All of this is completely irrelevant. Living creatures are sentient. They think and are self-aware. Robots are not alive, they do not think, and they are not self-aware. Period.
Tumors are not alive, but they grow. Moles are not alive, but they grow. Diseases are not alive, but they grow.
Okay, really. Does it bother you to sound this uneducated in public? "Cell, tissue, organ, organism." I TOLD you to go look them up before you started flapping your gums, but did you listen? A tumor IS alive. It is living tissue, part of the living organism in which it exists, which is why it grows. Ditto for moles. As for diseases, they are caused by these things we call "micro-organisms". Note the word "organism" in there. They are alive, despite being microscopic.
So, if you think that all human cells are alive, then it stands to reason that all human sperm and egg cells, based on their potential to become people, should have rights.
Brilliant...
Sorry, hun, but not everything gets those rights. Otherwise, we would all be on death row, every time a finger hits the keyboard. We lose millions of cells every time we touch something. Those poor, poor little babies. AWWWW..
One would have to be an elementary-school dropout to do so, since only one of the things listed above is an organism, and it is a micro-organism lacking a brain as we understand it. On the other hand, as a living thing, it is closer to sentient than a robot, which is merely an object.
Self-Aware Robot Can Adapt To Environment | danshope.com
Thats okay. I forgive you for being narrow about this. You are always welcome to think of a fetus as a person. I don't. Suck it, because I also do not give a rat's ass what your feelings towards me are, lol.. They are merely ad hominem attacks in lieu of an actual argument of logic.
How is a fetus self-contained? It has its own separate genetic structure, its own separate brain, nervous system, circulatory system, digestive system, and respiratory system. While he is designed as a symbiote - or a parasite, if you prefer - to take the nourishment and oxygen he requires out of the system of another organism, that does not make him a part of that organism, any more than a tapeworm is a part of your body simply because it is designed to exist inside of it.
No- it circulates the mother's blood, also. It gets its oxygen from the mother. It has a 100% dependence on the survival of the mother, and the health and well being of the mother, to survive its gestational period of growth.
And, if a tapeworm was WITHIN the confines of my body, it has placed itself under MY jurisdiction. That means that any part of my body that it has holed up in, is STILL my body. Since I have to take care of my body, then I have to take care of all parts of it, and rather than picking and choosing, I would opt to have instruments or medication introduced to rid me of the tapeworm. Same goes for a fetus that is unwanted. It is still within the confines of MY uterus. My uterus does not suddenly belong to the fetus. The fetus does not have property rights over my body. To say otherwise is preposterous.
It is subjected to the health and well being of my uterus, as well. If my uterus does not want it, it will dispose of the fetus/ embryo naturally.
Also, the uterus, even the healthiest ones, are not exactly the easiest places to adapt to, and lock on. That is (again) why 30% of all pregnancies will end in miscarriage before the woman ever knew she was pregnant.
The placenta and umbilical cord are biological machines, if you will, akin to the respirators and IV units hospitals use to feed and oxygenate patients and designed to take those things from one place - the mother - and channel them into the fetus. The fetus is self-contained in that all of his systems work and keep him alive and functioning without any input from anyone else. By the scientific/medical definition, a fetus is alive.
No a fetus is contained within the woman's self, because it does not have property rights to the WOMAN'S uterus. It does not have any guarantees that the woman will continue breathing throughout the 9 months of gestation.. It does not have any guarantees that she will not die or be seriously injured. It is completely dependent on her well being, and as such, cannot be considered a self contained individual.
Show me one fetus whose mama died at 28 weeks gestation, and still continued to a full term pregnancy.
Hence- it is NOT self contained. It DOES need the mother's biological input. Or, it will not survive to birth. THIS is a medical fact.
Sure. And that doesn't apply to a fetus. By your own words, it cannot, because a fetus is undeniably alive when he comes out of his mother's birth canal (barring any calamities), and you just said that "if something is not alive, it cannot be alive".
It is not alive before birth, as I have so eloquently described, rinsed, and repeated several times now, for you.
Your claim was that dead or alive it is not any less alive or less of an individual. Sorry, but dead things are not alive. That is a fact, honey buns.
Something that needs to be inside of another thing, to be able to grow, is not an individual. An individual is capable of property rights.. Fetuses do not have property rights.
But again- feel free to think of all fetuses that way, if you want to. I am not bashing you for thinking of fetuses as people, for YOURSELF, I am arguing for allowing everyone to have property rights over their own bodies, and not be pressured and abused into making decisions that force them through 9 months of gestation, weight gain, and painful child birth, all because you cannot accept that other people might not think of their fetuses as people. Do you understand?
Being designed to live inside the body of another creature does not make something not alive. You can define fetuses as parasites if you wish, although they aren't really since they do no harm to the mother if everything goes well, but that doesn't make them non-living. Bacteria are living organisms, tapeworms are living organisms, the offspring of marsupials in their pouches are living organisms, but all of them are designed to live in an environment of attachment to the body of another creature.
