Floyd verdict thread (moments away)

Slade3200

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I am not sure where you quote suggest that Felony Murder is only about charging co-conspiritors...it's not.

Then you ignored the example

Your citation:

Initially it was strictly applied, encompassing any death that occurred during the course of a felony, regardless of who caused it. Therefore, if a police officer attempting to stop a Robbery accidentally shot and killed an innocent passerby, the robber could be charged with murder.
Yep...co-conspiritors to the robbery could be charged with the felony murder as well.

I again fail to see how your quote proves your point or disproves mine? I never suggested a co-conspirator couldn't be charged. Some states however have put some limits, on that though.

But that's why off the mark of what we are talking about...we were discussing how assault couldn't be the felony used for felony murder, and that would merge, via the merger doctrine.

Chauvin was not charged with felony murder.

Felony murder came about as a solution to the "prisoners dilemma".

Imagine a gang assault where one gang member commits murder, but the only witnesses are the other gang members. If they all refuse to identify who did the killing, nobody gets charged with murder.

But under the felony murder statute, they don't need to know which gang member pulled the trigger, as they can all be charged with the murder.

Do you get it now?
Minn State for 2nd Degree, is their felony murder law. I provided the link.

I know what felony murder is, I just showed you over and over again what it was.

Under your hypo they wouldn't be charged with felony murder unless they were engaged in a different felony...like robbery. If it was just a murder, they could be charged with conspiracy to murder, or principals, but not felony murder unless they were engaged in a felony that didn't merge.

In Minn, under the Second Degree murder stat, if it was a drive by they could be charged however with 2nd degree murder.

Yes keep reading dude... This has been pointed out. Go to section 2 part 2

Subd. 2.Unintentional murders.

Whoever does either of the following is guilty of unintentional murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:


(1) causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting; or

(2) causes the death of a human being without intent to effect the death of any person, while intentionally inflicting or attempting to inflict bodily harm upon the victim, when the perpetrator is restrained under an order for protection and the victim is a person designated to receive protection under the order. As used in this clause, "order for protection" includes an order for protection issued under chapter 518B; a harassment restraining order issued under section 609.748; a court order setting conditions of pretrial release or conditions of a criminal sentence or juvenile court disposition; a restraining order issued in a marriage dissolution action; and any order issued by a court of another state or of the United States that is similar to any of these orders.
I did...the officer to my knowledge wasn't subject to a protective or restraining order against George. Do you have something to show us differently?
I’m not claiming that Floyd had a restraining order nor am I claiming that he needed to have one against the cop for the charge to apply. 2nd degree murder clearly can be applied to more cases than just victims of drive by shootings and those who have restraining orders against their offenders. The judge laid it out pretty clearly. If the Cop is believed to have intended to hurt Floyd outside what he was permitted to do within his job then that is assault and if that assault contributed to Floyd’s death then he is guilty of 2nd degree murder.
The law, and what you bold requires that he does for second degree.

It can only apply to what is in the Stat.

I don't disagree the judge read the law, judges always do, that doesn't mean juries don't get it wrong at times, hence why we have appeals and cases overturned
So in this case you think the judge explained the law incorrectly and the jury got it wrong and the 2nd degree charge will be overturned?
If the judge said what you posted, then yes....as I have linked the Minn Stat, that shows what you posted was incorrect.
You are half right. I sited the wrong section of the law. The second part I referenced was referring to a protective order. The first part is what I should have sited and that refers to unintentional death caused by the act of a felony which in this case would be assault which was clearly beyond the bounds of his duty’s given the circumstances of the situation as testified to by his police chief.
i addressed that...this is the state’s felony murder law. Under the felony murder rule the assault merges. So still wouldn’t apply, and thus should be over turned
The assault merges with what?
 

postman

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i addressed that...this is the state’s felony murder law. Under the felony murder rule the assault merges. So still wouldn’t apply, and thus should be over turned

You still confuse the "felony murder" rule, with a murder statute that's classed a felony.

Felony murder is a term of art for the rule, and has a specific legal meaning which you are trying to apply to 1st 2nd or 3rd degree murder. They have nothing to do with each other.

Please note:

Federal law classifies felony murder as first degree murder. It lists the felonies that can form the basis for a felony murder charge

Under this rule, people can be—and often are—convicted of first-degree murder in scenarios where a death is unintentional or is caused by another person, ...


And exampled by the Texas murder statutes


Sec. 19.02. MURDER.

(3) commits or attempts to commit a felony, other than manslaughter, and in the course of and in furtherance of the commission or attempt, or in immediate flight from the commission or attempt, he commits or attempts to commit an act clearly dangerous to human life that causes the death of an individual.
 

postman

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i addressed that...this is the state’s felony murder law. Under the felony murder rule the assault merges. So still wouldn’t apply, and thus should be over turned
The assault merges with what?

Clearly Minnesota does not use the "felony murder" rule, as it does not use the merger doctrine.

Merger doctrine
Under the merger doctrine as this term is used in criminal law, lesser included offenses generally merge into the greater offense. Therefore, a person who commits a robbery cannot be convicted of both the robbery and the larceny that was part of it.

