Federal judge appears skeptical probationary firings were for performance

[WorldWatcher]

Wrong

Cancel their seat and the judge is canceled also

Once confirmed Judges can't be removed from office involuntarily without impeachment.

Now you could eliminate their seat, but taxpayers will still have to pay them under Article III Section 1.

WW

 

[Mac-7]

I literally just posted the link to the thing YOU say existed.

Of course the laws apply to the President, it's part of what he swears to as part of his oath.

WW

Yes you did

Thanks very much

It says the following :

§ 351.201 Use of regulations.​

(a)

(1) Each agency is responsible for determining the categories within which positions are required, where they are to be located, and when they are to be filled, abolished, or vacated. This includes determining when there is a surplus of employees at a particular location in a particular line of work.

Now, who does the agency work for?

Its the president

So trump ultimately decides who leaves and who stays

 

[Mac-7]

Now you could eliminate their seat, but taxpayers will still have to pay them under Article III Section 1.

Really?

I doubt that

 

[WorldWatcher]

Really?

I doubt that

You can doubt all you wish.

The Constitution is clear. Only Congress through the impeachment process can remove a Federal Judge.

They can change the number and allow attrition to achieve the number. True.

There is precedent for this from the 1800's when the size of courts were changed.

WW

 

[Mac-7]

You can doubt all you wish.

The Constitution is clear. Only Congress through the impeachment process can remove a Federal Judge.

They can change the number and allow attrition to achieve the number. True.

There is precedent for this from the 1800's when the size of courts were changed.

WW

You may be onto something

So hypothetically the judge has no court so he gets paid for the rest of his life regardless?

What if he is reassigned to sweeping floors and cleaning the toilets in the federal building?

What are the odds that he will choose to retire and live off his pension?

Either way he’s no longer serving democrats

 

[ThisIsMe]

If that is the case, why are they not identifying waste and fraud before they fire people?

Acting President Musk just fires at will and then claims they were waste and fraud

The excess of the people is the waste. If these people are not needed, then should they still be doing the job? If they couldn't answer the question of "what did you do last week", should we not look and see if indeed they are needed to be in the job?

 

[rightwinger]

The excess of the people is the waste. If these people are not needed, then should they still be doing the job? If they couldn't answer the question of "what did you do last week", should we not look and see if indeed they are needed to be in the job?

OK then
How does one identify people who are excess and not needed?

You need to look at the agencies missions and whether they are being met. Then you look at how many people are needed to do the mission.

Musk has done none of that.
He just fires people and then claims they are excess

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Jump to it Don, we all know you and the republicans have respect for law and order, we all make mistakes so lets put this one behind us and get back to making America Great!

 

[excalibur]

"Skeptical"....Really?

Nobody gives a shit if he's skeptical or not....He better read Article 2.

He just ordered they be rehired.

But telling the Admin. to rehire the terminated probationary employees from multiple Departments and Agencies is an aggrandizement of power rarely seen before from a district judge.​

 

[jbrownson0831]

He just ordered they be rehired.

But telling the Admin. to rehire the terminated probationary employees from multiple Departments and Agencies is an aggrandizement of power rarely seen before from a district judge.​

Very stupid move. Dims never learn do they?

 

[Concerned American]

'A federal judge repeatedly sounded skeptical on Wednesday that the Trump administration’s mass firings of probationary federal workers were made by the government because the employees couldn’t do their jobs, saying the terminations appeared to be part of a larger goal.

U.S. District Judge James Bredar made the comments at a hearing where nearly 20 states are seeking a temporary restraining order to stop any more firings of federal probationary employees and to reinstate those who have already been dismissed. If the dismissals were part of a large-scale reduction in force, there are certain laws guiding the process.

“This case isn’t about whether or not the government can terminate people. It’s about if they decide to terminate people how they must do it,” Bredar said. “Move fast and break things. Move fast, fine. Break things, if that involves breaking the law then that becomes problematic.”

The states argue that the Trump administration blindsided them by ignoring laws set out for large-scale layoffs, which could have devastating consequences for their state finances. At least 24,000 probationary employees have been terminated since Trump took office, the lawsuit alleges.’

Federal judge appears skeptical probationary firings were for performance

A federal judge repeatedly sounded skeptical that mass firings of probationary federal workers were made by the government because the employees couldn’t do their jobs.

apnews.com

Needless to say, it had nothing to do with performance – that’s a lie propagated by Trump.

The firings were part of Trump’s agenda of chaos and dysfunction, sloppy, ham-fisted, and illegal.

First, this is a federal issue. I fail to see where the states have standing. That being said, reductions in work force have nothing to do with performance--they are usually based solely on economics. The standard for reductions in work force usually follow the maxim of "last hired, first to go" which would support the layoffs of probationary employees.

 

[ThisIsMe]

OK then
How does one identify people who are excess and not needed?

You need to look at the agencies missions and whether they are being met. Then you look at how many people are needed to do the mission.

