CDZ Fear and guns....a discussion.

[2aguy]

Preventing the CDC from doing their research is a product of paranoia.

So, are you saying that it is a product of paranoia to question the intentions, and authenticity of findings from a Government Program? Just a question for clarity.

If you reject the CDC as a source of credible information then you should not cite them as support for your position.

Never did.

You still have not addressed the issue, you are still stuck in the "I must discredit my detractors" mentality. I know, it's tough to get out of that place once you are there but, to have a rational debate, you must.

No it's not a unreasonable to question the intentions or credibility of anyone, government or private sector.

If you believe I have not addressed the issue, then you must state exactly what you believe the issue to be. The subject of the thread is guns and fear. People block the CDC from doing their job out of fear. What is it you don't understand?

" If not for the knee-jerk reaction of these people we could address the problem of gun violence in exactly the same way we deal with other health threats..." Your words. What is it you do not understand, you stated what the issue is and now you are going to play dumb, as if I brought this up? That is disingenuous at best.

Now, state your case that pertains to the issue YOU defined.

OK. Forgive me, I found your initial post to be incomprehensible. You referred to "it" without defining what "it" was. Then you said:

"If you, truely want to "...address the problem of gun violence in exactly the same way we deal with other health threats..." then address it already. Otherwise you are wasting everyone's time."

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. My initial statement was:

"exactly the same way we deal with other health threats, automotive death, smoking, workplace safety."

What do you expect me to do? I was referring to "we", meaning American society. We address the problem of gun violence deaths differently than we do any other major cause of death. There have been many controversies in automotive safety, but nothing like the barrage of absolute obstructionism that greets any and all attempts to deal with the problem of gun deaths.

At the beginning of this thread I posted a partial list of absurdities, which elicited no reaction except something about liberals suppressing Christian faith healing, which was a surefire way to cure mental illness.

CDZ - Fear and guns....a discussion.

Guns are a crime problem and subside is a mental health problem. any defect in guns is addressed by the various agencies that look into those problems just as they do for cars.......


The CDC has no place in crime.......people who illegally use guns to intentionally murder other people is not an area for the cdc....

 

[2aguy]

Nope, I'm talking about people who pretend that there are important issues involved in gun ownership. That a giant conspiracy exists to take away their guns. If not for the knee-jerk reaction of these people we could address the problem of gun violence in exactly the same way we deal with other health threats, automotive death, smoking, workplace safety.

I'm engaging in this thread because ChrisL cited the CDC study that contradicted some of the widely held beliefs about gun safety. I'm happy that it did. I believe in science. I'm not afraid of it. The NRA is. Why? Are you?

CDC Gun Research Backfires on Obama - Guns & Ammo

When the CDC says something gun rights extremists like, then they're OK. if they say anything negative about guns it's because they're biased. I find that duplicitous garbage despicable and cowardly.

Putting people in prison is waaaay too expensive. Killing them is not an option. The existing laws have nothing to do with the problem, which is largely suicide. Suicide is a growing problem, and the CDC should be allowed to study it further, as they have requested.

They actually do have anti gun researchers…their anti gun crap started in the 90s and they didn't hide it…..

One of the main guys, Dr. Kleck, started off as an anti-gunner until he did his research and realized the truth.

Good, then let him put his results alongside all the other results and allow the scientific peer review process to proceed. Once again, I trust science, you do not.

Argumentum ad Verecundiam

An appeal to an authority outside of their realm of expertise? I don't see the relevance. The truth is, no one is an expert on any of these subjects, though so many like to pretend they are. No, we're just pathetic beings who shoot ourselves and each other, and other pathetic beings who either try to stop them from doing so, or who do everything humanly possible to make sure it keeps happening.

No....357 million guns in private hands and less than 8,124 decide to use them to commit murder, usually against other criminals, so no you are wrong, again. We have a tiny, tiny minority of violent people in this country and you accuse all of us of being the same....you are wrong. You focus on all of us rather than the tiny minority, whose problems stem from social policy, not mental illness....

 

[2aguy]

Nope, I'm talking about people who pretend that there are important issues involved in gun ownership.

Hmm. That must be because there are.

But I do have to ask... in terms of people with a complete indifference to human life, why aren't you talking about criminals and the mentally ill?

After all, criminals and the mentally ill are directly responsible for the huge majority of gun-related deaths.

That a giant conspiracy exists to take away their guns

There are a any number people in positions of power that give reason for concern.
Not all that long ago, both Hillary and Obama spoke about how the Aussie approach to their gun problem - mandatory gun buy-backs - was worth looking at.
Therefore, gun owners have, at the very least, legitimate reason to be concerned.

If not for the knee-jerk reaction of these people we could address the problem of gun violence in exactly the same way we deal with other health threats, automotive death, smoking, workplace safety.

Interesting.
Keeping in mind the constitutional restrictions on the state, how do you suppose this would manifest itself?

I'm engaging in this thread because ChrisL cited the CDC study that contradicted some of the widely held beliefs about gun safety.

Such as?

Putting people in prison is waaaay too expensive. Killing them is not an option.

Certainly, you believe that people that commit murder, attempted murder, rape, assault, armed robbery, etc should be put in prison.
Why not keep them there longer if they use a gun?

The existing laws have nothing to do with the problem, which is largely suicide.

Under the Constitution, it is legally impossible to prevent someone who is legally able to buy a gun from doing so.
That being the case,m how do you prevent people from killing themselves with their guns?

1- Criminals and the mentally ill. OK. There are people who are criminals and there are people who are mentally ill. The choice about who we call criminals is a pretty slippery one. I believe what you are really referring to are the retched refuse of our inner cities. Pretty much 1/3 of the problem of gun deaths. The mentally ill are irrelevant.

Here I would pause to note that if you wish to discuss the subject of gun violence, let's first define the problem. Approx 30,000 unlucky souls eat too much lead every year. I dunno how many eat almost enough to barely enough. There are simply too many guns going off for the wrong reasons.

What are the consequences of this? Bad PR. A loss of soft power. Also a lot of families torn apart. Now, back to our program.

Animals. The animals of the inner cities. They're rare, but not rare enough. All cultures produce them, but the African American community produces them in larger numbers. Sufficient to drag down communities. Rather a large problem, but there lies 1/3 of your gun deaths.

2- Australia!! Opportunities available for all walks of life in Australia. Surprisingly, there is strong disagreement about the results of their rather extreme experiment. Cross-country comparisons are always fraught, and Obama really, really hates the pro-gun lobby. A little kick to their cage. Extremism is always met with counter extremism. Do you really see a serious threat to gun rights? In the wake of Heller? Will nothing make you sure you are constitutionally protected?

3- I dunno. PSAs? The last couple of times I designed nationwide schemes to bring down death rates, no wait, I never have. I suspect neither have you. The point is I want to try and apparently you don't. We could encourage gun manufacturers to promote the safety of their products as a selling point. Develop technologies that make the gun safer. Something that couldn't be turned against the owner, let's say.

4- Of course they belong in prison, and I was under the impression that the use of a gun while committing a felony was a separate charge.

5- Regarding the use of guns for home defense. This was a preliminary study. A mere ten million. The CDC doesn't want to bite the hand that feeds them. They were glad to comply with the president's request, but they won't take it any further for fear of offending the people they depend on for funding, who will be here long after Obama is only a library. Witness the power of the NRA.

6- Yes, the missing 2/3 of the puzzle. Suicide.

7- Do I have to stop them all, all by myself? Suicide prevention experts would be my choice for the job. I've never saved anyone from suicide. Driven them to it maybe, but not prevented it. It seems like quite a challenging job. Low rate of success, I would guess.

And this is why we can never take you anti gun loons seriously...

Here I would pause to note that if you wish to discuss the subject of gun violence, let's first define the problem. Approx 30,000 unlucky souls eat too much lead every year. I dunno how many eat almost enough to barely enough. There are simply too many guns going off for the wrong reasons.

21,000 of those are suicides. We have 19,974 suicides in this country that do not involve guns...so guns are not really the problem in suicides.