Chauvin was convicted of 2nd degree murder, 3 degree murder, and 2nd degree manslaughter.

Under the merger doctrine the jury could only pick ONE. Which clearly wasn't the case.
 
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DrLove

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i addressed that...this is the state’s felony murder law. Under the felony murder rule the assault merges. So still wouldn’t apply, and thus should be over turned
The assault merges with what?

Clearly Minnesota does not use the "felony murder" rule, as it does not use the merger doctrine.

Merger doctrine
Under the merger doctrine as this term is used in criminal law, lesser included offenses generally merge into the greater offense. Therefore, a person who commits a robbery cannot be convicted of both the robbery and the larceny that was part of it.

Chauvin was convicted of 2nd degree murder, 3 degree murder, and 2nd degree manslaughter.

Under the merger doctrine the jury could only pick ONE. Which clearly wasn't the case.

Thanks for these clarifications. I found the actual charges to be confusing. For instance use of the word "unintentional" on the 2nd degree murder charge. It sure didn't look unintentional to me, but every state has its subtleties that have to be sorted through.
 

TheProgressivePatriot

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That has nothing to do with the fact that Floyd was murdered by Chauvin. NOTHING!


It estbalished the fact that he was a piece of sorry shit that you asshole dimit Libtards have treated like a saint. Shame on you! Pull your head out of your Libtard ass.
No one is treating him like a saint dipshit! He is being treated as a victim which he was. He has his problems and made some bad choices, but did he deserve to die? Don't be a coward. SAmswer the fucking question
 

TheProgressivePatriot

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TheProgressivePatriot

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Nothing good will come of this injustice to the police officer. The Negroes will expolit this stupid woke weakness as much as they can to get money and not be held accountable for their crimes. These pathetic weak White Guilt pukes will fall all over themselves kissing Black ass.
Why don't you and your friends just grab your Trump flags, and storm the Minnesota prison and free Chauvin.


Why don't you stupid Moon Bats pull your head out of your filthy Libtard asses?
You might be interested to know that the countries largest police union-The Fraternal Order of Police-issued a statement saying that the trial was fair

Statement of National FOP President on Verdict in Chauvin Trial - Fraternal Order of Police
Our system of justice has worked as it should, with the prosecutors and defense presenting their evidence to the jury, which then deliberated and delivered a verdict. The trial was fair and due process was served. We hope and expect that all of our fellow citizens will respect the rule of law and remain peaceful tonight and in the days to come.
What say you now?
 

Flash

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That has nothing to do with the fact that Floyd was murdered by Chauvin. NOTHING!


It estbalished the fact that he was a piece of sorry shit that you asshole dimit Libtards have treated like a saint. Shame on you! Pull your head out of your Libtard ass.
No one is treating him like a saint dipshit! He is being treated as a victim which he was. He has his problems and made some bad choices, but did he deserve to die? Don't be a coward. SAmswer the fucking question


Bullshit Moon Bat. The filthy piece of shit got a funeral that was more elaborate than what the Queen of England will get.

You shitheads are obsessed with the criminal sonofabitch and he was nothing but a lowlife druggie thug that deserved to be wasted.

If you Left Wing assholes want heroes then these police that protect your sorry asses from these Negroes thugs are much more deserving.

Pull your head out of your ass Moon Bat. You just embarrass yourself when you post your mindless hate.
 

TheProgressivePatriot

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That has nothing to do with the fact that Floyd was murdered by Chauvin. NOTHING!


It estbalished the fact that he was a piece of sorry shit that you asshole dimit Libtards have treated like a saint. Shame on you! Pull your head out of your Libtard ass.
No one is treating him like a saint dipshit! He is being treated as a victim which he was. He has his problems and made some bad choices, but did he deserve to die? Don't be a coward. SAmswer the fucking question


Bullshit Moon Bat. The filthy piece of shit got a funeral that was more elaborate than what the Queen of England will get.

You shitheads are obsessed with the criminal sonofabitch and he was nothing but a lowlife druggie thug that deserved to be wasted.

If you Left Wing assholes want heroes then these police that protect your sorry asses from these Negroes thugs are much more deserving.

Pull your head out of your ass Moon Bat. You just embarrass yourself when you post your mindless hate.
1619122169173.png
I embarrassed myslf? You keep showing everyone what a hateful and moronic crackpot you are. I might have to share the earth with people like you, but I thank the Gods and Goddesses every dat that I AM NOT YOU. And thank you for admitting that you think he deserved to die. You are a sick and demented fucker.

1619122416504.png
 

struth

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i addressed that...this is the state’s felony murder law. Under the felony murder rule the assault merges. So still wouldn’t apply, and thus should be over turned
The assault merges with what?

Clearly Minnesota does not use the "felony murder" rule, as it does not use the merger doctrine.

Merger doctrine
Under the merger doctrine as this term is used in criminal law, lesser included offenses generally merge into the greater offense. Therefore, a person who commits a robbery cannot be convicted of both the robbery and the larceny that was part of it.

