Florida Loses $2.4 Billion For High-Speed Trains

[Synthaholic]

Trading in my 85 Chevy truck for a Prius would spur some jobs, save me money on gas, and lessen my "carbon footprint".

But I can't afford the payments or afford to wait until the savings add up to a plus figure big enough to erase the investment.



Why is this so hard to grasp?


WE CAN'T AFFORD IT

The same argument could have made against Eisenhower's plan to develop our interstate highway system.

Bad arguement. It is the Feds responsibility to post roads per Article 1, section 8.

And it is the American taxpayer's responsibility to fund it and pay for it.

 

[Big Fitz]

The same argument could have made against Eisenhower's plan to develop our interstate highway system.

Bad arguement. It is the Feds responsibility to post roads per Article 1, section 8.

And it is the American taxpayer's responsibility to fund it and pay for it.

Does the federal government pay for the cars on the road? Why should it pay for the trains that operate on the rail, which are not roads, therefore not part of Article 1 section 8 by strict definition.

Sorry, this is a failure of equivalency.

 

[hortysir]

The same argument could have made against Eisenhower's plan to develop our interstate highway system.

Bad arguement. It is the Feds responsibility to post roads per Article 1, section 8.

And it is the American taxpayer's responsibility to fund it and pay for it.

See (again):
the difference between INTER and INTRA state

 

[Harry Dresden]

Hi speed rail only works for countries not occupied by murkins and The Chosen........like Chile ( peppers) France ( commies) Germany (drunks) Japan ( gooks). Places like that, with inferior populations.
Hi speed rail us completely un-murkin.
Take that money and buy Hummers.

thank you for leaving this Country asshole......i only hope you were man enough to renounce your citizenship.....

 

[The T]

Hi speed rail only works for countries not occupied by murkins and The Chosen........like Chile ( peppers) France ( commies) Germany (drunks) Japan ( gooks). Places like that, with inferior populations.
Hi speed rail us completely un-murkin.
Take that money and buy Hummers.

thank you for leaving this Country asshole......i only hope you were man enough to renounce your citizenship.....

And he can stay absent. And Go to JAIL if he ever decides to come back.

 

[The T]

Bad arguement. It is the Feds responsibility to post roads per Article 1, section 8.

And it is the American taxpayer's responsibility to fund it and pay for it.

Does the federal government pay for the cars on the road? Why should it pay for the trains that operate on the rail, which are not roads, therefore not part of Article 1 section 8 by strict definition.

Sorry, this is a failure of equivalency.

Don't confuse with facts...they only become unweildly and subject to fantasy.

 

[Synthaholic]

Bad arguement. It is the Feds responsibility to post roads per Article 1, section 8.

And it is the American taxpayer's responsibility to fund it and pay for it.

Does the federal government pay for the cars on the road? Why should it pay for the trains that operate on the rail, which are not roads, therefore not part of Article 1 section 8 by strict definition.

Sorry, this is a failure of equivalency.

No, I was complaining about teabaggers and wingnuts not wanting to pay for infrastructure.

 

[The T]

And it is the American taxpayer's responsibility to fund it and pay for it.

Does the federal government pay for the cars on the road? Why should it pay for the trains that operate on the rail, which are not roads, therefore not part of Article 1 section 8 by strict definition.

Sorry, this is a failure of equivalency.

No, I was complaining about teabaggers and wingnuts not wanting to pay for infrastructure.

The Infrastructure that Lies with RAILROADS is within the realm of the Individual Railroad...and their responsibility.

 

[Synthaholic]

Does the federal government pay for the cars on the road? Why should it pay for the trains that operate on the rail, which are not roads, therefore not part of Article 1 section 8 by strict definition.

Sorry, this is a failure of equivalency.

No, I was complaining about teabaggers and wingnuts not wanting to pay for infrastructure.

The Infrastructure that Lies with RAILROADS is within the realm of the Individual Railroad...and their responsibility.

Pay attention - the discussion drifted to roads.

 

[The T]

No, I was complaining about teabaggers and wingnuts not wanting to pay for infrastructure.

The Infrastructure that Lies with RAILROADS is within the realm of the Individual Railroad...and their responsibility.

