Fear And Frustration Over EPA Move To Kill Chemical-Disaster Protections

[bripat9643]

Possession, storage, shipping of chemicals is regulated to the nth degree at the federal level just relax.

Apparently NOT enough, given what has happened at multiple disasters because this information is not shared with communities or first responders.

Name one "disaster" where these regulations would have saved a single life.

Obama was elected in 2008, regulations to avoid that would have saved lives.

His regulations wouldn't have avoided it. moron. That's what I just explained to you. Manganese isn't a toxic chemical. It's a metal. In fact, it's not even flamable.

LMAO I was insulting Obama, regulations to avoid Obama's election, that joke flew over your head.

I guess so. I still don't get it. What "regulations to avoid Obama's election?"

 

[bripat9643]

Possession, storage, shipping of chemicals is regulated to the nth degree at the federal level just relax.

Apparently NOT enough, given what has happened at multiple disasters because this information is not shared with communities or first responders.

Name one "disaster" where these regulations would have saved a single life.

Obama was elected in 2008, regulations to avoid that would have saved lives.

His regulations wouldn't have avoided it. moron. That's what I just explained to you. Manganese isn't a toxic chemical. It's a metal. In fact, it's not even flamable.

Until you douse it with water.

Hmmmm, no. Manganese doesn't burst into flame on contact with water, especially not when it's in ingot form.

 

[Nosmo King]

Apparently NOT enough, given what has happened at multiple disasters because this information is not shared with communities or first responders.

Name one "disaster" where these regulations would have saved a single life.

Obama was elected in 2008, regulations to avoid that would have saved lives.

His regulations wouldn't have avoided it. moron. That's what I just explained to you. Manganese isn't a toxic chemical. It's a metal. In fact, it's not even flamable.

Until you douse it with water.

Hmmmm, no. Manganese doesn't burst into flame on contact with water, especially not when it's in ingot form.

Your whole anti-informative n, anti-regulation argument hinges on the flash point of manganese?

Picking fly shit out of pepper. Weak.

 

[bripat9643]

Name one "disaster" where these regulations would have saved a single life.

Obama was elected in 2008, regulations to avoid that would have saved lives.

His regulations wouldn't have avoided it. moron. That's what I just explained to you. Manganese isn't a toxic chemical. It's a metal. In fact, it's not even flamable.

Until you douse it with water.

Hmmmm, no. Manganese doesn't burst into flame on contact with water, especially not when it's in ingot form.

Your whole anti-informative n, anti-regulation argument hinges on the flash point of manganese?

Picking fly shit out of pepper. Weak.

No it doesn't. Your anti-freedom rant is based on whether Manganese is flamable.

 

[Nosmo King]

Obama was elected in 2008, regulations to avoid that would have saved lives.

His regulations wouldn't have avoided it. moron. That's what I just explained to you. Manganese isn't a toxic chemical. It's a metal. In fact, it's not even flamable.

Until you douse it with water.

Hmmmm, no. Manganese doesn't burst into flame on contact with water, especially not when it's in ingot form.

Your whole anti-informative n, anti-regulation argument hinges on the flash point of manganese?

Picking fly shit out of pepper. Weak.

No it doesn't. Your anti-freedom rant is based on whether Manganese is flamable.

I never rant against freedom, but you certainly do. Project much?

 

[bripat9643]

His regulations wouldn't have avoided it. moron. That's what I just explained to you. Manganese isn't a toxic chemical. It's a metal. In fact, it's not even flamable.

Until you douse it with water.

Hmmmm, no. Manganese doesn't burst into flame on contact with water, especially not when it's in ingot form.

Your whole anti-informative n, anti-regulation argument hinges on the flash point of manganese?

Picking fly shit out of pepper. Weak.

No it doesn't. Your anti-freedom rant is based on whether Manganese is flamable.

I never rant against freedom, but you certainly do. Project much?

You are constantly ranting against freedom.

Who do you think you're fooling?

 

[Vandalshandle]

Relax. this could never happen again.....

Picher, Oklahoma: The Biggest Environmental Disaster You’ve Never Heard Of

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Seriously? Why? This is a total giftwrapped do-as-you-wish package to industry and it makes no sense. These regulations were common sense and they benefit the larger community and especially emergency responders!

