Fellow Centrists, Classical Liberals, Independents, etc. - We need to talk.

[eagle1462010]

This is what I see here in this circle jerk thread. LOL

... you sound like a partisan hack dear. I did say that this wouldn't apply to that type so you were warned.

Whatever..........there are lines in the dang sand........they attacked Americans for their beliefs...............there is no middle ground here.......

Just as this filthy last minute attack as they held on to the information since July............their tactics are beyond any negotiating with....................

NO NEGOTIATING with that................Period...........this has gone too far under the last administration............

I suggest if you are going into no mans land you better duck.................there will be fire coming across the lines.

So you suggest we open fire and start the civil war.

I say we try to vote these fuckers out of power first.

~shrug~

Of course we want to vote these assholes out of power...............but I'm not negotiating with them after the stuff they have done.........

There is NO NEGOTIATING WITH THAT..................they can go to hell.........I made sure that was clear.

 

[candycorn]

For those of you who may have missed my prior posts, I have been an independent my entire life, (voting nearly 30 years now.) If one looks at my sig they'll note where I lay on various political metrics. In general I refer to myself as a capitalist classical liberal; I'm bisexual, pro-choice, national capitalistic.

If you are in the "political situation" where you've kind of always had to essentially make concessions about what you believe in when you vote this message probably applies to you. [EDIT - note, if you're a partisan hack, this post probably doesn't apply to you heh]

We need to talk about what just happened with the Kavanaugh thing; the /principle/ of it. The D's could have started privately investigating this Ford case in July - they could have saved both Ford and Kavanaugh from the vitriol of making this case public and gotten to the /truth/ without all the hyperbolic bullshit. They /intentionally/ chose to destroy the lives and families of two people /simply/ to retain control of the SCOTUS at best, at worst they did it simply to "resist" the president.

A bit of an aside on Trump here; regardless of if you happen to like Trumps politics, as reasonable non-partisan's we know that Trump was chosen by the people and that there was no vote interference or anything that makes his election invalid, even at best - arguing that there were Russian ad campaigns - folks make their choice without anyone forcing them into it. Even if we want to entertain that "Russian's mislead the people with false claims and lies" that is certainly nothing new in politics, and effectually no different than the misleading and lies told by our own politicians of their opponents. The people voted of their own volition and Trump won.

Back to the Kavanaugh thing. So I didn't particularly care if he made it onto the SCOTUS honestly. I'm not a "fan" of him, he's got some rulings in the past I do not like; for example, the Patriot Act, the NSA recording and collecting all those phone calls - I was never entirely satisfied with the argument that "national security" is a good enough reason to invade the privacy of innocent American's without reason and necessity, even if I do recognize that it was/did indeed catch/stop terrorists. It was kind of one of those border-line issues for me where I wasn't quite feeling that the ends justified the means.

That's kind of what I want to talk about with you though, that "the ends justifying the means" thing...

What we just witnessed was the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation, and a complete discard of logical "credibility" and the "ends" part, keeping SCOTUS power or resisting Trump or whatever the hell was motivating the D's to discard those principles, and those two peoples lives/honor/etc, quite simply does /not/ justify the means in any way, shape, or form.

I am literally sick to my stomach. This past year has shown the most ridiculous and disgusting display of partisan hackery I've ever witnessed. Worse, this time, it's not the bumbling sheep followers, it's the ******* leaders who have completely abandoned, nay, in fact, spit in the face of, justice and all that is "right" for free American's.

We have witnessed these "leaders" /allowing/ physical violence against their political rivals - not the politicians who one could argue put themselves in the proverbial ring and open themselves up to nutcases, but THE ******* CITIZENS who's only "crime" is going to a political rally.

We have witnessed these "leaders" ACTIVELY CALLING for those attacks on INNOCENT CITIZENS who's only "crime" is taking a job with political opposition.

And yesterday, we learned that we have witnessed these "leaders" abandon the core values of this nation; that a man, who's only "crime" is being nominated to the SCOTUS by the president, and/or a woman, who's only "crime' was thinking/believing she was sexually assaulted, should /both/ be utterly destroyed simply to buy these "leaders" time...


This is no longer "politics as usual" and this cannot stand. (I have a husband, four sons, and likely grandsons some day that I'm thinking about here.)

I know our kind sometimes blows off mid-terms as "less important," but we really need to vote this time and as always, we must look at the whole picture when we do so.

And when you do vote, I ask that you ask yourself; what means justify what ends...

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

I’m in disagreement with some of it and think you’re spot-on in other areas. Lets look at it.

First and foremost, lets look at the Trump plank you brought up. He won. Hillary lost.

However, what i think you’ve seen in the Kav hearings is this. Think of the crappy stock pot of soup we have on the oven.

One ingredient is the 2016 election.
One ingredient is the Garland nomination that didn’t even get a Senatorial hearing.
One ingredient is the Kav hearings where Sen. Finestein lit a fuse by embargoing this letter from Dr. Ford until the end of the proceedings.

Mix it all together and we get this disgusting meal we have in front of us.

In the recipe I listed above,

Trump was the chef on one front. He had an advisor named Roger Stone who tweeted his knowledge of Podesta being hacked during the campaign. He also, at another time, tweeted priaise for Guccifer2.0 who was credited with hacking the DNC. That Stone was in the Trump campaign hierarchy is essentially proof that the campaign had an avenue to the hackers who hacked Podesta. During the campaign and several times since then at Trump campaign events, his supporters have chanted “lock her up”. He said during the debate that “you’d be in jail” to Ms. Clinton. Also during that campaign he volunteered to pay the legal bills for assaulters and showed reverence for the “good old days” when beatdowns of protesters were the norm.

Senator McConnell decided he would not have hearings on Obama’s nominee Garland which is another disgusting ingredient (if you’re sick to your stomach about Kav, you should have been on life support when this was taking place…perhaps you were? I looked for your outrage in your posting history; I saw no outrage whatsoever though). As far as I know, this was the only time in modern history where the Senate simply refused to hold a hearing, side stepping it’s Constitutional duty to advise and consent.

And now Sen Finestein adds in her own special touch of unbelievable partisanship and hold this letter she received in July until the end of the hearings on a committee where she is the ranking member. That the democrats in the Senate have not publicly castigated her for this is not surprising but it does speak to the absurd nature of our politics. Not one adult in the nation could possibly condone this action in and of itself (I’ll defend it from a narrow viewpoint in a moment). It was designed for one thing and one thing only; to destroy Kav’s life. That Dr. Ford allowed herself to be used as a prop in this almost comedic manner is bewildering in the extreme and I find myself on very uneasy ground thinking that there must be some sort of fiduciary payoff that caused this. Why else allow yourself to be dragged through the mud like this when, from a political standpoint, you can’t stop the nomination.