Fetuses do no harm? What??? Don't you know that pregnancy raises blood pressure, causes a great deal of weight gain, scars and mutilates the body, often tears the vagina, causes morning sickness, which gives women a whole plethora of other problems- dental issues, esophagal erosion, etc.. And I am sorry you never heard of gestational diabetes or ectopic pregnancies. Something close to one in a hundred women die during childbirth.
You are saying that these things are not harmful to the mother???
Wow.
I have no idea where you got this odd definition of "individual", but I suspect from the smell that you pulled it out of your ass.
Flame, flame away.
Sorry, but there's nothing in your little definition that excludes a fetus OR insists that an individual cannot be a parasite/symbiote.
OK. Well, you can call that an argument, I reckon. An individual is a singular person. Not two people living within one body.
Since it's mostly guesswork, AND that's not the point here, anyway. The point is that studies about how people "feel" about something does not constitute medical fact about what that something actually is. I don't give a damn if you get hundreds of thousands of illiterate boobs like yourself together and you ALL collectively "feel" that a fetus isn't alive, or the moon is made of green cheese, or whatever halfwit fairy tale you're peddling this month. It won't change what a fetus actually is, or the composition of the moon, no matter how hard you squinch your eyes shut and wish for it.
OK This is not about my FEELINGS. I never once said I feel this way or that way. Your posts are all very much that way, in the sense that you continuously show your personal vindiction for me, just because you cannot agree to disagree on when personhood or life begins.
No matter how much YOU wish, not everyone is going to agree with you on this subject. I hate to burst your bubble, but that is reality.
Already done, and now I'm beating you to death with them. You want some actual facts on this subject? How about you pull your head out of your psychology studies on how people "feel" about fetuses - and out of your ass, while you're at it - and crack open a book on biology or embryology? Every single thing I've said in this thread on the subject of fetuses and life are verifiable in any number of textbooks.
Oh wow, I mention ONE study on psychology, because it is how we relate to the human looking face (including primates) and you start talking about me giving you all kinds of bullshit information on FEELINGS???
Yikes... I would just really REALLY like for you to try to keep up with the conversation, for once. This is SAD.
Yeah, but dumbass, unlike you, I'm not talking about my feelings. I'm talking about actual, medical SCIENCE. This isn't your group therapy session, and we're not interested in validating your self-esteem here. This is about FACT, and like it or not, fact is not decided by a vote or by how good it makes you feel.
You have yet to post anything of medical relevance, or logic, really. Mostly, you just flame, because you are pissed off at my logic and facts, and cannot refute them. Boo, hoo! Here have a tissue- Then take a breather, and come back when you are ready to actually DISCUSS this, like a civilized human being would.
If the woman in question wants to kill another human being, then you're goddamned right I don't support her, and neither should anyone else, and if you want to define my unwillingness to act as a cheering section for infanticide "anger and hate", then do what you need to do. I don't feel any particular need for your warm, fuzzy approval. In fact, the more you talk, the better I feel about disagreeing with you, because I'm not interested in the approbation of illiterates.
Thats cool, Fuck it- whatever- But she supports every choice you make, no matter how ridiculous you are in coming to that decision. If you want to go ahead and have 20 babies, feel free. Maybe she doesn't.
More than half of all abortions are had by women who already have children. But yeah- I guess they are all illiterate dickheaded bitches too.
Damn the luck.
Learn to read. I didn't say, "the existence of a fetus". I said, "the existence of a fetus's LIFE". This is an incredibly lame attempt to avoid a point you cannot answer from an incredibly lame - and increasingly desperate - debater.
Honey, I am not the one throwing ad hominems left and right. I don't even know what you look like, but I can SEE the steam coming out of your ears.
Fetuses are not alive- so there is no existence of life there. The only thing left is the fetus itself. Growing and alive are not interchangable.
Simple biology. Growth cannot exist without life. Dead things do not grow.
On a very basic, third grade level, sure.
And no, of course dead things do not grow. =)
But this is not a question of a fetus who is growing being dead. It is about the fetus not being alive YET.
Diamonds GROW, lots of minerals grow, as do mountains, and bubbles.. but they are NOT LIVING THINGS...They are NOT alive.
And of course I'm angry. You are representative of what our schools are churning out today, and you are shockingly, appallingly, ignorant and uninformed on the most basic things. Given the state of your "education" - I use that term very loosely - we might just as well have burned the tax money spent on it in the fireplace for warmth. It would have been more useful.
OK Be mad.. Its normal for someone like you to hate on others for posting facts and relevant topics in regards to hot button issues like this one.
I have a 147 IQ, and am college educated. I also happen to know how to debate an issue, without blowing my top.
And the last thing you need is any more heat. You are already likened to a volcano.
By all means, cling to your utterly unearned self-esteem. It seems to be the only thing you learned in school.
:bows, curtsies:
Flame, baby, flame...
While you're having people look up word definitions for you - which you then are utterly unable to understand, apparently - have someone look up "argument", because I guarantee you it doesn't mean "something that agree with me". Just because you don't like my actual arguments or want to admit they're true does not mean they aren't, or that you can just dismiss them and pretend they aren't there.
