Faustian Bargains

[Olde Europe]

So, I've made my Faustian Bargain. What's yours?

No Faustian Bargain here, and neither did you enter into one.

Let me roll up that whole thing sideways: It's the holier-than-thou Pharisees of the "I will not vote for the lesser evil" variety who really are the problem here - certainly not you, and not your "bargain". Even if Biden had that one serious lapse with Reade, the comparison with the serial predator on the other side doesn't even compute. Making of that the usual both-sides bullshit, another instance of "I am too good, too perfect, to vote for a mere human with warts" is a serious failure of responsibility - a Pontius Pilatian bargain, or a Trumpian one, if you will: "I take no responsibility at all!" With humans, the "lesser of two evils" it is, and forever will be. The fantasy world of "I found the ideal, finally, at long last, worthy of casting my vote for him / her" is childish. No one is on the side of the angels, and no one gets to vote for one.

That said, voting isn't just a choice between personalities, it's primarily a choice between two or more sets of policies - the usual personality cults on all sides, egged on by entertainment channels posing as serious media, notwithstanding.

Finally, the GOP and anyone voting for that party may not have lost their soul. I can't really determine what that's supposed to mean. They have, however, due to that prion disease of the brain, lost their mind. By now, they recognize no fact, nor any aspect of the Common Welfare the Constitution mandates as the center of the Union. Letting any of them anywhere near the levers of power is patently irresponsible, like entering a car driven by a horribly drunk driver.

 

[Mac1958]

Faustian bargain, a pact whereby a person trades something of supreme moral or spiritual importance, such as personal values or the soul, for some worldly or material benefit, such as knowledge, power, or riches.

Is that politics today?

First - a big shout out and thanks to Democrats for setting up impossible standards and today's standard of guilty until proven innocent with your "all women must be believed" and the weaponizing of sexual assault in a last ditch attempt to stop a Supreme Court nomination. You've shown us it's ok to smear a decent man publicly, if that is what it takes. That wasn't the way to do it and you've now set something in play the you can't stop.

Second - a big shout out and thanks to the Republicans who are willing to do anything and elect anything to office in order to preserve power. You have shown us it's ok for to elect a man with multiple lawsuits and allegations of sexual harassment, assault, and rape. You have shown us that lying, promoting senseless conspiracy theories, defending the indefensible and destroying the reputations of good public servants and our institutions of democracy to preserve a thin skinned idiot is worth any price.

Democrats - you've cemented in place, a trend. The result of that trend is no good decent man (and this applies more to men then women, though Hilary was subject to some of these types of attacks) - will run for office because all it takes is ALLEGATIONS - and the automatic presumption of guilt in situations that most of the time can't be proved one way or the other and never go to court or get settled in lawsuits. What good candidates have the armor, the courage, the ego or reputation to be willing to put themselves in that bullring? What does that leave us with? And now, it's all coming back on you.

Republicans - you've cemented in place a new NORM. Anything goes. If you have a majority, you can steal a Supreme Court nomination. You can push funds towards supporting and investigating baseless conspiracy theories. You get to redefine facts. You can destroy the reputations of public servants in the name of protecting your president. A faustian bargain indeed when you consider the traditional values of the party you have jettisoned in order to get power: fiscal conservatism, family values, morals.

The Democrats shot themselves in the foot with this one. The Republicans sold their souls.

I genuinely like Biden - as a person. I thought, and still think he's a fundamentally decent guy. Until he became a candidate none of this came up. But the accusations of pedophilia with no evidence hit well below the belt of being disgusting and it's shameless of to spread those kind of rumors about any man unless you have damn good evidence. Inappropriate touching? or comments? I can believe that. Intent behind them? Different people will say different things. Assault/rape? Less believable given the serious inconsistencies in Reade's account, no history in Biden's life, and no record of complaints. So what exactly is going on here? Well, in one way - Biden can thank his own party.

So what's your Faustian Bargain? Mine's easy. I'll vote for Biden if he is the candidate. I am not a Democrat and I am not a Republican, and I will not vote 3rd party. Why? Because the truth is - it will be a throw away vote and the price is too high to do that. Because in my view Trump is the most dangerous and incompetent president we've ever had. He is not only destroying our country, but our institutions. He is corrupting everything he touches and spreads lies every time he opens his mouth. Hyperbole? Maybe. But there is a basis of fact there.

Republicans: you have shown us you are willing to vote in someone with a record of allegations of harassment, rape, assault and it's ok. I will assume you fine with that in Biden and I will wait for you to defend him with your normal exclamations of "witch hunt" and "innocent until proven guilty" right?

Democrats: you have shown us "all women must be believed" regardless of evidence. I assume you will stand your ground here right? After you went after Kavanaugh publicly, rather than examine the allegations privately first?

I'm glad that Biden has called for personnel records to be released - if there was a formal complaint, there will be a record of it. I know how these things work.

It won't end there though. There will be a conspiracy theory if it isn't found. Wanna bet?

So, I've made my Faustian Bargain. What's yours?

I was waiting to see who Biden picked for his veep, with a third party as the alternative. But this behavior by the Dems over the Biden allegations is probably too much.

So, living in a purple state, I guess my Faustian Bargain is that I'll probably have to not vote Democrat, which would have been the best way to vote against Trump. I can't justify supporting this party (for a few reasons now). Just me.

 

[IM2]

Faustian bargain, a pact whereby a person trades something of supreme moral or spiritual importance, such as personal values or the soul, for some worldly or material benefit, such as knowledge, power, or riches.

Is that politics today?

First - a big shout out and thanks to Democrats for setting up impossible standards and today's standard of guilty until proven innocent with your "all women must be believed" and the weaponizing of sexual assault in a last ditch attempt to stop a Supreme Court nomination. You've shown us it's ok to smear a decent man publicly, if that is what it takes. That wasn't the way to do it and you've now set something in play the you can't stop.

Second - a big shout out and thanks to the Republicans who are willing to do anything and elect anything to office in order to preserve power. You have shown us it's ok for to elect a man with multiple lawsuits and allegations of sexual harassment, assault, and rape. You have shown us that lying, promoting senseless conspiracy theories, defending the indefensible and destroying the reputations of good public servants and our institutions of democracy to preserve a thin skinned idiot is worth any price.

Democrats - you've cemented in place, a trend. The result of that trend is no good decent man (and this applies more to men then women, though Hilary was subject to some of these types of attacks) - will run for office because all it takes is ALLEGATIONS - and the automatic presumption of guilt in situations that most of the time can't be proved one way or the other and never go to court or get settled in lawsuits. What good candidates have the armor, the courage, the ego or reputation to be willing to put themselves in that bullring? What does that leave us with? And now, it's all coming back on you.

Republicans - you've cemented in place a new NORM. Anything goes. If you have a majority, you can steal a Supreme Court nomination. You can push funds towards supporting and investigating baseless conspiracy theories. You get to redefine facts. You can destroy the reputations of public servants in the name of protecting your president. A faustian bargain indeed when you consider the traditional values of the party you have jettisoned in order to get power: fiscal conservatism, family values, morals.

The Democrats shot themselves in the foot with this one. The Republicans sold their souls.

I genuinely like Biden - as a person. I thought, and still think he's a fundamentally decent guy. Until he became a candidate none of this came up. But the accusations of pedophilia with no evidence hit well below the belt of being disgusting and it's shameless of to spread those kind of rumors about any man unless you have damn good evidence. Inappropriate touching? or comments? I can believe that. Intent behind them? Different people will say different things. Assault/rape? Less believable given the serious inconsistencies in Reade's account, no history in Biden's life, and no record of complaints. So what exactly is going on here? Well, in one way - Biden can thank his own party.

So what's your Faustian Bargain? Mine's easy. I'll vote for Biden if he is the candidate. I am not a Democrat and I am not a Republican, and I will not vote 3rd party. Why? Because the truth is - it will be a throw away vote and the price is too high to do that. Because in my view Trump is the most dangerous and incompetent president we've ever had. He is not only destroying our country, but our institutions. He is corrupting everything he touches and spreads lies every time he opens his mouth. Hyperbole? Maybe. But there is a basis of fact there.