Mix the works of all three chefs together and you end up with this tepid gumbo of crap we have on the stove now. I fear the stench will linger for decades until we do one thing; give the Constitution a voice where it is currently silent. If you want to talk about the importance of the mid-terms; this is the one thing that really truly matters; changing the rules of the Congress so disgusting acts like we have seen recently are not possible. Did you know that the Senate could not hold hearings on the Secretary of State, Defense, Attorney General as well? True story Sister. If Mattis decided he was going to just call it a day or, God forbid, he passed away, the Senate could simply refuse to seat a SECDEF. Sounds unthinkable right? Well, they did so with a SCOTUS nominee; what makes you think they wouldn’t for SECDEF? We need to change the rulebook so players like the crew we have now are marginalized.

As for your post, good post. Politics as usual doesn’t include hackings, chants of locking up your political opponent, leaving the supreme court vacant for upwards of half a year. The Kav hearings are just another battleground in the partisanship war. If you’re a Democrat and speaking from a purely political standpoint, Finestein’s move was fast pitch hardball which was totally called for. It was incredibly unfair but then again so was the hacking, chanting, and refusal to hold hearings. The Republicans shouldn’t complain about the severity of tactics when they employed them in the past. That Kav was the victim is incredibly unfair.
I hope that the Senate will pass a resolution condemning the actions of Sen Finestein and I would hope that there would be broad bi-partisan support for such a resolution. She is to be reprimanded as severely as can be by the body in which she serves.

Healing the body has to start with some measure of pain. The first move would be to condemn one of your own and admit you were wrong. Dems…now is your chance to be the change you want to see in the world.

 

[sparky]

two words>

Term Limits

~S~

 

[EverCurious]

This is what I see here in this circle jerk thread. LOL

... you sound like a partisan hack dear. I did say that this wouldn't apply to that type so you were warned.

Whatever..........there are lines in the dang sand........they attacked Americans for their beliefs...............there is no middle ground here.......

Just as this filthy last minute attack as they held on to the information since July............their tactics are beyond any negotiating with....................

NO NEGOTIATING with that................Period...........this has gone too far under the last administration............

I suggest if you are going into no mans land you better duck.................there will be fire coming across the lines.

So you suggest we open fire and start the civil war.

I say we try to vote these fuckers out of power first.

~shrug~

Of course we want to vote these assholes out of power...............but I'm not negotiating with them after the stuff they have done.........

There is NO NEGOTIATING WITH THAT..................they can go to hell.........I made sure that was clear.

I get it. I'm not sure I'm /there/ yet. Still deciding heh

 

[candycorn]

This is what I see here in this circle jerk thread. LOL

... you sound like a partisan hack dear. I did say that this wouldn't apply to that type so you were warned.

Whatever..........there are lines in the dang sand........they attacked Americans for their beliefs...............there is no middle ground here.......

Just as this filthy last minute attack as they held on to the information since July............their tactics are beyond any negotiating with....................

NO NEGOTIATING with that................Period...........this has gone too far under the last administration............

I suggest if you are going into no mans land you better duck.................there will be fire coming across the lines.

Mac1958 must be more of that “hate from the left” you were talking about. LOL

 

[candycorn]

Well here is the thing. First we have no idea who actually released Ford's identity.

Secondly, if we do dodge a bullet on Kavanaugh, the hearing exposed that he is not as non-partisan as a judge is supposed to be. He has a true hatred of the left, and actually used a conspiracy theory that is unproven, that the Clintons are behind this whole thing. He has no idea if that is true or not, and he used it in his hearing. We don't need conspiracy theory nutjobs serving on the Supreme Court.

Lastly, as a judge he should have known better than to say that statements made by Mark Judge and the other person Ford said was at the party, backed up his statement that he was never there. In fact that isn't true. They said they don't remember the party, that isn't the same as saying it didn't happen and that the party didn't happen. Those are two totally different things. A judge that is going to serve on the highest court in the land should know better, and if he does know better, but instead made that statement, then he was being dishonest.

This isn't exactly a debate post... Everyone is welcome to whatever opinion and whatever facts they find most compelling.

I am simply asking that folks decide where their principles lay - and to go vote for what they believe in.

And people should vote based on what is best for society as a whole, not what their party tells them to. Republicans are saying that Democrats are being so hard on Kavanaugh simply because he is being appointed by Trump. That's not true at all. There was no accusations or anything like this AT ALL with Gorsuch. The real issue here is, it's much easier for the Republicans to blame this on partisanship, and use that as a backdoor from the situation and to pump their base, than to take the time to find out if the accusations are true or not. It's plain as day.

I don’t think this would have been so bad if McConnell had not tried to rush this process, which for other nominees took much longer (Kagan was83 days I think), refused to allow important material to be released an what material was released came one big data dump with no time examine. Had he not insisted on a rush, there would have been time to quietly and thoroughly vet EVERYTHING. Ford’s name should never have been leaked and neither should the nature of the charges until an investigation was complete.

Everyone has mud on their faces here including theRepublicans and Kavanaugh.

You want to talk about a last minute data dump yet you're unconcerned about DiFi holding onto Fords ridiculous story for damn near two months only to drop it on our laps at the last second.

Coyote said “everyone”.

 

[candycorn]

two words>

Term Limits

~S~

Changing the players doesn’t change the game.

50 years from now, there will be a majority leader pulling the same crap the current crop are pulling. The only difference will be the name on the back of the jersey.

 

[SweetSue92]

You seriously need to step off son. I'm not in the mood for your shit.

I don't give a **** what you are in the mood for *****.

You toss around homosexuality and the woman card as if it entitles you to some kind of special status. It doesn't and you can get bent.

Exactly where did I say it "entitled" me to "special status"?

You called me a ***. "***" is a "male homosexual" term. I corrected you. I'm a biseuxal female.

A stupid bisexual female, playing identity politics.

Where exactly?

You are clearly clueless about my politics. You're coming off as an unhinged lunatic who doesn't even understand what's being said in this thread.

I'll clarify some more so you can show the entire board what a complete knee jerk partisan **** you really are son:

I don't believe the baker should have baked the cake.
Transgenders in the bathroom is the stupidest ******* thing ever.
There are only two genders.
Homosexual's should /not/ be in the military because it's a lifetime expense for transition drugs and a major distraction during war.
SSM was questionable being SCOTUS pushed, I think it should have been left to the states.
I don't get why we couldn't just call SSM a "civil union" but activists ruin ******* everything by being dicks (kinda like you are being actually)
I despise third-wave feminists, they are ruining everything I fought for on women's rights.
Abortion is not a ******* "reproductive" right.
Roe vs Wade was a complete **** up, should have been left to the states.
Transitions for children?! **** that shit, child abuse.
Get the teaching gay shit out of public schools - parents choice to teach just like religion is.

Shall I go on?