Chauvin was convicted of 2nd degree murder, 3 degree murder, and 2nd degree manslaughter.

Under the merger doctrine the jury could only pick ONE. Which clearly wasn't the case.
The merger rule doesn't apply to merging the charges of 2nd, 3rd and manslaugter...

It deals with felony murder or the second degree murder stat in Minn. Where the felony of assault merges with the death and and therefore can be the felony used to convict of the felony murder.

Yes Minn does have felony murder, it's the second degree murder.
 

struth

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i addressed that...this is the state’s felony murder law. Under the felony murder rule the assault merges. So still wouldn’t apply, and thus should be over turned

You still confuse the "felony murder" rule, with a murder statute that's classed a felony.

Felony murder is a term of art for the rule, and has a specific legal meaning which you are trying to apply to 1st 2nd or 3rd degree murder. They have nothing to do with each other.

Please note:

Federal law classifies felony murder as first degree murder. It lists the felonies that can form the basis for a felony murder charge

Under this rule, people can be—and often are—convicted of first-degree murder in scenarios where a death is unintentional or is caused by another person, ...


And exampled by the Texas murder statutes


Sec. 19.02. MURDER.

(3) commits or attempts to commit a felony, other than manslaughter, and in the course of and in furtherance of the commission or attempt, or in immediate flight from the commission or attempt, he commits or attempts to commit an act clearly dangerous to human life that causes the death of an individual.
I am not confusing anything....Minn Stat for Second Degree murder is their felony murder law. Read the stat, as I posted over and over...

not sure why you are bringing in the Federal Code and Texas Code...each jurisdiction has a different Code for felony murder.

But as you can see, they are all similar.

The Feds call it First Degree, the state of Minn defines it as Second Degree.
 

struth

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I am not sure where you quote suggest that Felony Murder is only about charging co-conspiritors...it's not.

Then you ignored the example

Your citation:

Initially it was strictly applied, encompassing any death that occurred during the course of a felony, regardless of who caused it. Therefore, if a police officer attempting to stop a Robbery accidentally shot and killed an innocent passerby, the robber could be charged with murder.
Yep...co-conspiritors to the robbery could be charged with the felony murder as well.

I again fail to see how your quote proves your point or disproves mine? I never suggested a co-conspirator couldn't be charged. Some states however have put some limits, on that though.

But that's why off the mark of what we are talking about...we were discussing how assault couldn't be the felony used for felony murder, and that would merge, via the merger doctrine.

Chauvin was not charged with felony murder.

Felony murder came about as a solution to the "prisoners dilemma".

Imagine a gang assault where one gang member commits murder, but the only witnesses are the other gang members. If they all refuse to identify who did the killing, nobody gets charged with murder.

But under the felony murder statute, they don't need to know which gang member pulled the trigger, as they can all be charged with the murder.

Do you get it now?
Minn State for 2nd Degree, is their felony murder law. I provided the link.

I know what felony murder is, I just showed you over and over again what it was.

Under your hypo they wouldn't be charged with felony murder unless they were engaged in a different felony...like robbery. If it was just a murder, they could be charged with conspiracy to murder, or principals, but not felony murder unless they were engaged in a felony that didn't merge.

In Minn, under the Second Degree murder stat, if it was a drive by they could be charged however with 2nd degree murder.

Yes keep reading dude... This has been pointed out. Go to section 2 part 2

Subd. 2.Unintentional murders.

Whoever does either of the following is guilty of unintentional murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:


(1) causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting; or

(2) causes the death of a human being without intent to effect the death of any person, while intentionally inflicting or attempting to inflict bodily harm upon the victim, when the perpetrator is restrained under an order for protection and the victim is a person designated to receive protection under the order. As used in this clause, "order for protection" includes an order for protection issued under chapter 518B; a harassment restraining order issued under section 609.748; a court order setting conditions of pretrial release or conditions of a criminal sentence or juvenile court disposition; a restraining order issued in a marriage dissolution action; and any order issued by a court of another state or of the United States that is similar to any of these orders.
I did...the officer to my knowledge wasn't subject to a protective or restraining order against George. Do you have something to show us differently?
I’m not claiming that Floyd had a restraining order nor am I claiming that he needed to have one against the cop for the charge to apply. 2nd degree murder clearly can be applied to more cases than just victims of drive by shootings and those who have restraining orders against their offenders. The judge laid it out pretty clearly. If the Cop is believed to have intended to hurt Floyd outside what he was permitted to do within his job then that is assault and if that assault contributed to Floyd’s death then he is guilty of 2nd degree murder.
The law, and what you bold requires that he does for second degree.

It can only apply to what is in the Stat.

I don't disagree the judge read the law, judges always do, that doesn't mean juries don't get it wrong at times, hence why we have appeals and cases overturned
So in this case you think the judge explained the law incorrectly and the jury got it wrong and the 2nd degree charge will be overturned?
If the judge said what you posted, then yes....as I have linked the Minn Stat, that shows what you posted was incorrect.
You are half right. I sited the wrong section of the law. The second part I referenced was referring to a protective order. The first part is what I should have sited and that refers to unintentional death caused by the act of a felony which in this case would be assault which was clearly beyond the bounds of his duty’s given the circumstances of the situation as testified to by his police chief.
i addressed that...this is the state’s felony murder law. Under the felony murder rule the assault merges. So still wouldn’t apply, and thus should be over turned
The assault merges with what?
The death...thereby can't be the felony used to prove felony murder....because it is in fact the direct cause of the death.