In 2014 we had 8,124 gun murders, 90% of those doing the murder were criminals and 70% of the victims had more than one prior criminal offense themselves.

In 2013 there were 320 million guns in private hands, and only 505 accidental gun deaths.

As far as suicide goes that is a mental health problem not a gun problem. The murders, that is a crime problem created by social policy, usually, as most of those shooters will have come from single parent homes, usually single teenage mothers.

The numbers do not support your beliefs. 320 million guns in private hands and only 8,124 intentional, illegal uses in order to commit murder....do you even comprehend those numbers and the magnitude of difference between them.

Those of us on the Pro self defense side understand the problem. We have a sub culture of crimimals who commit murder, who are often caught in possession of guns they cannot have who should be put in jail for a long time. Why aren't they....because for some inexplicable reason, prosectuors, who complain about gun violence, and judges, let these guys go...and then they go out and murder someone with a gun.


Here in Chicago they had a ceremony for the anniversary of Hadiya Pendleton's death. She was shot after coming back from one of obama's addresses. Her shooter had been arrested, as a felon, in possession of an illegal gun and should have been in jail at the time of her shooting. He was released, even though he had that illegal gun, and then he fired the shots into the park where she was playing.

That is not people shooting other people too much....that is a failure of the criminal justice system to keep dangerous, repeat, violent criminals, caught red handed with the very item, a gun, that you nuts keep bitching about. It wasn't the gun that was the problem....he should have been in jail under the laws we actually have. Prosecutors and judges let this killer out even though they had him cold on a weapons charge as a felon......

 

[Elvis Obama]

1) I have my concealed carry permit and have, since I got out off of Active Duty Military in 1991.

I carry a gun when I go camping. No if, ands or butts, I go in the woods....I carry a gun. More for stray dogs - rabid animals and coyotes.

For years, when I went camping, I carried a 5 shot "J" frame handgun in 38 caliber - so I was not some doomsday person with thousands of rounds of ammo. A 5 shot handgun and 5 rounds backup.

2) Concealed carry - firearms ; is about "being prepared". The shooting in the mall, super Wal-Mart parking lot does not occur, until you do not have a firearm. The workplace shooting, the violent shootout at the city park does not happen......until one does not have a handgun.

Carrying a handgun, and having the fortitude to use it is two different things. Some people will, and have.... "froze" when bullets start flying. Their mind, like in moderate hypothermia......freezes, and they cannot think straight in a life threatening situation, or traumatic event. The brain......appears to be in "neurogenic shock". or their body trembles like they are having a seizure.

But it boils down to one thing - be a victim ; possibly killed, paralyzed, or severely injured......or shoot the "bad guys".

When I was on a Volunteer Fire Department, I got my EMT-Basic, because I was showing up to some automobile collisions before the ambulance got to the scene, and I did not know what to do other than bleeding control, "C Spine", and talk to the patient.

After I got my EMT- Basic, I was working with some great Paramedics, and I told myself.....I want to do that. I want to work a good trauma, I want to investigate medical problems, I want to do a trauma assessment, I want to start IVs, and the list goes on. So I worked full time and went to Paramedic Class; which was in no way was an easy tasks. It was extremely difficult working full time on an ambulance and going to Paramedic Class. But I did it, graduating with a 3.5 GPA and I was in the top of my class on graduation day.

Being able to stop a shooting, a kidnapping, a rape, a violent assault, a drug induced person committing violence with a weapon, prevent or stop the workplace shooting.......is better than having your hands tied, or be totally helpless. To say to yourself at the funeral(s) "If only I had carried my handgun". I have in other situations.....been helpless, having had to wait for better trained resources. I have had on many occasion.....my hands ties and not able to do anything to a "damaged" person. So I know what it fells like to "Not be able to do anything". I overcame some of those problems.....I got my EMT - Basic and my Paramedic certification - busting my butt tremendously to do so.

Feeling helpless is not a feeling to endure - and it plays on the mind and psyche sometimes. Knowing that "I could have done something." Feeling helpless sometimes.......leaves a long lasing feeling of regret.


I know.......from experience.


Shadow 355

"Carrying a handgun, and having the fortitude to use it is two different things. Some people will, and have.... "froze" when bullets start flying. Their mind, like in moderate hypothermia......freezes, and they cannot think straight in a life threatening situation, or traumatic event. The brain......appears to be in "neurogenic shock". or their body trembles like they are having a seizure."

Sounds like the speech Gene Hackman gives in "Unforgiven". He was the Sheriff, though, and he stripped everyone of their guns as they came to town. Shooting guns is MY job, was the message. Vigilantism is not welcome in the town of Big Whisky.

So, what's changed?

 

[2aguy]

1) I have my concealed carry permit and have, since I got out off of Active Duty Military in 1991.

I carry a gun when I go camping. No if, ands or butts, I go in the woods....I carry a gun. More for stray dogs - rabid animals and coyotes.

For years, when I went camping, I carried a 5 shot "J" frame handgun in 38 caliber - so I was not some doomsday person with thousands of rounds of ammo. A 5 shot handgun and 5 rounds backup.

2) Concealed carry - firearms ; is about "being prepared". The shooting in the mall, super Wal-Mart parking lot does not occur, until you do not have a firearm. The workplace shooting, the violent shootout at the city park does not happen......until one does not have a handgun.

Carrying a handgun, and having the fortitude to use it is two different things. Some people will, and have.... "froze" when bullets start flying. Their mind, like in moderate hypothermia......freezes, and they cannot think straight in a life threatening situation, or traumatic event. The brain......appears to be in "neurogenic shock". or their body trembles like they are having a seizure.

But it boils down to one thing - be a victim ; possibly killed, paralyzed, or severely injured......or shoot the "bad guys".

When I was on a Volunteer Fire Department, I got my EMT-Basic, because I was showing up to some automobile collisions before the ambulance got to the scene, and I did not know what to do other than bleeding control, "C Spine", and talk to the patient.

After I got my EMT- Basic, I was working with some great Paramedics, and I told myself.....I want to do that. I want to work a good trauma, I want to investigate medical problems, I want to do a trauma assessment, I want to start IVs, and the list goes on. So I worked full time and went to Paramedic Class; which was in no way was an easy tasks. It was extremely difficult working full time on an ambulance and going to Paramedic Class. But I did it, graduating with a 3.5 GPA and I was in the top of my class on graduation day.

Being able to stop a shooting, a kidnapping, a rape, a violent assault, a drug induced person committing violence with a weapon, prevent or stop the workplace shooting.......is better than having your hands tied, or be totally helpless. To say to yourself at the funeral(s) "If only I had carried my handgun". I have in other situations.....been helpless, having had to wait for better trained resources. I have had on many occasion.....my hands ties and not able to do anything to a "damaged" person. So I know what it fells like to "Not be able to do anything". I overcame some of those problems.....I got my EMT - Basic and my Paramedic certification - busting my butt tremendously to do so.

Feeling helpless is not a feeling to endure - and it plays on the mind and psyche sometimes. Knowing that "I could have done something." Feeling helpless sometimes.......leaves a long lasing feeling of regret.


I know.......from experience.


Shadow 355

"Carrying a handgun, and having the fortitude to use it is two different things. Some people will, and have.... "froze" when bullets start flying. Their mind, like in moderate hypothermia......freezes, and they cannot think straight in a life threatening situation, or traumatic event. The brain......appears to be in "neurogenic shock". or their body trembles like they are having a seizure."

Sounds like the speech Gene Hackman gives in "Unforgiven". He was the Sheriff, though, and he stripped everyone of their guns as they came to town. Shooting guns is MY job, was the message. Vigilantism is not welcome in the town of Big Whisky.

So, what's changed?

Yeah...nice theory...but realty shows you are wrong. a,ericans use guns 1.5 million times a year to stop violent criminal attack and save lives......and they are not all Navy Seals or Delta Operators.........

you anti gunners always say the normal gun owner can't protect themselves and reality shows you wrong over and over again....

try to do some research......

 

[DarkFury]

1) I have my concealed carry permit and have, since I got out off of Active Duty Military in 1991.