Republicans: you have shown us you are willing to vote in someone with a record of allegations of harassment, rape, assault and it's ok. I will assume you fine with that in Biden and I will wait for you to defend him with your normal exclamations of "witch hunt" and "innocent until proven guilty" right?

Democrats: you have shown us "all women must be believed" regardless of evidence. I assume you will stand your ground here right? After you went after Kavanaugh publicly, rather than examine the allegations privately first?

I'm glad that Biden has called for personnel records to be released - if there was a formal complaint, there will be a record of it. I know how these things work.

It won't end there though. There will be a conspiracy theory if it isn't found. Wanna bet?

So, I've made my Faustian Bargain. What's yours?

Coyote how dare you bring logic into politics. Keep doing it though! Both parties have thier faults and until we restore logic in the selection process we will have a real hard time telling just how shity what they are offering is.!

Unfortunately I am seeing a spiral to the bottom here and in part, because we Americans either don't care much about facts and truth, or can't tell the difference between facts and lies, or....we are too damn set in our hundreds of internet echo chambers which wen haven't stepped out of since we joined. It's a dangerous ignorance.

I do not think we care any more I was a democrat that served at President ronald reagans pleasure. It seemed as though things were diferent then. I did not like the K cars but I liked the respect for my neighbors and how both sides of the isle worked together to acomlpish things. We tore down a wall. We fucked up on the drug war but thats life. You take the good with the bad. The point is we worked togehter and we could beleive what people had to say for the most part.

I could not stand Reagan. He was the beginning of this shit. And you did not just fuck up on the drug war, you infected our community with crack and we are still dealing with that damage.

ya, I did not know that at the time. My job was the wall. I was against the drug war and stated so and brought up prohibition. I was also against trickle down economics. The difference betweeen now and today is that those people back then were just doing the best they could and acting with what they thought the best interests were. Were we wrong on some stuff , hell yes. But we acted on our values and not just the party line. Guess what we were all human, we did what we thought was best and both sides got to try some of thier own stuff. We did not have a crystle ball any more than any one today. The other difference is we owned our mistakes. I take part of the blame, I was there. You do not see politicians doing that today. What would you have had me do? Say no I am not working for a republican? Easier to make change fro the inside than the out.

Fair enough. You are right though about how things were handled. And certainly Reagan was not denying testimonies to the democrats in congress while allowing republicans in the senate to get the testimony. The federal government was better and we started to see the change in 1994 thanks to Gingrich.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

the lesser of two 'evils'?


and if neither is the lesser?


We're at the bottom of the barrel.


next we'll be nominating the slugs in the wet dirt under the barrel.

We flat ned more than two parties. Life is more complicated than this or that. We all know what needs to happen the problem is how do we make it happen. You vote out side of the two parties and nine times out of ten you throw your vote away. I dont know how to fix it. Sure as hell wish we could.

No, we don’t.

There’s no evidence that countries with ‘multi-party’ systems function any better than a two-party system.

In fact, the evidence suggests otherwise – Italy and Israel being two such examples.

The people alone are responsible for the bad government they get, regardless the number of parties.

And Trump is the epitome of bad government.

 

[evenflow1969]

Faustian bargain, a pact whereby a person trades something of supreme moral or spiritual importance, such as personal values or the soul, for some worldly or material benefit, such as knowledge, power, or riches.

Is that politics today?

First - a big shout out and thanks to Democrats for setting up impossible standards and today's standard of guilty until proven innocent with your "all women must be believed" and the weaponizing of sexual assault in a last ditch attempt to stop a Supreme Court nomination. You've shown us it's ok to smear a decent man publicly, if that is what it takes. That wasn't the way to do it and you've now set something in play the you can't stop.

Second - a big shout out and thanks to the Republicans who are willing to do anything and elect anything to office in order to preserve power. You have shown us it's ok for to elect a man with multiple lawsuits and allegations of sexual harassment, assault, and rape. You have shown us that lying, promoting senseless conspiracy theories, defending the indefensible and destroying the reputations of good public servants and our institutions of democracy to preserve a thin skinned idiot is worth any price.

Democrats - you've cemented in place, a trend. The result of that trend is no good decent man (and this applies more to men then women, though Hilary was subject to some of these types of attacks) - will run for office because all it takes is ALLEGATIONS - and the automatic presumption of guilt in situations that most of the time can't be proved one way or the other and never go to court or get settled in lawsuits. What good candidates have the armor, the courage, the ego or reputation to be willing to put themselves in that bullring? What does that leave us with? And now, it's all coming back on you.

Republicans - you've cemented in place a new NORM. Anything goes. If you have a majority, you can steal a Supreme Court nomination. You can push funds towards supporting and investigating baseless conspiracy theories. You get to redefine facts. You can destroy the reputations of public servants in the name of protecting your president. A faustian bargain indeed when you consider the traditional values of the party you have jettisoned in order to get power: fiscal conservatism, family values, morals.

The Democrats shot themselves in the foot with this one. The Republicans sold their souls.

I genuinely like Biden - as a person. I thought, and still think he's a fundamentally decent guy. Until he became a candidate none of this came up. But the accusations of pedophilia with no evidence hit well below the belt of being disgusting and it's shameless of to spread those kind of rumors about any man unless you have damn good evidence. Inappropriate touching? or comments? I can believe that. Intent behind them? Different people will say different things. Assault/rape? Less believable given the serious inconsistencies in Reade's account, no history in Biden's life, and no record of complaints. So what exactly is going on here? Well, in one way - Biden can thank his own party.

So what's your Faustian Bargain? Mine's easy. I'll vote for Biden if he is the candidate. I am not a Democrat and I am not a Republican, and I will not vote 3rd party. Why? Because the truth is - it will be a throw away vote and the price is too high to do that. Because in my view Trump is the most dangerous and incompetent president we've ever had. He is not only destroying our country, but our institutions. He is corrupting everything he touches and spreads lies every time he opens his mouth. Hyperbole? Maybe. But there is a basis of fact there.

Republicans: you have shown us you are willing to vote in someone with a record of allegations of harassment, rape, assault and it's ok. I will assume you fine with that in Biden and I will wait for you to defend him with your normal exclamations of "witch hunt" and "innocent until proven guilty" right?

Democrats: you have shown us "all women must be believed" regardless of evidence. I assume you will stand your ground here right? After you went after Kavanaugh publicly, rather than examine the allegations privately first?

I'm glad that Biden has called for personnel records to be released - if there was a formal complaint, there will be a record of it. I know how these things work.

It won't end there though. There will be a conspiracy theory if it isn't found. Wanna bet?

So, I've made my Faustian Bargain. What's yours?

Coyote how dare you bring logic into politics. Keep doing it though! Both parties have thier faults and until we restore logic in the selection process we will have a real hard time telling just how shity what they are offering is.!

Unfortunately I am seeing a spiral to the bottom here and in part, because we Americans either don't care much about facts and truth, or can't tell the difference between facts and lies, or....we are too damn set in our hundreds of internet echo chambers which wen haven't stepped out of since we joined. It's a dangerous ignorance.

I do not think we care any more I was a democrat that served at President ronald reagans pleasure. It seemed as though things were diferent then. I did not like the K cars but I liked the respect for my neighbors and how both sides of the isle worked together to acomlpish things. We tore down a wall. We fucked up on the drug war but thats life. You take the good with the bad. The point is we worked togehter and we could beleive what people had to say for the most part.

