Flavors of the end

[Kondor3]

It seems everything I write, you tell me you expected it. Go on, tell me again. Though I have to say, as a fortune teller, you would be better telling me what I am about to say than telling me that you had foresawn what I just did. In other words: You're a fake, Kondor.

Sit down, Junior - no point in taxing your talents beyond their limits.

 

[Kondor3]

Looks like someone pinched your nerve

 

[Beelzebub]

It seems everything I write, you tell me you expected it. Go on, tell me again. Though I have to say, as a fortune teller, you would be better telling me what I am about to say than telling me that you had foresawn what I just did. In other words: You're a fake, Kondor.

Sit down, Junior - no point in taxing your talents beyond their limits.

Ah. Kondor. That has no meaning. None. Whatsoever.
You're done.

 

[Kondor3]

It seems everything I write, you tell me you expected it. Go on, tell me again. Though I have to say, as a fortune teller, you would be better telling me what I am about to say than telling me that you had foresawn what I just did. In other words: You're a fake, Kondor.

Sit down, Junior - no point in taxing your talents beyond their limits.

Ah. Kondor. That has no meaning. None. Whatsoever.
You're done.

Yes, yes, yes... very nice, I'm sure.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Good post, thanks.

We can debate about the conclusions Mr.Bahour made based on the his point of view - this is a very interesting video and I personally recommend it for everyone.
The very first conclusion - more of a title - is the idea that everything is about to end, but he put it very well.
1.Israel cannot win.
2.The Palestinians cannot lose.
I do agree about these points, but they indicate the complete opposite - they indicate the necessarily steps each side is taking, and that without a game changer its going to last for eternity while in the meantime both sides losing and both sides cannot win - Israel with the upper hand to dictate the terms and the Palestinians with a toothpick.

The game is changing. The Palestinians are gaining a lot of popular support around the world and even some governments are growing tired of Israel. We are seeing things now that could not have happened a decade ago.

The Palestinian position start by automatically ascribing the WB for example to the Palestinians rather than Jordanians or Israelis based on mistakes made in the past, however, the whole idea of military occupation just circle another who-came-first debate (the chicken or the egg?) - the paradox cannot apply in the conflict.

There is some confusion (created by Israel) about the West Bank. Part of Palestine became occupied by Jordan by the 1949 armistice agreement. This part became known as the West Bank. It was occupied Palestinian territory. Jordan attempted to annex the West bank but it is illegal to annex occupied territory. The West Bank, de jure, was never part of Jordan. When Israel occupied the West Bank in 1967 it was still Palestinian territory. That is why it is called occupied Palestinian territory.

This is why without a one sided step taken by Israel - the one dictating the terms - no solution can ever be made, the Palestinians are not in a position to demand but they keep demanding and probably will never be satisfied, Israel on the other hand dragged this far too long when the responsibility to keep the order and security of the Palestinians - failed (also keep them from themselves).

Indeed, Israel is the only one who can stop its war. And the Palestinians are getting more aggressive with their demands. And their demands are sounding more reasonable to the world community. At some point in time Israel will seriously want to make peace.

I Wish the conflict could have simply end, but the Palestinian position is trying to force Israel into the same position hoping things would end up differently, and the Palestinians - reasonably - think about themselves, but they can't be surprised we don't.

 

[toastman]

Good post, thanks.

We can debate about the conclusions Mr.Bahour made based on the his point of view - this is a very interesting video and I personally recommend it for everyone.
The very first conclusion - more of a title - is the idea that everything is about to end, but he put it very well.
1.Israel cannot win.
2.The Palestinians cannot lose.
I do agree about these points, but they indicate the complete opposite - they indicate the necessarily steps each side is taking, and that without a game changer its going to last for eternity while in the meantime both sides losing and both sides cannot win - Israel with the upper hand to dictate the terms and the Palestinians with a toothpick.

The game is changing. The Palestinians are gaining a lot of popular support around the world and even some governments are growing tired of Israel. We are seeing things now that could not have happened a decade ago.