Different then say a robbery...where the intent was never to kill, but due to the dangerous act, someone was killed, that intent to rob, can be used as the felony to convict of the unintented homicide....thus felony murder would apply.
 

Slade3200

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I am not sure where you quote suggest that Felony Murder is only about charging co-conspiritors...it's not.

Then you ignored the example

Your citation:

Initially it was strictly applied, encompassing any death that occurred during the course of a felony, regardless of who caused it. Therefore, if a police officer attempting to stop a Robbery accidentally shot and killed an innocent passerby, the robber could be charged with murder.
Yep...co-conspiritors to the robbery could be charged with the felony murder as well.

I again fail to see how your quote proves your point or disproves mine? I never suggested a co-conspirator couldn't be charged. Some states however have put some limits, on that though.

But that's why off the mark of what we are talking about...we were discussing how assault couldn't be the felony used for felony murder, and that would merge, via the merger doctrine.

Chauvin was not charged with felony murder.

Felony murder came about as a solution to the "prisoners dilemma".

Imagine a gang assault where one gang member commits murder, but the only witnesses are the other gang members. If they all refuse to identify who did the killing, nobody gets charged with murder.

But under the felony murder statute, they don't need to know which gang member pulled the trigger, as they can all be charged with the murder.

Do you get it now?
Minn State for 2nd Degree, is their felony murder law. I provided the link.

I know what felony murder is, I just showed you over and over again what it was.

Under your hypo they wouldn't be charged with felony murder unless they were engaged in a different felony...like robbery. If it was just a murder, they could be charged with conspiracy to murder, or principals, but not felony murder unless they were engaged in a felony that didn't merge.

In Minn, under the Second Degree murder stat, if it was a drive by they could be charged however with 2nd degree murder.

Yes keep reading dude... This has been pointed out. Go to section 2 part 2

Subd. 2.Unintentional murders.

Whoever does either of the following is guilty of unintentional murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:


(1) causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting; or

(2) causes the death of a human being without intent to effect the death of any person, while intentionally inflicting or attempting to inflict bodily harm upon the victim, when the perpetrator is restrained under an order for protection and the victim is a person designated to receive protection under the order. As used in this clause, "order for protection" includes an order for protection issued under chapter 518B; a harassment restraining order issued under section 609.748; a court order setting conditions of pretrial release or conditions of a criminal sentence or juvenile court disposition; a restraining order issued in a marriage dissolution action; and any order issued by a court of another state or of the United States that is similar to any of these orders.
I did...the officer to my knowledge wasn't subject to a protective or restraining order against George. Do you have something to show us differently?
I’m not claiming that Floyd had a restraining order nor am I claiming that he needed to have one against the cop for the charge to apply. 2nd degree murder clearly can be applied to more cases than just victims of drive by shootings and those who have restraining orders against their offenders. The judge laid it out pretty clearly. If the Cop is believed to have intended to hurt Floyd outside what he was permitted to do within his job then that is assault and if that assault contributed to Floyd’s death then he is guilty of 2nd degree murder.
The law, and what you bold requires that he does for second degree.

It can only apply to what is in the Stat.

I don't disagree the judge read the law, judges always do, that doesn't mean juries don't get it wrong at times, hence why we have appeals and cases overturned
So in this case you think the judge explained the law incorrectly and the jury got it wrong and the 2nd degree charge will be overturned?
If the judge said what you posted, then yes....as I have linked the Minn Stat, that shows what you posted was incorrect.
You are half right. I sited the wrong section of the law. The second part I referenced was referring to a protective order. The first part is what I should have sited and that refers to unintentional death caused by the act of a felony which in this case would be assault which was clearly beyond the bounds of his duty’s given the circumstances of the situation as testified to by his police chief.
i addressed that...this is the state’s felony murder law. Under the felony murder rule the assault merges. So still wouldn’t apply, and thus should be over turned
The assault merges with what?
The death...thereby can't be the felony used to prove felony murder....because it is in fact the direct cause of the death.

Different then say a robbery...where the intent was never to kill, but due to the dangerous act, someone was killed, that intent to rob, can be used as the felony to convict of the unintented homicide....thus felony murder would apply.
I’m not following your logic. The officer isn’t being charged with an intention to kill, that would be first degree. He was charged with second degree because he committed a felony assault by sitting on Floyd as he pled for his life and ended up dying. The cop intended to make Floyd suffer and it ended up killing him which is why he was charged with felony murder. What am I missing?
 

WEATHER53

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I accept the juries decision
It’s certainly obvious the pressure of the environment was the factor and that probably will be dealt with later.

