Fighting for MY Freedoms?

[Sunni Man]

They are very lucky that we are not like them.

What would they say if we said "GOD WILLS IT", and killed all of them refusing to convert?

The abuses of Radical Islam are everywhere to be seen. Unless you live under a Rock.

Sounds really scary!!

 

[eagle1462010]

BBC NEWS | Africa | Stoning victim 'begged for mercy'

A young woman recently stoned to death in Somalia first pleaded for her life, a witness has told the BBC.
"Don't kill me, don't kill me," she said, according to the man who wanted to remain anonymous. A few minutes later, more than 50 men threw stones.
Human rights group Amnesty International says the victim was a 13-year-old girl who had been raped.
Initial reports had said she was a 23-year-old woman who had confessed to adultery before a Sharia court.
Numerous eye-witnesses say she was forced into a hole, buried up to her neck then pelted with stones until she died in front of more than 1,000 people last week.
Meanwhile, Islamists in the capital, Mogadishu have carried out a public flogging.

Islamists are becoming increasingly open in the capital, Mogadishu
Mogadishu is nominally under the control of government forces and their Ethiopian allies, who face frequent attacks by Islamist and nationalist insurgents.
The BBC's Mohammed Olad Hassan in the city says the flogging was a show of strength.
He says two men accused of helping to kill a man and torture his mother, who they accused of theft, were each given 39 lashes in the north-eastern suburb of Suqa-hola.
The man who actually killed the alleged thief was released, after agreeing to pay his family 100 camels in compensation.
Before the flogging, hundreds of Islamist fighters performed a military parade, our reporter says.
Death threats
Cameras were banned from the stoning in Kismayo, but print and radio journalists who were allowed to attend estimated that the woman, Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow, was 23 years old.

People were saying this was not good for Sharia law, this was not good for human rights, this was not good for anything
Witness
However, Amnesty said it had learned she was 13, and that her father had said she was raped by three men.
When the family tried to report the rape, the girl was accused of adultery and detained, Amnesty said.
Convicting a girl of 13 for adultery would be illegal under Islamic law.
A human rights activist in the town told the BBC on condition of anonymity that he had received death threats from the Islamic militia, who accuse him of spreading false information about the incident.
He denies having anything to with Amnesty's report.
'Crying'
Court authorities have said the woman came to them admitting her guilt.

FROM THE TODAY PROGRAMME


More from Today programme
She was asked several times to review her confession but she stressed that she wanted Sharia law and the deserved punishment to apply, they said.
But a witness who spoke to the BBC's Today programme said she had been crying and had to be forced into a hole before the stoning, reported to have taken place in a football stadium.
"More than 1,000 people arrived there," he said.
"After two hours, the Islamic administration in Kismayo brought the lady to the place and when she came out she said: 'What do you want from me?'"
"They said: 'We will do what Allah has instructed us'. She said: 'I'm not going, I'm not going. Don't kill me, don't kill me.'
"A few minutes later more than 50 men tried to stone her."
'Checked by nurses'
The witness said people crowding round to see the execution said it was "awful".
"People were saying this was not good for Sharia law, this was not good for human rights, this was not good for anything."
But no-one tried to stop the Islamist officials, who were armed, the witness said. He said one boy was shot in the confusion.
According to Amnesty International, nurses were sent to check during the stoning whether the victim was still alive. They removed her from the ground and declared that she was, before she was replaced so the stoning could continue.
The port of Kismayo was seized in August by a coalition of forces loyal to rebel leader Hassan Turki, and al-Shabab, the country's main radical Islamist insurgent organisation.
Mr Turki is on the US list of "financers of terrorism".
It was the first reported execution by stoning in the southern port city since Islamist insurgents captured it.
The BBC had a reporter in the area, but he was shot dead in Kismayo in June.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUHFfR8hWcA]Metallica - The Unforgiven - YouTube[/ame]

 

[eagle1462010]

They are very lucky that we are not like them.

What would they say if we said "GOD WILLS IT", and killed all of them refusing to convert?

The abuses of Radical Islam are everywhere to be seen. Unless you live under a Rock.