Pay attention - the discussion drifted to roads.

And ROADS Govenment are responsible for under Article ONE, Section EIGHT...as I stated in this thread...

AND?

 

[Big Fitz]

And it is the American taxpayer's responsibility to fund it and pay for it.

Does the federal government pay for the cars on the road? Why should it pay for the trains that operate on the rail, which are not roads, therefore not part of Article 1 section 8 by strict definition.

Sorry, this is a failure of equivalency.

No, I was complaining about teabaggers and wingnuts not wanting to pay for infrastructure.

Railroads haven't been funded by the government since the great westward expansions ended in the beginning of the 1900's.

Government even then never paid directly for their building, offering instead incentives for work previously done. The reason for the incentive was because till connected to the opposite coast, there was little money to be made at the time either when there were no settlements of significance or developed resources to haul back. The towns followed the railroads 90% of the time, not the other way around. They were only paid after the fact for completed rail portions. That is also why the Central Pacific built into Nevada even though the Cape Horn pass and tunnel was not done. When it was done, they got a huge check for suddenly getting hundreds of miles of contiguous track AND it gained them control of line that the UP would have otherwise gained.

Lastly, railroads are all considered private property. Go walk on them and get caught by a cop You will be dinged for tresspassing on private property.

Roads and railroads are not equivalent. I'm all for building highways with federal dollars on the interstate system. All others need to be built by their individual state. That is an enumerated power. Railroads and airports? Nope. Not by the feds.

Please quit trying to blur the lines.

 

[The T]

Does the federal government pay for the cars on the road? Why should it pay for the trains that operate on the rail, which are not roads, therefore not part of Article 1 section 8 by strict definition.

Sorry, this is a failure of equivalency.

No, I was complaining about teabaggers and wingnuts not wanting to pay for infrastructure.

Railroads haven't been funded by the government since the great westward expansions ended in the beginning of the 1900's.

Government even then never paid directly for their building, offering instead incentives for work previously done. The reason for the incentive was because till connected to the opposite coast, there was little money to be made at the time either when there were no settlements of significance or developed resources to haul back. The towns followed the railroads 90% of the time, not the other way around. They were only paid after the fact for completed rail portions. That is also why the Central Pacific built into Nevada even though the Cape Horn pass and tunnel was not done. When it was done, they got a huge check for suddenly getting hundreds of miles of contiguous track AND it gained them control of line that the UP would have otherwise gained.

Lastly, railroads are all considered private property. Go walk on them and get caught by a cop You will be dinged for tresspassing on private property.

Roads and railroads are not equivalent. I'm all for building highways with federal dollars on the interstate system. All others need to be built by their individual state. That is an enumerated power. Railroads and airports? Nope. Not by the feds.

Please quit trying to blur the lines.

Indeed. The only thing that Government insured were the LAND GRANTS...the real estate that the Railroads were built upon...

 

[Big Fitz]

No, I was complaining about teabaggers and wingnuts not wanting to pay for infrastructure.

Railroads haven't been funded by the government since the great westward expansions ended in the beginning of the 1900's.

Government even then never paid directly for their building, offering instead incentives for work previously done. The reason for the incentive was because till connected to the opposite coast, there was little money to be made at the time either when there were no settlements of significance or developed resources to haul back. The towns followed the railroads 90% of the time, not the other way around. They were only paid after the fact for completed rail portions. That is also why the Central Pacific built into Nevada even though the Cape Horn pass and tunnel was not done. When it was done, they got a huge check for suddenly getting hundreds of miles of contiguous track AND it gained them control of line that the UP would have otherwise gained.

Lastly, railroads are all considered private property. Go walk on them and get caught by a cop You will be dinged for tresspassing on private property.

Roads and railroads are not equivalent. I'm all for building highways with federal dollars on the interstate system. All others need to be built by their individual state. That is an enumerated power. Railroads and airports? Nope. Not by the feds.

Please quit trying to blur the lines.

Indeed. The only thing that Government insured were the LAND GRANTS...the real estate that the Railroads were built upon...

