If the Fire Department isn't getting enough money, I'd prefer this to them increasing my taxes.
FDNY Set To Institute Crash Tax
- Thread starter Intense
- Start date
If the Fire Department isn't getting enough money, I'd prefer this to them increasing my taxes.
- Thread starter
- #22
You might try reading the opening Post.This is a proposed new Fee for resopnding to Accidents. This is not standard in any way.
I realize that this is not the same thing. But how is it "outrageous"? If an Ambulance can bill you to save your life, why not the people who cut you out of your car?
I would have a problem with this is they demanded money up front, or refused to help people who didn't pay. But I see no problem with sending a bill later.
Sorry Charlie, I have known too many Firemen in my life. You are looking at the world through calculator lenses, in emergency response that is not what it is about at all. It's the type of thing you probably never will understand, either it's in you or it's not, and it definitely is not in you. You should disclose if you work for an Ambulance Company. Ever notice how big they donate to political campaigns???? NYC has it's own ambulances, paid for and operated with tax money. Only under an asshole mayor like Bloomberg, would a silly notion like this be given credence. Maybe they should charge to snow plow too. Maybe we should be charged another fee or surcharge just to make sure we pay for the service 10 times over. So what kind of Bureaucrat are you? Fed., State, Local?
You might try reading the opening Post.
I realize that this is not the same thing. But how is it "outrageous"? If an Ambulance can bill you to save your life, why not the people who cut you out of your car?
I would have a problem with this is they demanded money up front, or refused to help people who didn't pay. But I see no problem with sending a bill later.
Sorry Charlie, I have known too many Firemen in my life. You are looking at the world through calculator lenses, in emergency response that is not what it is about at all. It's the type of thing you probably never will understand, either it's in you or it's not, and it definitely is not in you. You should disclose if you work for an Ambulance Company. Ever notice how big they donate to political campaigns???? NYC has it's own ambulances, paid for and operated with tax money. Only under an asshole mayor like Bloomberg, would a silly notion like this be given credence. Maybe they should charge to snow plow too. Maybe we should be charged another fee or surcharge just to make sure we pay for the service 10 times over. So what kind of Bureaucrat are you? Fed., State, Local?
Suits and ties don't suit me, I'm not a bureaucrat, I'm a political consultant.
What have I said that makes you think I work for an Ambulance company, or the city/state? Because I'm not "outraged" like you are? I've spent a lot of time with with firefighters in the FDNY - and like most other public services in NY, it's underfunded and stretched too thin. If the choice either my taxes going up, or a per-accident fee, I'd rather have the fee.
- Thread starter
- #24
Difference of opinion then. I view it as opening Pandora's Box. You want to do that, fine, drop all funding and charge per event and equipment used. Good luck with that.
EVERYTHING can be seen as "opening Pandora's Box", if that's the way you want to look at it. The problem with the slippery-slope argument is that it doesn't require evidence. This is the way I look at it:
1. New York is the greatest city in the world
2. We rely on FDNY and NYPD to protect and serve us.
3. The FDNY budget is stretched too thin. Lowered tax revenues and funding cuts have caused firehouses to close all over the city, making us less safe.
4. I support this for the same reason that I supported Bloomberg's congestion pricing idea - the city needs the money, and I'd rather the money come from people that use the service, instead of my taxes going up.
Maybe this all comes from the fact that I don't drive.
- Thread starter
- #26
Ya Think!
Try thinking out of the box a minute here. If you had collision insurance and were in an accident, where you were at fault, that's a $500 deductible, plus a $500 NYFD Fee for responding. Think working poor. How about I charge the city for having to get my front end replaced every two years because of the pot holes. Let's start there. How about your Subway's being that you don't drive, the fare's don't cover the cost of the ride, there is your deficit. Parking Tickets, Red Light Ticket Cameras, Government Salaries increase, hours go down, it gets real old hearing about how everything is cut so thin. We just had a recent storm that took down so many of the trees that the Parks Department refuses to maintain. Talk about a waste of Government spending. The Mafia is more cooperative than that horror show of incompetents. Sorry Charlie, Bloomberg is a pompous ass, that hasn't a clue as to what he imposes on the working classes, Like Mel Brooks said, "It's nice to be King", pushing out the poor to make room for the Yuppy Class, isn't exactly going by unnoticed. Congestion pricing can also be translated into Price Gouging. That will bite you in the ass.