You can say whatever you like. It is your OP where YOU included your homosexuality as part of your political description.
I made my point and it was quite clear. Heterosexuals don't go out of their way to describe their sexual proclivities in an attempt to garner special attention they otherwise don't deserve.

You may not see it but it is quite obvious. Identity politics are a plague upon our nation.

I think she was saying that she is bisexual but not a Leftist. As you might expect. I don't think she was attempting to check any "identity politics" boxes. Back off! Sheesh

 

[candycorn]

This is what I see here in this circle jerk thread. LOL

... you sound like a partisan hack dear. I did say that this wouldn't apply to that type so you were warned.

Whatever..........there are lines in the dang sand........they attacked Americans for their beliefs...............there is no middle ground here.......

Just as this filthy last minute attack as they held on to the information since July............their tactics are beyond any negotiating with....................

NO NEGOTIATING with that................Period...........this has gone too far under the last administration............

I suggest if you are going into no mans land you better duck.................there will be fire coming across the lines.

So you suggest we open fire and start the civil war.

I say we try to vote these fuckers out of power first.

~shrug~

Of course we want to vote these assholes out of power...............but I'm not negotiating with them after the stuff they have done.........

There is NO NEGOTIATING WITH THAT..................they can go to hell.........I made sure that was clear.

I get it. I'm not sure I'm /there/ yet. Still deciding heh

When deciding if you’re “there”, half of the nation doesn’t even vote. Those who are registered and vote are about 6 in 10 I believe. So theoretically, of that 6 in ten 3.1 to 3.3 is your “majority”. If you wish to get into a hot war with 3.1 to 3.3 out of 10, you will lose. Put another way, 60-70 million voted for the President who is in power at any given time. The nation is at about 340 million right now. You’re seriously outnumbered. Good luck.

 

[candycorn]

I don't give a **** what you are in the mood for *****.

You toss around homosexuality and the woman card as if it entitles you to some kind of special status. It doesn't and you can get bent.

Exactly where did I say it "entitled" me to "special status"?

You called me a ***. "***" is a "male homosexual" term. I corrected you. I'm a biseuxal female.

A stupid bisexual female, playing identity politics.

Where exactly?

You are clearly clueless about my politics. You're coming off as an unhinged lunatic who doesn't even understand what's being said in this thread.

I'll clarify some more so you can show the entire board what a complete knee jerk partisan **** you really are son:

I don't believe the baker should have baked the cake.
Transgenders in the bathroom is the stupidest ******* thing ever.
There are only two genders.
Homosexual's should /not/ be in the military because it's a lifetime expense for transition drugs and a major distraction during war.
SSM was questionable being SCOTUS pushed, I think it should have been left to the states.
I don't get why we couldn't just call SSM a "civil union" but activists ruin ******* everything by being dicks (kinda like you are being actually)
I despise third-wave feminists, they are ruining everything I fought for on women's rights.
Abortion is not a ******* "reproductive" right.
Roe vs Wade was a complete **** up, should have been left to the states.
Transitions for children?! **** that shit, child abuse.
Get the teaching gay shit out of public schools - parents choice to teach just like religion is.

Shall I go on?

You can say whatever you like. It is your OP where YOU included your homosexuality as part of your political description.
I made my point and it was quite clear. Heterosexuals don't go out of their way to describe their sexual proclivities in an attempt to garner special attention they otherwise don't deserve.

You may not see it but it is quite obvious. Identity politics are a plague upon our nation.

I think she was saying that she is bisexual but not a Leftist. As you might expect. I don't think she was attempting to check any "identity politics" boxes. Back off! Sheesh

Its crap posts like Grampa Murked U that lead to the breakdown of every discussion on this board. We had a discussion the other day about Woodward’s book where the OP expressly said “those who have read the book” only should comment. About 60 posts into it; there were about 3 discussing the book. I asked the mods to “clean up” the thread. Nothing happened. The board is a reflection of the nation…leaders who are not responsive and “citizens” who are not concerned about the greater good.

 

[SweetSue92]

For those of you who may have missed my prior posts, I have been an independent my entire life, (voting nearly 30 years now.) If one looks at my sig they'll note where I lay on various political metrics. In general I refer to myself as a capitalist classical liberal; I'm bisexual, pro-choice, national capitalistic.

If you are in the "political situation" where you've kind of always had to essentially make concessions about what you believe in when you vote this message probably applies to you. [EDIT - note, if you're a partisan hack, this post probably doesn't apply to you heh]

We need to talk about what just happened with the Kavanaugh thing; the /principle/ of it. The D's could have started privately investigating this Ford case in July - they could have saved both Ford and Kavanaugh from the vitriol of making this case public and gotten to the /truth/ without all the hyperbolic bullshit. They /intentionally/ chose to destroy the lives and families of two people /simply/ to retain control of the SCOTUS at best, at worst they did it simply to "resist" the president.

A bit of an aside on Trump here; regardless of if you happen to like Trumps politics, as reasonable non-partisan's we know that Trump was chosen by the people and that there was no vote interference or anything that makes his election invalid, even at best - arguing that there were Russian ad campaigns - folks make their choice without anyone forcing them into it. Even if we want to entertain that "Russian's mislead the people with false claims and lies" that is certainly nothing new in politics, and effectually no different than the misleading and lies told by our own politicians of their opponents. The people voted of their own volition and Trump won.

Back to the Kavanaugh thing. So I didn't particularly care if he made it onto the SCOTUS honestly. I'm not a "fan" of him, he's got some rulings in the past I do not like; for example, the Patriot Act, the NSA recording and collecting all those phone calls - I was never entirely satisfied with the argument that "national security" is a good enough reason to invade the privacy of innocent American's without reason and necessity, even if I do recognize that it was/did indeed catch/stop terrorists. It was kind of one of those border-line issues for me where I wasn't quite feeling that the ends justified the means.

That's kind of what I want to talk about with you though, that "the ends justifying the means" thing...

What we just witnessed was the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation, and a complete discard of logical "credibility" and the "ends" part, keeping SCOTUS power or resisting Trump or whatever the hell was motivating the D's to discard those principles, and those two peoples lives/honor/etc, quite simply does /not/ justify the means in any way, shape, or form.

I am literally sick to my stomach. This past year has shown the most ridiculous and disgusting display of partisan hackery I've ever witnessed. Worse, this time, it's not the bumbling sheep followers, it's the ******* leaders who have completely abandoned, nay, in fact, spit in the face of, justice and all that is "right" for free American's.

We have witnessed these "leaders" /allowing/ physical violence against their political rivals - not the politicians who one could argue put themselves in the proverbial ring and open themselves up to nutcases, but THE ******* CITIZENS who's only "crime" is going to a political rally.

We have witnessed these "leaders" ACTIVELY CALLING for those attacks on INNOCENT CITIZENS who's only "crime" is taking a job with political opposition.