I carry a gun when I go camping. No if, ands or butts, I go in the woods....I carry a gun. More for stray dogs - rabid animals and coyotes.

For years, when I went camping, I carried a 5 shot "J" frame handgun in 38 caliber - so I was not some doomsday person with thousands of rounds of ammo. A 5 shot handgun and 5 rounds backup.

2) Concealed carry - firearms ; is about "being prepared". The shooting in the mall, super Wal-Mart parking lot does not occur, until you do not have a firearm. The workplace shooting, the violent shootout at the city park does not happen......until one does not have a handgun.

Carrying a handgun, and having the fortitude to use it is two different things. Some people will, and have.... "froze" when bullets start flying. Their mind, like in moderate hypothermia......freezes, and they cannot think straight in a life threatening situation, or traumatic event. The brain......appears to be in "neurogenic shock". or their body trembles like they are having a seizure.

But it boils down to one thing - be a victim ; possibly killed, paralyzed, or severely injured......or shoot the "bad guys".

When I was on a Volunteer Fire Department, I got my EMT-Basic, because I was showing up to some automobile collisions before the ambulance got to the scene, and I did not know what to do other than bleeding control, "C Spine", and talk to the patient.

After I got my EMT- Basic, I was working with some great Paramedics, and I told myself.....I want to do that. I want to work a good trauma, I want to investigate medical problems, I want to do a trauma assessment, I want to start IVs, and the list goes on. So I worked full time and went to Paramedic Class; which was in no way was an easy tasks. It was extremely difficult working full time on an ambulance and going to Paramedic Class. But I did it, graduating with a 3.5 GPA and I was in the top of my class on graduation day.

Being able to stop a shooting, a kidnapping, a rape, a violent assault, a drug induced person committing violence with a weapon, prevent or stop the workplace shooting.......is better than having your hands tied, or be totally helpless. To say to yourself at the funeral(s) "If only I had carried my handgun". I have in other situations.....been helpless, having had to wait for better trained resources. I have had on many occasion.....my hands ties and not able to do anything to a "damaged" person. So I know what it fells like to "Not be able to do anything". I overcame some of those problems.....I got my EMT - Basic and my Paramedic certification - busting my butt tremendously to do so.

Feeling helpless is not a feeling to endure - and it plays on the mind and psyche sometimes. Knowing that "I could have done something." Feeling helpless sometimes.......leaves a long lasing feeling of regret.


I know.......from experience.


Shadow 355

"Carrying a handgun, and having the fortitude to use it is two different things. Some people will, and have.... "froze" when bullets start flying. Their mind, like in moderate hypothermia......freezes, and they cannot think straight in a life threatening situation, or traumatic event. The brain......appears to be in "neurogenic shock". or their body trembles like they are having a seizure."

Sounds like the speech Gene Hackman gives in "Unforgiven". He was the Sheriff, though, and he stripped everyone of their guns as they came to town. Shooting guns is MY job, was the message. Vigilantism is not welcome in the town of Big Whisky.

So, what's changed?

And do you recall what happen to Hackman in the end?

 

[Elvis Obama]

1) I have my concealed carry permit and have, since I got out off of Active Duty Military in 1991.

I carry a gun when I go camping. No if, ands or butts, I go in the woods....I carry a gun. More for stray dogs - rabid animals and coyotes.

For years, when I went camping, I carried a 5 shot "J" frame handgun in 38 caliber - so I was not some doomsday person with thousands of rounds of ammo. A 5 shot handgun and 5 rounds backup.

2) Concealed carry - firearms ; is about "being prepared". The shooting in the mall, super Wal-Mart parking lot does not occur, until you do not have a firearm. The workplace shooting, the violent shootout at the city park does not happen......until one does not have a handgun.

Carrying a handgun, and having the fortitude to use it is two different things. Some people will, and have.... "froze" when bullets start flying. Their mind, like in moderate hypothermia......freezes, and they cannot think straight in a life threatening situation, or traumatic event. The brain......appears to be in "neurogenic shock". or their body trembles like they are having a seizure.

But it boils down to one thing - be a victim ; possibly killed, paralyzed, or severely injured......or shoot the "bad guys".

When I was on a Volunteer Fire Department, I got my EMT-Basic, because I was showing up to some automobile collisions before the ambulance got to the scene, and I did not know what to do other than bleeding control, "C Spine", and talk to the patient.

After I got my EMT- Basic, I was working with some great Paramedics, and I told myself.....I want to do that. I want to work a good trauma, I want to investigate medical problems, I want to do a trauma assessment, I want to start IVs, and the list goes on. So I worked full time and went to Paramedic Class; which was in no way was an easy tasks. It was extremely difficult working full time on an ambulance and going to Paramedic Class. But I did it, graduating with a 3.5 GPA and I was in the top of my class on graduation day.

Being able to stop a shooting, a kidnapping, a rape, a violent assault, a drug induced person committing violence with a weapon, prevent or stop the workplace shooting.......is better than having your hands tied, or be totally helpless. To say to yourself at the funeral(s) "If only I had carried my handgun". I have in other situations.....been helpless, having had to wait for better trained resources. I have had on many occasion.....my hands ties and not able to do anything to a "damaged" person. So I know what it fells like to "Not be able to do anything". I overcame some of those problems.....I got my EMT - Basic and my Paramedic certification - busting my butt tremendously to do so.

Feeling helpless is not a feeling to endure - and it plays on the mind and psyche sometimes. Knowing that "I could have done something." Feeling helpless sometimes.......leaves a long lasing feeling of regret.


I know.......from experience.


Shadow 355

"Carrying a handgun, and having the fortitude to use it is two different things. Some people will, and have.... "froze" when bullets start flying. Their mind, like in moderate hypothermia......freezes, and they cannot think straight in a life threatening situation, or traumatic event. The brain......appears to be in "neurogenic shock". or their body trembles like they are having a seizure."

Sounds like the speech Gene Hackman gives in "Unforgiven". He was the Sheriff, though, and he stripped everyone of their guns as they came to town. Shooting guns is MY job, was the message. Vigilantism is not welcome in the town of Big Whisky.

So, what's changed?

And do you recall what happen to Hackman in the end?

Yup, savagery won. The same way it's winning in Chicago. Is vigilantism the answer?

 

[2aguy]

1) I have my concealed carry permit and have, since I got out off of Active Duty Military in 1991.

I carry a gun when I go camping. No if, ands or butts, I go in the woods....I carry a gun. More for stray dogs - rabid animals and coyotes.

For years, when I went camping, I carried a 5 shot "J" frame handgun in 38 caliber - so I was not some doomsday person with thousands of rounds of ammo. A 5 shot handgun and 5 rounds backup.

2) Concealed carry - firearms ; is about "being prepared". The shooting in the mall, super Wal-Mart parking lot does not occur, until you do not have a firearm. The workplace shooting, the violent shootout at the city park does not happen......until one does not have a handgun.

Carrying a handgun, and having the fortitude to use it is two different things. Some people will, and have.... "froze" when bullets start flying. Their mind, like in moderate hypothermia......freezes, and they cannot think straight in a life threatening situation, or traumatic event. The brain......appears to be in "neurogenic shock". or their body trembles like they are having a seizure.

But it boils down to one thing - be a victim ; possibly killed, paralyzed, or severely injured......or shoot the "bad guys".

When I was on a Volunteer Fire Department, I got my EMT-Basic, because I was showing up to some automobile collisions before the ambulance got to the scene, and I did not know what to do other than bleeding control, "C Spine", and talk to the patient.

After I got my EMT- Basic, I was working with some great Paramedics, and I told myself.....I want to do that. I want to work a good trauma, I want to investigate medical problems, I want to do a trauma assessment, I want to start IVs, and the list goes on. So I worked full time and went to Paramedic Class; which was in no way was an easy tasks. It was extremely difficult working full time on an ambulance and going to Paramedic Class. But I did it, graduating with a 3.5 GPA and I was in the top of my class on graduation day.