I’m disheartened but certainly not going to Burn Loot Murder.
Because, I’m responsible for my actions and not governed by my feelings. I self sustain and prosper as do many I work with and a lot of you fucks want to strip that away. This kind of exhaulted thug crap is a step in that direction
Why are you disheartened?!
Just the mess of all of it. I take no Happiness from Floyd’s death. Bad scene with worse result. Now the legal stuff part one finished and maybe all of it.
 

struth

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I am not sure where you quote suggest that Felony Murder is only about charging co-conspiritors...it's not.

Then you ignored the example

Your citation:

Initially it was strictly applied, encompassing any death that occurred during the course of a felony, regardless of who caused it. Therefore, if a police officer attempting to stop a Robbery accidentally shot and killed an innocent passerby, the robber could be charged with murder.
Yep...co-conspiritors to the robbery could be charged with the felony murder as well.

I again fail to see how your quote proves your point or disproves mine? I never suggested a co-conspirator couldn't be charged. Some states however have put some limits, on that though.

But that's why off the mark of what we are talking about...we were discussing how assault couldn't be the felony used for felony murder, and that would merge, via the merger doctrine.

Chauvin was not charged with felony murder.

Felony murder came about as a solution to the "prisoners dilemma".

Imagine a gang assault where one gang member commits murder, but the only witnesses are the other gang members. If they all refuse to identify who did the killing, nobody gets charged with murder.

But under the felony murder statute, they don't need to know which gang member pulled the trigger, as they can all be charged with the murder.

Do you get it now?
Minn State for 2nd Degree, is their felony murder law. I provided the link.

I know what felony murder is, I just showed you over and over again what it was.

Under your hypo they wouldn't be charged with felony murder unless they were engaged in a different felony...like robbery. If it was just a murder, they could be charged with conspiracy to murder, or principals, but not felony murder unless they were engaged in a felony that didn't merge.

In Minn, under the Second Degree murder stat, if it was a drive by they could be charged however with 2nd degree murder.

Yes keep reading dude... This has been pointed out. Go to section 2 part 2

Subd. 2.Unintentional murders.

Whoever does either of the following is guilty of unintentional murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:


(1) causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting; or

(2) causes the death of a human being without intent to effect the death of any person, while intentionally inflicting or attempting to inflict bodily harm upon the victim, when the perpetrator is restrained under an order for protection and the victim is a person designated to receive protection under the order. As used in this clause, "order for protection" includes an order for protection issued under chapter 518B; a harassment restraining order issued under section 609.748; a court order setting conditions of pretrial release or conditions of a criminal sentence or juvenile court disposition; a restraining order issued in a marriage dissolution action; and any order issued by a court of another state or of the United States that is similar to any of these orders.
I did...the officer to my knowledge wasn't subject to a protective or restraining order against George. Do you have something to show us differently?
I’m not claiming that Floyd had a restraining order nor am I claiming that he needed to have one against the cop for the charge to apply. 2nd degree murder clearly can be applied to more cases than just victims of drive by shootings and those who have restraining orders against their offenders. The judge laid it out pretty clearly. If the Cop is believed to have intended to hurt Floyd outside what he was permitted to do within his job then that is assault and if that assault contributed to Floyd’s death then he is guilty of 2nd degree murder.
The law, and what you bold requires that he does for second degree.

It can only apply to what is in the Stat.

I don't disagree the judge read the law, judges always do, that doesn't mean juries don't get it wrong at times, hence why we have appeals and cases overturned
So in this case you think the judge explained the law incorrectly and the jury got it wrong and the 2nd degree charge will be overturned?
If the judge said what you posted, then yes....as I have linked the Minn Stat, that shows what you posted was incorrect.
You are half right. I sited the wrong section of the law. The second part I referenced was referring to a protective order. The first part is what I should have sited and that refers to unintentional death caused by the act of a felony which in this case would be assault which was clearly beyond the bounds of his duty’s given the circumstances of the situation as testified to by his police chief.
i addressed that...this is the state’s felony murder law. Under the felony murder rule the assault merges. So still wouldn’t apply, and thus should be over turned
The assault merges with what?
The death...thereby can't be the felony used to prove felony murder....because it is in fact the direct cause of the death.

Different then say a robbery...where the intent was never to kill, but due to the dangerous act, someone was killed, that intent to rob, can be used as the felony to convict of the unintented homicide....thus felony murder would apply.
I’m not following your logic. The officer isn’t being charged with an intention to kill, that would be first degree. He was charged with second degree because he committed a felony assault by sitting on Floyd as he pled for his life and ended up dying. The cop intended to make Floyd suffer and it ended up killing him which is why he was charged with felony murder. What am I missing?
I didn't say he was...

The felony assault would merge under the Felony murder merger rule...thoses making second degree not proper.
 

Slade3200

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I am not sure where you quote suggest that Felony Murder is only about charging co-conspiritors...it's not.

Then you ignored the example

Your citation:

Initially it was strictly applied, encompassing any death that occurred during the course of a felony, regardless of who caused it. Therefore, if a police officer attempting to stop a Robbery accidentally shot and killed an innocent passerby, the robber could be charged with murder.
Yep...co-conspiritors to the robbery could be charged with the felony murder as well.