Quantum Windbag
Gold Member
- May 9, 2010
- 58,308
- 5,106
- 245
You prefer them hitting people who are poor and desperate over your taxes going up a few pennies a month?
Ya Think!
Try thinking out of the box a minute here. If you had collision insurance and were in an accident, where you were at fault, that's a $500 deductible, plus a $500 NYFD Fee for responding. Think working poor. How about I charge the city for having to get my front end replaced every two years because of the pot holes. Let's start there. How about your Subway's being that you don't drive, the fare's don't cover the cost of the ride, there is your deficit. Parking Tickets, Red Light Ticket Cameras, Government Salaries increase, hours go down, it gets real old hearing about how everything is cut so thin. We just had a recent storm that took down so many of the trees that the Parks Department refuses to maintain. Talk about a waste of Government spending. The Mafia is more cooperative than that horror show of incompetents. Sorry Charlie, Bloomberg is a pompous ass, that hasn't a clue as to what he imposes on the working classes, Like Mel Brooks said, "It's nice to be King", pushing out the poor to make room for the Yuppy Class, isn't exactly going by unnoticed. Congestion pricing can also be translated into Price Gouging. That will bite you in the ass.
I'm no fan of Emperor Bloomberg. Congestion pricing is about the only thing I agree with him on.
But you're accentuating my point. Everyone in NY has something to complain about in terms how the city is run, and yet, we all still live here. The largest city in America has a massive amount of infrastructure to maintain - and as you've pointed out, we're running a deficit. The MTA is in a deficit, the FDNY is in deficit, the NYPD is in deficit - and NY wouldn't be the greatest city in the world without those things. I'd rather pay for it than go farther into debt.
The "poor and desperate"? Nice rhetoric.
Aren't you Conservatives all about "personal responsibility"?
Trajan
conscientia mille testes
until you get mugged or ahem excuse me till you have an accident and get a 10k bill for help, which would have paid any added tax for you, your grandchildren and their grandchildren.
imho, they should raise the property tax allocation or however it is funded, its a general service.
Enjoying making up numbers? Did you read the article? 400 bucks isn't quite "10k".
And by the way, when I got hit by a truck that jumped the curb a few years ago, I certainly did receive a $3,000 Ambulance bill.
Quantum Windbag
Gold Member
- May 9, 2010
- 58,308
- 5,106
- 245
We are also about governments doing their job. Taxes pay for services like fire and police, and this is an all around stupid idea.
- Thread starter
- #33
Ambulance Services around the Country are very big money and very political. $500, $1000, or more Ambulance rides to the hospital or clinic, even for simple treatments where a cab ride would serve just as well, that are subsidized by Federal Programs. This is an abuse to the system, that profits the players immensely, at society's expense. Follow the money here.
- Thread starter
- #34
You want to save money by charging for services, how about a refocus on abuse and unnecessary ambulance runs, rather than screwing over justified need. How about we just learn to cut out the bullshit.
A sobering look at real waste of resource:
In my curiosity, I've asked many people just these questions. A few have tried to tell me that it is just a problem here in America because of "our health care system," although I find some of their reasoning to be fallacious. In fact, a Medline search will yield articles from around the world with many countries trying to grapple with the same problem, including Australia, England, and Japan.
Why do people use ambulances to come to the ER? Before visions of Johnny Gage from Emergency's Station 51 leap to your mind, read this list of common, non-emergent reasons people call an ambulance to transport them to the ER:
• I didn't have a ride
• There was an argument at home
• I thought I might be seen more quickly
• I wanted my family to know I was really sick
• I needed a prescription refill
Just by looking at the statistics at my own hospital, it seems a number of patients use the ambulance simply because they can. I sometimes ask patients why they come to the ER in an ambulance and rarely do they feel that their problem is life-threatening.
Take a look at what one study in London revealed:
• 75,000 calls annually (approx. 16 percent) were unanimously considered to be inappropriate
• 93,000 additional calls (approx. another 20 percent) were considered "possibly" unnecessary
Reported in J Accid Emerg Med. 1998 Nov;15(6):368-70.