And yesterday, we learned that we have witnessed these "leaders" abandon the core values of this nation; that a man, who's only "crime" is being nominated to the SCOTUS by the president, and/or a woman, who's only "crime' was thinking/believing she was sexually assaulted, should /both/ be utterly destroyed simply to buy these "leaders" time...


This is no longer "politics as usual" and this cannot stand. (I have a husband, four sons, and likely grandsons some day that I'm thinking about here.)

I know our kind sometimes blows off mid-terms as "less important," but we really need to vote this time and as always, we must look at the whole picture when we do so.

And when you do vote, I ask that you ask yourself; what means justify what ends...

I appreciate this thoughtful post. I'd like to add another angle to it.

Whether knowing it or not, our parties have seemed to divide clearly into the "emotional/hysterical" and the "rational/cold" (the former being the better quality; the latter the negative spin on it). It's not difficult to see that the Democrats for decades now have operated on pure emotion. You must "believe all women" because they hurt. Etc. The examples are legion. Think of the children; don't throw granny over the cliff. They hyperventilate from one crisis to another. Although Ford kept it outwardly together, this was her case on Thurs. She had no facts, no evidence. She only told a "story" in her little girl victimized voice, asking for caffeine, being deferential to everyone.

Kavanaugh was uncharacteristically emotional but his case was not. He emphatically denied the events and made a rational case why this was not him: from his career, his past, his family. He did lay out what this was doing to his family--and that's where he lost it--but mostly, his case was rational.

This is the dichotomy of our two parties. The Democrats is all Feminine, don't worry about money or facts or responsibilities; if it's "mean" we can't have it; if it "hurts" we won't allow it; we will cocoon you from the big bad world. (Try not to notice, of course, how they treat people who don't agree with their Feminine ways)

But this has never been meant to be the gov't role, and it is ruining our Republic.

This is not Republicans. But those who want the soft womb of Democrats just think Republicans Are Mean.

 

[EverCurious]

For those of you who may have missed my prior posts, I have been an independent my entire life, (voting nearly 30 years now.) If one looks at my sig they'll note where I lay on various political metrics. In general I refer to myself as a capitalist classical liberal; I'm bisexual, pro-choice, national capitalistic.

If you are in the "political situation" where you've kind of always had to essentially make concessions about what you believe in when you vote this message probably applies to you. [EDIT - note, if you're a partisan hack, this post probably doesn't apply to you heh]

We need to talk about what just happened with the Kavanaugh thing; the /principle/ of it. The D's could have started privately investigating this Ford case in July - they could have saved both Ford and Kavanaugh from the vitriol of making this case public and gotten to the /truth/ without all the hyperbolic bullshit. They /intentionally/ chose to destroy the lives and families of two people /simply/ to retain control of the SCOTUS at best, at worst they did it simply to "resist" the president.

A bit of an aside on Trump here; regardless of if you happen to like Trumps politics, as reasonable non-partisan's we know that Trump was chosen by the people and that there was no vote interference or anything that makes his election invalid, even at best - arguing that there were Russian ad campaigns - folks make their choice without anyone forcing them into it. Even if we want to entertain that "Russian's mislead the people with false claims and lies" that is certainly nothing new in politics, and effectually no different than the misleading and lies told by our own politicians of their opponents. The people voted of their own volition and Trump won.

Back to the Kavanaugh thing. So I didn't particularly care if he made it onto the SCOTUS honestly. I'm not a "fan" of him, he's got some rulings in the past I do not like; for example, the Patriot Act, the NSA recording and collecting all those phone calls - I was never entirely satisfied with the argument that "national security" is a good enough reason to invade the privacy of innocent American's without reason and necessity, even if I do recognize that it was/did indeed catch/stop terrorists. It was kind of one of those border-line issues for me where I wasn't quite feeling that the ends justified the means.

That's kind of what I want to talk about with you though, that "the ends justifying the means" thing...

What we just witnessed was the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation, and a complete discard of logical "credibility" and the "ends" part, keeping SCOTUS power or resisting Trump or whatever the hell was motivating the D's to discard those principles, and those two peoples lives/honor/etc, quite simply does /not/ justify the means in any way, shape, or form.

I am literally sick to my stomach. This past year has shown the most ridiculous and disgusting display of partisan hackery I've ever witnessed. Worse, this time, it's not the bumbling sheep followers, it's the ******* leaders who have completely abandoned, nay, in fact, spit in the face of, justice and all that is "right" for free American's.

We have witnessed these "leaders" /allowing/ physical violence against their political rivals - not the politicians who one could argue put themselves in the proverbial ring and open themselves up to nutcases, but THE ******* CITIZENS who's only "crime" is going to a political rally.

We have witnessed these "leaders" ACTIVELY CALLING for those attacks on INNOCENT CITIZENS who's only "crime" is taking a job with political opposition.

And yesterday, we learned that we have witnessed these "leaders" abandon the core values of this nation; that a man, who's only "crime" is being nominated to the SCOTUS by the president, and/or a woman, who's only "crime' was thinking/believing she was sexually assaulted, should /both/ be utterly destroyed simply to buy these "leaders" time...


This is no longer "politics as usual" and this cannot stand. (I have a husband, four sons, and likely grandsons some day that I'm thinking about here.)

I know our kind sometimes blows off mid-terms as "less important," but we really need to vote this time and as always, we must look at the whole picture when we do so.

And when you do vote, I ask that you ask yourself; what means justify what ends...

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

I’m in disagreement with some of it and think you’re spot-on in other areas. Lets look at it.

First and foremost, lets look at the Trump plank you brought up. He won. Hillary lost.

However, what i think you’ve seen in the Kav hearings is this. Think of the crappy stock pot of soup we have on the oven.

One ingredient is the 2016 election.
One ingredient is the Garland nomination that didn’t even get a Senatorial hearing.
One ingredient is the Kav hearings where Sen. Finestein lit a fuse by embargoing this letter from Dr. Ford until the end of the proceedings.

Mix it all together and we get this disgusting meal we have in front of us.

In the recipe I listed above,

Trump was the chef on one front. He had an advisor named Roger Stone who tweeted his knowledge of Podesta being hacked during the campaign. He also, at another time, tweeted priaise for Guccifer2.0 who was credited with hacking the DNC. That Stone was in the Trump campaign hierarchy is essentially proof that the campaign had an avenue to the hackers who hacked Podesta. During the campaign and several times since then at Trump campaign events, his supporters have chanted “lock her up”. He said during the debate that “you’d be in jail” to Ms. Clinton. Also during that campaign he volunteered to pay the legal bills for assaulters and showed reverence for the “good old days” when beatdowns of protesters were the norm.