I could not stand Reagan. He was the beginning of this shit. And you did not just fuck up on the drug war, you infected our community with crack and we are still dealing with that damage.

ya, I did not know that at the time. My job was the wall. I was against the drug war and stated so and brought up prohibition. I was also against trickle down economics. The difference betweeen now and today is that those people back then were just doing the best they could and acting with what they thought the best interests were. Were we wrong on some stuff , hell yes. But we acted on our values and not just the party line. Guess what we were all human, we did what we thought was best and both sides got to try some of thier own stuff. We did not have a crystle ball any more than any one today. The other difference is we owned our mistakes. I take part of the blame, I was there. You do not see politicians doing that today. What would you have had me do? Say no I am not working for a republican? Easier to make change fro the inside than the out.

Fair enough. You are right though about how things were handled. And certainly Reagan was not denying testimonies to the democrats in congress while allowing republicans in the senate to get the testimony. The federal government was better and we started to see the change in 1994 thanks to Gingrich.

It was a better time in alot of ways. Not perfect but we tried hard.

 

[IM2]

So, I've made my Faustian Bargain. What's yours?

No Faustian Bargain here, and neither did you enter into one.

Let me roll up that whole thing sideways: It's the holier-than-thou Pharisees of the "I will not vote for the lesser evil" variety who really are the problem here - certainly not you, and not your "bargain". Even if Biden had that one serious lapse with Reade, the comparison with the serial predator on the other side doesn't even compute. Making of that the usual both-sides bullshit, another instance of "I am too good, too perfect, to vote for a mere human with warts" is a serious failure of responsibility - a Pontius Pilatian bargain, or a Trumpian one, if you will: "I take no responsibility at all!" With humans, the "lesser of two evils" it is, and forever will be. The fantasy world of "I found the ideal, finally, at long last, worthy of casting my vote for him / her" is childish. No one is on the side of the angels, and no one gets to vote for one.

That said, voting isn't just a choice between personalities, it's primarily a choice between two or more sets of policies - the usual personality cults on all sides, egged on by entertainment channels posing as serious media, notwithstanding.

Finally, the GOP and anyone voting for that party may not have lost their soul. I can't really determine what that's supposed to mean. They have, however, due to that prion disease of the brain, lost their mind. By now, they recognize no fact, nor any aspect of the Common Welfare the Constitution mandates as the center of the Union. Letting any of them anywhere near the levers of power is patently irresponsible, like entering a car driven by a horribly drunk driver.

Amen.

 

[evenflow1969]

the lesser of two 'evils'?


and if neither is the lesser?


We're at the bottom of the barrel.


next we'll be nominating the slugs in the wet dirt under the barrel.

We flat ned more than two parties. Life is more complicated than this or that. We all know what needs to happen the problem is how do we make it happen. You vote out side of the two parties and nine times out of ten you throw your vote away. I dont know how to fix it. Sure as hell wish we could.

No, we don’t.

There’s no evidence that countries with ‘multi-party’ systems function any better than a two-party system.

In fact, the evidence suggests otherwise – Italy and Israel being two such examples.

The people alone are responsible for the bad government they get, regardless the number of parties.

And Trump is the epitome of bad government.

I will agree on the trump thing but will respectfully disagree on the multi party system. things are not black and white and there is no way a two party system best respresents you. I do not fully agree with either party and would like more choices.

 

[IM2]

the lesser of two 'evils'?


and if neither is the lesser?


We're at the bottom of the barrel.


next we'll be nominating the slugs in the wet dirt under the barrel.

We flat ned more than two parties. Life is more complicated than this or that. We all know what needs to happen the problem is how do we make it happen. You vote out side of the two parties and nine times out of ten you throw your vote away. I dont know how to fix it. Sure as hell wish we could.

No, we don’t.

There’s no evidence that countries with ‘multi-party’ systems function any better than a two-party system.

In fact, the evidence suggests otherwise – Italy and Israel being two such examples.

The people alone are responsible for the bad government they get, regardless the number of parties.

And Trump is the epitome of bad government.

That's right. We are who we elect.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

So, I've made my Faustian Bargain. What's yours?

No Faustian Bargain here, and neither did you enter into one.

Let me roll up that whole thing sideways: It's the holier-than-thou Pharisees of the "I will not vote for the lesser evil" variety who really are the problem here - certainly not you, and not your "bargain". Even if Biden had that one serious lapse with Reade, the comparison with the serial predator on the other side doesn't even compute. Making of that the usual both-sides bullshit, another instance of "I am too good, too perfect, to vote for a mere human with warts" is a serious failure of responsibility - a Pontius Pilatian bargain, or a Trumpian one, if you will: "I take no responsibility at all!" With humans, the "lesser of two evils" it is, and forever will be. The fantasy world of "I found the ideal, finally, at long last, worthy of casting my vote for him / her" is childish. No one is on the side of the angels, and no one gets to vote for one.

That said, voting isn't just a choice between personalities, it's primarily a choice between two or more sets of policies - the usual personality cults on all sides, egged on by entertainment channels posing as serious media, notwithstanding.

Finally, the GOP and anyone voting for that party may not have lost their soul. I can't really determine what that's supposed to mean. They have, however, due to that prion disease of the brain, lost their mind. By now, they recognize no fact, nor any aspect of the Common Welfare the Constitution mandates as the center of the Union. Letting any of them anywhere near the levers of power is patently irresponsible, like entering a car driven by a horribly drunk driver.

True.

Republicans have demonstrated an inability to provide sound, responsible governance – or their contempt for sound responsible governance.

 

[IM2]

Faustian bargain, a pact whereby a person trades something of supreme moral or spiritual importance, such as personal values or the soul, for some worldly or material benefit, such as knowledge, power, or riches.

Is that politics today?

First - a big shout out and thanks to Democrats for setting up impossible standards and today's standard of guilty until proven innocent with your "all women must be believed" and the weaponizing of sexual assault in a last ditch attempt to stop a Supreme Court nomination. You've shown us it's ok to smear a decent man publicly, if that is what it takes. That wasn't the way to do it and you've now set something in play the you can't stop.

Second - a big shout out and thanks to the Republicans who are willing to do anything and elect anything to office in order to preserve power. You have shown us it's ok for to elect a man with multiple lawsuits and allegations of sexual harassment, assault, and rape. You have shown us that lying, promoting senseless conspiracy theories, defending the indefensible and destroying the reputations of good public servants and our institutions of democracy to preserve a thin skinned idiot is worth any price.

Democrats - you've cemented in place, a trend. The result of that trend is no good decent man (and this applies more to men then women, though Hilary was subject to some of these types of attacks) - will run for office because all it takes is ALLEGATIONS - and the automatic presumption of guilt in situations that most of the time can't be proved one way or the other and never go to court or get settled in lawsuits. What good candidates have the armor, the courage, the ego or reputation to be willing to put themselves in that bullring? What does that leave us with? And now, it's all coming back on you.

Republicans - you've cemented in place a new NORM. Anything goes. If you have a majority, you can steal a Supreme Court nomination. You can push funds towards supporting and investigating baseless conspiracy theories. You get to redefine facts. You can destroy the reputations of public servants in the name of protecting your president. A faustian bargain indeed when you consider the traditional values of the party you have jettisoned in order to get power: fiscal conservatism, family values, morals.

The Democrats shot themselves in the foot with this one. The Republicans sold their souls.

I genuinely like Biden - as a person. I thought, and still think he's a fundamentally decent guy. Until he became a candidate none of this came up. But the accusations of pedophilia with no evidence hit well below the belt of being disgusting and it's shameless of to spread those kind of rumors about any man unless you have damn good evidence. Inappropriate touching? or comments? I can believe that. Intent behind them? Different people will say different things. Assault/rape? Less believable given the serious inconsistencies in Reade's account, no history in Biden's life, and no record of complaints. So what exactly is going on here? Well, in one way - Biden can thank his own party.

So what's your Faustian Bargain? Mine's easy. I'll vote for Biden if he is the candidate. I am not a Democrat and I am not a Republican, and I will not vote 3rd party. Why? Because the truth is - it will be a throw away vote and the price is too high to do that. Because in my view Trump is the most dangerous and incompetent president we've ever had. He is not only destroying our country, but our institutions. He is corrupting everything he touches and spreads lies every time he opens his mouth. Hyperbole? Maybe. But there is a basis of fact there.

