Fighting for MY Freedoms?

[sambino510]

It's a sad fact in life that only nerds, sissies, communists, socialists and generally sub-educated jerks waste time questioning the patriotism they will never understand.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this site is meant for more-or-less educated debate about serious topics, not random attacks on me or other people who post.

If I'm a nerd, I consider that a compliment, as education and critical thinking is important.

I'm not so sure what makes me a sissy. If I'm a sissy because I respect and love the humans of this world too much to want to kill them, well then yeah, I'm a sissy.

I don't remember posting anything that implied a Communist ideology, though I do believe Communism is a good idea that has been poorly executed by a number of different regimes throughout the 20th century. It's a sort of utopian idea, and maybe an overly idealistic one. However, no, I'm not a Communist.

Socialism is an idea that many European countries follow, in areas like their health care and education. I personally see it as a very unifying, helpful ideology, and don't see why it should be considered an insult.

If I'm a nerd, I think it's pretty hard to be a nerd AND sub-educated. In fact, I take these discussions and my studies in International Relations and Religion very seriously.

My only problem with patriotism is that it is divisive. We take pride in the fact that our country is the richest and strongest, when we should be striving to make the world equal and not cheering the suffering of our enemies or competitors. I think it would be far more honorable and positive for us to have a day, as the world, where everyone in every country celebrates simple human existence. In that lies true unity, and true understanding between cultures.

 

[Natalie]

You have much to learn.....

do i??? i seen lots of the boys i grew up with go to the service cos theres nothing else for them to do no money for college no oppertunitys

how many boys whos daddys are millionairs and ceos of big companys are getting killed???

may be u can tell me what i try to learn about dead friends

 

[Natalie]

Natalie, not everyone in the military is "poor" and have no other choices. It's insulting and degrading to think that of our military.

i didn't say every1 i said the 1s dieing

i herd a lot of storys about what happens in iraq and the story never had a part where a general kick open a door and lead the charge in to a house may be I herd wrong but i don't think so

not evey1 is smart enough to go to colege or has enough money I think may be 3 guys I went to school with didn't join cos they had money to go to more school

an nonthing i said means i don't like r military i love them but there needs to be more of options for them like me my choise was be a waitress or a stripper thx some choice

and thx for whoeva neg rep me for having a diff opinon hate freedom of speach i guess

 

[Auteur]

After 9-11 the war in Iraq and Afghanistan brought it to the enemy and America beat the shit out of them and killed the rambling jihad dream. The Obama administration inherited Afghanistan conflict and so far it seems that Afghanistan has become a stalemate but the stupid and sub-educated democrat base can't seem to come to it's senses and blame the freaking five years of Obama.

I think it's too simplistic to say that the goal of every terrorist is simply "jihad", or to kill every infidel or something. Just like our own troops, these men fight for many different reasons. America has no doubt made some mistakes and some enemies around the world. As stated in some of my other responses, I suppose I just don't think we should celebrate death, or "beating the shit" out of our enemies. If we are to celebrate victory, it should be seen as an unfortunate necessity rather than a source of pride. Obama has done very little different than George W. Bush would have done. He ramped up the drone strike program in Yemen and Pakistan, and did nothing to slow operations in Afghanistan. He's just as hawkish towards Iran too. So I don't see how Obama is inferior in that way to his predecessor. Also, I don't see any factual reason why you'd say all democrats are sub-educated. I for one don't believe in either party, but blanket statements like that are more harmful than helpful.

The jihad aimed at the symbol of capitalism early in the Clinton administration and Bubba Bill dismissed the attack and a couple of years later ordered American bombers to destroy Yugoslavia. Meanwhile the same jihad terrorist network went to flight school in the US and we know what happened. America under Bush lashed out and destroyed the jihad organization to an extent that it has deteriorated to propaganda and threats of murder. Obama could have ended the stalemate in Afghanistan but instead his inaction has promoted attacks on American Military while the US Military has been subjected to high profile trials for things like pissing on the freaking enemy and Americans take casualties without being able to escalate the war. Didn't Vietnam teach democrats anything?