Being able to stop a shooting, a kidnapping, a rape, a violent assault, a drug induced person committing violence with a weapon, prevent or stop the workplace shooting.......is better than having your hands tied, or be totally helpless. To say to yourself at the funeral(s) "If only I had carried my handgun". I have in other situations.....been helpless, having had to wait for better trained resources. I have had on many occasion.....my hands ties and not able to do anything to a "damaged" person. So I know what it fells like to "Not be able to do anything". I overcame some of those problems.....I got my EMT - Basic and my Paramedic certification - busting my butt tremendously to do so.

Feeling helpless is not a feeling to endure - and it plays on the mind and psyche sometimes. Knowing that "I could have done something." Feeling helpless sometimes.......leaves a long lasing feeling of regret.


I know.......from experience.


Shadow 355

"Carrying a handgun, and having the fortitude to use it is two different things. Some people will, and have.... "froze" when bullets start flying. Their mind, like in moderate hypothermia......freezes, and they cannot think straight in a life threatening situation, or traumatic event. The brain......appears to be in "neurogenic shock". or their body trembles like they are having a seizure."

Sounds like the speech Gene Hackman gives in "Unforgiven". He was the Sheriff, though, and he stripped everyone of their guns as they came to town. Shooting guns is MY job, was the message. Vigilantism is not welcome in the town of Big Whisky.

So, what's changed?

And do you recall what happen to Hackman in the end?

Yup, savagery won. The same way it's winning in Chicago. Is vigilantism the answer?

and who is advocating vigilantism? how about hiring enough police and keeping gun criminals locked up on their first offense....instead of letting them out over and over again...

 

[2aguy]

1) I have my concealed carry permit and have, since I got out off of Active Duty Military in 1991.

I carry a gun when I go camping. No if, ands or butts, I go in the woods....I carry a gun. More for stray dogs - rabid animals and coyotes.

For years, when I went camping, I carried a 5 shot "J" frame handgun in 38 caliber - so I was not some doomsday person with thousands of rounds of ammo. A 5 shot handgun and 5 rounds backup.

2) Concealed carry - firearms ; is about "being prepared". The shooting in the mall, super Wal-Mart parking lot does not occur, until you do not have a firearm. The workplace shooting, the violent shootout at the city park does not happen......until one does not have a handgun.

Carrying a handgun, and having the fortitude to use it is two different things. Some people will, and have.... "froze" when bullets start flying. Their mind, like in moderate hypothermia......freezes, and they cannot think straight in a life threatening situation, or traumatic event. The brain......appears to be in "neurogenic shock". or their body trembles like they are having a seizure.

But it boils down to one thing - be a victim ; possibly killed, paralyzed, or severely injured......or shoot the "bad guys".

When I was on a Volunteer Fire Department, I got my EMT-Basic, because I was showing up to some automobile collisions before the ambulance got to the scene, and I did not know what to do other than bleeding control, "C Spine", and talk to the patient.

After I got my EMT- Basic, I was working with some great Paramedics, and I told myself.....I want to do that. I want to work a good trauma, I want to investigate medical problems, I want to do a trauma assessment, I want to start IVs, and the list goes on. So I worked full time and went to Paramedic Class; which was in no way was an easy tasks. It was extremely difficult working full time on an ambulance and going to Paramedic Class. But I did it, graduating with a 3.5 GPA and I was in the top of my class on graduation day.

Being able to stop a shooting, a kidnapping, a rape, a violent assault, a drug induced person committing violence with a weapon, prevent or stop the workplace shooting.......is better than having your hands tied, or be totally helpless. To say to yourself at the funeral(s) "If only I had carried my handgun". I have in other situations.....been helpless, having had to wait for better trained resources. I have had on many occasion.....my hands ties and not able to do anything to a "damaged" person. So I know what it fells like to "Not be able to do anything". I overcame some of those problems.....I got my EMT - Basic and my Paramedic certification - busting my butt tremendously to do so.

Feeling helpless is not a feeling to endure - and it plays on the mind and psyche sometimes. Knowing that "I could have done something." Feeling helpless sometimes.......leaves a long lasing feeling of regret.


I know.......from experience.


Shadow 355

"Carrying a handgun, and having the fortitude to use it is two different things. Some people will, and have.... "froze" when bullets start flying. Their mind, like in moderate hypothermia......freezes, and they cannot think straight in a life threatening situation, or traumatic event. The brain......appears to be in "neurogenic shock". or their body trembles like they are having a seizure."

Sounds like the speech Gene Hackman gives in "Unforgiven". He was the Sheriff, though, and he stripped everyone of their guns as they came to town. Shooting guns is MY job, was the message. Vigilantism is not welcome in the town of Big Whisky.

So, what's changed?

And do you recall what happen to Hackman in the end?

Yup, savagery won. The same way it's winning in Chicago. Is vigilantism the answer?

why do you anti gun people always have such a bad understanding of reality?

 

[DarkFury]

1) I have my concealed carry permit and have, since I got out off of Active Duty Military in 1991.

I carry a gun when I go camping. No if, ands or butts, I go in the woods....I carry a gun. More for stray dogs - rabid animals and coyotes.

For years, when I went camping, I carried a 5 shot "J" frame handgun in 38 caliber - so I was not some doomsday person with thousands of rounds of ammo. A 5 shot handgun and 5 rounds backup.

2) Concealed carry - firearms ; is about "being prepared". The shooting in the mall, super Wal-Mart parking lot does not occur, until you do not have a firearm. The workplace shooting, the violent shootout at the city park does not happen......until one does not have a handgun.

Carrying a handgun, and having the fortitude to use it is two different things. Some people will, and have.... "froze" when bullets start flying. Their mind, like in moderate hypothermia......freezes, and they cannot think straight in a life threatening situation, or traumatic event. The brain......appears to be in "neurogenic shock". or their body trembles like they are having a seizure.

But it boils down to one thing - be a victim ; possibly killed, paralyzed, or severely injured......or shoot the "bad guys".

When I was on a Volunteer Fire Department, I got my EMT-Basic, because I was showing up to some automobile collisions before the ambulance got to the scene, and I did not know what to do other than bleeding control, "C Spine", and talk to the patient.

After I got my EMT- Basic, I was working with some great Paramedics, and I told myself.....I want to do that. I want to work a good trauma, I want to investigate medical problems, I want to do a trauma assessment, I want to start IVs, and the list goes on. So I worked full time and went to Paramedic Class; which was in no way was an easy tasks. It was extremely difficult working full time on an ambulance and going to Paramedic Class. But I did it, graduating with a 3.5 GPA and I was in the top of my class on graduation day.

Being able to stop a shooting, a kidnapping, a rape, a violent assault, a drug induced person committing violence with a weapon, prevent or stop the workplace shooting.......is better than having your hands tied, or be totally helpless. To say to yourself at the funeral(s) "If only I had carried my handgun". I have in other situations.....been helpless, having had to wait for better trained resources. I have had on many occasion.....my hands ties and not able to do anything to a "damaged" person. So I know what it fells like to "Not be able to do anything". I overcame some of those problems.....I got my EMT - Basic and my Paramedic certification - busting my butt tremendously to do so.

Feeling helpless is not a feeling to endure - and it plays on the mind and psyche sometimes. Knowing that "I could have done something." Feeling helpless sometimes.......leaves a long lasing feeling of regret.


I know.......from experience.


Shadow 355

"Carrying a handgun, and having the fortitude to use it is two different things. Some people will, and have.... "froze" when bullets start flying. Their mind, like in moderate hypothermia......freezes, and they cannot think straight in a life threatening situation, or traumatic event. The brain......appears to be in "neurogenic shock". or their body trembles like they are having a seizure."

Sounds like the speech Gene Hackman gives in "Unforgiven". He was the Sheriff, though, and he stripped everyone of their guns as they came to town. Shooting guns is MY job, was the message. Vigilantism is not welcome in the town of Big Whisky.

So, what's changed?

And do you recall what happen to Hackman in the end?

Yup, savagery won. The same way it's winning in Chicago. Is vigilantism the answer?

The town marshal was crooked just like a Chicago cop. You see vengence I see justice.

 

[DarkFury]

1) I have my concealed carry permit and have, since I got out off of Active Duty Military in 1991.