Sounds really scary!!

FO Rag

 

[eagle1462010]

A 13 year old stoned to death for being RAPED.

I don't give a damn if they like me or not. This shows their true colors. And I could post examples of this all FING day long.

 

[eagle1462010]

Hey Sunni man...........................

In the First Gulf War, what number called in Bingo made everyone tuck and run.................

I believe it was B52......................

 

[Sunni Man]

They are very lucky that we are not like them.

What would they say if we said "GOD WILLS IT", and killed all of them refusing to convert?

The abuses of Radical Islam are everywhere to be seen. Unless you live under a Rock.

Sounds really scary!!

FO Rag

What we have here is a regular keyboard Rambo.....lol

 

[eagle1462010]

Sounds really scary!!

FO Rag

What we have here is a regular keyboard Rambo.....lol

LOL

Are they killing Christians for not converting around the world Sunni Man?

Did they kill the 13 year old for being raped?

Do you believe in Sharia Law?

Do you want it in the U.S.?

Religion of Peace my arse.

Religion of Peace and a whole stack of dead bodies.

I don't Fing care what they think or you. I've served over there. My family has served over there, and you are nothing more than a BS mouthpiece of their cause.

 

[deltex1]

I hate academic arguments over why we fight. All I want is when we fight we win quickly and in a manner that scares the crap out of any observer. We have not done that since 1945.

 

[sambino510]

i dont think the best and brightes die i think the poor that have no other choice join and die why not think of better things for them like education???

There are surely many poor, more rural soldiers in the military, but I think this is more common in our past wars, like World War II or Vietnam. Today's soldiers are very specialized, and also are all volunteers. So I think it would be unfair to nail them all down as uneducated farm boys. Point well taken though, as I'm sure there are still a number of them who are not educated, but that's only because they have chosen that particular career course.

 

[sambino510]

So what are the roots of that evil Skull?

Peanut head and the Shah. Who gave him safe haven?

As our people rotted as Hostages over a year. Carter didn't do jack squat. When the Iran/Iraq War started we were of the mindset of revenge, and of the mindset of the Cold War. Yet the War was primarily Sunni versus Shia.

They are even Intolerant of other forms of Islam, killing each other because they choose not to believe as they do.

Later, Saddam became a problem because of his support of Terrorism and his EXPANSIONIST DESIRES. There would have been no first Gulf War if he didn't Invade Kuwait.

And on and on...............

They would hate us for being Non believers even if we had never fired a shot over there. Look at Islamic Fanatics in Africa, who attack and murder whole villages because they don't believe as they do.

We had no position in those ideals to kill every man woman and child because they chose to be Christians.

Yet that goes on today, without any interference at all from the us. Radical Islam is a cult. Taught from birth to kill any who don't agree, and we stand against it.

Secondly, we went into Bosnia to STOP THE SLAUGHTER OF MUSLIMS.
We went into Somalia to Stop the Starvation and Genocide of people who were mostly Muslims.

Yet we are hated. You may say it's all about the oil, as oil there is a Vital Commodity for the world, but these countries wouldn't be anything other than a Third World Country without it, because they make a hell of a lot of money off of it.

And on and on.........................

As does the fight against those who want all Non Believers dead.

I think it would be unfair to say that the wars in the Middle East are JUST about taking revenge against Saddam or Bin Laden or whoever, or that they're JUST about getting oil or other commodities. These issues are very complex, and I nor anyone else should not try to pretend like we know all the answers. However, it seems to me like there are few to no times where we are legitimately concerned about the populace of these actual countries. In other words, our politicians may say that we are fighting for the Iraqis, but we wouldn't have given a damn about them if we hadn't thought Saddam Hussein had harmed OUR people. We may say we are trying to improve Afghanistan's infrastructure, but we would have never done a thing about it if Osama Bin Laden hadn't attacked OUR people. Thus, our motives, at least in that way, seem rather selfish, and the moral obligations of our missions seem to me like an afterthought.