Republicans: you have shown us you are willing to vote in someone with a record of allegations of harassment, rape, assault and it's ok. I will assume you fine with that in Biden and I will wait for you to defend him with your normal exclamations of "witch hunt" and "innocent until proven guilty" right?

Democrats: you have shown us "all women must be believed" regardless of evidence. I assume you will stand your ground here right? After you went after Kavanaugh publicly, rather than examine the allegations privately first?

I'm glad that Biden has called for personnel records to be released - if there was a formal complaint, there will be a record of it. I know how these things work.

It won't end there though. There will be a conspiracy theory if it isn't found. Wanna bet?

So, I've made my Faustian Bargain. What's yours?

I was waiting to see who Biden picked for his veep, with a third party as the alternative. But this behavior by the Dems over the Biden allegations is probably too much.

So, living in a purple state, I guess my Faustian Bargain is that I'll probably have to not vote Democrat, which would have been the best way to vote against Trump. I can't justify supporting this party (for a few reasons now). Just me.

You weren't going to vote democrat anyway. Now if you cannot see how trump is a serious danger to our nation and that we cannot afford to waste votes because of some warped belief in the bad of both sides when do do not see anything even close to what republicans have done for the last 40 years from democrats, then there is no help for you.

 

[Coyote]

Faustian bargain, a pact whereby a person trades something of supreme moral or spiritual importance, such as personal values or the soul, for some worldly or material benefit, such as knowledge, power, or riches.

Is that politics today?

First - a big shout out and thanks to Democrats for setting up impossible standards and today's standard of guilty until proven innocent with your "all women must be believed" and the weaponizing of sexual assault in a last ditch attempt to stop a Supreme Court nomination. You've shown us it's ok to smear a decent man publicly, if that is what it takes. That wasn't the way to do it and you've now set something in play the you can't stop.

Second - a big shout out and thanks to the Republicans who are willing to do anything and elect anything to office in order to preserve power. You have shown us it's ok for to elect a man with multiple lawsuits and allegations of sexual harassment, assault, and rape. You have shown us that lying, promoting senseless conspiracy theories, defending the indefensible and destroying the reputations of good public servants and our institutions of democracy to preserve a thin skinned idiot is worth any price.

Democrats - you've cemented in place, a trend. The result of that trend is no good decent man (and this applies more to men then women, though Hilary was subject to some of these types of attacks) - will run for office because all it takes is ALLEGATIONS - and the automatic presumption of guilt in situations that most of the time can't be proved one way or the other and never go to court or get settled in lawsuits. What good candidates have the armor, the courage, the ego or reputation to be willing to put themselves in that bullring? What does that leave us with? And now, it's all coming back on you.

Republicans - you've cemented in place a new NORM. Anything goes. If you have a majority, you can steal a Supreme Court nomination. You can push funds towards supporting and investigating baseless conspiracy theories. You get to redefine facts. You can destroy the reputations of public servants in the name of protecting your president. A faustian bargain indeed when you consider the traditional values of the party you have jettisoned in order to get power: fiscal conservatism, family values, morals.

The Democrats shot themselves in the foot with this one. The Republicans sold their souls.

I genuinely like Biden - as a person. I thought, and still think he's a fundamentally decent guy. Until he became a candidate none of this came up. But the accusations of pedophilia with no evidence hit well below the belt of being disgusting and it's shameless of to spread those kind of rumors about any man unless you have damn good evidence. Inappropriate touching? or comments? I can believe that. Intent behind them? Different people will say different things. Assault/rape? Less believable given the serious inconsistencies in Reade's account, no history in Biden's life, and no record of complaints. So what exactly is going on here? Well, in one way - Biden can thank his own party.

So what's your Faustian Bargain? Mine's easy. I'll vote for Biden if he is the candidate. I am not a Democrat and I am not a Republican, and I will not vote 3rd party. Why? Because the truth is - it will be a throw away vote and the price is too high to do that. Because in my view Trump is the most dangerous and incompetent president we've ever had. He is not only destroying our country, but our institutions. He is corrupting everything he touches and spreads lies every time he opens his mouth. Hyperbole? Maybe. But there is a basis of fact there.

Republicans: you have shown us you are willing to vote in someone with a record of allegations of harassment, rape, assault and it's ok. I will assume you fine with that in Biden and I will wait for you to defend him with your normal exclamations of "witch hunt" and "innocent until proven guilty" right?

Democrats: you have shown us "all women must be believed" regardless of evidence. I assume you will stand your ground here right? After you went after Kavanaugh publicly, rather than examine the allegations privately first?

I'm glad that Biden has called for personnel records to be released - if there was a formal complaint, there will be a record of it. I know how these things work.

It won't end there though. There will be a conspiracy theory if it isn't found. Wanna bet?

So, I've made my Faustian Bargain. What's yours?

I was waiting to see who Biden picked for his veep, with a third party as the alternative. But this behavior by the Dems over the Biden allegations is probably too much.

So, living in a purple state, I guess my Faustian Bargain is that I'll probably have to not vote Democrat, which would have been the best way to vote against Trump. I can't justify supporting this. Just me.

Would you vote 3rd party?

IMO, allegations are that until proven, either in the courts or law enforcement or even, for voting purposes an established history.

But we have moved dangerously away from the standard of “innocent until proven guilty” when it comes to two reputation and life destroying allegations: rape and pedo. I do not like Kavanaugh, but I sympathize with his anger over what the Dems did. Likewise, now, what is going on with Biden and the hypocrisies involved.

If you make an allegation, file a report and put yourself on the line supporting it. If you wait 27 years, your credibility might be thin. If you accept a simple denial as adequate for an R then why not for a D?

I see way to many inconsistencies in Reade’s account that bother me. She filed a report (but did not name Biden)...so let’s see what comes out of that. But let’s say police verify it. I would vote Biden, for the reasons I listed. And that probably is similar to the way some felt voting for Trump over Hilary (though I had no big issue with her).

Voting for the lesser of two evils is still not a good place to be.

 

[Mac1958]

Faustian bargain, a pact whereby a person trades something of supreme moral or spiritual importance, such as personal values or the soul, for some worldly or material benefit, such as knowledge, power, or riches.

Is that politics today?

First - a big shout out and thanks to Democrats for setting up impossible standards and today's standard of guilty until proven innocent with your "all women must be believed" and the weaponizing of sexual assault in a last ditch attempt to stop a Supreme Court nomination. You've shown us it's ok to smear a decent man publicly, if that is what it takes. That wasn't the way to do it and you've now set something in play the you can't stop.

Second - a big shout out and thanks to the Republicans who are willing to do anything and elect anything to office in order to preserve power. You have shown us it's ok for to elect a man with multiple lawsuits and allegations of sexual harassment, assault, and rape. You have shown us that lying, promoting senseless conspiracy theories, defending the indefensible and destroying the reputations of good public servants and our institutions of democracy to preserve a thin skinned idiot is worth any price.

Democrats - you've cemented in place, a trend. The result of that trend is no good decent man (and this applies more to men then women, though Hilary was subject to some of these types of attacks) - will run for office because all it takes is ALLEGATIONS - and the automatic presumption of guilt in situations that most of the time can't be proved one way or the other and never go to court or get settled in lawsuits. What good candidates have the armor, the courage, the ego or reputation to be willing to put themselves in that bullring? What does that leave us with? And now, it's all coming back on you.

Republicans - you've cemented in place a new NORM. Anything goes. If you have a majority, you can steal a Supreme Court nomination. You can push funds towards supporting and investigating baseless conspiracy theories. You get to redefine facts. You can destroy the reputations of public servants in the name of protecting your president. A faustian bargain indeed when you consider the traditional values of the party you have jettisoned in order to get power: fiscal conservatism, family values, morals.

The Democrats shot themselves in the foot with this one. The Republicans sold their souls.