I again fail to see how your quote proves your point or disproves mine? I never suggested a co-conspirator couldn't be charged. Some states however have put some limits, on that though.

But that's why off the mark of what we are talking about...we were discussing how assault couldn't be the felony used for felony murder, and that would merge, via the merger doctrine.

Chauvin was not charged with felony murder.

Felony murder came about as a solution to the "prisoners dilemma".

Imagine a gang assault where one gang member commits murder, but the only witnesses are the other gang members. If they all refuse to identify who did the killing, nobody gets charged with murder.

But under the felony murder statute, they don't need to know which gang member pulled the trigger, as they can all be charged with the murder.

Do you get it now?
Minn State for 2nd Degree, is their felony murder law. I provided the link.

I know what felony murder is, I just showed you over and over again what it was.

Under your hypo they wouldn't be charged with felony murder unless they were engaged in a different felony...like robbery. If it was just a murder, they could be charged with conspiracy to murder, or principals, but not felony murder unless they were engaged in a felony that didn't merge.

In Minn, under the Second Degree murder stat, if it was a drive by they could be charged however with 2nd degree murder.

Yes keep reading dude... This has been pointed out. Go to section 2 part 2

Subd. 2.Unintentional murders.

Whoever does either of the following is guilty of unintentional murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:


(1) causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting; or

(2) causes the death of a human being without intent to effect the death of any person, while intentionally inflicting or attempting to inflict bodily harm upon the victim, when the perpetrator is restrained under an order for protection and the victim is a person designated to receive protection under the order. As used in this clause, "order for protection" includes an order for protection issued under chapter 518B; a harassment restraining order issued under section 609.748; a court order setting conditions of pretrial release or conditions of a criminal sentence or juvenile court disposition; a restraining order issued in a marriage dissolution action; and any order issued by a court of another state or of the United States that is similar to any of these orders.
I did...the officer to my knowledge wasn't subject to a protective or restraining order against George. Do you have something to show us differently?
I’m not claiming that Floyd had a restraining order nor am I claiming that he needed to have one against the cop for the charge to apply. 2nd degree murder clearly can be applied to more cases than just victims of drive by shootings and those who have restraining orders against their offenders. The judge laid it out pretty clearly. If the Cop is believed to have intended to hurt Floyd outside what he was permitted to do within his job then that is assault and if that assault contributed to Floyd’s death then he is guilty of 2nd degree murder.
The law, and what you bold requires that he does for second degree.

It can only apply to what is in the Stat.

I don't disagree the judge read the law, judges always do, that doesn't mean juries don't get it wrong at times, hence why we have appeals and cases overturned
So in this case you think the judge explained the law incorrectly and the jury got it wrong and the 2nd degree charge will be overturned?
If the judge said what you posted, then yes....as I have linked the Minn Stat, that shows what you posted was incorrect.
You are half right. I sited the wrong section of the law. The second part I referenced was referring to a protective order. The first part is what I should have sited and that refers to unintentional death caused by the act of a felony which in this case would be assault which was clearly beyond the bounds of his duty’s given the circumstances of the situation as testified to by his police chief.
i addressed that...this is the state’s felony murder law. Under the felony murder rule the assault merges. So still wouldn’t apply, and thus should be over turned
The assault merges with what?
The death...thereby can't be the felony used to prove felony murder....because it is in fact the direct cause of the death.

Different then say a robbery...where the intent was never to kill, but due to the dangerous act, someone was killed, that intent to rob, can be used as the felony to convict of the unintented homicide....thus felony murder would apply.
I’m not following your logic. The officer isn’t being charged with an intention to kill, that would be first degree. He was charged with second degree because he committed a felony assault by sitting on Floyd as he pled for his life and ended up dying. The cop intended to make Floyd suffer and it ended up killing him which is why he was charged with felony murder. What am I missing?
I didn't say he was...

The felony assault would merge under the Felony murder merger rule...thoses making second degree not proper.
the felony assault would merge making two separate charges 1. assault and 2. 2nd degree murder not proper... the charge of Second degree murder would swallow the assault and it would fit the laws definition If the officer is believed to have unlawfully intended to inflict harm on Floyd which the jury found him guilty of.
 

struth

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I am not sure where you quote suggest that Felony Murder is only about charging co-conspiritors...it's not.

Then you ignored the example

Your citation:

Initially it was strictly applied, encompassing any death that occurred during the course of a felony, regardless of who caused it. Therefore, if a police officer attempting to stop a Robbery accidentally shot and killed an innocent passerby, the robber could be charged with murder.
Yep...co-conspiritors to the robbery could be charged with the felony murder as well.

I again fail to see how your quote proves your point or disproves mine? I never suggested a co-conspirator couldn't be charged. Some states however have put some limits, on that though.

But that's why off the mark of what we are talking about...we were discussing how assault couldn't be the felony used for felony murder, and that would merge, via the merger doctrine.

Chauvin was not charged with felony murder.

Felony murder came about as a solution to the "prisoners dilemma".