Also, saying that all Muslims hate all non-Muslims because they are non-believers is a bit too easy. Whatever teachings there may be in the Qur'an that hint at that, a Qur'an which I've read a lot of, the Qur'an just like the Bible or Torah has many passages which people choose to not take so literally. In reality, the three books, and the three religions, are surprisingly similar. Jesus Christ is one of the most quoted prophets in Islam.

 

[sambino510]

I hate academic arguments over why we fight. All I want is when we fight we win quickly and in a manner that scares the crap out of any observer. We have not done that since 1945.

I understand people's frustration over these kinds of discussions, as its a sensitive topic. However, if anything I think we owe it to our troops to make sure they are fighting and dying for reasonable causes. They are trained to simply obey their superiors, not think for themselves. Thus, it is the public's job to reflect on their missions and see if its worth it to lose whole generations and then pretend like they died "fighting for our freedoms", when in reality its possible they died for absolutely nothing.

 

[sambino510]

Natalie, not everyone in the military is "poor" and have no other choices. It's insulting and degrading to think that of our military.

Sambino, there are evil people in this world who really do want to harm us. We can't all sit around, hold hands and sing Kumbaya. The issue with Afghanistan is that that the people there do not consider themselves to be from Afghanistan. They consider them part of the local tribes. This kind of thinking has allowed groups like Al Qaeda to set up camps easily to train people in order to attack us and our allies. I do not think nation building works but the only alternative is to go in and destroy the country every few years and that does not seem feasible economically or ethically.

So yes, we fight for your personally and for all Americans. You're welcome.

I can't argue with the fact that there are people who want to harm us, nor would I try to. We could look back at "why" they want to harm us, but that's another story. Let's assume we indeed have these enemies, namely terrorists, all over the world. To me, terrorism is just like any other guerrilla warfare. The goal is not absolute victory, battle by battle, but rather just to make the enemy bleed economically, socially, etc. It's a completely different war, and one that you cannot win with tanks and helicopters. The goal of terrorism is in the name; it's to "terrorize", to scare us so much that we send our brave men and women halfway around the world, waste billions of dollars, and lose most of our popularity with the international society while the "terrorists" sit in caves and laugh it up. We cannot defeat terror with bullets, because it's an emotion, just like love, fear, or anger. The instant we responded to 9/11, whether it's our two wars, taking off our shoes at airports, or not allowing large backpacks at parades, is the instant the terrorists won.

If your name means you really are a veteran, I certainly applaud your service, but if these are my views then I don't feel you are fighting for me, nor are you fighting for the best interests of any of the rest of us, and that is not your fault. It is the fault of a complete misconception of how to fight our enemies.

Anyways, this is simply my opinion, and I once again want to thank you for your service, because my despite my personal views I still appreciate just how much dedication it takes.

 

[sambino510]

I think I agree.

No American fighting in Asia right now is defending any Americans' freedom.

Neither of those nations was ever a threat to my or any American's freedom.

So in your opinion, Americans being killed does not infringe on that person's freedom? 9/11 was fiction? The shoe bomber didn't exist? Everyone really loves America?

Sure Americans being killed infringes on that person's freedom, but if someone came into your backyard tomorrow who didn't speak your language, was carrying a big gun, and started yelling at you, I don't think you'd consider it "infringing upon his freedom" if you gunned him down. The man may have just been trying to help, but how could you know? You're just trying to protect your family from a mysterious man and his friends who have set up camp over the mountainside. Many of these things depend greatly on perspective, and personal reflection. I don't condone killing by either side, American or Taliban or whoever. However, we are sort of on their turf.

9/11 was real but one must look at the reasons for 9/11 happening, some of them anyways. Osama Bin Laden didn't like that his home country of Saudi Arabia was in the back pocket of the U.S. government. He didn't like that after him and his fellow freedom fighters (now called the Taliban) "fought for our freedom" in Afghanistan against the Russians in the 80s and then we hung him out to dry. He didn't like many things, so he decided to make a statement that would change the world forever, and it did. I once again do not support his actions, but if anything it's frustrating that his violent actions cover up very real world problems.

The shoe bomber was a joke.