I genuinely like Biden - as a person. I thought, and still think he's a fundamentally decent guy. Until he became a candidate none of this came up. But the accusations of pedophilia with no evidence hit well below the belt of being disgusting and it's shameless of to spread those kind of rumors about any man unless you have damn good evidence. Inappropriate touching? or comments? I can believe that. Intent behind them? Different people will say different things. Assault/rape? Less believable given the serious inconsistencies in Reade's account, no history in Biden's life, and no record of complaints. So what exactly is going on here? Well, in one way - Biden can thank his own party.

So what's your Faustian Bargain? Mine's easy. I'll vote for Biden if he is the candidate. I am not a Democrat and I am not a Republican, and I will not vote 3rd party. Why? Because the truth is - it will be a throw away vote and the price is too high to do that. Because in my view Trump is the most dangerous and incompetent president we've ever had. He is not only destroying our country, but our institutions. He is corrupting everything he touches and spreads lies every time he opens his mouth. Hyperbole? Maybe. But there is a basis of fact there.

Republicans: you have shown us you are willing to vote in someone with a record of allegations of harassment, rape, assault and it's ok. I will assume you fine with that in Biden and I will wait for you to defend him with your normal exclamations of "witch hunt" and "innocent until proven guilty" right?

Democrats: you have shown us "all women must be believed" regardless of evidence. I assume you will stand your ground here right? After you went after Kavanaugh publicly, rather than examine the allegations privately first?

I'm glad that Biden has called for personnel records to be released - if there was a formal complaint, there will be a record of it. I know how these things work.

It won't end there though. There will be a conspiracy theory if it isn't found. Wanna bet?

So, I've made my Faustian Bargain. What's yours?

I was waiting to see who Biden picked for his veep, with a third party as the alternative. But this behavior by the Dems over the Biden allegations is probably too much.

So, living in a purple state, I guess my Faustian Bargain is that I'll probably have to not vote Democrat, which would have been the best way to vote against Trump. I can't justify supporting this party (for a few reasons now). Just me.

You weren't going to vote democrat anyway. Now if you cannot see how trump is a serious danger to our nation and that we cannot afford to waste votes because of some warped belief in the bad of both sides when do do not see anything even close to what republicans have done for the last 40 years from democrats, then there is no help for you.

You're going to believe what you want to believe, regardless of what I actually say, just like a Trumpster.

 

[Mac1958]

Faustian bargain, a pact whereby a person trades something of supreme moral or spiritual importance, such as personal values or the soul, for some worldly or material benefit, such as knowledge, power, or riches.

Is that politics today?

First - a big shout out and thanks to Democrats for setting up impossible standards and today's standard of guilty until proven innocent with your "all women must be believed" and the weaponizing of sexual assault in a last ditch attempt to stop a Supreme Court nomination. You've shown us it's ok to smear a decent man publicly, if that is what it takes. That wasn't the way to do it and you've now set something in play the you can't stop.

Second - a big shout out and thanks to the Republicans who are willing to do anything and elect anything to office in order to preserve power. You have shown us it's ok for to elect a man with multiple lawsuits and allegations of sexual harassment, assault, and rape. You have shown us that lying, promoting senseless conspiracy theories, defending the indefensible and destroying the reputations of good public servants and our institutions of democracy to preserve a thin skinned idiot is worth any price.

Democrats - you've cemented in place, a trend. The result of that trend is no good decent man (and this applies more to men then women, though Hilary was subject to some of these types of attacks) - will run for office because all it takes is ALLEGATIONS - and the automatic presumption of guilt in situations that most of the time can't be proved one way or the other and never go to court or get settled in lawsuits. What good candidates have the armor, the courage, the ego or reputation to be willing to put themselves in that bullring? What does that leave us with? And now, it's all coming back on you.

Republicans - you've cemented in place a new NORM. Anything goes. If you have a majority, you can steal a Supreme Court nomination. You can push funds towards supporting and investigating baseless conspiracy theories. You get to redefine facts. You can destroy the reputations of public servants in the name of protecting your president. A faustian bargain indeed when you consider the traditional values of the party you have jettisoned in order to get power: fiscal conservatism, family values, morals.

The Democrats shot themselves in the foot with this one. The Republicans sold their souls.

I genuinely like Biden - as a person. I thought, and still think he's a fundamentally decent guy. Until he became a candidate none of this came up. But the accusations of pedophilia with no evidence hit well below the belt of being disgusting and it's shameless of to spread those kind of rumors about any man unless you have damn good evidence. Inappropriate touching? or comments? I can believe that. Intent behind them? Different people will say different things. Assault/rape? Less believable given the serious inconsistencies in Reade's account, no history in Biden's life, and no record of complaints. So what exactly is going on here? Well, in one way - Biden can thank his own party.

So what's your Faustian Bargain? Mine's easy. I'll vote for Biden if he is the candidate. I am not a Democrat and I am not a Republican, and I will not vote 3rd party. Why? Because the truth is - it will be a throw away vote and the price is too high to do that. Because in my view Trump is the most dangerous and incompetent president we've ever had. He is not only destroying our country, but our institutions. He is corrupting everything he touches and spreads lies every time he opens his mouth. Hyperbole? Maybe. But there is a basis of fact there.

Republicans: you have shown us you are willing to vote in someone with a record of allegations of harassment, rape, assault and it's ok. I will assume you fine with that in Biden and I will wait for you to defend him with your normal exclamations of "witch hunt" and "innocent until proven guilty" right?

Democrats: you have shown us "all women must be believed" regardless of evidence. I assume you will stand your ground here right? After you went after Kavanaugh publicly, rather than examine the allegations privately first?

I'm glad that Biden has called for personnel records to be released - if there was a formal complaint, there will be a record of it. I know how these things work.

It won't end there though. There will be a conspiracy theory if it isn't found. Wanna bet?

So, I've made my Faustian Bargain. What's yours?

I was waiting to see who Biden picked for his veep, with a third party as the alternative. But this behavior by the Dems over the Biden allegations is probably too much.

So, living in a purple state, I guess my Faustian Bargain is that I'll probably have to not vote Democrat, which would have been the best way to vote against Trump. I can't justify supporting this. Just me.

Would you vote 3rd party?

IMO, allegations are that until proven, either in the courts or law enforcement or even, for voting purposes an established history.

But we have moved dangerously away from the standard of “innocent until proven guilty” when it comes to two reputation and life destroying allegations: rape and pedo. I do not like Kavanaugh, but I sympathize with his anger over what the Dems did. Likewise, now, what is going on with Biden and the hypocrisies involved.

If you make an allegation, file a report and put yourself on the line supporting it. If you wait 27 years, your credibility might be thin. If you accept a simple denial as adequate for an R then why not for a D?

I see way to many inconsistencies in Reade’s account that bother me. She filed a report (but did not name Biden)...so let’s see what comes out of that. But let’s say police verify it. I would vote Biden, for the reasons I listed. And that probably is similar to the way some felt voting for Trump over Hilary (though I had no big issue with her).

Voting for the lesser of two evils is still not a good place to be.

The best way I can explain it, at this point, is to ask you to imagine walking into the voting booth and voting for Trump.

Notice that gnarly feeling in the pit of your stomach? I get that same feeling thinking about voting for either.

I agree with the Dems on far more of the issues, and I think Trumpism is ugly. But goddamn it, I've gotta draw a line somewhere. It was bad enough voting for Hillary.

 

[Oldestyle]

Faustian bargain, a pact whereby a person trades something of supreme moral or spiritual importance, such as personal values or the soul, for some worldly or material benefit, such as knowledge, power, or riches.

Is that politics today?

First - a big shout out and thanks to Democrats for setting up impossible standards and today's standard of guilty until proven innocent with your "all women must be believed" and the weaponizing of sexual assault in a last ditch attempt to stop a Supreme Court nomination. You've shown us it's ok to smear a decent man publicly, if that is what it takes. That wasn't the way to do it and you've now set something in play the you can't stop.