I carry a gun when I go camping. No if, ands or butts, I go in the woods....I carry a gun. More for stray dogs - rabid animals and coyotes.

For years, when I went camping, I carried a 5 shot "J" frame handgun in 38 caliber - so I was not some doomsday person with thousands of rounds of ammo. A 5 shot handgun and 5 rounds backup.

2) Concealed carry - firearms ; is about "being prepared". The shooting in the mall, super Wal-Mart parking lot does not occur, until you do not have a firearm. The workplace shooting, the violent shootout at the city park does not happen......until one does not have a handgun.

Carrying a handgun, and having the fortitude to use it is two different things. Some people will, and have.... "froze" when bullets start flying. Their mind, like in moderate hypothermia......freezes, and they cannot think straight in a life threatening situation, or traumatic event. The brain......appears to be in "neurogenic shock". or their body trembles like they are having a seizure.

But it boils down to one thing - be a victim ; possibly killed, paralyzed, or severely injured......or shoot the "bad guys".

When I was on a Volunteer Fire Department, I got my EMT-Basic, because I was showing up to some automobile collisions before the ambulance got to the scene, and I did not know what to do other than bleeding control, "C Spine", and talk to the patient.

After I got my EMT- Basic, I was working with some great Paramedics, and I told myself.....I want to do that. I want to work a good trauma, I want to investigate medical problems, I want to do a trauma assessment, I want to start IVs, and the list goes on. So I worked full time and went to Paramedic Class; which was in no way was an easy tasks. It was extremely difficult working full time on an ambulance and going to Paramedic Class. But I did it, graduating with a 3.5 GPA and I was in the top of my class on graduation day.

Being able to stop a shooting, a kidnapping, a rape, a violent assault, a drug induced person committing violence with a weapon, prevent or stop the workplace shooting.......is better than having your hands tied, or be totally helpless. To say to yourself at the funeral(s) "If only I had carried my handgun". I have in other situations.....been helpless, having had to wait for better trained resources. I have had on many occasion.....my hands ties and not able to do anything to a "damaged" person. So I know what it fells like to "Not be able to do anything". I overcame some of those problems.....I got my EMT - Basic and my Paramedic certification - busting my butt tremendously to do so.

Feeling helpless is not a feeling to endure - and it plays on the mind and psyche sometimes. Knowing that "I could have done something." Feeling helpless sometimes.......leaves a long lasing feeling of regret.


I know.......from experience.


Shadow 355

"Carrying a handgun, and having the fortitude to use it is two different things. Some people will, and have.... "froze" when bullets start flying. Their mind, like in moderate hypothermia......freezes, and they cannot think straight in a life threatening situation, or traumatic event. The brain......appears to be in "neurogenic shock". or their body trembles like they are having a seizure."

Sounds like the speech Gene Hackman gives in "Unforgiven". He was the Sheriff, though, and he stripped everyone of their guns as they came to town. Shooting guns is MY job, was the message. Vigilantism is not welcome in the town of Big Whisky.

So, what's changed?

And do you recall what happen to Hackman in the end?

Yup, savagery won. The same way it's winning in Chicago. Is vigilantism the answer?

why do you anti gun people always have such a bad understanding of reality?

It is kind of sad when they use movies. But one poster here used to use the TV program "West Wing" as fact.

 

[Elvis Obama]

1) I have my concealed carry permit and have, since I got out off of Active Duty Military in 1991.

I carry a gun when I go camping. No if, ands or butts, I go in the woods....I carry a gun. More for stray dogs - rabid animals and coyotes.

For years, when I went camping, I carried a 5 shot "J" frame handgun in 38 caliber - so I was not some doomsday person with thousands of rounds of ammo. A 5 shot handgun and 5 rounds backup.

2) Concealed carry - firearms ; is about "being prepared". The shooting in the mall, super Wal-Mart parking lot does not occur, until you do not have a firearm. The workplace shooting, the violent shootout at the city park does not happen......until one does not have a handgun.

Carrying a handgun, and having the fortitude to use it is two different things. Some people will, and have.... "froze" when bullets start flying. Their mind, like in moderate hypothermia......freezes, and they cannot think straight in a life threatening situation, or traumatic event. The brain......appears to be in "neurogenic shock". or their body trembles like they are having a seizure.

But it boils down to one thing - be a victim ; possibly killed, paralyzed, or severely injured......or shoot the "bad guys".

When I was on a Volunteer Fire Department, I got my EMT-Basic, because I was showing up to some automobile collisions before the ambulance got to the scene, and I did not know what to do other than bleeding control, "C Spine", and talk to the patient.

After I got my EMT- Basic, I was working with some great Paramedics, and I told myself.....I want to do that. I want to work a good trauma, I want to investigate medical problems, I want to do a trauma assessment, I want to start IVs, and the list goes on. So I worked full time and went to Paramedic Class; which was in no way was an easy tasks. It was extremely difficult working full time on an ambulance and going to Paramedic Class. But I did it, graduating with a 3.5 GPA and I was in the top of my class on graduation day.

Being able to stop a shooting, a kidnapping, a rape, a violent assault, a drug induced person committing violence with a weapon, prevent or stop the workplace shooting.......is better than having your hands tied, or be totally helpless. To say to yourself at the funeral(s) "If only I had carried my handgun". I have in other situations.....been helpless, having had to wait for better trained resources. I have had on many occasion.....my hands ties and not able to do anything to a "damaged" person. So I know what it fells like to "Not be able to do anything". I overcame some of those problems.....I got my EMT - Basic and my Paramedic certification - busting my butt tremendously to do so.

Feeling helpless is not a feeling to endure - and it plays on the mind and psyche sometimes. Knowing that "I could have done something." Feeling helpless sometimes.......leaves a long lasing feeling of regret.


I know.......from experience.


Shadow 355

"Carrying a handgun, and having the fortitude to use it is two different things. Some people will, and have.... "froze" when bullets start flying. Their mind, like in moderate hypothermia......freezes, and they cannot think straight in a life threatening situation, or traumatic event. The brain......appears to be in "neurogenic shock". or their body trembles like they are having a seizure."

Sounds like the speech Gene Hackman gives in "Unforgiven". He was the Sheriff, though, and he stripped everyone of their guns as they came to town. Shooting guns is MY job, was the message. Vigilantism is not welcome in the town of Big Whisky.

So, what's changed?

And do you recall what happen to Hackman in the end?

Yup, savagery won. The same way it's winning in Chicago. Is vigilantism the answer?

why do you anti gun people always have such a bad understanding of reality?

It is kind of sad when they use movies. But one poster here used to use the TV program "West Wing" as fact.

Yeah, culture. What a bore. All them books and movies? Ha!

Yeah, that's what I like about the "Debate" zone. So many erudite posters. ZZZZzzzz...

 

[RandallFlagg]

this is in the CDZ because it gets a little old when some start talking sex organs and guns.....

soooo....

We are constantly told that if you carry a gun you are afraid.

Is this true.

No.

Carrying a gun for self defense is a rational response to the reality that even though I know where I live is ver safe, there are still criminals out there and that you never know when one will target you. These things happen every day, in every state, in every country.

How much fear goes into carrying a gun...for me....there is about as much emotion to carrying a gun as there is carrying my cell phone.

Now....the other side...the one that is constantly accusing my side of being afraid.....I believe that fear is what they feel....especially about guns. The don't like people, but they hate guns in the hands of people.

For example.

There are over 3,700,000 AR-15s in private hands in this country.

Each year maybe, maybe, 2-3 are used in any type of crime or even a mass shooting.

With those numbers, those who I believe fear guns want all AR-15s banned from private hands. To me, that is real fear. The numbers show that the odds of being a victim of a violent attack by an attacker with an AR-15 are so remote...you would actually have more of a chance of running into Big Foot and Elvis having Lunch with Aliens.....

And yet, they call for all AR-15s and other rifles like it to be completely banned.

And yet even if AR-15s are completely banned, there is not one crime that is committed on those rare occasions where an AR-15 is used that cannot be done to the same effect with a pistol, shot gun or other rifle or a combination of those......