The Palestinian position start by automatically ascribing the WB for example to the Palestinians rather than Jordanians or Israelis based on mistakes made in the past, however, the whole idea of military occupation just circle another who-came-first debate (the chicken or the egg?) - the paradox cannot apply in the conflict.

There is some confusion (created by Israel) about the West Bank. Part of Palestine became occupied by Jordan by the 1949 armistice agreement. This part became known as the West Bank. It was occupied Palestinian territory. Jordan attempted to annex the West bank but it is illegal to annex occupied territory. The West Bank, de jure, was never part of Jordan. When Israel occupied the West Bank in 1967 it was still Palestinian territory. That is why it is called occupied Palestinian territory.

This is why without a one sided step taken by Israel - the one dictating the terms - no solution can ever be made, the Palestinians are not in a position to demand but they keep demanding and probably will never be satisfied, Israel on the other hand dragged this far too long when the responsibility to keep the order and security of the Palestinians - failed (also keep them from themselves).

Indeed, Israel is the only one who can stop its war. And the Palestinians are getting more aggressive with their demands. And their demands are sounding more reasonable to the world community. At some point in time Israel will seriously want to make peace.

I Wish the conflict could have simply end, but the Palestinian position is trying to force Israel into the same position hoping things would end up differently, and the Palestinians - reasonably - think about themselves, but they can't be surprised we don't.

The West Bank may or may not have been Palestinian territory in 1967, but there certainly was not a Palestine then.

"The game is changing. The Palestinians are gaining a lot of popular support around the world and even some governments are growing tired of Israel. We are seeing things now that could not have happened a decade ago."

Let us know whenever any of this has any sort of major effect.....

 

[Beelzebub]

Interesting discussion on the end of the conflict.

Thanks PFT.
A well considered and presented perspective. This is well worth sharing far and wide, especially to anyone with an interest in resolving the occupation of the Palestine state.

More enlightened Israelis or Zionists might also have an interest, as it describes their possible futures too. Whether they like that or not.

 

[Challenger]

I'm not going to invest 50 minutes of my life watching this.

Gimme the Cliffs' Notes or Readers Digest Condensed Edition version.

What are the salient points that the video is trying to make?

They were discussing some avenues to peace.

Nothing that would interest you.

Nice comeback.

Really.

But, you actually and really do need to provide the Cliff's Notes summary of such things, in order to 'hook' folks, and convince them to dig deeper.

Your heart is certainly committed to the Palestinian cause but you have a very, very long way to go, when it comes to marketing long videos that you want people to pay attention to.

Gotta pique their interest, before you can get 'em to dig deeper.

Then again, maybe it's best for the Israeli cause, if you remain at your current deficient level of marketing acumen.

Forget I said anything.

There we have it, Hasbara 101 from a paid Zionist shill.

 

[Kondor3]

There we have it, Hasbara 101 from a paid Zionist shill.

And here I thought that Hasbro made toys... hmmmm... ya learn sumfin' new every day.

Meanwhile... what could you possibly object to, in challenging someone (from the opposing side, no less!) to do a better job of marketing their materials?

A challenge that included a little for-fun taunting at the end, in order to stimulate the lazy marketeer, to do a better job in engaging the audience, next time?

You're so into your pro-Palestinian Online Propaganda Jihadist persona that you can't even recognize a mischievous departure from the norm that was actually designed to elicit a better yield in the presentation of materials to the audience.

So, mimicking your own unthinking automatic gainsay (above)...

"There we have it. Pallywood 101 from a paid Hamas shill."

There - now we both feel better.

Given that the original post in this sequence was actually designed to...

1. obtain a summary of the salient points being attempted and...

2. give the OP a badly-needed clue that the vast majority of people are not going to sink 50-60 minutes into watching each and every propaganda video that Side A or Side B decides to vomit-up...

It is a lazy and ineffective habit of his.

My original in this sequence was much closer to neutral and audience-friendly (regarding both the current video and any of the dozens of future ones that our colleague is likely to belch-up without elaboration, based on past performance) than your knee-jerk reaction makes allowance for...