Second - a big shout out and thanks to the Republicans who are willing to do anything and elect anything to office in order to preserve power. You have shown us it's ok for to elect a man with multiple lawsuits and allegations of sexual harassment, assault, and rape. You have shown us that lying, promoting senseless conspiracy theories, defending the indefensible and destroying the reputations of good public servants and our institutions of democracy to preserve a thin skinned idiot is worth any price.

Democrats - you've cemented in place, a trend. The result of that trend is no good decent man (and this applies more to men then women, though Hilary was subject to some of these types of attacks) - will run for office because all it takes is ALLEGATIONS - and the automatic presumption of guilt in situations that most of the time can't be proved one way or the other and never go to court or get settled in lawsuits. What good candidates have the armor, the courage, the ego or reputation to be willing to put themselves in that bullring? What does that leave us with? And now, it's all coming back on you.

Republicans - you've cemented in place a new NORM. Anything goes. If you have a majority, you can steal a Supreme Court nomination. You can push funds towards supporting and investigating baseless conspiracy theories. You get to redefine facts. You can destroy the reputations of public servants in the name of protecting your president. A faustian bargain indeed when you consider the traditional values of the party you have jettisoned in order to get power: fiscal conservatism, family values, morals.

The Democrats shot themselves in the foot with this one. The Republicans sold their souls.

I genuinely like Biden - as a person. I thought, and still think he's a fundamentally decent guy. Until he became a candidate none of this came up. But the accusations of pedophilia with no evidence hit well below the belt of being disgusting and it's shameless of to spread those kind of rumors about any man unless you have damn good evidence. Inappropriate touching? or comments? I can believe that. Intent behind them? Different people will say different things. Assault/rape? Less believable given the serious inconsistencies in Reade's account, no history in Biden's life, and no record of complaints. So what exactly is going on here? Well, in one way - Biden can thank his own party.

So what's your Faustian Bargain? Mine's easy. I'll vote for Biden if he is the candidate. I am not a Democrat and I am not a Republican, and I will not vote 3rd party. Why? Because the truth is - it will be a throw away vote and the price is too high to do that. Because in my view Trump is the most dangerous and incompetent president we've ever had. He is not only destroying our country, but our institutions. He is corrupting everything he touches and spreads lies every time he opens his mouth. Hyperbole? Maybe. But there is a basis of fact there.

Republicans: you have shown us you are willing to vote in someone with a record of allegations of harassment, rape, assault and it's ok. I will assume you fine with that in Biden and I will wait for you to defend him with your normal exclamations of "witch hunt" and "innocent until proven guilty" right?

Democrats: you have shown us "all women must be believed" regardless of evidence. I assume you will stand your ground here right? After you went after Kavanaugh publicly, rather than examine the allegations privately first?

I'm glad that Biden has called for personnel records to be released - if there was a formal complaint, there will be a record of it. I know how these things work.

It won't end there though. There will be a conspiracy theory if it isn't found. Wanna bet?

So, I've made my Faustian Bargain. What's yours?

A record of allegations? How many of those allegations have ever been proven to be true? I hate to point out the painfully obvious, Coyote but "allegations" have been leveled against Donald Trump from the moment he won the Republican nomination and to be quite frank...most of those "allegations" were total horseshit! The NUMBER of allegations has more to do with the depths that liberals will go in order to cancel an election they thought they had in the bag than Donald Trump's fitness for office!

What public servant's reputation's have been unjustly destroyed by Republicans?

 

[Oddball]

Faustian bargain, a pact whereby a person trades something of supreme moral or spiritual importance, such as personal values or the soul, for some worldly or material benefit, such as knowledge, power, or riches.

...

Second - a big shout out and thanks to the Republicans who are willing to do anything and elect anything to office in order to preserve power. You have shown us it's ok for to elect a man with multiple lawsuits and allegations of sexual harassment, assault, and rape. You have shown us that lying, promoting senseless conspiracy theories, defending the indefensible and destroying the reputations of good public servants and our institutions of democracy to preserve a thin skinned idiot is worth any price.

See: Bill Clinton.

Republicans - you've cemented in place a new NORM. Anything goes. If you have a majority, you can steal a Supreme Court nomination. You can push funds towards supporting and investigating baseless conspiracy theories. You get to redefine facts. You can destroy the reputations of public servants in the name of protecting your president. A faustian bargain indeed when you consider the traditional values of the party you have jettisoned in order to get power: fiscal conservatism, family values, morals.

Conspiracy theories you say?....Like the RUSSIA! hoax?

I can remember way back to the 1990s, where you libbies would have shit yourselves if the FBI/CIA/NSA/IRS had been doing everything they've clearly been engaging in for the last 20 years, but since the target is the evil Orange Man, not a fucking peep.

Republicans: you have shown us you are willing to vote in someone with a record of allegations of harassment, rape, assault and it's ok. I will assume you fine with that in Biden and I will wait for you to defend him with your normal exclamations of "witch hunt" and "innocent until proven guilty" right?

See: Bill Clinton.

Prolly best you get that plank pout of your own eye first.


2a. Freudian projection

The following is a collection of definitions of projection from orthodox psychology texts. In this system the distinct mechanism of projecting own unconscious or undesirable characteristics onto another is called Freudian Projection.

• “A defense mechanism in which the individual attributes to other people impulses and traits that he himself has but cannot accept. It is especially likely to occur when the person lacks insight into his own impulses and traits.”
• “The externalisation of internal unconscious wishes, desires or emotions on to other people. So, for example, someone who feels subconsciously that they have a powerful latent homosexual drive may not acknowledge this consciously, but it may show in their readiness to suspect others of being homosexual.”
• “Attributing one’s own undesirable traits to other people or agencies, e.g., an aggressive man accuses other people of being hostile.”
• “The individual perceives in others the motive he denies having himself. Thus the cheat is sure that everyone else is dishonest. The would-be adulterer accuses his wife of infidelity.”
• “People attribute their own undesirable traits onto others. An individual who unconsciously recognises his or her aggressive tendencies may then see other people acting in an excessively aggressive way.”
• “Projection is the opposite defence mechanism to identification. We project our own unpleasant feelings onto someone else and blame them for having thoughts that we really have.”

Self-Awareness | SkillsYouNeed

Self-awareness is a key component of emotional intelligence (EI), encompassing emotional awareness, accurate self-assessment and self-confidence.

www.skillsyouneed.com

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I don't vote for people. I vote for ideas. My vote goes to the candidate whose administration i feel will most likely do the things i think are best for people now and in the future. I have virtually no control over who the actual name is on the ballot, nor over the fact that one of two people is going to win the presidency every 4 years.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Faustian bargain, a pact whereby a person trades something of supreme moral or spiritual importance, such as personal values or the soul, for some worldly or material benefit, such as knowledge, power, or riches.

Is that politics today?

First - a big shout out and thanks to Democrats for setting up impossible standards and today's standard of guilty until proven innocent with your "all women must be believed" and the weaponizing of sexual assault in a last ditch attempt to stop a Supreme Court nomination. You've shown us it's ok to smear a decent man publicly, if that is what it takes. That wasn't the way to do it and you've now set something in play the you can't stop.

Second - a big shout out and thanks to the Republicans who are willing to do anything and elect anything to office in order to preserve power. You have shown us it's ok for to elect a man with multiple lawsuits and allegations of sexual harassment, assault, and rape. You have shown us that lying, promoting senseless conspiracy theories, defending the indefensible and destroying the reputations of good public servants and our institutions of democracy to preserve a thin skinned idiot is worth any price.

Democrats - you've cemented in place, a trend. The result of that trend is no good decent man (and this applies more to men then women, though Hilary was subject to some of these types of attacks) - will run for office because all it takes is ALLEGATIONS - and the automatic presumption of guilt in situations that most of the time can't be proved one way or the other and never go to court or get settled in lawsuits. What good candidates have the armor, the courage, the ego or reputation to be willing to put themselves in that bullring? What does that leave us with? And now, it's all coming back on you.