That's a huge waste of time, energy, and money. Since I know that an ambulance ride generally isn't very cheap, somebody else must be picking up the tab, if it isn’t the patient.
Even Sweden is not without problems. A June 2007 article found a significant number of EMS transports did not need any pre-hospital interventions, and hence could have arrived safely via many other routes. They recommended that EMS agencies develop clear criteria for dispatch to assist people in the proper utilization of ambulances.( Eur J Emerg Med. 2007 Jun;14(3):151-6.)
So why is ambulance misuse and abuse a problem? To name a few issues:
• Overstaffing of ambulances is needed to weather the burden.
• Patients with real medical problems are forced to wait, and their care gets delayed.
• It is hard on morale for EMS providers if, after years of training, we are relegated to becoming a medical taxi. While driving a taxi is a worthy career choice, it does not take the same level of training, and is an inappropriate use of EMS talent.
• Imagine the waste of insurance dollars on ambulance charges that are unnecessary, or the loss to ambulance companies when/if a patient doesn't pay for their misuse of the system.
How did this happen?
It is my belief that there has been a societal shift over the last 20 years.
• As a society, we have weakened our definition of just what is an emergency.
• We have a McDonald’s mentality — "I want a cheeseburger, and I want it now" — without any delays.
• We seem unable to say "no," in large part because of fears of legal liability if we say no.
• When there are attempts to place reasonable limits of utilization, there seems to be an outcry of "Wait, you can't do that! What about …? It's not fair!"
Why Ambulance Abuse Happens and How to Fix It
A sobering look at real waste of resource:
In my curiosity, I've asked many people just these questions. A few have tried to tell me that it is just a problem here in America because of "our health care system," although I find some of their reasoning to be fallacious. In fact, a Medline search will yield articles from around the world with many countries trying to grapple with the same problem, including Australia, England, and Japan.
Why do people use ambulances to come to the ER? Before visions of Johnny Gage from Emergency's Station 51 leap to your mind, read this list of common, non-emergent reasons people call an ambulance to transport them to the ER:
• I didn't have a ride
• There was an argument at home
• I thought I might be seen more quickly
• I wanted my family to know I was really sick
• I needed a prescription refill
Just by looking at the statistics at my own hospital, it seems a number of patients use the ambulance simply because they can. I sometimes ask patients why they come to the ER in an ambulance and rarely do they feel that their problem is life-threatening.
Take a look at what one study in London revealed:
• 75,000 calls annually (approx. 16 percent) were unanimously considered to be inappropriate
• 93,000 additional calls (approx. another 20 percent) were considered "possibly" unnecessary
Reported in J Accid Emerg Med. 1998 Nov;15(6):368-70.
That's a huge waste of time, energy, and money. Since I know that an ambulance ride generally isn't very cheap, somebody else must be picking up the tab, if it isn’t the patient.
Even Sweden is not without problems. A June 2007 article found a significant number of EMS transports did not need any pre-hospital interventions, and hence could have arrived safely via many other routes. They recommended that EMS agencies develop clear criteria for dispatch to assist people in the proper utilization of ambulances.( Eur J Emerg Med. 2007 Jun;14(3):151-6.)
So why is ambulance misuse and abuse a problem? To name a few issues:
• Overstaffing of ambulances is needed to weather the burden.
• Patients with real medical problems are forced to wait, and their care gets delayed.
• It is hard on morale for EMS providers if, after years of training, we are relegated to becoming a medical taxi. While driving a taxi is a worthy career choice, it does not take the same level of training, and is an inappropriate use of EMS talent.
• Imagine the waste of insurance dollars on ambulance charges that are unnecessary, or the loss to ambulance companies when/if a patient doesn't pay for their misuse of the system.
How did this happen?
It is my belief that there has been a societal shift over the last 20 years.
• As a society, we have weakened our definition of just what is an emergency.
• We have a McDonald’s mentality — "I want a cheeseburger, and I want it now" — without any delays.
• We seem unable to say "no," in large part because of fears of legal liability if we say no.
• When there are attempts to place reasonable limits of utilization, there seems to be an outcry of "Wait, you can't do that! What about …? It's not fair!"
Why Ambulance Abuse Happens and How to Fix It