I believe you are correct that Democrats (or Republicans either) didn't learn the lessons of history. The US has blundered into two wars in recent years that were virtual reruns of Vietnam. There were misguided motives, no clear goals for an ending, and little understanding of the history and current culture and demographics of the country involved.

A low level guerrilla war is very hard to extinguish, and almost impossible without getting the population on side. The US failed in Afghanistan because they supported corrupt politicians with no standing in the larger community. Warlords get cabinet posts, the opium crop continues, tribesmen do not understand the role of police or the rule of law, but are given posts where they are expected to do carry out these sorts of roles. They failed because they hoped for a military solution to a much larger problem. You can "escalate" all you want, and it isn't going to change the situation.

The US has not destroyed "Jihad", nor extinguished threats from terrorism. Killing terrorists and anyone how has the misfortune to be standing nearby simply means the killed will be replaced by angry survivors. There is no shortage of extremist views in the world. Just look at a few of the comments on this site. The best that anyone can do is to deal fairly with the world, and connect with the world community to stop criminality wherever possible. But there is no guarantee of safety, and killing anyone who is a Muslim and makes threatening statements is a sure way of extending conflict on into one's grandchildren's time.

 

[Agit8r]

No war since WWII has protected our freedom. That is just the plain fact of the matter. It could perhaps be argued that some elements of the "war on terror" has increased any given American's security. On the other hand, the war as a whole has compromised our basic civil liberties. Such a war can't be said to protect our freedom.

 

[editec]

There isn't a nation on earth that is a threat to American freedom.

It takes enormous imagination to believe that our adventures in imperialism are somehow protecting US freedom.

US geopolitical hegemony, perhaps, but US freedom?

Please!

 

[koshergrl]

Soon enough we won't have any freedom to protect.

 

[sealadaigh]

You have much to learn.....

do i??? i seen lots of the boys i grew up with go to the service cos theres nothing else for them to do no money for college no oppertunitys

how many boys whos daddys are millionairs and ceos of big companys are getting killed???

may be u can tell me what i try to learn about dead friends

i had a II-S deferment when vietnam was hot. i dropped out and enlisted but a lot of my former classmates were in college really only for the deferment.

there weren't many rich kids in my artillery unit...none...and they were smart kids. fire direction ain't for dummies. they were just poor.

we can't let our wars be fought on the backs of our poorest americans. different time, but the same deal today. long story.

i am so very sorry about your friends.

 

[Katzndogz]

Natalie, not everyone in the military is "poor" and have no other choices. It's insulting and degrading to think that of our military.

i didn't say every1 i said the 1s dieing

i herd a lot of storys about what happens in iraq and the story never had a part where a general kick open a door and lead the charge in to a house may be I herd wrong but i don't think so

not evey1 is smart enough to go to colege or has enough money I think may be 3 guys I went to school with didn't join cos they had money to go to more school

an nonthing i said means i don't like r military i love them but there needs to be more of options for them like me my choise was be a waitress or a stripper thx some choice

and thx for whoeva neg rep me for having a diff opinon hate freedom of speach i guess

It's important that YOU stay in school. That way you will learn how to communicate with others. Concentrate on subjects like spelling and grammar. Otherwise you are quite correct, your choices are between being a stripper or a waitress. IF you don't want to be limited to stripping or waitressing you will have to become worth more. If your friends are anything like yourself, it is sad that they made decisions in their lives that led them to few options. Some of those decisions are to be uneducated children that grow up into uneducated adults.

 

[SFC Ollie]

You have much to learn.....

do i??? i seen lots of the boys i grew up with go to the service cos theres nothing else for them to do no money for college no oppertunitys

how many boys whos daddys are millionairs and ceos of big companys are getting killed???

may be u can tell me what i try to learn about dead friends

i had a II-S deferment when vietnam was hot. i dropped out and enlisted but a lot of my former classmates were in college really only for the deferment.

there weren't many rich kids in my artillery unit...none...and they were smart kids. fire direction ain't for dummies. they were just poor.

we can't let our wars be fought on the backs of our poorest americans. different time, but the same deal today. long story.

i am so very sorry about your friends.

Truth is that over a dozen kids of congressmen or Senators have served in the military during this War on Terror.