You don't give arguments. You flame.
Please try to remember that other people are reading this thread, and they can see exactly what I can: You're being hit right and left with facts you can't answer, making a complete fool of yourself with remarks that any fifth-grader would know better than to make - dog-human hybrids? Really? - and you're falling back on emotion and buzzwords: "You're just a hater".
Hmmm... Well, I am quite sure that a hybrid dog and human is entirely possible. It is okay, though, if you don't believe it. I will not blow my top with you, for not believing factual biological information.
You're not the problem because you had an abortion. You're the problem because you're an imbecile, and proud of it. Your abortion is just a symptom of your appalling ignorance. I find it very sad that a baby had to die because you couldn't be bothered to attend biology class school.
LMAO!!
Flame your happy ass away... I had an abortion because I did not want to be pregnant, and it is my right.
Sorry you hate that FACT so much.
As far as I'm concerned, the topic is now that morons like you shouldn't be allowed to run around with unlicensed uteruses. It's like strapping a gun to a kitten's paw. The sucker goes off, and someone dies because the little animal doesn't know any better.
Okay..
Im definitely bored to tears now.. HAHA
You're right. This isn't an argument. It's a conversational massacre. This is what happens when a person goes to a battle of wits unarmed.
Unfortunately, there is no helping the discussion topic along, because you know nothing about the topic. I might as well be discussing particle physics with you, because you'd be just about as able to hold up your end. All that's left is my unbounded contempt for your proud ignorance.
OK. Im ignorant, and you do nothing but flame my factual posts because YOU cant understand that a woman's uterus is HER PROPERTY, and not property of: fetus.
Thats cool.. Stay in school..
If WE are the ones who love to spew that rhetoric, how come YOU are the one actually saying it all the time? Could it be that you're a bit defensive because having to face the facts of the issue is crumbling the little edifice of excuses you've built for yourself? Or it would, if you were bright enough and courageous enough to actually face them?
Blah blah blah.. Do you have ANYTHING of merit to add to this discussion???
THIS is all emotional jargon for "I did something stupid and terrible, and I will defend the stupid, incorrect beliefs I based that on with my dying breath. No facts for me, because I cannot ever accept that I was wrong!"
I used to be pro life.. I know how angry you are. I forgive you. I don't need your approval, though. =)
I think we've reached the REAL topic here, which is that you cannot accept any amount of evidence that a fetus is a living, distinct organism. If God Almighty came down from Heaven, tapped you on the shoulder, and said, "Fetuses are living humans", you would still deny it because you have to.
He wouldn't. God is pro choice, too. He breathes life into souls, making them to become a LIVING soul. That means he GIVES life through his breath of air. Study the bible for once. God also says that it is better to bite your tongue than to say awful abusive things to people. Maybe one day he will tap your shoulder and remind you of that.
Sure. Are they important enough to kill another human being over? No.
Wow. Misogyny at its lowest.
Once again, you're wrong. You should just post that on your computer screen somewhere - I AM WRONG AGAIN - and save us all time.
Crisis Pregnancy Centers - Pregnancy Care Centers - Worldwide
Go to one of them with some urine in your purse from a pregnant chick. See that it takes an hour to get results back, and all they do is just scare the dickens out of people, and tell them they can go to hell for an abortion, and how they coerce people into a full term pregnancy that they do not want. See how many of these centers only have unlicensed volunteers who are not allowed to diagnose pregnancy in the first place.
You have been given a sugar coated understanding of CPCs. They are some of the most oppressive, hate filled places on Earth.
This website lists organizations that help pregnant women as an alternative to abortion. They not only help to provide medical care and guidance to get assistance while the woman is pregnant. They also help her with assistance after the baby is born, networking with diaper banks, food banks, clothing banks, and private charities all across the nation. The Catholic Church alone provides about half the private charities for the poor in every community in the country, and we all know how they feel about abortion. In fact, if you go to your local welfare office and ask them for a list of charities in your area to which they refer their clients, you will see that at least half of them are administered by the Catholic Church, all by private donation.
Again, you got the sugar coated end of the information channel on this. Little do you know..
If you bothered to pull your head out of your self-pitying rhetoric of "You just want to demonize me", you would find out that pro-lifers have mobilized in a big way to help the babies they're trying to save.
Sure they have.. Sure.
What's a mystery to me is how you can declaim so positively on subjects about which you know nothing without being embarrassed. If you really think that pro-lifers have no problem with men who make babies they have no intention of caring for, then you're not listening very closely. (Big surprise. It's called "willful ignorance". Duh.) Nevertheless, men don't have abortions, so it's necessary to focus more attention on the people who do. If women would stop spreading their legs at the drop of a hat, it wouldn't matter if men were pigs or not.
Women are not the sexual gatekeepers. It is not our responsibility to "be the brakes", chick. Men have self control, just as much as we do. It still takes two to tango. It is not women's fault that men don't pay child support or act like dads. That is the fault of the men. Face fucking facts.
Blah the rest is just flaming and spewing insults.. I gotta go.. You are now on my ignore list. Have a nice day, flame girl.