Republicans - you've cemented in place a new NORM. Anything goes. If you have a majority, you can steal a Supreme Court nomination. You can push funds towards supporting and investigating baseless conspiracy theories. You get to redefine facts. You can destroy the reputations of public servants in the name of protecting your president. A faustian bargain indeed when you consider the traditional values of the party you have jettisoned in order to get power: fiscal conservatism, family values, morals.

The Democrats shot themselves in the foot with this one. The Republicans sold their souls.

I genuinely like Biden - as a person. I thought, and still think he's a fundamentally decent guy. Until he became a candidate none of this came up. But the accusations of pedophilia with no evidence hit well below the belt of being disgusting and it's shameless of to spread those kind of rumors about any man unless you have damn good evidence. Inappropriate touching? or comments? I can believe that. Intent behind them? Different people will say different things. Assault/rape? Less believable given the serious inconsistencies in Reade's account, no history in Biden's life, and no record of complaints. So what exactly is going on here? Well, in one way - Biden can thank his own party.

So what's your Faustian Bargain? Mine's easy. I'll vote for Biden if he is the candidate. I am not a Democrat and I am not a Republican, and I will not vote 3rd party. Why? Because the truth is - it will be a throw away vote and the price is too high to do that. Because in my view Trump is the most dangerous and incompetent president we've ever had. He is not only destroying our country, but our institutions. He is corrupting everything he touches and spreads lies every time he opens his mouth. Hyperbole? Maybe. But there is a basis of fact there.

Republicans: you have shown us you are willing to vote in someone with a record of allegations of harassment, rape, assault and it's ok. I will assume you fine with that in Biden and I will wait for you to defend him with your normal exclamations of "witch hunt" and "innocent until proven guilty" right?

Democrats: you have shown us "all women must be believed" regardless of evidence. I assume you will stand your ground here right? After you went after Kavanaugh publicly, rather than examine the allegations privately first?

I'm glad that Biden has called for personnel records to be released - if there was a formal complaint, there will be a record of it. I know how these things work.

It won't end there though. There will be a conspiracy theory if it isn't found. Wanna bet?

So, I've made my Faustian Bargain. What's yours?

I was waiting to see who Biden picked for his veep, with a third party as the alternative. But this behavior by the Dems over the Biden allegations is probably too much.

So, living in a purple state, I guess my Faustian Bargain is that I'll probably have to not vote Democrat, which would have been the best way to vote against Trump. I can't justify supporting this. Just me.

Would you vote 3rd party?

IMO, allegations are that until proven, either in the courts or law enforcement or even, for voting purposes an established history.

But we have moved dangerously away from the standard of “innocent until proven guilty” when it comes to two reputation and life destroying allegations: rape and pedo. I do not like Kavanaugh, but I sympathize with his anger over what the Dems did. Likewise, now, what is going on with Biden and the hypocrisies involved.

If you make an allegation, file a report and put yourself on the line supporting it. If you wait 27 years, your credibility might be thin. If you accept a simple denial as adequate for an R then why not for a D?

I see way to many inconsistencies in Reade’s account that bother me. She filed a report (but did not name Biden)...so let’s see what comes out of that. But let’s say police verify it. I would vote Biden, for the reasons I listed. And that probably is similar to the way some felt voting for Trump over Hilary (though I had no big issue with her).

Voting for the lesser of two evils is still not a good place to be.

‘But we have moved dangerously away from the standard of “innocent until proven guilty” when it comes to two reputation and life destroying allegations…’

Actually not.

The doctrine of a presumption of innocence applies solely to the judicial process, not political; with regard to the political process it as never been a ‘standard.’

The veracity of allegations of sexual misconduct in the political process is determined solely by the people when they vote; or in the case of political or judicial appointments, the people’s elected representatives.

The standard, therefore, would be Trump/Kavanaugh, where the former was not disqualified to hold elected office after allegations of sexual misconduct, and the latter was not disqualified to sit on the Supreme Court, also subject to allegations of sexual misconduct.

Pursuant to this standard – established by the voters – Biden is likewise not disqualified to hold public office because of allegations of sexual misconduct.

 

[22lcidw]

Faustian bargain, a pact whereby a person trades something of supreme moral or spiritual importance, such as personal values or the soul, for some worldly or material benefit, such as knowledge, power, or riches.

Is that politics today?

First - a big shout out and thanks to Democrats for setting up impossible standards and today's standard of guilty until proven innocent with your "all women must be believed" and the weaponizing of sexual assault in a last ditch attempt to stop a Supreme Court nomination. You've shown us it's ok to smear a decent man publicly, if that is what it takes. That wasn't the way to do it and you've now set something in play the you can't stop.

Second - a big shout out and thanks to the Republicans who are willing to do anything and elect anything to office in order to preserve power. You have shown us it's ok for to elect a man with multiple lawsuits and allegations of sexual harassment, assault, and rape. You have shown us that lying, promoting senseless conspiracy theories, defending the indefensible and destroying the reputations of good public servants and our institutions of democracy to preserve a thin skinned idiot is worth any price.

Democrats - you've cemented in place, a trend. The result of that trend is no good decent man (and this applies more to men then women, though Hilary was subject to some of these types of attacks) - will run for office because all it takes is ALLEGATIONS - and the automatic presumption of guilt in situations that most of the time can't be proved one way or the other and never go to court or get settled in lawsuits. What good candidates have the armor, the courage, the ego or reputation to be willing to put themselves in that bullring? What does that leave us with? And now, it's all coming back on you.

Republicans - you've cemented in place a new NORM. Anything goes. If you have a majority, you can steal a Supreme Court nomination. You can push funds towards supporting and investigating baseless conspiracy theories. You get to redefine facts. You can destroy the reputations of public servants in the name of protecting your president. A faustian bargain indeed when you consider the traditional values of the party you have jettisoned in order to get power: fiscal conservatism, family values, morals.

The Democrats shot themselves in the foot with this one. The Republicans sold their souls.

I genuinely like Biden - as a person. I thought, and still think he's a fundamentally decent guy. Until he became a candidate none of this came up. But the accusations of pedophilia with no evidence hit well below the belt of being disgusting and it's shameless of to spread those kind of rumors about any man unless you have damn good evidence. Inappropriate touching? or comments? I can believe that. Intent behind them? Different people will say different things. Assault/rape? Less believable given the serious inconsistencies in Reade's account, no history in Biden's life, and no record of complaints. So what exactly is going on here? Well, in one way - Biden can thank his own party.

So what's your Faustian Bargain? Mine's easy. I'll vote for Biden if he is the candidate. I am not a Democrat and I am not a Republican, and I will not vote 3rd party. Why? Because the truth is - it will be a throw away vote and the price is too high to do that. Because in my view Trump is the most dangerous and incompetent president we've ever had. He is not only destroying our country, but our institutions. He is corrupting everything he touches and spreads lies every time he opens his mouth. Hyperbole? Maybe. But there is a basis of fact there.

Republicans: you have shown us you are willing to vote in someone with a record of allegations of harassment, rape, assault and it's ok. I will assume you fine with that in Biden and I will wait for you to defend him with your normal exclamations of "witch hunt" and "innocent until proven guilty" right?

Democrats: you have shown us "all women must be believed" regardless of evidence. I assume you will stand your ground here right? After you went after Kavanaugh publicly, rather than examine the allegations privately first?

I'm glad that Biden has called for personnel records to be released - if there was a formal complaint, there will be a record of it. I know how these things work.

It won't end there though. There will be a conspiracy theory if it isn't found. Wanna bet?

So, I've made my Faustian Bargain. What's yours?

Well said Coyote. Outstanding post. You spoke truth to both parties. Amen.

Progs always say these things. As long as we move left.

 

[Olde Europe]

Would you vote 3rd party?

IMO, allegations are that until proven, either in the courts or law enforcement or even, for voting purposes an established history.