Yet we are called scaredy cats for wearing a gun like we wear a cell phone or buckle our seat belts.

To a rational person....who sounds more afraid of guns...who sounds more filled with actual fear...?

Personally, it's a simple answer to a complicated question.

I have been around firearms since nearly the day I was born. I am a combat veteran and carried a gun nearly every day that I was in the Army. I have a CCW (as do my Wife, my Son and my Daughter) although I do NOT believe requiring a permit to carry a gun, either openly or concealed, is Constitutional.

I have hunted all my life. Deer, elk, rabbit, squirrel, geese, duck and the like. My family lives off game.

Now, to the point. The people who fear guns are those who know the least about them. Most of these folks wouldn't know which end of the barrel the bullet comes out of. All they "know" about guns is the propaganda they are fed with their morning coffee.

Right now, at this very minute, there are loaded rifles, shotguns and pistols throughout my home. All ready to fire. As of this writing, they have not killed me or my Wife. However, break into my home - and you WILL be carried out in a body bag. You WILL be shot dead by either myself or my Wife.

Guns are a tool, just like a hammer and a saw. In the right hands, they accomplish good things. In the wrong hands, chaos follows. It really is that simple.

 

[DarkFury]

this is in the CDZ because it gets a little old when some start talking sex organs and guns.....

soooo....

We are constantly told that if you carry a gun you are afraid.

Is this true.

No.

Carrying a gun for self defense is a rational response to the reality that even though I know where I live is ver safe, there are still criminals out there and that you never know when one will target you. These things happen every day, in every state, in every country.

How much fear goes into carrying a gun...for me....there is about as much emotion to carrying a gun as there is carrying my cell phone.

Now....the other side...the one that is constantly accusing my side of being afraid.....I believe that fear is what they feel....especially about guns. The don't like people, but they hate guns in the hands of people.

For example.

There are over 3,700,000 AR-15s in private hands in this country.

Each year maybe, maybe, 2-3 are used in any type of crime or even a mass shooting.

With those numbers, those who I believe fear guns want all AR-15s banned from private hands. To me, that is real fear. The numbers show that the odds of being a victim of a violent attack by an attacker with an AR-15 are so remote...you would actually have more of a chance of running into Big Foot and Elvis having Lunch with Aliens.....

And yet, they call for all AR-15s and other rifles like it to be completely banned.

And yet even if AR-15s are completely banned, there is not one crime that is committed on those rare occasions where an AR-15 is used that cannot be done to the same effect with a pistol, shot gun or other rifle or a combination of those......

Yet we are called scaredy cats for wearing a gun like we wear a cell phone or buckle our seat belts.

To a rational person....who sounds more afraid of guns...who sounds more filled with actual fear...?

Personally, it's a simple answer to a complicated question.

I have been around firearms since nearly the day I was born. I am a combat veteran and carried a gun nearly every day that I was in the Army. I have a CCW (as do my Wife, my Son and my Daughter) although I do NOT believe requiring a permit to carry a gun, either openly or concealed, is Constitutional.

I have hunted all my life. Deer, elk, rabbit, squirrel, geese, duck and the like. My family lives off game.

Now, to the point. The people who fear guns are those who know the least about them. Most of these folks wouldn't know which end of the barrel the bullet comes out of. All they "know" about guns is the propaganda they are fed with their morning coffee.

Right now, at this very minute, there are loaded rifles, shotguns and pistols throughout my home. All ready to fire. As of this writing, they have not killed me or my Wife. However, break into my home - and you WILL be carried out in a body bag. You WILL be shot dead by either myself or my Wife.

Guns are a tool, just like a hammer and a saw. In the right hands, they accomplish good things. In the wrong hands, chaos follows. It really is that simple.

The sorry part of the liberal argument is they want to ban guns on America streets when in truth one only needs to ban criminals from America streets.

 

[Elvis Obama]

this is in the CDZ because it gets a little old when some start talking sex organs and guns.....

soooo....

We are constantly told that if you carry a gun you are afraid.

Is this true.

No.

Carrying a gun for self defense is a rational response to the reality that even though I know where I live is ver safe, there are still criminals out there and that you never know when one will target you. These things happen every day, in every state, in every country.

How much fear goes into carrying a gun...for me....there is about as much emotion to carrying a gun as there is carrying my cell phone.

Now....the other side...the one that is constantly accusing my side of being afraid.....I believe that fear is what they feel....especially about guns. The don't like people, but they hate guns in the hands of people.

For example.

There are over 3,700,000 AR-15s in private hands in this country.

Each year maybe, maybe, 2-3 are used in any type of crime or even a mass shooting.

With those numbers, those who I believe fear guns want all AR-15s banned from private hands. To me, that is real fear. The numbers show that the odds of being a victim of a violent attack by an attacker with an AR-15 are so remote...you would actually have more of a chance of running into Big Foot and Elvis having Lunch with Aliens.....

And yet, they call for all AR-15s and other rifles like it to be completely banned.

And yet even if AR-15s are completely banned, there is not one crime that is committed on those rare occasions where an AR-15 is used that cannot be done to the same effect with a pistol, shot gun or other rifle or a combination of those......

Yet we are called scaredy cats for wearing a gun like we wear a cell phone or buckle our seat belts.

To a rational person....who sounds more afraid of guns...who sounds more filled with actual fear...?

Personally, it's a simple answer to a complicated question.

I have been around firearms since nearly the day I was born. I am a combat veteran and carried a gun nearly every day that I was in the Army. I have a CCW (as do my Wife, my Son and my Daughter) although I do NOT believe requiring a permit to carry a gun, either openly or concealed, is Constitutional.

I have hunted all my life. Deer, elk, rabbit, squirrel, geese, duck and the like. My family lives off game.

Now, to the point. The people who fear guns are those who know the least about them. Most of these folks wouldn't know which end of the barrel the bullet comes out of. All they "know" about guns is the propaganda they are fed with their morning coffee.

Right now, at this very minute, there are loaded rifles, shotguns and pistols throughout my home. All ready to fire. As of this writing, they have not killed me or my Wife. However, break into my home - and you WILL be carried out in a body bag. You WILL be shot dead by either myself or my Wife.

Guns are a tool, just like a hammer and a saw. In the right hands, they accomplish good things. In the wrong hands, chaos follows. It really is that simple.

"Guns are a tool, just like a hammer and a saw. In the right hands, they accomplish good things. In the wrong hands, chaos follows. It really is that simple."

I couldn't agree more. There are an awful lot of wrong hands filled with guns, though, aren't there? They're the problem, aren't they?

I'm curious, as a veteran of the military, do you believe in the concept of "soft power"?

 

[shadow355]

1) I have my concealed carry permit and have, since I got out off of Active Duty Military in 1991.

I carry a gun when I go camping. No if, ands or butts, I go in the woods....I carry a gun. More for stray dogs - rabid animals and coyotes.

For years, when I went camping, I carried a 5 shot "J" frame handgun in 38 caliber - so I was not some doomsday person with thousands of rounds of ammo. A 5 shot handgun and 5 rounds backup.

2) Concealed carry - firearms ; is about "being prepared". The shooting in the mall, super Wal-Mart parking lot does not occur, until you do not have a firearm. The workplace shooting, the violent shootout at the city park does not happen......until one does not have a handgun.

Carrying a handgun, and having the fortitude to use it is two different things. Some people will, and have.... "froze" when bullets start flying. Their mind, like in moderate hypothermia......freezes, and they cannot think straight in a life threatening situation, or traumatic event. The brain......appears to be in "neurogenic shock". or their body trembles like they are having a seizure.

But it boils down to one thing - be a victim ; possibly killed, paralyzed, or severely injured......or shoot the "bad guys".

When I was on a Volunteer Fire Department, I got my EMT-Basic, because I was showing up to some automobile collisions before the ambulance got to the scene, and I did not know what to do other than bleeding control, "C Spine", and talk to the patient.

