Food for though: What is democracy? What is freedom?

[freeandfun1]

Why do I waste my time? :

Originally posted by Man of 1951
Although i don't completely agree with William, i do not believe that our existence is a threat to them because we're free. The American government does fund Israel as if it's its own.

First off, the USA started HAVING to protect Israel in 1948 because the Palestinians would not abide by the UN as Israel did and form their own state. So they were attacked. The USA as part of the UN began supporting Israel at that time and it has continued since. It began as humanitarian and military equipment aid. In 1978 (plus or minus a year or two) Jimmy Carter signed the Camp David Peace Accords. In those accords the USA agreed to provide equal amounts of "financial aide" to BOTH Israel AND Egypt. Doh!

Originally posted by Man of 1951
And Israel does commit assassinations and many other actions condemned by the United Nations.

Israel has a right to protect themselves even if that means killing a few terrorist thugs either overtly or covertly then so be it. Who are you, me, or anybody else not living in their terror, to tell them what they can or cannot do to protect themselves!??!

Originally posted by Man of 1951 The American government has supported Saddam while he still oppressed his ppl, and allowed him to use mustard gas against Iranian soldiers.

So did most of Europe. Chirac sold Iraq the technology to build the nuke plants that Israel bombed (keeping Iraq from getting the bomb). Hell, France, Russia and Germany were doing business with Saddam right up until the US invaded. At least we are trying to make amends for our past mistakes. What is Europe doing? Nothing. They are upset they lost their sugar daddy!

BTW: I know you libs are short-minded, but don't forget that during the 80's there was this little thing going on called the Cold War. Sometimes we had to side with unsavory characters to achieve our goals of keeping the USSR at bay while pushing them further and further until they collapsed.

But you are too ignorant of history to understand such details or understand the stresses of the time I guess.

Originally posted by Man of 1951 The American government does support the Saudi regime which is just as bad or perhaps worse than Saddam's regime. Remember Saudi Arabia is lead by a Royal family, thus a monarchy thus a dictatorship.

Now I know you are just an ignorant fool. Comparing the Saudi Royal Family to Saddam's totalitarian rule is like. . . . well, just fucking stupid!

Originally posted by Man of 1951 The American government has used cluster bombs over Iraqi cities and others.

Over cities? Give me a break! Also remember, "war is hell".

Originally posted by Man of 1951 The American government has toppled many free nations,. . . .

Really? Name the free nations please!

Originally posted by Man of 1951 . . . .against the will of the ppl, to serve their interest. That causes hatred, not against the ideal of freedom, but causes hatred to the countries who commit the crimes.

WTF?

Originally posted by Man of 1951 I say American government, because it is they who make the decisions, i have no ill will at all toward the civilians.

Well, I am glad you hold no ill will to wards us "civilians"! Gee. Thanks!

Get a better understanding of history and then you probably won't hold any ill will to wards our government either - if you have 1 oz of intellectual honesty within you!

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by Man of 1951
Although i don't completely agree with William, i do not believe that our existance is a threat to them because we're free.

Of course it is. Our freedom, and the sight of it, threatens the control of tyrants. the very sight of freedom gives those living under tyranny hope. ANd hope is a powerful force.

Also, free economies grow, and are more robust. That's another threat to the power of the world's tyrants and their shrinking pathetic, top down, economies.

 

[MrMarbles]

For me, and some people i know, it's americas aggresive foreign policy. From the US view, they say they are spreading democracy and freedom, for everyone else in the world, it seems to be all about money.

Thats how I see it, and i'm sure someone is going to call me something bad for saying it.

 

[insein]

Originally posted by MrMarbles
For me, and some people i know, it's americas aggresive foreign policy. From the US view, they say they are spreading democracy and freedom, for everyone else in the world, it seems to be all about money.

Thats how I see it, and i'm sure someone is going to call me something bad for saying it.

No thats actually the simplest explanation of your views yet. Nothing blatantly false. Just your opinion on the situation. I can respect a person's opinion when they don't try to pass it off as FACT like some do here (cough cough psychoblues)

 

[Man of 1951]

To: freeandfun1's response to my post

Israel has a right to protect themselves even if that means killing a few terrorist thugs either overtly or covertly then so be it. Who are you, me, or anybody else not living in their terror, to tell them what they can or cannot do to protect themselves!??!

http://www.rafah.vze.com/
http://rafahtoday.org/details/demolitions.htm

Alright, ill try not to talk about israel cuz thats another huge deal but look at those photos ive attached. Who am I to tell Israel to stop destroying homes? Who am I to tell a nation that has recieved about 83 BILLION dollars from the US from 1949 to 1997 to stop destroying lives huh? You look at those pictures and picture living there. Come back from school, and have your home demolished? I'm not trying to be sensationalistic but come on, how demoralizing is it to destroy ppl's homes, and don't just say, oh that was a terrorists home, because thousands of homes of families of terrorists and innocents have been destroyed. Yeah right, who the fuck am I to tell them what they can or cannot do?