Fear And Frustration Over EPA Move To Kill Chemical-Disaster Protections

Obama-era rules require companies to routinely disclose which hazardous chemicals they use, share information with emergency planners, submit to outside audits and publish reports on the root causes of explosions and leaks. The regulations were supposed to take effect in March 2017, but earlier that year, groups representing the chemical and petroleum industries petitioned the EPA to reconsider.

Last month, after delaying the rules, the agency announced that it intends to block most of them from ever taking effect. But that decision isn't final pending public comment.

At the time, EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt said the plan would "reduce unnecessary regulatory burdens, address the concerns of stakeholders and emergency responders on the ground, and save Americans roughly $88 million a year."...

...But this "bad apple" idea ignores the importance of preparing for leaks and other disasters, local emergency planners say.

"The entire community is responsible for preparedness. That means the entire community needs to understand the risks to the community," Timothy Gablehouse, who leads a local emergency planning committee outside Denver, told the EPA panel. "The response does not begin at the 911 call."

He and others cited the deaths of first responders in West, Texas as well as Hurricane Harvey-caused fires at the Arkema chemical plant outside Houston last year. Police and other first responders involved in the Arkema incident said they were exposed to toxic fumes partly because local officials didn't have enough information about what was stored at the plant, and how to handle an emergency like the one that unfolded during the storm.

The rules the EPA wants to rescind would require companies to disclose information to local emergency planners about the types and amounts of hazardous chemicals at their facilities. In their petition to the EPA, industry groups say disclosing such information "could expose vulnerabilities to terrorists and others who may target refineries, chemical plants and other facilities."

The chemical and oil industries have a long history of opposing anti-terror regulations that require them to switch to safer technologies.​

I find that hard to believe.
Every machine shop I've ever worked in has a list of the chemicals they use and the hazards they may pose.
I'll get with my buddy who still works in one and see if they still have that list.

Ya wanna make a bet they're still there?

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

We should enourage communities to demand what chemicals they might be exposed to industry wise. Any industry worth having would be willing to provide this information with those who may come in contact with them. If an industry is not wanted because of those chemicals let the people of the community send them somewhere else.

Those industries are generally there long before the people moved in.
It's kinda like those idiots that buy a house near an airport and then complain about the noise.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

James Madison never saw Love Canal. We aren't talking about a tallow works or tannery.

Nice deflection, care to answer why communities aren't responsible for taking care of THEIR citizens? Different communities have different assets to address these concerns. Why do regressives insist on a one size fits all federal regulatory regime? Well other than being statist that is.


.

Maybe because those different systems and assets failed them or carry insufficient weight. Multiple times. Perhaps that is when the federal system needs to step in. It’s worth noting that those communities, many deeply red, aren’t too happy with this.

Or maybe the local folks should reevaluate what they have and how it could be improved. The previous systems worked pretty well until something unanticipated happened, give them a chance to fix it before you put the boot of government on their necks. I know you have no faith in people in flyover country, but we have some pretty smart ones despite your snobby opinion.


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The local folks are the ones in favor of this regulation. The chemical industries are not.

I don't think you can support that statement.

Here's just one resource available to chemical plants and cities.

Chemical Plant Emergency Preparedness and Response Planning

I know local governments in TX have disaster drills with local refineries and plants.


.

Yep.....
Material safety data sheets are prominently displayed at every machine shop I've ever worked in and at chem plants and they're readily available for the public to view.

 

[DOTR]

Possession, storage, shipping of chemicals is regulated to the nth degree at the federal level just relax.

We have both HAZWOPPER and HAZOPS where I work. Every year we waste days and weeks and months just updating paperwork. Usually for at least a month a year (kind of varies until the job is done) a man is set up on just that one job from each department. A month at least of reading fine print and confirming that we have jumped through all the hoops. And not just the EPA. The DOT rules are as numerous since we ship nationally.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Apparently NOT enough, given what has happened at multiple disasters because this information is not shared with communities or first responders.

Name one "disaster" where these regulations would have saved a single life.

Obama was elected in 2008, regulations to avoid that would have saved lives.

His regulations wouldn't have avoided it. moron. That's what I just explained to you. Manganese isn't a toxic chemical. It's a metal. In fact, it's not even flamable.

Until you douse it with water.

Hmmmm, no. Manganese doesn't burst into flame on contact with water, especially not when it's in ingot form.