And according to the below source the majority of troops come from middle income families. I would post the graph but it's inserted in a document i cannot copy.
It appears that the majority come from homes that make between 37,000 and 77,000 per year with the 50,000+ the highest.

Look at chart B-41

http://prhome.defense.gov/RFM/MPP/ACCESSION POLICY/PopRep2011/summary/Summary.pdf

 

[Dot Com]

its rw group-think/Orwellian code for attacking other countries physically & economically in order to open their markets to the banksters that run/own our govt.

 

[sambino510]

do i??? i seen lots of the boys i grew up with go to the service cos theres nothing else for them to do no money for college no oppertunitys

how many boys whos daddys are millionairs and ceos of big companys are getting killed???

may be u can tell me what i try to learn about dead friends

i had a II-S deferment when vietnam was hot. i dropped out and enlisted but a lot of my former classmates were in college really only for the deferment.

there weren't many rich kids in my artillery unit...none...and they were smart kids. fire direction ain't for dummies. they were just poor.

we can't let our wars be fought on the backs of our poorest americans. different time, but the same deal today. long story.

i am so very sorry about your friends.

Truth is that over a dozen kids of congressmen or Senators have served in the military during this War on Terror.

And according to the below source the majority of troops come from middle income families. I would post the graph but it's inserted in a document i cannot copy.
It appears that the majority come from homes that make between 37,000 and 77,000 per year with the 50,000+ the highest.

Look at chart B-41

http://prhome.defense.gov/RFM/MPP/ACCESSION POLICY/PopRep2011/summary/Summary.pdf

I have no doubt that some kids of various congressmen have served, but thats a dozen or so kids of over 500 Congressmen. Not to belittle their sacrifice, but I would argue it's still pretty disproportionate, at least for the UPPER class.

But sure, I would not argue that there are a ton, if not most, middle class men serving in the military. I appreciate the fact you attached some statistics. My main argument is that the very rich seldom seem to go, not so much that the very poor always go. But that's another story. My main point is that the entire military system is a bad idea, not that the wrong people are going and that if the right people went I wouldn't have a problem with it.

 

[sambino510]

Natalie, not everyone in the military is "poor" and have no other choices. It's insulting and degrading to think that of our military.

i didn't say every1 i said the 1s dieing

i herd a lot of storys about what happens in iraq and the story never had a part where a general kick open a door and lead the charge in to a house may be I herd wrong but i don't think so

not evey1 is smart enough to go to colege or has enough money I think may be 3 guys I went to school with didn't join cos they had money to go to more school

an nonthing i said means i don't like r military i love them but there needs to be more of options for them like me my choise was be a waitress or a stripper thx some choice

and thx for whoeva neg rep me for having a diff opinon hate freedom of speach i guess

It's important that YOU stay in school. That way you will learn how to communicate with others. Concentrate on subjects like spelling and grammar. Otherwise you are quite correct, your choices are between being a stripper or a waitress. IF you don't want to be limited to stripping or waitressing you will have to become worth more. If your friends are anything like yourself, it is sad that they made decisions in their lives that led them to few options. Some of those decisions are to be uneducated children that grow up into uneducated adults.

Sort of off topic to the theme of the thread, but people do not always "make decisions" in their life that lead them down a particular path; often that path is laid out for them, either by their family situation or social class, or environment. I think it's pretty assumptive that a person's limitation to life as a stripper, waitress, construction worker, whatever is completely their fault. I'm not saying it's necessarily society's fault either, but you have to be considerate of other factors. Agree with your first point though, education is certainly important and in most places community college is at least relatively affordable if you want it bad enough. That being said, I think she communicated just fine, and had some solid points. Grammar isn't as important as simply getting a good point across, at least not in these discussions.

 

[SFC Ollie]

i had a II-S deferment when vietnam was hot. i dropped out and enlisted but a lot of my former classmates were in college really only for the deferment.

there weren't many rich kids in my artillery unit...none...and they were smart kids. fire direction ain't for dummies. they were just poor.

we can't let our wars be fought on the backs of our poorest americans. different time, but the same deal today. long story.

i am so very sorry about your friends.

Truth is that over a dozen kids of congressmen or Senators have served in the military during this War on Terror.