Next time, look, and think, before you belch-up something foolish and out-of-synch with what is actually happening, eh?

Unless you, too, believe that serving-up 50-60 minute -long videos, with no elaboration or accompanying commentary or narrative to intrigue the viewer and to cause him or her to desire to dig further - is actually an effective marketing technique.

However, given that you pretty much stand in the pro-Palestinian camp, and given that they are the ultimate defining example of Ineffective Losers, perhaps you, too, believe that serving-up videos in such a fashion, is a desirable approach, in order to get your points across.

The pro-Israeli side must certainly hope that there are a great many more 'Media Marketing Experts' such as our colleague - and, perhaps, even yourself? - serving-up materials that nobody can be bothered to examine - mostly for want of an understanding of how to draw the audience in.

Tee-hee.

Any other brilliant observations to share with the class, in this particular exchange, of a knee-jerk jinogoistic nature - or are we done yet?

 

[Challenger]

There we have it, Hasbara 101 from a paid Zionist shill.

And here I thought that Hasbro made toys... hmmmm... ya learn sumfin' new every day.

Meanwhile... what could you possibly object to, in challenging someone (from the opposing side, no less!) to do a better job of marketing their materials?

A challenge that included a little for-fun taunting at the end, in order to stimulate the lazy marketeer, to do a better job in engaging the audience, next time?

You're so into your pro-Palestinian Online Propaganda Jihadist persona that you can't even recognize a mischievous departure from the norm that was actually designed to elicit a better yield in the presentation of materials to the audience.

So, mimicking your own unthinking automatic gainsay (above)...

"There we have it. Pallywood 101 from a paid Hamas shill."

There - now we both feel better.

Given that the original post in this sequence was actually designed to...

1. obtain a summary of the salient points being attempted and...

2. give the OP a badly-needed clue that the vast majority of people are not going to sink 50-60 minutes into watching each and every propaganda video that Side A or Side B decides to vomit-up...

It is a lazy and ineffective habit of his.

My original in this sequence was much closer to neutral and audience-friendly (regarding both the current video and any of the dozens of future ones that our colleague is likely to belch-up without elaboration, based on past performance) than your knee-jerk reaction makes allowance for...

Next time, look, and think, before you belch-up something foolish and out-of-synch with what is actually happening, eh?

Unless you, too, believe that serving-up 50-60 minute -long videos, with no elaboration or accompanying commentary or narrative to intrigue the viewer and to cause him or her to desire to dig further - is actually an effective marketing technique.

However, given that you pretty much stand in the pro-Palestinian camp, and given that they are the ultimate defining example of Ineffective Losers, perhaps you, too, believe that serving-up videos in such a fashion, is a desirable approach, in order to get your points across.

The pro-Israeli side must certainly hope that there are a great many more 'Media Marketing Experts' such as our colleague - and, perhaps, even yourself? - serving-up materials that nobody can be bothered to examine - mostly for want of an understanding of how to draw the audience in.

Tee-hee.

Any other brilliant observations to share with the class, in this particular exchange, of a knee-jerk jinogoistic nature - or are we done yet?

“The superior man understands what is right; the inferior man understands what will sell.”-- Confucius

 

[Kondor3]

...“The superior man understands what is right; the inferior man understands what will sell.”-- Confucius

In the (locally) famous words of the great Chicago Cubs player, Ernie Banks...

"Let's play TWO !!!"

Why not be right AND be able to SELL it?

Or is the prospect of both reinforcing a position AND properly marketing it just a wee bit too much for some brain-boxes to contend with?

In the US, if your automobile is passing through an intersection on a green light, and someone coming from the opposite direction makes a left turn across your path, and you collide, and you die in the resulting crash...

Legally speaking, with respect to traffic law...

You're definitely in the RIGHT...

You're also DEAD...

"Simply being right is oftentimes inadequate to the task at hand, without giving voice or effect or action to that state of affairs." - Kondor

Until you-and-yours learn and master that lesson, you will continue to under-perform in your propaganda quest, and you will continue to be outclassed...