It takes a shitload of heat to get manganese to burn in ingot form but it will burn quite easily when in the form of shavings.
When you machine it you're required to have the proper fire extinguishers on hand.
We use to ball up the shavings and put a lighter to em and throw em.
Looked like a shooting star it burned so bright.

 

[Coyote]

Apparently NOT enough, given what has happened at multiple disasters because this information is not shared with communities or first responders.

Name one "disaster" where these regulations would have saved a single life.

Easy! Early 2011. First responders arrived at a steel processing mill just twenty five miles down river from me. The firefighters were not told about a pallet of drums containing manganese. When they hit the fire with water, it exploded the manganese and killed three.

Some folks think there's never a sound reason for regulations. These are the same folks who lose health, life or property after a disaster shouting "There oughta be a law!"

Manganese isn't a toxic chemical, dumbass. It wouldn't have even been covered by this regulation. If the fire fighters had simply contacted the plant management, they would have been told about the manganese.

The accident was the first responder's fault? They came to that facility to save lives and property. Shouldn't the facility owner bear some responsibility to keep those first responders alive?

Yeah, it was their fault. Responders have a responsibility to be smart about what they do. Showering water everywhere the minute they show up at an industrial fire is not smart. Any firefighter should know what they are spraying water on before the turn on the hoses.

And this regulation would insure that they would what was there ahead of time and no time woukd be wasted trying to track down people who might know.

 

[BluesLegend]

Apparently NOT enough, given what has happened at multiple disasters because this information is not shared with communities or first responders.

Name one "disaster" where these regulations would have saved a single life.

Obama was elected in 2008, regulations to avoid that would have saved lives.

His regulations wouldn't have avoided it. moron. That's what I just explained to you. Manganese isn't a toxic chemical. It's a metal. In fact, it's not even flamable.

LMAO I was insulting Obama, regulations to avoid Obama's election, that joke flew over your head.

I guess so. I still don't get it. What "regulations to avoid Obama's election?"

You said name one disaster (my disaster was Obama) where these regulations would have saved a single life. ANYWAY...lol.

 

[BluesLegend]

Name one "disaster" where these regulations would have saved a single life.

Obama was elected in 2008, regulations to avoid that would have saved lives.

His regulations wouldn't have avoided it. moron. That's what I just explained to you. Manganese isn't a toxic chemical. It's a metal. In fact, it's not even flamable.

Until you douse it with water.

Hmmmm, no. Manganese doesn't burst into flame on contact with water, especially not when it's in ingot form.

It takes a shitload of heat to get manganese to burn in ingot form but it will burn quite easily when in the form of shavings.
When you machine it you're required to have the proper fire extinguishers on hand.
We use to ball up the shavings and put a lighter to em and throw em.
Looked like a shooting star it burned so bright.

I remember a home hobby machinist who set his manual lathe on fire turning an alloy with manganese in it, may have been titanium.

 

[flacaltenn]

Possession, storage, shipping of chemicals is regulated to the nth degree at the federal level just relax.

Apparently NOT enough, given what has happened at multiple disasters because this information is not shared with communities or first responders.

The problem is what chemicals are required to be disclosed. It's like the stupid Cali cancer sign law. It's on supermarkets, drug stores, YMCAs, daycare centers.There's hardly a doorway that does NOT have one on it. So what happens is --- IT HAS NO EFFECT ON PUBLIC SAFETY.. It's taken to moronic extremes in the leftist paradises like..

California moves to clear coffee of cancer-risk stigma

People completely ignore the warnings. Because it's over designed. YET --- every Cali business has to regularly have a Prop whatever expert AUDIT their place of Biz and file reports.

On an industrial scale, as several posters already pointed out ALL industrial chemicals are classified into groups. These groups are ALREADY highly regulated and licensed and subject to SIGNAGE everywhere they are used. Because of this -- the burden should be on LOCAL first responders to just do the walk-thrus and audits and RECORD the signage and storage locations.

The examples in the NPR piece were disasters at oil refineries and fertilizer plants. Situations that ALREADY are well known hazards. If you actually read Page 4 of the announcement here -- -- 2018 Proposed Rule Change

there IS NO PLAN to scrap the entire rule revision. Read the paragraphs on Pg 4 beginning with "the EPA is proposing to modify the exercise program" -- it's about reducing the FREQUENCY of reporting and forced audits. And since this applies to a BROAD RANGE of industries -- such as Food/Beverage/Medical -- that have no REAL history of "chemical disaster" under regulation -- it's only prudent to MINIMIZE the regulation compliance costs for businesses. If the minions of morons in the bureaucracy had a collective brain between them --- they would PRIORITIZE those fixed sites and write different LEVELS of compliance and audits for each level. But they don't have a brain between them to recognize the relative dangers of a refinery or a medical pathology lab...