Senator McConnell decided he would not have hearings on Obama’s nominee Garland which is another disgusting ingredient (if you’re sick to your stomach about Kav, you should have been on life support when this was taking place…perhaps you were? I looked for your outrage in your posting history; I saw no outrage whatsoever though). As far as I know, this was the only time in modern history where the Senate simply refused to hold a hearing, side stepping it’s Constitutional duty to advise and consent.

And now Sen Finestein adds in her own special touch of unbelievable partisanship and hold this letter she received in July until the end of the hearings on a committee where she is the ranking member. That the democrats in the Senate have not publicly castigated her for this is not surprising but it does speak to the absurd nature of our politics. Not one adult in the nation could possibly condone this action in and of itself (I’ll defend it from a narrow viewpoint in a moment). It was designed for one thing and one thing only; to destroy Kav’s life. That Dr. Ford allowed herself to be used as a prop in this almost comedic manner is bewildering in the extreme and I find myself on very uneasy ground thinking that there must be some sort of fiduciary payoff that caused this. Why else allow yourself to be dragged through the mud like this when, from a political standpoint, you can’t stop the nomination.

Mix the works of all three chefs together and you end up with this tepid gumbo of crap we have on the stove now. I fear the stench will linger for decades until we do one thing; give the Constitution a voice where it is currently silent. If you want to talk about the importance of the mid-terms; this is the one thing that really truly matters; changing the rules of the Congress so disgusting acts like we have seen recently are not possible. Did you know that the Senate could not hold hearings on the Secretary of State, Defense, Attorney General as well? True story Sister. If Mattis decided he was going to just call it a day or, God forbid, he passed away, the Senate could simply refuse to seat a SECDEF. Sounds unthinkable right? Well, they did so with a SCOTUS nominee; what makes you think they wouldn’t for SECDEF? We need to change the rulebook so players like the crew we have now are marginalized.

As for your post, good post. Politics as usual doesn’t include hackings, chants of locking up your political opponent, leaving the supreme court vacant for upwards of half a year. The Kav hearings are just another battleground in the partisanship war. If you’re a Democrat and speaking from a purely political standpoint, Finestein’s move was fast pitch hardball which was totally called for. It was incredibly unfair but then again so was the hacking, chanting, and refusal to hold hearings. The Republicans shouldn’t complain about the severity of tactics when they employed them in the past. That Kav was the victim is incredibly unfair.
I hope that the Senate will pass a resolution condemning the actions of Sen Finestein and I would hope that there would be broad bi-partisan support for such a resolution. She is to be reprimanded as severely as can be by the body in which she serves.

Healing the body has to start with some measure of pain. The first move would be to condemn one of your own and admit you were wrong. Dems…now is your chance to be the change you want to see in the world.

I disagree on your Trump conspiracy.

Also on the material facts re Garland:

To wit from the NY Times: “Senator Moran called Senator Grassley to discuss his position,” said a statement released by Mr. Moran’s office on Friday. “As Senator Moran has said, he is opposed to President Obama’s Supreme Court nominee. He has examined Judge Garland’s record and didn’t need hearings to conclude that the nominee’s judicial philosophy, disregard for Second Amendment rights and sympathy for federal government bureaucracy make Garland unacceptable to serve on the Supreme Court.”

Garland had /zero/ path to SCOTUS because of her anti-constitutional views that the /majority/ rejected. To have a hearing would have been a waste of time and tax payer money that Moran sought to avoid. There is absolutely no law that requires a hearing for a nominee that doesn't have the votes. That also has /zero/ ******* relationship to what just happened to Kavanaugh, and Ford too, ******* zero. The fact that you even remotely think it does just shows how out of touch with the facts of what's happened you are and/or that you are a partisan hack looking for excuses for your party of favor. Take your pick.

I do agree on the third "chef" and your ultimate "cake" there.

One exception though is the chants of "lock her up" - if you understood that many, many folks already felt that Hillary fucked over the justice system you'd get it. Now mix in "corrupted FBI agents," and the "guilty until proven innocent" and start the oven. This last injustice just puts the final nail in the coffin for a shit ton of folks hoping/believing the D's had a shred of "justice" left in them...

And again, hacking, chanting, and refusing to have a hearing have /zero/ ******* comparison to literally destroying a man and his family based on nothing but an accusation that is full of holes. Yet again, the fact that you don't recognize that just shows either how out of touch you are or that you're a hack looking for excuses. Take your pick.

 

[EverCurious]

... you sound like a partisan hack dear. I did say that this wouldn't apply to that type so you were warned.

Whatever..........there are lines in the dang sand........they attacked Americans for their beliefs...............there is no middle ground here.......

Just as this filthy last minute attack as they held on to the information since July............their tactics are beyond any negotiating with....................

NO NEGOTIATING with that................Period...........this has gone too far under the last administration............

I suggest if you are going into no mans land you better duck.................there will be fire coming across the lines.

So you suggest we open fire and start the civil war.

I say we try to vote these fuckers out of power first.

~shrug~

Of course we want to vote these assholes out of power...............but I'm not negotiating with them after the stuff they have done.........

There is NO NEGOTIATING WITH THAT..................they can go to hell.........I made sure that was clear.

I get it. I'm not sure I'm /there/ yet. Still deciding heh

When deciding if you’re “there”, half of the nation doesn’t even vote. Those who are registered and vote are about 6 in 10 I believe. So theoretically, of that 6 in ten 3.1 to 3.3 is your “majority”. If you wish to get into a hot war with 3.1 to 3.3 out of 10, you will lose. Put another way, 60-70 million voted for the President who is in power at any given time. The nation is at about 340 million right now. You’re seriously outnumbered. Good luck.

Nice ego. You seem to forget who the president is right now.

This shit motivated a crap ton of middle ground folks to go vote I can tell you that.

 

[EverCurious]

Exactly where did I say it "entitled" me to "special status"?

You called me a ***. "***" is a "male homosexual" term. I corrected you. I'm a biseuxal female.

A stupid bisexual female, playing identity politics.

Where exactly?

You are clearly clueless about my politics. You're coming off as an unhinged lunatic who doesn't even understand what's being said in this thread.

I'll clarify some more so you can show the entire board what a complete knee jerk partisan **** you really are son:

I don't believe the baker should have baked the cake.
Transgenders in the bathroom is the stupidest ******* thing ever.
There are only two genders.
Homosexual's should /not/ be in the military because it's a lifetime expense for transition drugs and a major distraction during war.
SSM was questionable being SCOTUS pushed, I think it should have been left to the states.
I don't get why we couldn't just call SSM a "civil union" but activists ruin ******* everything by being dicks (kinda like you are being actually)
I despise third-wave feminists, they are ruining everything I fought for on women's rights.
Abortion is not a ******* "reproductive" right.
Roe vs Wade was a complete **** up, should have been left to the states.
Transitions for children?! **** that shit, child abuse.
Get the teaching gay shit out of public schools - parents choice to teach just like religion is.

Shall I go on?