Many people love America, but the bigger you are the more enemies you have it seems.

 

[koshergrl]

i dont think the best and brightes die i think the poor that have no other choice join and die why not think of better things for them like education???

I think most of them probably have a better education than you do.

 

[koshergrl]

Natalie, not everyone in the military is "poor" and have no other choices. It's insulting and degrading to think that of our military.

Sambino, there are evil people in this world who really do want to harm us. We can't all sit around, hold hands and sing Kumbaya. The issue with Afghanistan is that that the people there do not consider themselves to be from Afghanistan. They consider them part of the local tribes. This kind of thinking has allowed groups like Al Qaeda to set up camps easily to train people in order to attack us and our allies. I do not think nation building works but the only alternative is to go in and destroy the country every few years and that does not seem feasible economically or ethically.

So yes, we fight for your personally and for all Americans. You're welcome.

I can't argue with the fact that there are people who want to harm us, nor would I try to. We could look back at "why" they want to harm us, but that's another story. Let's assume we indeed have these enemies, namely terrorists, all over the world. To me, terrorism is just like any other guerrilla warfare. The goal is not absolute victory, battle by battle, but rather just to make the enemy bleed economically, socially, etc. It's a completely different war, and one that you cannot win with tanks and helicopters. The goal of terrorism is in the name; it's to "terrorize", to scare us so much that we send our brave men and women halfway around the world, waste billions of dollars, and lose most of our popularity with the international society while the "terrorists" sit in caves and laugh it up. We cannot defeat terror with bullets, because it's an emotion, just like love, fear, or anger. The instant we responded to 9/11, whether it's our two wars, taking off our shoes at airports, or not allowing large backpacks at parades, is the instant the terrorists won.

If your name means you really are a veteran, I certainly applaud your service, but if these are my views then I don't feel you are fighting for me, nor are you fighting for the best interests of any of the rest of us, and that is not your fault. It is the fault of a complete misconception of how to fight our enemies.

Anyways, this is simply my opinion, and I once again want to thank you for your service, because my despite my personal views I still appreciate just how much dedication it takes.

You live in a country where you are allowed to disrespect soldiers and blather endlessly about the things you think of because you have too much time on your hands...and the REASON you have too much time on your hands is because you live a privileged, safe existence, made safe by the very military you show disdain for, in a place where you are able to afford the things you need.

In other words, just shut up. You're an ungrateful gnat who doesn't deserve the liberties and the protection that you smugly claim you have no use for.

 

[sambino510]

So in your opinion, Americans being killed does not infringe on that person's freedom? 9/11 was fiction? The shoe bomber didn't exist? Everyone really loves America?

We are not loved because of our actions.

In the Middle East alone our government has been jumping in and out of bed with governments and dictators like a 2 dollar whore for decades all in a bid for control and it has been a miserable failure of policy.

I suppose you think that the war in Vietnam was necessary to protect our freedom as well.

FYI it wasn't.

Neither was Korea or any other undeclared war we have manufactured since WWII

Our government does what's best for this country in our foreign policies. Well usually. Not really sure what Obama's doing. Anyway, every country does what's in their best interests and that is why we are in those countries. Call it manufactured all you want. That just shows me that you know nothing about foreign policy.

I don't see how any of what this person says makes it so they know nothing about foreign policy. Perhaps they just happen to reflect my own views of our policy decisions, but none of what they said seemed inaccurate, and neither is what you said. It just seems surprising to me that you say with such calm and nonchalance that our government simply does do what's best for us. Meaning, the two recent wars, the War on Terror, whatever it is, was all about our own personal security or interests abroad. I for one don't think it's fair to go killing people throughout the world just because we feel a little nervous about our personal security, just as it's not okay for you to walk down your block and kill your neighbor because you think he might be a danger to you.

 

[sambino510]

Natalie, not everyone in the military is "poor" and have no other choices. It's insulting and degrading to think that of our military.