After I got my EMT- Basic, I was working with some great Paramedics, and I told myself.....I want to do that. I want to work a good trauma, I want to investigate medical problems, I want to do a trauma assessment, I want to start IVs, and the list goes on. So I worked full time and went to Paramedic Class; which was in no way was an easy tasks. It was extremely difficult working full time on an ambulance and going to Paramedic Class. But I did it, graduating with a 3.5 GPA and I was in the top of my class on graduation day.

Being able to stop a shooting, a kidnapping, a rape, a violent assault, a drug induced person committing violence with a weapon, prevent or stop the workplace shooting.......is better than having your hands tied, or be totally helpless. To say to yourself at the funeral(s) "If only I had carried my handgun". I have in other situations.....been helpless, having had to wait for better trained resources. I have had on many occasion.....my hands ties and not able to do anything to a "damaged" person. So I know what it fells like to "Not be able to do anything". I overcame some of those problems.....I got my EMT - Basic and my Paramedic certification - busting my butt tremendously to do so.

Feeling helpless is not a feeling to endure - and it plays on the mind and psyche sometimes. Knowing that "I could have done something." Feeling helpless sometimes.......leaves a long lasing feeling of regret.


I know.......from experience.


Shadow 355

"Carrying a handgun, and having the fortitude to use it is two different things. Some people will, and have.... "froze" when bullets start flying. Their mind, like in moderate hypothermia......freezes, and they cannot think straight in a life threatening situation, or traumatic event. The brain......appears to be in "neurogenic shock". or their body trembles like they are having a seizure."

Sounds like the speech Gene Hackman gives in "Unforgiven". He was the Sheriff, though, and he stripped everyone of their guns as they came to town. Shooting guns is MY job, was the message. Vigilantism is not welcome in the town of Big Whisky.

So, what's changed?

Yeah...nice theory...but realty shows you are wrong. a,ericans use guns 1.5 million times a year to stop violent criminal attack and save lives......and they are not all Navy Seals or Delta Operators.........

you anti gunners always say the normal gun owner can't protect themselves and reality shows you wrong over and over again....

try to do some research......

Here - here. ( raises beer )

Shadow 355

 

[oldsoul]

Preventing the CDC from doing their research is a product of paranoia.

So, are you saying that it is a product of paranoia to question the intentions, and authenticity of findings from a Government Program? Just a question for clarity.

If you reject the CDC as a source of credible information then you should not cite them as support for your position.

Never did.

You still have not addressed the issue, you are still stuck in the "I must discredit my detractors" mentality. I know, it's tough to get out of that place once you are there but, to have a rational debate, you must.

No it's not a unreasonable to question the intentions or credibility of anyone, government or private sector.

If you believe I have not addressed the issue, then you must state exactly what you believe the issue to be. The subject of the thread is guns and fear. People block the CDC from doing their job out of fear. What is it you don't understand?

" If not for the knee-jerk reaction of these people we could address the problem of gun violence in exactly the same way we deal with other health threats..." Your words. What is it you do not understand, you stated what the issue is and now you are going to play dumb, as if I brought this up? That is disingenuous at best.

Now, state your case that pertains to the issue YOU defined.

OK. Forgive me, I found your initial post to be incomprehensible. You referred to "it" without defining what "it" was. Then you said:

"If you, truely want to "...address the problem of gun violence in exactly the same way we deal with other health threats..." then address it already. Otherwise you are wasting everyone's time."

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. My initial statement was:

"exactly the same way we deal with other health threats, automotive death, smoking, workplace safety."

What do you expect me to do? I was referring to "we", meaning American society. We address the problem of gun violence deaths differently than we do any other major cause of death. There have been many controversies in automotive safety, but nothing like the barrage of absolute obstructionism that greets any and all attempts to deal with the problem of gun deaths.

At the beginning of this thread I posted a partial list of absurdities, which elicited no reaction except something about liberals suppressing Christian faith healing, which was a surefire way to cure mental illness.

CDZ - Fear and guns....a discussion.

What do you expect me to do?

Define, exactly, how "we" should go about addressing the issue.

 

[Elvis Obama]

Preventing the CDC from doing their research is a product of paranoia.

So, are you saying that it is a product of paranoia to question the intentions, and authenticity of findings from a Government Program? Just a question for clarity.

If you reject the CDC as a source of credible information then you should not cite them as support for your position.

Never did.

You still have not addressed the issue, you are still stuck in the "I must discredit my detractors" mentality. I know, it's tough to get out of that place once you are there but, to have a rational debate, you must.

No it's not a unreasonable to question the intentions or credibility of anyone, government or private sector.

If you believe I have not addressed the issue, then you must state exactly what you believe the issue to be. The subject of the thread is guns and fear. People block the CDC from doing their job out of fear. What is it you don't understand?

" If not for the knee-jerk reaction of these people we could address the problem of gun violence in exactly the same way we deal with other health threats..." Your words. What is it you do not understand, you stated what the issue is and now you are going to play dumb, as if I brought this up? That is disingenuous at best.

Now, state your case that pertains to the issue YOU defined.

OK. Forgive me, I found your initial post to be incomprehensible. You referred to "it" without defining what "it" was. Then you said:

"If you, truely want to "...address the problem of gun violence in exactly the same way we deal with other health threats..." then address it already. Otherwise you are wasting everyone's time."

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. My initial statement was:

"exactly the same way we deal with other health threats, automotive death, smoking, workplace safety."

What do you expect me to do? I was referring to "we", meaning American society. We address the problem of gun violence deaths differently than we do any other major cause of death. There have been many controversies in automotive safety, but nothing like the barrage of absolute obstructionism that greets any and all attempts to deal with the problem of gun deaths.

At the beginning of this thread I posted a partial list of absurdities, which elicited no reaction except something about liberals suppressing Christian faith healing, which was a surefire way to cure mental illness.

CDZ - Fear and guns....a discussion.

What do you expect me to do?

Define, exactly, how "we" should go about addressing the issue.

"We" implies public policy. Public policy is a process of dealing with problems. Step one, is there a problem? I say, yes. There is a problem. The problem is the disproportionate number of US citizens who meet their end through the use of firearms, as compared to other countries.

Now, of course, there are many who deny the value of the rest of the world. Who deny the existence of soft power. Who are threatened by globalization and the ever increasing diversity that such a trend creates in modern societies. I am sorry for their anxiety, but I can't share it. The rest of the world is important and soft power is power. Anything that diminishes it makes us less safe and less prosperous.

There are, of course, many other problems, many factors which go into driving our gun death numbers up. They must be examined and dealt with individually. The spectacular, headline grabbing deaths aren't important, in the overall picture, even though they are, of course, individual tragedies. The main cause of gun death numbers are suicide and inner city violence. That is where we need to concentrate our efforts. There is no reason not to treat these deaths exactly as we treat any others. We should employ the flawed process of marshaling our experts and trying to come up with solutions. Flawed, but it has worked many, many times. Unleash the brain trust and they'll give you an A bomb, or the internet.

 

[oldsoul]

So, are you saying that it is a product of paranoia to question the intentions, and authenticity of findings from a Government Program? Just a question for clarity.
Never did.

You still have not addressed the issue, you are still stuck in the "I must discredit my detractors" mentality. I know, it's tough to get out of that place once you are there but, to have a rational debate, you must.

No it's not a unreasonable to question the intentions or credibility of anyone, government or private sector.

If you believe I have not addressed the issue, then you must state exactly what you believe the issue to be. The subject of the thread is guns and fear. People block the CDC from doing their job out of fear. What is it you don't understand?

" If not for the knee-jerk reaction of these people we could address the problem of gun violence in exactly the same way we deal with other health threats..." Your words. What is it you do not understand, you stated what the issue is and now you are going to play dumb, as if I brought this up? That is disingenuous at best.

Now, state your case that pertains to the issue YOU defined.

OK. Forgive me, I found your initial post to be incomprehensible. You referred to "it" without defining what "it" was. Then you said:

"If you, truely want to "...address the problem of gun violence in exactly the same way we deal with other health threats..." then address it already. Otherwise you are wasting everyone's time."

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. My initial statement was:

"exactly the same way we deal with other health threats, automotive death, smoking, workplace safety."