No no... they did a little more than that. An alternating mile on either side of the track was also given to the railroads (The original request was 10 miles on BOTH sides), which they often sold for massive profits. They were also provided a small subsidy to assist with the costs of building the line based on contiguous working track miles and issued quarterly or yearly. Government surveyors were constantly coming out and checking the work.

You should read Stephen Ambrose "Nothing Like It On Earth" about the construction of the Transcontinental railroad. Fascinating book. He doesn't spend time focusing on the corruption and scandal, like the Credit Mobilier and the Oakes brothers. Nor the Big Four's manipulation of California business and politics. He focuses on the act and what it took to get the job done.

From Ted Judah to Abraham Lincoln's railroad law days to presidency, Brigham Young and the mormon work force in Utah, the record track laying effort done by han to the golden spike being driven in not by dignitaries but men who knew how to swing a sledgehammer.

I am a rail fan. A foamer really. It pains me to say that passenger rail is dead in it's current forms, but fact is fact. It just can't compete at this time.

 

[The T]

Railroads haven't been funded by the government since the great westward expansions ended in the beginning of the 1900's.

Government even then never paid directly for their building, offering instead incentives for work previously done. The reason for the incentive was because till connected to the opposite coast, there was little money to be made at the time either when there were no settlements of significance or developed resources to haul back. The towns followed the railroads 90% of the time, not the other way around. They were only paid after the fact for completed rail portions. That is also why the Central Pacific built into Nevada even though the Cape Horn pass and tunnel was not done. When it was done, they got a huge check for suddenly getting hundreds of miles of contiguous track AND it gained them control of line that the UP would have otherwise gained.

Lastly, railroads are all considered private property. Go walk on them and get caught by a cop You will be dinged for tresspassing on private property.

Roads and railroads are not equivalent. I'm all for building highways with federal dollars on the interstate system. All others need to be built by their individual state. That is an enumerated power. Railroads and airports? Nope. Not by the feds.

Please quit trying to blur the lines.

Indeed. The only thing that Government insured were the LAND GRANTS...the real estate that the Railroads were built upon...

No no... they did a little more than that. An alternating mile on either side of the track was also given to the railroads (The original request was 10 miles on BOTH sides), which they often sold for massive profits. They were also provided a small subsidy to assist with the costs of building the line based on contiguous working track miles and issued quarterly or yearly. Government surveyors were constantly coming out and checking the work.

You should read Stephen Ambrose "Nothing Like It On Earth" about the construction of the Transcontinental railroad. Fascinating book. He doesn't spend time focusing on the corruption and scandal, like the Credit Mobilier and the Oakes brothers. Nor the Big Four's manipulation of California business and politics. He focuses on the act and what it took to get the job done.

From Ted Judah to Abraham Lincoln's railroad law days to presidency, Brigham Young and the mormon work force in Utah, the record track laying effort done by han to the golden spike being driven in not by dignitaries but men who knew how to swing a sledgehammer.

I am a rail fan. A foamer really. It pains me to say that passenger rail is dead in it's current forms, but fact is fact. It just can't compete at this time.

*concur* and oversight.

And So am I a Railfan.

 

[Big Fitz]

Indeed. The only thing that Government insured were the LAND GRANTS...the real estate that the Railroads were built upon...

No no... they did a little more than that. An alternating mile on either side of the track was also given to the railroads (The original request was 10 miles on BOTH sides), which they often sold for massive profits. They were also provided a small subsidy to assist with the costs of building the line based on contiguous working track miles and issued quarterly or yearly. Government surveyors were constantly coming out and checking the work.

You should read Stephen Ambrose "Nothing Like It On Earth" about the construction of the Transcontinental railroad. Fascinating book. He doesn't spend time focusing on the corruption and scandal, like the Credit Mobilier and the Oakes brothers. Nor the Big Four's manipulation of California business and politics. He focuses on the act and what it took to get the job done.

From Ted Judah to Abraham Lincoln's railroad law days to presidency, Brigham Young and the mormon work force in Utah, the record track laying effort done by han to the golden spike being driven in not by dignitaries but men who knew how to swing a sledgehammer.