Imagine a gang assault where one gang member commits murder, but the only witnesses are the other gang members. If they all refuse to identify who did the killing, nobody gets charged with murder.

But under the felony murder statute, they don't need to know which gang member pulled the trigger, as they can all be charged with the murder.

Do you get it now?
Minn State for 2nd Degree, is their felony murder law. I provided the link.

I know what felony murder is, I just showed you over and over again what it was.

Under your hypo they wouldn't be charged with felony murder unless they were engaged in a different felony...like robbery. If it was just a murder, they could be charged with conspiracy to murder, or principals, but not felony murder unless they were engaged in a felony that didn't merge.

In Minn, under the Second Degree murder stat, if it was a drive by they could be charged however with 2nd degree murder.

Yes keep reading dude... This has been pointed out. Go to section 2 part 2

Subd. 2.Unintentional murders.

Whoever does either of the following is guilty of unintentional murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:


(1) causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting; or

(2) causes the death of a human being without intent to effect the death of any person, while intentionally inflicting or attempting to inflict bodily harm upon the victim, when the perpetrator is restrained under an order for protection and the victim is a person designated to receive protection under the order. As used in this clause, "order for protection" includes an order for protection issued under chapter 518B; a harassment restraining order issued under section 609.748; a court order setting conditions of pretrial release or conditions of a criminal sentence or juvenile court disposition; a restraining order issued in a marriage dissolution action; and any order issued by a court of another state or of the United States that is similar to any of these orders.
I did...the officer to my knowledge wasn't subject to a protective or restraining order against George. Do you have something to show us differently?
I’m not claiming that Floyd had a restraining order nor am I claiming that he needed to have one against the cop for the charge to apply. 2nd degree murder clearly can be applied to more cases than just victims of drive by shootings and those who have restraining orders against their offenders. The judge laid it out pretty clearly. If the Cop is believed to have intended to hurt Floyd outside what he was permitted to do within his job then that is assault and if that assault contributed to Floyd’s death then he is guilty of 2nd degree murder.
The law, and what you bold requires that he does for second degree.

It can only apply to what is in the Stat.

I don't disagree the judge read the law, judges always do, that doesn't mean juries don't get it wrong at times, hence why we have appeals and cases overturned
So in this case you think the judge explained the law incorrectly and the jury got it wrong and the 2nd degree charge will be overturned?
If the judge said what you posted, then yes....as I have linked the Minn Stat, that shows what you posted was incorrect.
You are half right. I sited the wrong section of the law. The second part I referenced was referring to a protective order. The first part is what I should have sited and that refers to unintentional death caused by the act of a felony which in this case would be assault which was clearly beyond the bounds of his duty’s given the circumstances of the situation as testified to by his police chief.
i addressed that...this is the state’s felony murder law. Under the felony murder rule the assault merges. So still wouldn’t apply, and thus should be over turned
The assault merges with what?
The death...thereby can't be the felony used to prove felony murder....because it is in fact the direct cause of the death.

Different then say a robbery...where the intent was never to kill, but due to the dangerous act, someone was killed, that intent to rob, can be used as the felony to convict of the unintented homicide....thus felony murder would apply.
I’m not following your logic. The officer isn’t being charged with an intention to kill, that would be first degree. He was charged with second degree because he committed a felony assault by sitting on Floyd as he pled for his life and ended up dying. The cop intended to make Floyd suffer and it ended up killing him which is why he was charged with felony murder. What am I missing?
I didn't say he was...

The felony assault would merge under the Felony murder merger rule...thoses making second degree not proper.
the felony assault would merge making two separate charges 1. assault and 2. 2nd degree murder not proper... the charge of Second degree murder would swallow the assault and it would fit the laws definition If the officer is believed to have unlawfully intended to inflict harm on Floyd which the jury found him guilty of.

No....I've posted this before and I'll do it again...https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Felony-Murder+Rule#:~:text=The%20felony%2Dmurder%20rule%20originated%20in%20England%20under%20the%20Common%20Law.&text=This%20is%20known%20as%20the,weapon%20are%20included%20in%20murder.

" Felony-urder cannot be charged if all the elements of the felony are included in the elements of murder. This is known as the merger doctrine, which holds that if the underlying felony merges with the killing, the felony cannot constitute felony-murder. For example, all of the elements of Assault and Battery with a deadly weapon are included in murder. If a killing, therefore, occurred during the course of this crime, the accused would be charged with murder. "
 

badger2

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#624: Are you schizo? You reify what you see but dismiss what cannot be seen, namely fentanyl asphyxia. The two types of asphyxia cannot be separated because they were synergistic in the same organism. Therefore, when Floyd lied about drugs, Chauvin had the right to use the knee, though unbeknownst to Chauvin, Floyd was in the process of committing suicide.
 

Slade3200

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I am not sure where you quote suggest that Felony Murder is only about charging co-conspiritors...it's not.

Then you ignored the example

Your citation:

Initially it was strictly applied, encompassing any death that occurred during the course of a felony, regardless of who caused it. Therefore, if a police officer attempting to stop a Robbery accidentally shot and killed an innocent passerby, the robber could be charged with murder.
Yep...co-conspiritors to the robbery could be charged with the felony murder as well.