 

[flacaltenn]

NO!


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And crime is not a national concern? How else will police be equipped to take down an active shooter? How will they be equipped to crack down on the opioid crisis? How will they be equipped and trained to crack down on your own biggest boogeyman, illegal immigrants? Muslims and those uppity Negroes?

For a group that shouts "law and order?", you sure have wacky notions on how to make that happen. You willingly pay for national defense. What about the threats heroes face right here at home?

State law enforcement agencies should be funded by the State, counties and localities. Remember this:

The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. -James Madison Federalist 45

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Two errors in your judgment.

First, the Federalist Papers are not the law of the land. The founding fathers were not infallible. They built in the option of changing and amending the constitution at the will of the people. The Federalist Papers amounts to commentary, but not precedent.

And James Madison knew nothing about how this nation would eventually grow and drive the economy, security and viability of the world. There were no corporations in Madison's time. Nothing more hazardous than a back yard forge or a water driven saw mill.

If corporations are people too, they can certainly bear standards that not only protect their own property and employees, but their neighbors and the health and safety of those who show up to help that corporation's disaster.

You have yet to come up with a viable argument why the States and localities are incapable of instituting regulations they feel are necessary in this regard.


.

For the reasons I worked with for twenty years.

I am an Environmental engineer by training. I'm retired now.

Back in my Environmental days, I would have projects at U.S. Navy bases up and down the east coast. From Quincy, MA to Hampton Roads, VA. I can tell you that the service-wide standards in the Navy made my projects go much smoother. The bidding process for local contractors went especially smoothly. Their employees, methods and materials were consistent all along the coast.

I also had private sector clients in many of the same states. Every facility had to be considered for contractor and employee licensing requirements, hazardous waste disposal facilities, even PELs (Personal Exposure Limits). All that added to the cost and, ultimately, the assurance of quality workmanship when dealing with hazardous materials.

And yet it's the military bases, weapons plants and shipyards that are some of the BIGGEST TOXIC hazards in America. Just the potential disasters from old nuclear weapons plants that store radioactive waste in leaking 50 gallon drums and where they BURY IN PLACE bulldozers that are too radioactive to shove the shit around anymore is ARGUABLY -- the largest enviro blight on America. In terms of water table and air contamination.

The Fed govt does NOT have "clean hands" when it comes to "preparedness, or mitigation" of toxic hazards. In FACT -- they get away with murder while STRANGLING everyone else. Like the clean nuclear power industry. It's squeaky clean compared to the absolute environmental horrors of Hanford, Savannah River or Oak Ridge.

 

[flacaltenn]

Seriously -- Have the EPA go fix the million gallons of leaking nuclear waste at Hanford, Savannah River, and Oak Ridge. And get the toxic waste out of abandoned military sites. And THEN tighten up the alreadying confusing, intrusive, and wasteful micro-managing of too many industries with brainless one size fits all policies and regs.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Obama was elected in 2008, regulations to avoid that would have saved lives.

His regulations wouldn't have avoided it. moron. That's what I just explained to you. Manganese isn't a toxic chemical. It's a metal. In fact, it's not even flamable.

Until you douse it with water.

Hmmmm, no. Manganese doesn't burst into flame on contact with water, especially not when it's in ingot form.

It takes a shitload of heat to get manganese to burn in ingot form but it will burn quite easily when in the form of shavings.
When you machine it you're required to have the proper fire extinguishers on hand.
We use to ball up the shavings and put a lighter to em and throw em.
Looked like a shooting star it burned so bright.

I remember a home hobby machinist who set his manual lathe on fire turning an alloy with manganese in it, may have been titanium.

It can definitely happen.
More so in home shops because a lot of em dont run coolant,while cutting oil may make your tool last longer it doesnt do much to dissipate heat.

 

[bripat9643]

Relax. this could never happen again.....

Picher, Oklahoma: The Biggest Environmental Disaster You’ve Never Heard Of

Lead wasn't even known to be toxic in those days, moron.