You can say whatever you like. It is your OP where YOU included your homosexuality as part of your political description.
I made my point and it was quite clear. Heterosexuals don't go out of their way to describe their sexual proclivities in an attempt to garner special attention they otherwise don't deserve.

You may not see it but it is quite obvious. Identity politics are a plague upon our nation.

I think she was saying that she is bisexual but not a Leftist. As you might expect. I don't think she was attempting to check any "identity politics" boxes. Back off! Sheesh

Its crap posts like Grampa Murked U that lead to the breakdown of every discussion on this board. We had a discussion the other day about Woodward’s book where the OP expressly said “those who have read the book” only should comment. About 60 posts into it; there were about 3 discussing the book. I asked the mods to “clean up” the thread. Nothing happened. The board is a reflection of the nation…leaders who are not responsive and “citizens” who are not concerned about the greater good.

Agreed with the yelling, but that's kind of to be expected on a political forum. It's the internet, that's what the internet does, and had done since it started.

I'd say the actual problem is that the leaders are too busy responding to "citizens" who have no clue what is going on and rage and riot about "the greater good" without knowing what that actually is.

 

[Hiryuu]

I appreciate this thoughtful post. I'd like to add another angle to it.

Whether knowing it or not, our parties have seemed to divide clearly into the "emotional/hysterical" and the "rational/cold" (the former being the better quality; the latter the negative spin on it). It's not difficult to see that the Democrats for decades now have operated on pure emotion. You must "believe all women" because they hurt. Etc. The examples are legion. Think of the children; don't throw granny over the cliff. They hyperventilate from one crisis to another. Although Ford kept it outwardly together, this was her case on Thurs. She had no facts, no evidence. She only told a "story" in her little girl victimized voice, asking for caffeine, being deferential to everyone.

Kavanaugh was uncharacteristically emotional but his case was not. He emphatically denied the events and made a rational case why this was not him: from his career, his past, his family. He did lay out what this was doing to his family--and that's where he lost it--but mostly, his case was rational.

This is the dichotomy of our two parties. The Democrats is all Feminine, don't worry about money or facts or responsibilities; if it's "mean" we can't have it; if it "hurts" we won't allow it; we will cocoon you from the big bad world. (Try not to notice, of course, how they treat people who don't agree with their Feminine ways)

But this has never been meant to be the gov't role, and it is ruining our Republic.

This is not Republicans. But those who want the soft womb of Democrats just think Republicans Are Mean.

Most children think their parents are mean when they don't give them what they want, no matter how hard they kick and scream. Only an idiot would suggest a parent open bipartisan negotiations with a 3 year old in the checkout line at the grocery store. Sometimes a timeout works better than being a centrist.

 

[candycorn]

For those of you who may have missed my prior posts, I have been an independent my entire life, (voting nearly 30 years now.) If one looks at my sig they'll note where I lay on various political metrics. In general I refer to myself as a capitalist classical liberal; I'm bisexual, pro-choice, national capitalistic.

If you are in the "political situation" where you've kind of always had to essentially make concessions about what you believe in when you vote this message probably applies to you. [EDIT - note, if you're a partisan hack, this post probably doesn't apply to you heh]

We need to talk about what just happened with the Kavanaugh thing; the /principle/ of it. The D's could have started privately investigating this Ford case in July - they could have saved both Ford and Kavanaugh from the vitriol of making this case public and gotten to the /truth/ without all the hyperbolic bullshit. They /intentionally/ chose to destroy the lives and families of two people /simply/ to retain control of the SCOTUS at best, at worst they did it simply to "resist" the president.

A bit of an aside on Trump here; regardless of if you happen to like Trumps politics, as reasonable non-partisan's we know that Trump was chosen by the people and that there was no vote interference or anything that makes his election invalid, even at best - arguing that there were Russian ad campaigns - folks make their choice without anyone forcing them into it. Even if we want to entertain that "Russian's mislead the people with false claims and lies" that is certainly nothing new in politics, and effectually no different than the misleading and lies told by our own politicians of their opponents. The people voted of their own volition and Trump won.

Back to the Kavanaugh thing. So I didn't particularly care if he made it onto the SCOTUS honestly. I'm not a "fan" of him, he's got some rulings in the past I do not like; for example, the Patriot Act, the NSA recording and collecting all those phone calls - I was never entirely satisfied with the argument that "national security" is a good enough reason to invade the privacy of innocent American's without reason and necessity, even if I do recognize that it was/did indeed catch/stop terrorists. It was kind of one of those border-line issues for me where I wasn't quite feeling that the ends justified the means.

That's kind of what I want to talk about with you though, that "the ends justifying the means" thing...

What we just witnessed was the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation, and a complete discard of logical "credibility" and the "ends" part, keeping SCOTUS power or resisting Trump or whatever the hell was motivating the D's to discard those principles, and those two peoples lives/honor/etc, quite simply does /not/ justify the means in any way, shape, or form.

I am literally sick to my stomach. This past year has shown the most ridiculous and disgusting display of partisan hackery I've ever witnessed. Worse, this time, it's not the bumbling sheep followers, it's the ******* leaders who have completely abandoned, nay, in fact, spit in the face of, justice and all that is "right" for free American's.

We have witnessed these "leaders" /allowing/ physical violence against their political rivals - not the politicians who one could argue put themselves in the proverbial ring and open themselves up to nutcases, but THE ******* CITIZENS who's only "crime" is going to a political rally.

We have witnessed these "leaders" ACTIVELY CALLING for those attacks on INNOCENT CITIZENS who's only "crime" is taking a job with political opposition.

And yesterday, we learned that we have witnessed these "leaders" abandon the core values of this nation; that a man, who's only "crime" is being nominated to the SCOTUS by the president, and/or a woman, who's only "crime' was thinking/believing she was sexually assaulted, should /both/ be utterly destroyed simply to buy these "leaders" time...


This is no longer "politics as usual" and this cannot stand. (I have a husband, four sons, and likely grandsons some day that I'm thinking about here.)

I know our kind sometimes blows off mid-terms as "less important," but we really need to vote this time and as always, we must look at the whole picture when we do so.

And when you do vote, I ask that you ask yourself; what means justify what ends...

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

I’m in disagreement with some of it and think you’re spot-on in other areas. Lets look at it.

First and foremost, lets look at the Trump plank you brought up. He won. Hillary lost.

However, what i think you’ve seen in the Kav hearings is this. Think of the crappy stock pot of soup we have on the oven.

One ingredient is the 2016 election.
One ingredient is the Garland nomination that didn’t even get a Senatorial hearing.
One ingredient is the Kav hearings where Sen. Finestein lit a fuse by embargoing this letter from Dr. Ford until the end of the proceedings.

Mix it all together and we get this disgusting meal we have in front of us.