By several orders of magnitude.

============================

"Thus endeth the lesson." - Sean Connery's character in The Untouchables.

All part of the friendly service - no extra charge.

 

[Challenger]

...“The superior man understands what is right; the inferior man understands what will sell.”-- Confucius

In the (locally) famous words of the great Chicago Cubs player, Ernie Banks...

"Let's play TWO !!!"

Why not be right AND be able to SELL it?

Or is the prospect of both reinforcing a position AND properly marketing it just a wee bit too much for some brain-boxes to contend with?

In the US, if your automobile is passing through an intersection on a green light, and someone coming from the opposite direction makes a left turn across your path, and you collide, and you die in the resulting crash...

Legally speaking, with respect to traffic law...

You're definitely in the RIGHT...

You're also DEAD...

"Simply being right is oftentimes inadequate to the task at hand, without giving voice or effect or action to that state of affairs." - Kondor

Until you-and-yours learn and master that lesson, you will continue to under-perform in your propaganda quest, and you will continue to be outclassed...

By several orders of magnitude.

============================

"Thus endeth the lesson." - Sean Connery's character in The Untouchables.

All part of the friendly service - no extra charge.

At least you admit WE are right

 

[Challenger]

...“The superior man understands what is right; the inferior man understands what will sell.”-- Confucius

In the (locally) famous words of the great Chicago Cubs player, Ernie Banks...

"Let's play TWO !!!"

Why not be right AND be able to SELL it?

Or is the prospect of both reinforcing a position AND properly marketing it just a wee bit too much for some brain-boxes to contend with?

In the US, if your automobile is passing through an intersection on a green light, and someone coming from the opposite direction makes a left turn across your path, and you collide, and you die in the resulting crash...

Legally speaking, with respect to traffic law...

You're definitely in the RIGHT...

You're also DEAD...

"Simply being right is oftentimes inadequate to the task at hand, without giving voice or effect or action to that state of affairs." - Kondor

Until you-and-yours learn and master that lesson, you will continue to under-perform in your propaganda quest, and you will continue to be outclassed...

By several orders of magnitude.

============================

"Thus endeth the lesson." - Sean Connery's character in The Untouchables.

All part of the friendly service - no extra charge.

To use your car analogy, a slick car salesman, master of his selling skills can sell you a lemon or you can do you own research, look up the car you want, find it's faults and benefits and make up your own mind. Which is the better way of buying a car?

 

[Kondor3]

...At least you admit WE are right

Not even close, in truth, but for argument's sake, it was a fun exercise - why not try to be both right and effective with the message, eh?

 

[Kondor3]

...To use your car analogy, a slick car salesman, master of his selling skills can sell you a lemon or you can do you own research, look up the car you want, find it's faults and benefits and make up your own mind. Which is the better way of buying a car?

Yeppers... but if you fail to prime the pump...

If you fail to attract and engage people sufficiently, to look at your stuff, then, the best stuff in the world lies untouched, and, in reality, ends up doing you no good, after all, yes?

You may think I'm as wrong as wrong can be, about a lot of things, but you know that I'm right about this ('marketing' of [attracting people to] materials), don't you?

Just say 'yes' and get it over with. the pain will pass momentarily...

 

[Challenger]

...To use your car analogy, a slick car salesman, master of his selling skills can sell you a lemon or you can do you own research, look up the car you want, find it's faults and benefits and make up your own mind. Which is the better way of buying a car?

Yeppers... but if you fail to prime the pump...

If you fail to attract and engage people sufficiently, to look at your stuff, then, the best stuff in the world lies untouched, and, in reality, ends up doing you no good, after all, yes?

You may think I'm as wrong as wrong can be, about a lot of things, but you know that I'm right about this ('marketing' of [attracting people to] materials), don't you?

Just say 'yes' and get it over with. the pain will pass momentarily...

Sorry, I prefer factual substance over marketing style, so do many, many, more people who are prepared to think for themselves.