And by the way, when they assassinate, they assassinate with missiles, in open public places. PEOPLE DIE, innocents DIE, but right who cares right? just a bunch of palestinian kids right? Theres a damn reason why the UN has officially condemned so many of Israel's assassinations. But what a minute, who the fuck is the UN to condemn what Israel does?

So did most of Europe. Chirac sold Iraq the technology to build the nuke plants that Israel bombed (keeping Iraq from getting the bomb). Hell, France, Russia and Germany were doing business with Saddam right up until the US invaded. At least we are trying to make amends for our past mistakes. What is Europe doing? Nothing. They are upset they lost their sugar daddy!

Ohh so France did it, Germany did it, Russian did it, well why not you know? The whole world should give them money, everyone else is doing it.......The fact that others did it, does not mean it's OK to do it
Perhaps the US government has learned their mistakes, and they are correcting it by invading....but they should acknowledge what they did. They should acknowledge the fact that donald rumsfield met with Saddam the day the UN reported that Saddam was using chemical weapons against Iranians. They should acknowledge these things so that it wouldn't look so bad on their part. Europe pushed for diplomatic solutions, "war is hell" and one must do everything possible to avoid war, however when the UN CHIEF WEAPONS INSPECTOR Hans Blix doesn't believe war is necessary to disarm Iraq, who will you listen to? Hans Blix said it will not take weeks nor years to disarm iraq. (implying months) Therefore it means there was progress in the disarmment of Iraq, thus war was not necessary to disarm him. If freeing Iraq was the true nature of the war, i would have supported it if it was more multilateral through the UN.

As for Saudi Arabia, perhaps I overstated it, however Saudi Arabia is run by non-elected leaders and has a very bad tendancy to torture and force confessions out of innocents (if u watched 60 minutes a couple weeks ago or just go to any human rights website and search for saudi arabia.)

Over cities? Give me a break! Also remember, "war is hell".

That quote was regarding cluster bombs

Yes over cities, over urban areas. and what should i give you a break for? a lack of research before posting in a forum can often mean too much breaks are being given.
Yes war is hell, which i spoke about above, that doesn't mean anything to me, of course war is hell, so with your reasoning, because war is automatically hell, lets give them hell by using cluster bombs because they are more effective, although more dangerous towards ppl in the area....... the use of cluster bombs are condemned by most if not all human rights organizations and by the UN (if i remember correctly). Many limbs of children have been lost due to cluster bombs, I'll give you names, its up to you if u want to search their storey:
Ali Mustafa Hassan
Amer Mahmoud

"11 civilians, nine of them children, were killed in Hilla in central Iraq "http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0402-06.htm

"The use of cluster munitions in populated areas caused more civilian casualties than any other factor in the coalition´s conduct of major military operations in March and April, Human Rights Watch said. U.S. and British forces used almost 13,000 cluster munitions, containing nearly 2 million submunitions, that killed or wounded more than 1,000 civilians."http://hrw.org/press/2003/12/us-iraq-press.htm

Again yes it cities.........

quote:
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Originally posted by Man of 1951 The American government has toppled many free nations,. . . .
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Really? Name the free nations please!

Dont mind if i do:

WW2 Hiroshima and Nagasaki which is opinionated (based of fact) but i often understand the opposing view, but i stand firm on disagreeing with the decision to drop those bombs, but anyways

1953 coup: democratically elected prime minister of Iran, Mossedeq
1954 coup: democratically elected President Arbenz of Guatemala, thousands of civilians were killed
9/11---the first one, of 1973 coup: democratically elected president of Chile, Salvador Allede, dictator Augusto Pinochet installed, thousands killed
1977 US backs military rulers of El Salvador
1981 US trains and funds "contras" tens of thousands die
Hondura, Nicaragua--> the death squads and Battalion 316 which is one of the most disgusting things ive read about, it is an enormous tragedy.....

I'm afraid you should be careful critizing others of being ignorant to history. So again as i said before:

The American government has toppled many free nations, against the will of the ppl, to serve their interest. That causes hatred, not against the ideal of freedom, but causes hatred to the countries who commit the crimes.

Well, I am glad you hold no ill will to wards us "civilians"! Gee. Thanks!

Sorry i just had to say what i said so that you don't call me Anti-American, because I'm not, I'm Anti- US Governments' foreign policy. I do not have ill will towards the American government either, i just have a lot of mistrust towards the motives of their actions.