I am a rail fan. A foamer really. It pains me to say that passenger rail is dead in it's current forms, but fact is fact. It just can't compete at this time.

*concur* and oversight.

And So am I a Railfan.

Explains why you knew what the U-Boats were.

BTW, Here. Whet your fiction appetite.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/FOAMERS-Novel-Suspense-Jon-Berson/dp/B000H2NAOO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300509162&sr=8-1]Amazon.com: FOAMERS: A Novel of Suspense: Jon Berson: Books[/ame]

I have it in hard cover. Excellent read for a first time suspense author. Neat premise.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Florida Loses $2.4 Billion For High-Speed Trains

The project, which would have connected Tampa and Orlando with high-speed trains, was rejected by Florida Gov. Rick Scott, a Republican. He said he didn't want to obligate the state to pay for what could be expensive operating costs for the line.

However, the Florida Department of Transportation on Wednesday released a study showing the line connecting Tampa to Orlando would have had an operating surplus in 2015, its first year of operation.

This is what happens when you have a governor who runs the state like businessman and a very bad one at that, instead of like a politician. There would have been job creation in this but Repugs never promised job creation in their campaigns did they? Its clear they don't fucking care.

High speed rail, light rail and other transportation schemes do not work. First, cost over runs in construction are inevitable. Then there are the opertaing costs which are NEVER covered by the fares collected. All mass transit is eventually subsidized by additional taxes. AMTRAK loses....no BLEEDS money every fiscal year. This is subsidized by vehicle fuel taxes which are supposed to go toward road construction and repair. Instead, the money is stolen to pay for pet projects in districts held by powerful legislators.
Obama promised $50 billion for HSR....HUH? At $100 million per mile that gets you a ride you could spit farther.
Example....Charlotte, NC built a 10 mile light rail train. The cost ONE BILLION DOLLARS....Or $100 million per mile.
Jobs? Please. Just more government employment and union thuggery. Not on our watch.
BTW, the governors of both New York and New Jersey will be sending the government on their way same as Florida. Nobody wants this shit because the states will get stuck with the cost of finishing and then operating the trains at a huge loss.
I like rail travel. I am fascinated by it. I wish there were an efficient and convenient way to travel by rail. However, as with anything government does, it is expensive and inefficient. And of course loaded with bureaucracy and red tape.
We have enough to worry about without involving ourselves in building a rail system which few will use and all will have to absorb the costs.

 

[thereisnospoon]

No fucking proof just all talk, shut the fuck up.

From my POV I would not be packing up my car going to find a parking lot to pay for, getting on a train at what ever cost, getting on a train getting off finding and loading a cab to go to a resort when I can do it for less money and in less time less hassle by my own car.
Thats not proof, but it is the fact and you can multiply that by 2 million for the people in my community we may live in florida but we aint stupid.

Great. More rail for us in California. I'd much rather travel by train than drive from SF to LA or San Diego. Having traveled throughtout Europe on rail I look forward to the day one can travel from downtown Sacramento or San Francisco to downtown LA without the hassle of gridlock on freeways, $5 a gallon gas and the wear on tires, engine and transmission.
Instead of sitting behind the wheel I can sit and have a meal, read a book, surf the web or play a game of chess; have a cold one in the bar, meet new people and share information on places to go and things to do.
Building rail will provide jobs, long term and permanent, and save oil by moving people and products around our nation lowering consumer costs; anyone who shops for grocery's or any other product knows that the spike in fuel prices raises the cost of everything transported.

Ok..Planing routes for rights of way, buying expensive real estate, environmental concerns. lawsuits, NIMBY's, designing locomotives/cars, traversing roadways, prohibition of at grade crossings. Then there is construction. Construction delays, cost over runs, union strikes, bureaucracy....Do you see where we're going here.
Rail works great if there is a way to get people t their destinations and each destination is within walking distance or has a local transit link. Rail is useless for leisure travel where people need to travel to destinations far from the rail stations. That means one must load their luggage into a car, drive to the train station( in most cities train stations are in the worst crime ridden areas of town) unload luggage then ride the train. They then must load their luggage into another auto and go to their destination. This process must be repeated again for the return trip. If one drives, they load twice and unload twice. If they ride the train they unload and load 8 times. What do they do in the event of inclement weather?
Look, we have air travel which is cheaper than trains and much faster. And one must do the same thing. Unload and load luggage several times. Given the choice, people will fly. Even though it is a hassle.
Trains? Great idea in theory. In practice, not so good.