 

[Challenger]

Interesting discussion on the end of the conflict.

Nice video, having finished watching it, I think he presented his case well. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Kondor3]

...To use your car analogy, a slick car salesman, master of his selling skills can sell you a lemon or you can do you own research, look up the car you want, find it's faults and benefits and make up your own mind. Which is the better way of buying a car?

Yeppers... but if you fail to prime the pump...

If you fail to attract and engage people sufficiently, to look at your stuff, then, the best stuff in the world lies untouched, and, in reality, ends up doing you no good, after all, yes?

You may think I'm as wrong as wrong can be, about a lot of things, but you know that I'm right about this ('marketing' of [attracting people to] materials), don't you?

Just say 'yes' and get it over with. the pain will pass momentarily...

Sorry, I prefer factual substance over marketing style, so do many, many, more people who are prepared to think for themselves.

When you are conducting Online Advocacy - as our colleague is - you are obliged to pay good attention to both, in order to maximize your effectiveness, and that of your materials.

Factual substance and marketing competency are not mutually exclusive.

As a matter of fact, they are highly complementary, in an Advocacy context, and downright necessary, in order to maximize one's effectiveness in an Advocacy role.

I'm right in this... you know it... I know it... everybody else capable of objectively analyzing such things knows it...

But I find it modestly intriguing and revealing that you can't bring yourself to say the simple words: "Yeah, I suppose you're right about that one."

I don't really need that, but it would have been more credible, to concede an obvious point, even with an adversary, in a harmless neutral context.

Oh, well... every window of opportunity must close, at some point... and the ROI on this has evaporated.

 

[Challenger]

As a matter of fact, they are highly complementary, in an Advocacy context, and downright necessary, in order to maximize one's effectiveness in an Advocacy role.

There. You hit the nail right on the head. It's all about Advocacy. An Advocate doesn't care about substance, fact or truth, just what he or she needs to promote their client's case. The so called "pro-Israel" mob even run courses and fellowships to train their "advocates" to promote whatever their masters tell them to promote and many get well paid for doing so, like these:

Hasbara Fellowships - Homepage
Advocates for Israel - Home Page

I can't ascribe motive to PF Tinmore, but for my part I've looked into the conflict off my own back, searched out what is objectively or substantively truth and fact as I see it. I'm more than willing to be proved wong, but not by any slick presentation by an advocate. Give me substance over style any day of the week, otherwise, you can talk to the hand, I won't be listening.

 

[Kondor3]

As a matter of fact, they are highly complementary, in an Advocacy context, and downright necessary, in order to maximize one's effectiveness in an Advocacy role.

There. You hit the nail right on the head. It's all about Advocacy. An Advocate doesn't care about substance, fact or truth, just what he or she needs to promote their client's case. The so called "pro-Israel" mob even run courses and fellowships to train their "advocates" to promote whatever their masters tell them to promote and many get well paid for doing so, like these:

Hasbara Fellowships - Homepage
Advocates for Israel - Home Page

I can't ascribe motive to PF Tinmore, but for my part I've looked into the conflict off my own back, searched out what is objectively or substantively truth and fact as I see it. I'm more than willing to be proved wong, but not by any slick presentation by an advocate. Give me substance over style any day of the week, otherwise, you can talk to the hand, I won't be listening.

Most folks who routinely engage in debate over the Israeli-Palestinian conflict end-up 'advocating' for their side over time - something that you are every bit as aware of as I am.

And, when you are attempting to get folks to view materials - and when those materials require a considerable investment in time (and a 50-60 minute -long video certainly qualifies, in our drive-by context here) - it is nothing more then common sense, to serve-up a summary or a teaser, designed to attract viewers, and to get them to dig-in and learn more.

Your preference for substance is both correct and laudable.

Your incredulity related to the marketing (creating a desire to dig further into a particular piece) is mystifying.

Then again, if you're not doing the heavy lifting - serving-up the materials for review by others - disdain for effective packaging is more easily sustainable.