Musk has done none of that.
He just fires people and then claims they are excess

No, you don't need to look at if the mission is being met. You need to look at, how many people does it take to do a job....if you have many many more than that, then you start looking at cuts.

I agree they don't need to go in and just start randomly firing people, I think they need to figure out who does what job, who is needed to do that job, find people where they can't justify their job, and then take a look at if cuts can be made.


I get it, nobody wants to lose their job, but if you have excess of personnel, and these people are being paid by the taxpayers, isn't it smart to make cuts?
And it's not like they are just being tossed out with nothing. They are all being given a severance package that's like...a year or something?

 

[rightwinger]

No, you don't need to look at if the mission is being met. You need to look at, how many people does it take to do a job....if you have many many more than that, then you start looking at cuts.

I agree they don't need to go in and just start randomly firing people, I think they need to figure out who does what job, who is needed to do that job, find people where they can't justify their job, and then take a look at if cuts can be made.


I get it, nobody wants to lose their job, but if you have excess of personnel, and these people are being paid by the taxpayers, isn't it smart to make cuts?
And it's not like they are just being tossed out with nothing. They are all being given a severance package that's like...a year or something?

That is what I thought DOGE would do.

Hire experts in the field, talk to agency heads and employees to find out what works and what doesn’t.
Look at the mission of the agency and find out what is really needed.

But Elon uses a Chain Saw.
Just cut, cut, cut without concern for the damage being done.

 

[ThisIsMe]

That is what I thought DOGE would do.

Hire experts in the field, talk to agency heads and employees to find out what works and what doesn’t.
Look at the mission of the agency and find out what is really needed.

But Elon uses a Chain Saw.
Just cut, cut, cut without concern for the damage being done.

Cuts needed to be done. I would think they would be a bit more discriminate but what you are suggesting would take years. Hiring agencies..doing studies...talking to experts....by the time you went through all that, his presidency would be nearly over and there would be no time to actually enact any of it.

If we could count on the next president to commit to cutting waste from government, your idea would be feasible..but we're almost assured the next president, especially if democrat, would undo everything

He's got 4 years....it would be nice if they didn't need a chainsaw, but that's what you use when you have to cut a lot of stuff quickly.

Yes, they need to be a bit more thoughtful about their actions, but the idea is right.

 

[rightwinger]

Cuts needed to be done. I would think they would be a bit more discriminate but what you are suggesting would take years. Hiring agencies..doing studies...talking to experts....by the time you went through all that, his presidency would be nearly over and there would be no time to actually enact any of it.

If we could count on the next president to commit to cutting waste from government, your idea would be feasible..but we're almost assured the next president, especially if democrat, would undo everything

He's got 4 years....it would be nice if they didn't need a chainsaw, but that's what you use when you have to cut a lot of stuff quickly.

Yes, they need to be a bit more thoughtful about their actions, but the idea is right.

Cuts with a Chain Saw cut people who are highly talented, desperately needed and hard to replace.

Case where the solution is worse than the problem.

Musk claims there is waste without actually showing any.

 

[ThisIsMe]

Cuts with a Chain Saw cut people who are highly talented, desperately needed and hard to replace.

Case where the solution is worse than the problem.

Musk claims there is waste without actually showing any.

So let me ask you, is musk himself doing the firing? Or is it the agency heads? Musk can't fire anyone. All he can do is recommend that certain areas need to be scaled back, but it's the agency heads that are the ones who decide which people are getting cut, right?

 

[rightwinger]

So let me ask you, is musk himself doing the firing? Or is it the agency heads? Musk can't fire anyone. All he can do is recommend that certain areas need to be scaled back, but it's the agency heads that are the ones who decide which people are getting cut, right?

Do Mafia bosses actually kill anyone?

 

[ThisIsMe]

Do Mafia bosses actually kill anyone?

Do mafia bosses tell their people to "go kill 20% of those employees"?

If musk says "we need to reduce this agency by 20%", then the agency heads fire all the really necessary people instead of the ones that maybe they don't need, hiw do you blame that on musk?

 

[rightwinger]

Do mafia bosses tell their people to "go kill 20% of those employees"?

If musk says "we need to reduce this agency by 20%", then the agency heads fire all the really necessary people instead of the ones that maybe they don't need, hiw do you blame that on musk?

No, those ordered killed by mafia bosses usuall deserve it

Those caught by Musks chain saw do not

If Musk is saying…..Our studies show this agency can function just as well with 20 percent fewer employees. Then do it

But Musk is saying…Cut 20 percent, I don’t care about the effect on services

 

[ThisIsMe]

No, those ordered killed by mafia bosses usuall deserve it

Those caught by Musks chain saw do not

If Musk is saying…..Our studies show this agency can function just as well with 20 percent fewer employees. Then do it

But Musk is saying…Cut 20 percent, I don’t care about the effect on services

Again, what you are suggesting would take years, meaning, if it's not done with expediency, it will never get done

I get it, it sucks, but what is the alternative?