What do you expect me to do? I was referring to "we", meaning American society. We address the problem of gun violence deaths differently than we do any other major cause of death. There have been many controversies in automotive safety, but nothing like the barrage of absolute obstructionism that greets any and all attempts to deal with the problem of gun deaths.

At the beginning of this thread I posted a partial list of absurdities, which elicited no reaction except something about liberals suppressing Christian faith healing, which was a surefire way to cure mental illness.

CDZ - Fear and guns....a discussion.

What do you expect me to do?

Define, exactly, how "we" should go about addressing the issue.

"We" implies public policy. Public policy is a process of dealing with problems. Step one, is there a problem? I say, yes. There is a problem. The problem is the disproportionate number of US citizens who meet their end through the use of firearms, as compared to other countries.

Now, of course, there are many who deny the value of the rest of the world. Who deny the existence of soft power. Who are threatened by globalization and the ever increasing diversity that such a trend creates in modern societies. I am sorry for their anxiety, but I can't share it. The rest of the world is important and soft power is power. Anything that diminishes it makes us less safe and less prosperous.

There are, of course, many other problems, many factors which go into driving our gun death numbers up. They must be examined and dealt with individually. The spectacular, headline grabbing deaths aren't important, in the overall picture, even though they are, of course, individual tragedies. The main cause of gun death numbers are suicide and inner city violence. That is where we need to concentrate our efforts. There is no reason not to treat these deaths exactly as we treat any others. We should employ the flawed process of marshaling our experts and trying to come up with solutions. Flawed, but it has worked many, many times. Unleash the brain trust and they'll give you an A bomb, or the internet.

So, as I read it, and correct me if I am wrong, but the problem is that there are more gun-related deaths, per capita, in the U.S. than other, I assume industrialized, countries. If this is correct, do you have verifiable statistics that one could reveiw to support such a claim? Furthermore, are you simply attempting to define the problem, loosly, or are you working towards accually addressing it? If you mean to address it, how would you go about it? If you are simply attempting to define the problem, then I would argue that you have done a respectable job, considering the other "attempts" I have seen, of doing so. However, The definition of the problem you present, IMO, still falls short. The problem, IMO, is not the deaths (though tragic), it is why the deaths are occuring. That, my freind, is the real problem. A problem which I am wholly unprepared, and unqualified to define, much less discuss. I have theories, but nothing to substantiate them other than my own, subjective, observations. This is the area that I beleive needs to be defined, studied and addressed.

It is not the guns that are the problem, it is the people using them. Until we, as a "global" society accept this fact and address it properly, the problem will persist, and may indeed become worse.

Here is an example to clearly define what I mean:

• A person goes to the doctor because they are ill. The doctor, through various tests, determines that the person is dying. They go about treating the symptoms of the ailment, without really discovering what the illness is, and tell the patient, "At least we are doing something."
• Same person goes to a different doctor and, through further testing, it is determined they are dying of cancer. This second doctor defines, in detail, what the illness is, ie lung cancer. They then go about treating the specific type of cancer discovered. Wouldn't you know, the patient, through thourogh investigation/study, and proper treatment, gets better.

Which senario do you think is better? Which senario do you think is being modeled in the "gun debate"?

 

[Elvis Obama]

No it's not a unreasonable to question the intentions or credibility of anyone, government or private sector.

If you believe I have not addressed the issue, then you must state exactly what you believe the issue to be. The subject of the thread is guns and fear. People block the CDC from doing their job out of fear. What is it you don't understand?

" If not for the knee-jerk reaction of these people we could address the problem of gun violence in exactly the same way we deal with other health threats..." Your words. What is it you do not understand, you stated what the issue is and now you are going to play dumb, as if I brought this up? That is disingenuous at best.

Now, state your case that pertains to the issue YOU defined.

OK. Forgive me, I found your initial post to be incomprehensible. You referred to "it" without defining what "it" was. Then you said:

"If you, truely want to "...address the problem of gun violence in exactly the same way we deal with other health threats..." then address it already. Otherwise you are wasting everyone's time."

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. My initial statement was:

"exactly the same way we deal with other health threats, automotive death, smoking, workplace safety."

What do you expect me to do? I was referring to "we", meaning American society. We address the problem of gun violence deaths differently than we do any other major cause of death. There have been many controversies in automotive safety, but nothing like the barrage of absolute obstructionism that greets any and all attempts to deal with the problem of gun deaths.

At the beginning of this thread I posted a partial list of absurdities, which elicited no reaction except something about liberals suppressing Christian faith healing, which was a surefire way to cure mental illness.

CDZ - Fear and guns....a discussion.

What do you expect me to do?

Define, exactly, how "we" should go about addressing the issue.

"We" implies public policy. Public policy is a process of dealing with problems. Step one, is there a problem? I say, yes. There is a problem. The problem is the disproportionate number of US citizens who meet their end through the use of firearms, as compared to other countries.

Now, of course, there are many who deny the value of the rest of the world. Who deny the existence of soft power. Who are threatened by globalization and the ever increasing diversity that such a trend creates in modern societies. I am sorry for their anxiety, but I can't share it. The rest of the world is important and soft power is power. Anything that diminishes it makes us less safe and less prosperous.

There are, of course, many other problems, many factors which go into driving our gun death numbers up. They must be examined and dealt with individually. The spectacular, headline grabbing deaths aren't important, in the overall picture, even though they are, of course, individual tragedies. The main cause of gun death numbers are suicide and inner city violence. That is where we need to concentrate our efforts. There is no reason not to treat these deaths exactly as we treat any others. We should employ the flawed process of marshaling our experts and trying to come up with solutions. Flawed, but it has worked many, many times. Unleash the brain trust and they'll give you an A bomb, or the internet.

So, as I read it, and correct me if I am wrong, but the problem is that there are more gun-related deaths, per capita, in the U.S. than other, I assume industrialized, countries. If this is correct, do you have verifiable statistics that one could reveiw to support such a claim? Furthermore, are you simply attempting to define the problem, loosly, or are you working towards accually addressing it? If you mean to address it, how would you go about it? If you are simply attempting to define the problem, then I would argue that you have done a respectable job, considering the other "attempts" I have seen, of doing so. However, The definition of the problem you present, IMO, still falls short. The problem, IMO, is not the deaths (though tragic), it is why the deaths are occuring. That, my freind, is the real problem. A problem which I am wholly unprepared, and unqualified to define, much less discuss. I have theories, but nothing to substantiate them other than my own, subjective, observations. This is the area that I beleive needs to be defined, studied and addressed.

It is not the guns that are the problem, it is the people using them. Until we, as a "global" society accept this fact and address it properly, the problem will persist, and may indeed become worse.

Here is an example to clearly define what I mean:

• A person goes to the doctor because they are ill. The doctor, through various tests, determines that the person is dying. They go about treating the symptoms of the ailment, without really discovering what the illness is, and tell the patient, "At least we are doing something."
• Same person goes to a different doctor and, through further testing, it is determined they are dying of cancer. This second doctor defines, in detail, what the illness is, ie lung cancer. They then go about treating the specific type of cancer discovered. Wouldn't you know, the patient, through thourogh investigation/study, and proper treatment, gets better.

Which senario do you think is better? Which senario do you think is being modeled in the "gun debate"?

"So, as I read it, and correct me if I am wrong, but the problem is that there are more gun-related deaths, per capita, in the U.S. than other, I assume industrialized, countries."

It's not a question of fact, it's a matter of gossip. Countries are terrible gossips. And what do they whisper about us? "Wild Wild West". Uncivilized.

U.S. Gun Policy: Global Comparisons

As for the rest, well, I have no specifics to offer you. I agree that dealing with symptoms is pointless. I am not at all sure how the role guns play in suicides should be characterized, a symptom or part of the disease. I've certainly read opinions that the easy availability of firearms contributes to suicide rates. That seems self-evident to me, but I am more than willing to submit the proposition to analysis by experts, flawed though they may be. I was glad to find that the CDC had discovered information which seemed to support the idea of firearms being useful for home and personal security. You never know what you'll find before the study is conducted.