In the recipe I listed above,

Trump was the chef on one front. He had an advisor named Roger Stone who tweeted his knowledge of Podesta being hacked during the campaign. He also, at another time, tweeted priaise for Guccifer2.0 who was credited with hacking the DNC. That Stone was in the Trump campaign hierarchy is essentially proof that the campaign had an avenue to the hackers who hacked Podesta. During the campaign and several times since then at Trump campaign events, his supporters have chanted “lock her up”. He said during the debate that “you’d be in jail” to Ms. Clinton. Also during that campaign he volunteered to pay the legal bills for assaulters and showed reverence for the “good old days” when beatdowns of protesters were the norm.

Senator McConnell decided he would not have hearings on Obama’s nominee Garland which is another disgusting ingredient (if you’re sick to your stomach about Kav, you should have been on life support when this was taking place…perhaps you were? I looked for your outrage in your posting history; I saw no outrage whatsoever though). As far as I know, this was the only time in modern history where the Senate simply refused to hold a hearing, side stepping it’s Constitutional duty to advise and consent.

And now Sen Finestein adds in her own special touch of unbelievable partisanship and hold this letter she received in July until the end of the hearings on a committee where she is the ranking member. That the democrats in the Senate have not publicly castigated her for this is not surprising but it does speak to the absurd nature of our politics. Not one adult in the nation could possibly condone this action in and of itself (I’ll defend it from a narrow viewpoint in a moment). It was designed for one thing and one thing only; to destroy Kav’s life. That Dr. Ford allowed herself to be used as a prop in this almost comedic manner is bewildering in the extreme and I find myself on very uneasy ground thinking that there must be some sort of fiduciary payoff that caused this. Why else allow yourself to be dragged through the mud like this when, from a political standpoint, you can’t stop the nomination.

Mix the works of all three chefs together and you end up with this tepid gumbo of crap we have on the stove now. I fear the stench will linger for decades until we do one thing; give the Constitution a voice where it is currently silent. If you want to talk about the importance of the mid-terms; this is the one thing that really truly matters; changing the rules of the Congress so disgusting acts like we have seen recently are not possible. Did you know that the Senate could not hold hearings on the Secretary of State, Defense, Attorney General as well? True story Sister. If Mattis decided he was going to just call it a day or, God forbid, he passed away, the Senate could simply refuse to seat a SECDEF. Sounds unthinkable right? Well, they did so with a SCOTUS nominee; what makes you think they wouldn’t for SECDEF? We need to change the rulebook so players like the crew we have now are marginalized.

As for your post, good post. Politics as usual doesn’t include hackings, chants of locking up your political opponent, leaving the supreme court vacant for upwards of half a year. The Kav hearings are just another battleground in the partisanship war. If you’re a Democrat and speaking from a purely political standpoint, Finestein’s move was fast pitch hardball which was totally called for. It was incredibly unfair but then again so was the hacking, chanting, and refusal to hold hearings. The Republicans shouldn’t complain about the severity of tactics when they employed them in the past. That Kav was the victim is incredibly unfair.
I hope that the Senate will pass a resolution condemning the actions of Sen Finestein and I would hope that there would be broad bi-partisan support for such a resolution. She is to be reprimanded as severely as can be by the body in which she serves.

Healing the body has to start with some measure of pain. The first move would be to condemn one of your own and admit you were wrong. Dems…now is your chance to be the change you want to see in the world.

I disagree on your Trump conspiracy.

As is your right of course. I'm not sure how. You have a Trump campaign official who has knowledge of Podesta being hacked before the hacked documents were released. Such knowledge proves he was in contact with the hackers; if you believe that Roger Stone was acting on his own, you can I guess. I wonder if you'd be so obtuse if Clinton's team had contact with hackers who hacked Trump though.

Also on the material facts re Garland:

To wit from the NY Times: “Senator Moran called Senator Grassley to discuss his position,” said a statement released by Mr. Moran’s office on Friday. “As Senator Moran has said, he is opposed to President Obama’s Supreme Court nominee. He has examined Judge Garland’s record and didn’t need hearings to conclude that the nominee’s judicial philosophy, disregard for Second Amendment rights and sympathy for federal government bureaucracy make Garland unacceptable to serve on the Supreme Court.”

Garland had /zero/ path to SCOTUS because of her anti-constitutional views that the /majority/ rejected. To have a hearing would have been a waste of time and tax payer money that Moran sought to avoid. There is absolutely no law that requires a hearing for a nominee that doesn't have the votes. That also has /zero/ ******* relationship to what just happened to Kavanaugh, and Ford too, ******* zero. The fact that you even remotely think it does just shows how out of touch with the facts of what's happened you are and/or that you are a partisan hack looking for excuses for your party of favor. Take your pick.

Garland was a he for one thing.

For another, the voting takes place at the end of the process, not the beginning; unless you surrender to the bromide that party affiliation is the only factor in voting. If not, you have no way of knowing what the vote would have been. Further, there is nothing in the Constitution about the vote forecast being a prerequisite for holding hearings. If anything, you're the party hack for thinking it does.

Bringing up the "time" and "taxpayer money" is weak.

One exception though is the chants of "lock her up" - if you understood that many, many folks already felt that Hillary fucked over the justice system you'd get it. Now mix in "corrupted FBI agents," and the "guilty until proven innocent" and start the oven. This last injustice just puts the final nail in the coffin for a shit ton of folks hoping/believing the D's had a shred of "justice" left in them...

Interesting that you wrote:
"What we just witnessed was the destruction of some very fundamental principles of America; innocent until proven guilty, guilt my mere accusation, and a complete discard of logical "credibility" and the "ends" part, keeping SCOTUS power or resisting Trump or whatever the hell was motivating the D's to discard those principles, and those two peoples lives/honor/etc, quite simply does /not/ justify the means in any way, shape, or form." You seem quite willing to suspend innocence until proven guilty in the case of Ms. Clinton.

And again, hacking, chanting, and refusing to have a hearing have /zero/ ******* comparison to literally destroying a man and his family based on nothing but an accusation that is full of holes. Yet again, the fact that you don't recognize that just shows either how out of touch you are or that you're a hack looking for excuses. Take your pick.

Yeah...your title is asking for "fellow centrists"....you sound like a complete partisan who is woefully grasping for some reason to be angry in this post. In the OP, you were level headed for the most part. I layed out the most recent examples of both GOP and DEM douchebaggery in terms of your planks of "presumption of innocence" and teh SCOTUS nominee process. That you have an issue with my fair handed reporting means you either cannot comprehend such centrist thought or you're a party hack. Take your pick.

 

[candycorn]

Whatever..........there are lines in the dang sand........they attacked Americans for their beliefs...............there is no middle ground here.......

Just as this filthy last minute attack as they held on to the information since July............their tactics are beyond any negotiating with....................

NO NEGOTIATING with that................Period...........this has gone too far under the last administration............