I again fail to see how your quote proves your point or disproves mine? I never suggested a co-conspirator couldn't be charged. Some states however have put some limits, on that though.

But that's why off the mark of what we are talking about...we were discussing how assault couldn't be the felony used for felony murder, and that would merge, via the merger doctrine.

Chauvin was not charged with felony murder.

Felony murder came about as a solution to the "prisoners dilemma".

Imagine a gang assault where one gang member commits murder, but the only witnesses are the other gang members. If they all refuse to identify who did the killing, nobody gets charged with murder.

But under the felony murder statute, they don't need to know which gang member pulled the trigger, as they can all be charged with the murder.

Do you get it now?
Minn State for 2nd Degree, is their felony murder law. I provided the link.

I know what felony murder is, I just showed you over and over again what it was.

Under your hypo they wouldn't be charged with felony murder unless they were engaged in a different felony...like robbery. If it was just a murder, they could be charged with conspiracy to murder, or principals, but not felony murder unless they were engaged in a felony that didn't merge.

In Minn, under the Second Degree murder stat, if it was a drive by they could be charged however with 2nd degree murder.

Yes keep reading dude... This has been pointed out. Go to section 2 part 2

Subd. 2.Unintentional murders.

Whoever does either of the following is guilty of unintentional murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:


(1) causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting; or

(2) causes the death of a human being without intent to effect the death of any person, while intentionally inflicting or attempting to inflict bodily harm upon the victim, when the perpetrator is restrained under an order for protection and the victim is a person designated to receive protection under the order. As used in this clause, "order for protection" includes an order for protection issued under chapter 518B; a harassment restraining order issued under section 609.748; a court order setting conditions of pretrial release or conditions of a criminal sentence or juvenile court disposition; a restraining order issued in a marriage dissolution action; and any order issued by a court of another state or of the United States that is similar to any of these orders.
I did...the officer to my knowledge wasn't subject to a protective or restraining order against George. Do you have something to show us differently?
I’m not claiming that Floyd had a restraining order nor am I claiming that he needed to have one against the cop for the charge to apply. 2nd degree murder clearly can be applied to more cases than just victims of drive by shootings and those who have restraining orders against their offenders. The judge laid it out pretty clearly. If the Cop is believed to have intended to hurt Floyd outside what he was permitted to do within his job then that is assault and if that assault contributed to Floyd’s death then he is guilty of 2nd degree murder.
The law, and what you bold requires that he does for second degree.

It can only apply to what is in the Stat.

I don't disagree the judge read the law, judges always do, that doesn't mean juries don't get it wrong at times, hence why we have appeals and cases overturned
So in this case you think the judge explained the law incorrectly and the jury got it wrong and the 2nd degree charge will be overturned?
If the judge said what you posted, then yes....as I have linked the Minn Stat, that shows what you posted was incorrect.
You are half right. I sited the wrong section of the law. The second part I referenced was referring to a protective order. The first part is what I should have sited and that refers to unintentional death caused by the act of a felony which in this case would be assault which was clearly beyond the bounds of his duty’s given the circumstances of the situation as testified to by his police chief.
i addressed that...this is the state’s felony murder law. Under the felony murder rule the assault merges. So still wouldn’t apply, and thus should be over turned
The assault merges with what?
The death...thereby can't be the felony used to prove felony murder....because it is in fact the direct cause of the death.

Different then say a robbery...where the intent was never to kill, but due to the dangerous act, someone was killed, that intent to rob, can be used as the felony to convict of the unintented homicide....thus felony murder would apply.
I’m not following your logic. The officer isn’t being charged with an intention to kill, that would be first degree. He was charged with second degree because he committed a felony assault by sitting on Floyd as he pled for his life and ended up dying. The cop intended to make Floyd suffer and it ended up killing him which is why he was charged with felony murder. What am I missing?
I didn't say he was...

The felony assault would merge under the Felony murder merger rule...thoses making second degree not proper.
the felony assault would merge making two separate charges 1. assault and 2. 2nd degree murder not proper... the charge of Second degree murder would swallow the assault and it would fit the laws definition If the officer is believed to have unlawfully intended to inflict harm on Floyd which the jury found him guilty of.

No....I've posted this before and I'll do it again...https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Felony-Murder+Rule#:~:text=The%20felony%2Dmurder%20rule%20originated%20in%20England%20under%20the%20Common%20Law.&text=This%20is%20known%20as%20the,weapon%20are%20included%20in%20murder.

" Felony-urder cannot be charged if all the elements of the felony are included in the elements of murder. This is known as the merger doctrine, which holds that if the underlying felony merges with the killing, the felony cannot constitute felony-murder. For example, all of the elements of Assault and Battery with a deadly weapon are included in murder. If a killing, therefore, occurred during the course of this crime, the accused would be charged with murder. "
You’re example said it right there... “If a killing, therefore, occurred during the course of this crime, the accused would be charged with murder. " he was charged with murder
 

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