Sambino, there are evil people in this world who really do want to harm us. We can't all sit around, hold hands and sing Kumbaya. The issue with Afghanistan is that that the people there do not consider themselves to be from Afghanistan. They consider them part of the local tribes. This kind of thinking has allowed groups like Al Qaeda to set up camps easily to train people in order to attack us and our allies. I do not think nation building works but the only alternative is to go in and destroy the country every few years and that does not seem feasible economically or ethically.

So yes, we fight for your personally and for all Americans. You're welcome.

I can't argue with the fact that there are people who want to harm us, nor would I try to. We could look back at "why" they want to harm us, but that's another story. Let's assume we indeed have these enemies, namely terrorists, all over the world. To me, terrorism is just like any other guerrilla warfare. The goal is not absolute victory, battle by battle, but rather just to make the enemy bleed economically, socially, etc. It's a completely different war, and one that you cannot win with tanks and helicopters. The goal of terrorism is in the name; it's to "terrorize", to scare us so much that we send our brave men and women halfway around the world, waste billions of dollars, and lose most of our popularity with the international society while the "terrorists" sit in caves and laugh it up. We cannot defeat terror with bullets, because it's an emotion, just like love, fear, or anger. The instant we responded to 9/11, whether it's our two wars, taking off our shoes at airports, or not allowing large backpacks at parades, is the instant the terrorists won.

If your name means you really are a veteran, I certainly applaud your service, but if these are my views then I don't feel you are fighting for me, nor are you fighting for the best interests of any of the rest of us, and that is not your fault. It is the fault of a complete misconception of how to fight our enemies.

Anyways, this is simply my opinion, and I once again want to thank you for your service, because my despite my personal views I still appreciate just how much dedication it takes.

You live in a country where you are allowed to disrespect soldiers and blather endlessly about the things you think of because you have too much time on your hands...and the REASON you have too much time on your hands is because you live a privileged, safe existence, made safe by the very military you show disdain for, in a place where you are able to afford the things you need.

In other words, just shut up. You're an ungrateful gnat who doesn't deserve the liberties and the protection that you smugly claim you have no use for.

I would appreciate if you show me the same level of calm, respectful debate as I have shown this military veteran and that I would show to any other human being. That being said, I apologize if you are offended by my commentary. I'm not sure if you read what I actually wrote, but if anything I am concerned more than most for the sacrifices of our soldiers. Most Americans think that these men and women died fighting for something serious, something real, while I don't think most of them died for anything that applies to me personally, nor the majority of other Americans. Perhaps it's hard for me to appreciate the military when I myself hope to one day be a diplomat, as I feel once you kill the first person you've already lost. I guess I'm a bit biased, just like anyone else.

Anyways, if you want to critique my writing please do. If you want to just verbally berate me because you think I owe it to an anonymous soldier that I have the ability to go to a baseball game or go to the movies, I'd appreciate if you didn't. This thread was simply meant to spark interesting discussions, discussions that are important to me and that I would hope are just as important to you.

 

[Intense]

I hate academic arguments over why we fight. All I want is when we fight we win quickly and in a manner that scares the crap out of any observer. We have not done that since 1945.

Both Bush's did it in Iraq.

 

[sambino510]

i dont think the best and brightes die i think the poor that have no other choice join and die why not think of better things for them like education???

I think most of them probably have a better education than you do.

Agreed. Once again today's military is very specialized and technologically savvy. They have to be to operate such complicated machinery.

 

[sambino510]

I hate academic arguments over why we fight. All I want is when we fight we win quickly and in a manner that scares the crap out of any observer. We have not done that since 1945.

Both Bush's did it in Iraq.

I suppose it makes logical sense to want to win quickly, but I think "shock and awe" is where the problem lies, one of the problems anyways. It just seems like a joke that we would feel so threatened by a country when our military has the ability to destroy them in a matter of days. Are these the enemies we fear so much? Despite having not necessarily "won" our past two wars, the opposition was more-or-less a joke. In Afghanistan we fight 15 year old boys paid a few cents to fire sniper rifle shots at American positions, or goat herders that just want us to go away.

Anyways, I don't think we should take pride in scaring people or killing people in the most "efficient" way possible.