 

[The T]

No no... they did a little more than that. An alternating mile on either side of the track was also given to the railroads (The original request was 10 miles on BOTH sides), which they often sold for massive profits. They were also provided a small subsidy to assist with the costs of building the line based on contiguous working track miles and issued quarterly or yearly. Government surveyors were constantly coming out and checking the work.

You should read Stephen Ambrose "Nothing Like It On Earth" about the construction of the Transcontinental railroad. Fascinating book. He doesn't spend time focusing on the corruption and scandal, like the Credit Mobilier and the Oakes brothers. Nor the Big Four's manipulation of California business and politics. He focuses on the act and what it took to get the job done.

From Ted Judah to Abraham Lincoln's railroad law days to presidency, Brigham Young and the mormon work force in Utah, the record track laying effort done by han to the golden spike being driven in not by dignitaries but men who knew how to swing a sledgehammer.

I am a rail fan. A foamer really. It pains me to say that passenger rail is dead in it's current forms, but fact is fact. It just can't compete at this time.

*concur* and oversight.

And So am I a Railfan.

Explains why you knew what the U-Boats were.

BTW, Here. Whet your fiction appetite.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/FOAMERS-Novel-Suspense-Jon-Berson/dp/B000H2NAOO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300509162&sr=8-1"]Amazon.com: FOAMERS: A Novel of Suspense: Jon Berson: Books[/ame]

I have it in hard cover. Excellent read for a first time suspense author. Neat premise.

*ORDERED*...

And as a note?

My Favourite "U-BOAT" Of all time that's Silver bell that resided in front of the windshield now resides in a glass case in the CSX Building Lobby In Downtown Jacksonville, Florida?

The Spirit Of 1776, Seboard Coast Line, U33B...this Picture in Barstow, California in a Joint Bicentennial project with the Santa Fe...I saw that Locomotive lead many a train through JAX as a teen...

(Photo Courtesy of RailPictures.net)

 

[thereisnospoon]

Oh yea, "high speed trains" are evidence of "usurpation of LIBERTY". I forgot that part. Seems I left my "looniness" at home. Thanks for bringing yours.

it is when there's NO market for it, and TAXPAYERS will ultimately be forced to pay for something they will never USE unless forced to.

Right...gotcha'. Keep up the fight Deany-Bub...

and how the fuck will they be forced to dumb drunk?
All of a sudden is the world market on oil going to go, HAHAH i know what we can do, We can raise prices in oil and force people to ride trains! Yeah we are evil!

You are a stupid fuck.

The trains will need to be subsidized. That means those who do not use the trains will have their taxes increased, whether it be fuel taxes, property taxes or local sales taxes. All of which by the way are done in New York to subsidize the fares paid by subway riders as well as Metro- North commuter trains.
SO you see, no one is actually forced to use the trains, they are simply forced to pay for them through additional taxation.
Tell ya what, you can have your trains. Just as long as the riders pay the full cost of using them.
User fees instead of taxes.

 

[The T]

it is when there's NO market for it, and TAXPAYERS will ultimately be forced to pay for something they will never USE unless forced to.

Right...gotcha'. Keep up the fight Deany-Bub...

and how the fuck will they be forced to dumb drunk?
All of a sudden is the world market on oil going to go, HAHAH i know what we can do, We can raise prices in oil and force people to ride trains! Yeah we are evil!

You are a stupid fuck.

The trains will need to be subsidized. That means those who do not use the trains will have their taxes increased, whether it be fuel taxes, property taxes or local sales taxes. All of which by the way are done in New York to subsidize the fares paid by subway riders as well as Metro- North commuter trains.
SO you see, no one is actually forced to use the trains, they are simply forced to pay for them through additional taxation.
Tell ya what, you can have your trains. Just as long as the riders pay the full cost of using them.
User fees instead of taxes.

Indeed.