And according to the below source the majority of troops come from middle income families. I would post the graph but it's inserted in a document i cannot copy.
It appears that the majority come from homes that make between 37,000 and 77,000 per year with the 50,000+ the highest.

Look at chart B-41

http://prhome.defense.gov/RFM/MPP/ACCESSION POLICY/PopRep2011/summary/Summary.pdf

I have no doubt that some kids of various congressmen have served, but thats a dozen or so kids of over 500 Congressmen. Not to belittle their sacrifice, but I would argue it's still pretty disproportionate, at least for the UPPER class.

But sure, I would not argue that there are a ton, if not most, middle class men serving in the military. I appreciate the fact you attached some statistics. My main argument is that the very rich seldom seem to go, not so much that the very poor always go. But that's another story. My main point is that the entire military system is a bad idea, not that the wrong people are going and that if the right people went I wouldn't have a problem with it.

We have a volunteer military. I wouldn't have it any other way. but if you do the math (Which I saw a few years ago and can't find today) The congress kids as a group actually surpassed any other group you could come up with in percentage of those who served....

I knew rich and poor throughout my career, You never really had any clue other than the way some of them acted..... I went to give a re-enlistment talk to one young man (Part of the job) And found he had 3 paychecks thrown in his desk drawer. I chewed his ass out for the possible risk of theft and he showed me his check book with a $50,000 Balance. Seems his Dad deposited a couple grand a month into his account. his dad owns a Hotel on Miami beach. Military service in his family was traditional....

Of course I also had kids who were raised dirt poor. But the fact remains that most of the Military comes from most of the people. The middle.....

 

[Survivalist]

Overall, the motivation behind joining the military is far too varied and complex to explain in one particular theory. However, it seems to me that very few soldiers are concerned with the politics of their actual mission, and the consequences of their failures, or even the consequences of their successes. Rather, they obey orders, and fight to their dying breath and the breath of the man next to them until they are told they can return to their families. They return to our country, and we praise them for fighting for us. I regret to say it, but I cannot say a single soldier is fighting for ME personally. I respect their sacrifice as only one who greatly regrets it could, but I cannot support their mission. I hope one day we can find a way to provide to the young, great minds of our generation a way of gaining the same ideals that the military life provides, while avoiding the blood sport that currently accompanies it.

In the last 100 years, what wars would you have supported, that you would have joined in the fight if you were able to at the time?

In the same light, as an imaginary president before the US became actively involved in each war you support, would you have given aid and support say to the Soviets in WW2 or the British in WW1?

 

[sealadaigh]

Truth is that over a dozen kids of congressmen or Senators have served in the military during this War on Terror.

And according to the below source the majority of troops come from middle income families. I would post the graph but it's inserted in a document i cannot copy.
It appears that the majority come from homes that make between 37,000 and 77,000 per year with the 50,000+ the highest.

Look at chart B-41

http://prhome.defense.gov/RFM/MPP/ACCESSION POLICY/PopRep2011/summary/Summary.pdf

I have no doubt that some kids of various congressmen have served, but thats a dozen or so kids of over 500 Congressmen. Not to belittle their sacrifice, but I would argue it's still pretty disproportionate, at least for the UPPER class.

But sure, I would not argue that there are a ton, if not most, middle class men serving in the military. I appreciate the fact you attached some statistics. My main argument is that the very rich seldom seem to go, not so much that the very poor always go. But that's another story. My main point is that the entire military system is a bad idea, not that the wrong people are going and that if the right people went I wouldn't have a problem with it.

We have a volunteer military. I wouldn't have it any other way. but if you do the math (Which I saw a few years ago and can't find today) The congress kids as a group actually surpassed any other group you could come up with in percentage of those who served....

I knew rich and poor throughout my career, You never really had any clue other than the way some of them acted..... I went to give a re-enlistment talk to one young man (Part of the job) And found he had 3 paychecks thrown in his desk drawer. I chewed his ass out for the possible risk of theft and he showed me his check book with a $50,000 Balance. Seems his Dad deposited a couple grand a month into his account. his dad owns a Hotel on Miami beach. Military service in his family was traditional....