 

[MtnBiker]

Hmmm, Man of 1951, your post makes me think that you will not vote for Bush in november.

 

[Annie]

posted by self-proclaimed man of the year If freeing Iraq was the true nature of the war, i would have supported it if it was more multilateral through the UN.

And that should matter to any of us? Why?

 

[Man of 1951]

quote:
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posted by self-proclaimed man of the year If freeing Iraq was the true nature of the war, i would have supported it if it was more multilateral through the UN.
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And that should matter to any of us? Why?

hehe not self proclaimed, I'm actually refering to Mossedeq, who was the democratically elected Prime Minister, and as i said he was overthrown by the CIA in a coup in 1953, however he was Time magazines Man of the Year in 1951 because of his efforts to nationalize his countries assets, human rights and to end the imperialism that affected his country so much (Britain, Soviet Union, and later America). so not self proclaimed.....

I dont understand what ur refering to, are you refering to my opinion which i state, or are you refering to if it was multilateral through the UN and how that would affect anything. I can't respond to what you said if its my opinion cuz this a forum which is a medium to communicate opinion and fact. But if you're refering to the UN thingy heres my response:

If the UN were more involved and more countries were taking responsibility, it would actually look like liberation, but when the US goes to it alone (with a couple friends) it doesn't look the same, and that does matter in a war of winning the hearts and minds of the ppl. Also, if the UN were involved, everything would have been done more carefully, I doubt cluster bombs would have been used (because the UN condemns the us of them), the treatment of prisoners would have been under a sharper eye (my opinion) and the experience that the UN has with rebuilding nations, giving aid would come in handy with the rebuilding.
I think Iraq would have been a different place right now if the UN had been more involved, and it is my opinion that it would be a more positive place.

 

[Annie]

man o' year, sounds like a racehorse. Hey, are you American? Need to know.

 

[Man of 1951]

man o'year?? a race horse??
right.....hehe...........

how does it matter whether I'm an American or not?

 

[Annie]

quite a lot actually. Please just answer.

 

[Man of 1951]

i will answer

however please tell me why it is so important


now im watching the euro cup, reply, however i'll be able to respond later

GO GREECE!!!

hehe no im not greek

 

[Annie]

I'll just assume you're not American. Otherwise you would have spoken. That's the difference.

 

[Man of 1951]

well you assume to much, i can very well be american, but either way i don't see how it makes a difference.

GREECE WON!!!!

good game

 

[Annie]

Originally posted by Man of 1951
well you assume to much, i can very well be american, but either way i don't see how it makes a difference.

GREECE WON!!!!

good game

So, you're claiming to be American?

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Kathianne
So, you're claiming to be American?

He's just a canadian troll that was at the board awhile back and has returned. His IP address was identical to the infamous fat chick "Vyxen". Probably her boyfriend or husband. Poor bastard.

 

[Annie]

Originally posted by jimnyc
He's just a canadian troll that was at the board awhile back and has returned. His IP address was identical to the infamous fat chick "Vyxen". Probably her boyfriend or husband. Poor bastard.

LOL why did this seem likely?

 

[Man of 1951]

wow Jimnyc, nice to see you too

you know to this day i don't know why you've linked me to vyxen, but still don't know who the apparent she is. You've got to have serious computer or mental issues to think i know who that is, and i thought i explained that to you awhile back, but apparently you didn't quite get it.

Anyways, i still don't find how me being Canadian affects my arguement, please address the arguement not the person.

 

[MtnBiker]

Originally posted by Man of 1951


you know to this day i don't know why you've linked me to vyxen, but still don't know who the apparent she is. You've got to have serious computer or mental issues to think i know who that is,

I retrieve the same info that Jim sited on the IP addressess and my computer is working just fine.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Man of 1951
wow Jimnyc, nice to see you too

you know to this day i don't know why you've linked me to vyxen, but still don't know who the apparent she is. You've got to have serious computer or mental issues to think i know who that is, and i thought i explained that to you awhile back, but apparently you didn't quite get it.

Anyways, i still don't find how me being Canadian affects my arguement, please address the arguement not the person.

You don't know why I've linked you to Vyxen? Do you understand ANYTHING about technology? Do you know what an IP address is? That's your unique electronic fingerprint on the internet. Your IP and Vyxens were IDENTICAL, throughout every post and the registration process. So you're saying that you both registered from the same IP address and you both posted from the same IP address, but you have no clue who she is?

Deny all you like, but the truth is there. I saw her picture, I can't blame you for disowning her! LOL

And there is no ARGUMENT, I choose to no longer to debate with the likes of you. Your MO hasn't changed although you were gone for several months. You are here to bash the USA and get a rise out of the members here. Have at it, but I won't play your games. I'll just expose you to the regulars here and allow them to chew you up and spit you out.