to their vile opinions. They even have a right to speak and write their vile opinions, much as I think they pollute the general air and I don't want to read them.
I don't want to turn into Europe where simply speaking or writing them is a hate crime.
Actually, that is the entire reason why some people think hate speech should be kept out of the public sphere.
Give them their heads and they'll be organizing and putting their adherents up for election and giving uninformed people lots of fake "facts" that sway their view of minorities in a negative light. That leads to more "below the surface" discrimination and the types of negative interactions that keep the race struggle active.
No one can stop someone from having an opinion and I don't think they should be punished for their ideas, but I am wholly in favor of kicking over their soapboxes. This country has taken the 1st Amendment too far and it is what is truly unravelling the civility of our country.
Entirely unamerican.
And it always turns out to be abhorrent in the end.
This, on the other and s all too American
Manhunt launched after two white men attack black woman at Walmart for ‘no apparent reason’
and this
Repulsive video emerges of racist white teen’s lynching rant -- and it’s so abhorrent police are involved
Lying to achieve a certain end result for the purpose of causing inconvience, loss, anxiety, upset, annoyance, grievances, vexation , etc. to another human being is causing harm. All of those white people calling the police on black people who are not violating any laws and are doing nothing more than going about their lives are causing harm whether anyone wants to believe it or not. And this is a lot less innoculous than a group of skinheads verbally abusing and beating the crap out of a black guy, but it's insideousness is part of the problem. Most people will say, yeah that's fucked up but the person wasn't actually harmed. That is completely untrue because when certain things happen to black people it impacts us differently than when the same things happen to white people, such as contact with law enforcement, for an example.Yes but what is "harm"? These days if I simply don't like your opinion people call that violence from which they need a safe space. It's ridiculous. They say this even if they have the freedom not to attend the speech or log into the forum. Even if the speech is repulsive, that's not harm. Unless you're counting that freedom of speech is harmed, then it is, I agree.
There have been plenty of times when I attempted to report a crime to the police and not only did they refuse to allow me to lodge a complaint they spent a significant time investigating me instead of investigating my complaints and/or absolving the perpetrators. If you think having the police running interference with a crime victim's attempt to obtain justice isn't damaging, then you've obviously never had to deal with a situation of this nature and most definitely, not as a black person.
It is sad and shameful that people are actually here defending the legality of racism.
Do you prefer authoritarianism? Thought crime? Bad beliefs are covered by the same freedoms as good ones. Racism being legal doesn't mean it is good. It just means the government shouldn't be able to persecute people for what they believe. If the racists act on their racism, that's different.
It's easy to say that when you are white, but those of us who live with less freedom because of racism say racism is authoritarian.
It doesn't matter if someone is white, black, Asian, or some other race/ethnicity. The principle remains the same. I'm guessing the problem is that you are defining racism differently than I am; as actions rather than beliefs.
It does matter because racism cannot bother anyone unless it's acted on. So 242 years of creating and maintenance of a system based on racism of whites is a much larger problem than some black people don't like somebody white.
Freedom of Association.It is sad and shameful that people are actually here defending the legality of racism.
Do you prefer authoritarianism? Thought crime? Bad beliefs are covered by the same freedoms as good ones. Racism being legal doesn't mean it is good. It just means the government shouldn't be able to persecute people for what they believe. If the racists act on their racism, that's different.
It's easy to say that when you are white, but those of us who live with less freedom because of racism say racism is authoritarian.
It doesn't matter if someone is white, black, Asian, or some other race/ethnicity. The principle remains the same. I'm guessing the problem is that you are defining racism differently than I am; as actions rather than beliefs.
It does matter because racism cannot bother anyone unless it's acted on. So 242 years of creating and maintenance of a system based on racism of whites is a much larger problem than some black people don't like somebody white.
The question wasn't what is the larger problem of racism, but whether racism itself is, or should be, illegal.
the definition of racism/racist/etc definitely does not include malicious harassmentI have had several US Message Board members tell me that they can be as racist as they want and that being a racist is not illegal. I beg to differ as it would appear that the state of Washington has provided very clearly that malicious harassment which involves targeting anyone due to their actual or perceived race, color, ethnicity, religion, national original, etc. is punishable as a class c felony as well as civilly.Nothing in that article indicated it is illegal to be racist. I have no idea why you posted this OP with that title and this article.
The fact that the FBI is now involved didn't clue you all in?