Of course I also had kids who were raised dirt poor. But the fact remains that most of the Military comes from most of the people. The middle.....

we can look at statistics and we can look at the situations behind the statistics...

here is from the introduction to your link...

"Today’s recruiting environment is excellent. For the last three years, the services have
experienced extraordinary recruiting success. Probably the most prominent factor has
been the persistently high unemployment rate, particularly for youth. The
unemployment rate for 16- to-19-year-olds has been about 25 percent for the last three
years, while the rate for young adults (20- to-24-year-olds) has been about 15 percent.Given the scarcity of civilian job opportunities and a somewhat reduced requirement
for enlisted accessions, the quality of accessions (in terms of educational backgrounds
and ability test scores) increased in each of the past three years. In fact, FY11 accessions
reflect the highest quality of any year since the All-Volunteer Force began in 1973.

As the economy improves, however, it will be difficult to sustain this high quality.
Youth influencers have not been as likely to recommend military service as they were in
the 1980s and 1990s. Increasing numbers of bright young Americans are going to
college immediately after completing high school. Some commentators expect
budgetary problems to create pressures to stop increasing or even to reduce military
pay."

i think that says a lot.

 

[sealadaigh]

i dont think the best and brightes die i think the poor that have no other choice join and die why not think of better things for them like education???

I think most of them probably have a better education than you do.

so?

 

[Unkotare]

I regret to say it, but I cannot say a single soldier is fighting for ME personally.

Then you don't understand a damn thing.

 

[sambino510]

I regret to say it, but I cannot say a single soldier is fighting for ME personally.

Then you don't understand a damn thing.

If you want to critique me and correct me, explain why I "don't understand a damn thing". In that particular statement, I simply meant that my particular views are that killing, no matter what the reason, is wrong, and that I regret that the lives of these soldiers are being wasted needlessly. That does not necessarily mean that there are not soldiers who would claim they are fighting for me, and power to them. All of this is my personal opinion though, so I don't see how I could not understand something that I'm not claiming I know all the answers to.

 

[sambino510]

Overall, the motivation behind joining the military is far too varied and complex to explain in one particular theory. However, it seems to me that very few soldiers are concerned with the politics of their actual mission, and the consequences of their failures, or even the consequences of their successes. Rather, they obey orders, and fight to their dying breath and the breath of the man next to them until they are told they can return to their families. They return to our country, and we praise them for fighting for us. I regret to say it, but I cannot say a single soldier is fighting for ME personally. I respect their sacrifice as only one who greatly regrets it could, but I cannot support their mission. I hope one day we can find a way to provide to the young, great minds of our generation a way of gaining the same ideals that the military life provides, while avoiding the blood sport that currently accompanies it.

In the last 100 years, what wars would you have supported, that you would have joined in the fight if you were able to at the time?

In the same light, as an imaginary president before the US became actively involved in each war you support, would you have given aid and support say to the Soviets in WW2 or the British in WW1?

In the last 100 years, I would have probably only supported World War II, as Hitler was hell-bent on world domination and, for the most part, had the means to accomplish his goals. That being said, I doubt I would have joined the war-effort to fight personally (notwithstanding the draft), as I'm personally a pacifist and would sooner die than kill, that's just the way I am.

As for your question about support, I regret to say I'm a bit of an isolationist. I think revolutions like the Syrian War or Afghanistan or whatnot must be fought by the people themselves. People would then reply to me that they don't have the means, and thus the U.S. has to fight for them, but I would argue that any people with enough motivation, unity, dedication can overcome a superior force. That doesn't mean I wouldn't have supported certain countries down the line, but I would certainly be hesitant to do so. The examples you mentioned for instance, at least the Russians, would probably be a country I would support in a conflict, but that would primarily be as a proxy war to fight against Hitler, not necessarily because I like the Russians or think they're a bunch of great guys. Today, however, I feel we have no place supporting, say, the Syrian rebels, as it's a conflict we don't fully understand. World War I was a completely overblown, European conflict that had no winner or loser in my opinion, it was complete destruction and destabilization of the region that effected decades to come. Thus, whether the U.S. fought or didn't fight, I think the outcome would have been just as consequential.