I suggest if you are going into no mans land you better duck.................there will be fire coming across the lines.

So you suggest we open fire and start the civil war.

I say we try to vote these fuckers out of power first.

~shrug~

Of course we want to vote these assholes out of power...............but I'm not negotiating with them after the stuff they have done.........

There is NO NEGOTIATING WITH THAT..................they can go to hell.........I made sure that was clear.

I get it. I'm not sure I'm /there/ yet. Still deciding heh

When deciding if you’re “there”, half of the nation doesn’t even vote. Those who are registered and vote are about 6 in 10 I believe. So theoretically, of that 6 in ten 3.1 to 3.3 is your “majority”. If you wish to get into a hot war with 3.1 to 3.3 out of 10, you will lose. Put another way, 60-70 million voted for the President who is in power at any given time. The nation is at about 340 million right now. You’re seriously outnumbered. Good luck.

Nice ego. You seem to forget who the president is right now.

This shit motivated a crap ton of middle ground folks to go vote I can tell you that.

So? Trump got 62 million votes. Obama got 65 million (as did Clinton). You're outnumbered. Unless you're suggesting Trump as commander in chief is going to use the US military in this war that Eagle and most conservatives is pining for.... It's what military strongmen in banana republics do so.

 

[candycorn]

A stupid bisexual female, playing identity politics.

Where exactly?

You are clearly clueless about my politics. You're coming off as an unhinged lunatic who doesn't even understand what's being said in this thread.

I'll clarify some more so you can show the entire board what a complete knee jerk partisan **** you really are son:

I don't believe the baker should have baked the cake.
Transgenders in the bathroom is the stupidest ******* thing ever.
There are only two genders.
Homosexual's should /not/ be in the military because it's a lifetime expense for transition drugs and a major distraction during war.
SSM was questionable being SCOTUS pushed, I think it should have been left to the states.
I don't get why we couldn't just call SSM a "civil union" but activists ruin ******* everything by being dicks (kinda like you are being actually)
I despise third-wave feminists, they are ruining everything I fought for on women's rights.
Abortion is not a ******* "reproductive" right.
Roe vs Wade was a complete **** up, should have been left to the states.
Transitions for children?! **** that shit, child abuse.
Get the teaching gay shit out of public schools - parents choice to teach just like religion is.

Shall I go on?

You can say whatever you like. It is your OP where YOU included your homosexuality as part of your political description.
I made my point and it was quite clear. Heterosexuals don't go out of their way to describe their sexual proclivities in an attempt to garner special attention they otherwise don't deserve.

You may not see it but it is quite obvious. Identity politics are a plague upon our nation.

I think she was saying that she is bisexual but not a Leftist. As you might expect. I don't think she was attempting to check any "identity politics" boxes. Back off! Sheesh

Its crap posts like Grampa Murked U that lead to the breakdown of every discussion on this board. We had a discussion the other day about Woodward’s book where the OP expressly said “those who have read the book” only should comment. About 60 posts into it; there were about 3 discussing the book. I asked the mods to “clean up” the thread. Nothing happened. The board is a reflection of the nation…leaders who are not responsive and “citizens” who are not concerned about the greater good.

Agreed with the yelling, but that's kind of to be expected on a political forum. It's the internet, that's what the internet does, and had done since it started.

I'd say the actual problem is that the leaders are too busy responding to "citizens" who have no clue what is going on and rage and riot about "the greater good" without knowing what that actually is.

Yeah...our elected leaders are too responsive. Riiiight.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Alright, so I've been pondering Emily's wisdom and I'd like to retract Grampa Murked U

I apologize, I should have been more open to discussing your point. I didn't feel it was relevant to the point of my thread [that fundimental principles were being shoved down the garbage disposal by our leaders] at the time. In retrospect, that in itself is similar to your complaint on the political relevance of my sexual identity and I think your vitriol is actually a good example of the problem I'm actually talking about.

I believe you are 'half-right' about identity politics destroying the social fabric of the nation. However, it's not "identity politics" themselves that are the problem, it's the people's vitriol and activism that's causing the destruction of some of the "fundamental principles" I started the thread to... IDK "protect" I suppose.

Firstly, I would like to say that I don't have a "problem" with your, or anyone's, choice to dislike homosexuality, at least not in the sense that you shouldn't be "allowed" to feel that way.

As I said, I'm a classical liberal, that means that I think folks are free to believe in and think what they want about any group; activists, racists, homophones, Islamophobia, white nationalists, socialists, capitalists, etc. /all/ have the right to their personal beliefs, and, in fact, to speak about them and attempt to "influence" others to their "side."

That is what a "free nation" /actually/ is, no one has the right to dictate to others how they should, or should not, believe. There is zero "right" to "not be offended" to "not be challenged" to "not be uncomfortable" as a truly free people.

I think that perhaps is the "disconnect" between both modern activists, the media, and our political leaders these days.

I was overly animated and abrasive as I tend to be more often than not.
Your thread cleay had a lot of thought put into it and I let one part of it derail me from the overall point.

And I just want to be clear, I don't dislike gay people. I just tire of their life choices being used as a political wedge.

 

[jknowgood]

Well here is the thing. First we have no idea who actually released Ford's identity.

Secondly, if we do dodge a bullet on Kavanaugh, the hearing exposed that he is not as non-partisan as a judge is supposed to be. He has a true hatred of the left, and actually used a conspiracy theory that is unproven, that the Clintons are behind this whole thing. He has no idea if that is true or not, and he used it in his hearing. We don't need conspiracy theory nutjobs serving on the Supreme Court.

Lastly, as a judge he should have known better than to say that statements made by Mark Judge and the other person Ford said was at the party, backed up his statement that he was never there. In fact that isn't true. They said they don't remember the party, that isn't the same as saying it didn't happen and that the party didn't happen. Those are two totally different things. A judge that is going to serve on the highest court in the land should know better, and if he does know better, but instead made that statement, then he was being dishonest.

This isn't exactly a debate post... Everyone is welcome to whatever opinion and whatever facts they find most compelling.

I am simply asking that folks decide where their principles lay - and to go vote for what they believe in.

And people should vote based on what is best for society as a whole, not what their party tells them to. Republicans are saying that Democrats are being so hard on Kavanaugh simply because he is being appointed by Trump. That's not true at all. There was no accusations or anything like this AT ALL with Gorsuch. The real issue here is, it's much easier for the Republicans to blame this on partisanship, and use that as a backdoor from the situation and to pump their base, than to take the time to find out if the accusations are true or not. It's plain as day.

She doesn't know anything, when, where, how she got there, how she got home, her 4 witnesses says it didn't happen. She has almost a million dollars given to her that we know of. Nothing was ever said about this till it was known he would be approved. This is a new low you liberals has done. When we get a super majority, we fill the court with pro life judges. Pay back will be a ***** on this one.