But we have moved dangerously away from the standard of “innocent until proven guilty” when it comes to two reputation and life destroying allegations: rape and pedo. I do not like Kavanaugh, but I sympathize with his anger over what the Dems did. Likewise, now, what is going on with Biden and the hypocrisies involved.

If you make an allegation, file a report and put yourself on the line supporting it. If you wait 27 years, your credibility might be thin. If you accept a simple denial as adequate for an R then why not for a D?

I see way to many inconsistencies in Reade’s account that bother me. She filed a report (but did not name Biden)...so let’s see what comes out of that. But let’s say police verify it. I would vote Biden, for the reasons I listed. And that probably is similar to the way some felt voting for Trump over Hilary (though I had no big issue with her).

Voting for the lesser of two evils is still not a good place to be.

‘But we have moved dangerously away from the standard of “innocent until proven guilty” when it comes to two reputation and life destroying allegations…’

Actually not.

The doctrine of a presumption of innocence applies solely to the judicial process, not political; with regard to the political process it as never been a ‘standard.’

The veracity of allegations of sexual misconduct in the political process is determined solely by the people when they vote; or in the case of political or judicial appointments, the people’s elected representatives.

The standard, therefore, would be Trump/Kavanaugh, where the former was not disqualified to hold elected office after allegations of sexual misconduct, and the latter was not disqualified to sit on the Supreme Court, also subject to allegations of sexual misconduct.

Pursuant to this standard – established by the voters – Biden is likewise not disqualified to hold public office because of allegations of sexual misconduct.

You are right asserting that the presumption of innocence applies to the juridical process only. The reason why that's justifiable is, those thus judged aren't deprived of liberty or life in the court of public opinion. More importantly, the standard is lower because we entrust these people with our well-being and our life. There cannot be a standard for trust (as in en-trust) comparable to the presumption of innocence because it would leave in office thugs smart enough not to leave a trail of overwhelming evidence against them. That's before we start thinking about how we are not in the business of reviewing physical evidence or questioning witnesses under oath.

I wholeheartedly disagree that Republicans, in the way they dealt with Trump/Kavanaugh, set a standard for anyone else. The standards we hold dear, and adhere to, are an expression of our own self, and part of why, occasionally, we might have some reason for self-respect even amidst fierce political battles. We'd enter into the exact same bargain with the "devil" Republicans entered into, and they will have to pay dearly for it in the longer run. That's why the Franken standard was quite unlike the Trump/Kavanaugh standard, and Biden's handling of the Reade case is thankfully widely different from Trump/Kavanaugh. The Republicans had Amash insisting on integrity and accountability. They forced him out over his disagreement with the Dear Leader. Democrats / Liberals / Progressives should act differently, exactly because of what they are, at least aim to be.

I dearly hope Reade will be heard, and be treated with respect throughout, and that's while I think her accusation is likely false.

 

[Coyote]

Faustian bargain, a pact whereby a person trades something of supreme moral or spiritual importance, such as personal values or the soul, for some worldly or material benefit, such as knowledge, power, or riches.

Is that politics today?

First - a big shout out and thanks to Democrats for setting up impossible standards and today's standard of guilty until proven innocent with your "all women must be believed" and the weaponizing of sexual assault in a last ditch attempt to stop a Supreme Court nomination. You've shown us it's ok to smear a decent man publicly, if that is what it takes. That wasn't the way to do it and you've now set something in play the you can't stop.

Second - a big shout out and thanks to the Republicans who are willing to do anything and elect anything to office in order to preserve power. You have shown us it's ok for to elect a man with multiple lawsuits and allegations of sexual harassment, assault, and rape. You have shown us that lying, promoting senseless conspiracy theories, defending the indefensible and destroying the reputations of good public servants and our institutions of democracy to preserve a thin skinned idiot is worth any price.

Democrats - you've cemented in place, a trend. The result of that trend is no good decent man (and this applies more to men then women, though Hilary was subject to some of these types of attacks) - will run for office because all it takes is ALLEGATIONS - and the automatic presumption of guilt in situations that most of the time can't be proved one way or the other and never go to court or get settled in lawsuits. What good candidates have the armor, the courage, the ego or reputation to be willing to put themselves in that bullring? What does that leave us with? And now, it's all coming back on you.

Republicans - you've cemented in place a new NORM. Anything goes. If you have a majority, you can steal a Supreme Court nomination. You can push funds towards supporting and investigating baseless conspiracy theories. You get to redefine facts. You can destroy the reputations of public servants in the name of protecting your president. A faustian bargain indeed when you consider the traditional values of the party you have jettisoned in order to get power: fiscal conservatism, family values, morals.

The Democrats shot themselves in the foot with this one. The Republicans sold their souls.

I genuinely like Biden - as a person. I thought, and still think he's a fundamentally decent guy. Until he became a candidate none of this came up. But the accusations of pedophilia with no evidence hit well below the belt of being disgusting and it's shameless of to spread those kind of rumors about any man unless you have damn good evidence. Inappropriate touching? or comments? I can believe that. Intent behind them? Different people will say different things. Assault/rape? Less believable given the serious inconsistencies in Reade's account, no history in Biden's life, and no record of complaints. So what exactly is going on here? Well, in one way - Biden can thank his own party.

So what's your Faustian Bargain? Mine's easy. I'll vote for Biden if he is the candidate. I am not a Democrat and I am not a Republican, and I will not vote 3rd party. Why? Because the truth is - it will be a throw away vote and the price is too high to do that. Because in my view Trump is the most dangerous and incompetent president we've ever had. He is not only destroying our country, but our institutions. He is corrupting everything he touches and spreads lies every time he opens his mouth. Hyperbole? Maybe. But there is a basis of fact there.

Republicans: you have shown us you are willing to vote in someone with a record of allegations of harassment, rape, assault and it's ok. I will assume you fine with that in Biden and I will wait for you to defend him with your normal exclamations of "witch hunt" and "innocent until proven guilty" right?

Democrats: you have shown us "all women must be believed" regardless of evidence. I assume you will stand your ground here right? After you went after Kavanaugh publicly, rather than examine the allegations privately first?

I'm glad that Biden has called for personnel records to be released - if there was a formal complaint, there will be a record of it. I know how these things work.

It won't end there though. There will be a conspiracy theory if it isn't found. Wanna bet?

So, I've made my Faustian Bargain. What's yours?

I was waiting to see who Biden picked for his veep, with a third party as the alternative. But this behavior by the Dems over the Biden allegations is probably too much.

So, living in a purple state, I guess my Faustian Bargain is that I'll probably have to not vote Democrat, which would have been the best way to vote against Trump. I can't justify supporting this. Just me.

Would you vote 3rd party?

IMO, allegations are that until proven, either in the courts or law enforcement or even, for voting purposes an established history.

But we have moved dangerously away from the standard of “innocent until proven guilty” when it comes to two reputation and life destroying allegations: rape and pedo. I do not like Kavanaugh, but I sympathize with his anger over what the Dems did. Likewise, now, what is going on with Biden and the hypocrisies involved.

If you make an allegation, file a report and put yourself on the line supporting it. If you wait 27 years, your credibility might be thin. If you accept a simple denial as adequate for an R then why not for a D?

I see way to many inconsistencies in Reade’s account that bother me. She filed a report (but did not name Biden)...so let’s see what comes out of that. But let’s say police verify it. I would vote Biden, for the reasons I listed. And that probably is similar to the way some felt voting for Trump over Hilary (though I had no big issue with her).

Voting for the lesser of two evils is still not a good place to be.

The best way I can explain it, at this point, is to ask you to imagine walking into the voting booth and voting for Trump.

Notice that gnarly feeling in the pit of your stomach? I get that same feeling thinking about voting for either.

I agree with the Dems on far more of the issues, and I think Trumpism is ugly. But goddamn it, I've gotta draw a line somewhere. It was bad enough voting for Hillary.

would you vote for Trump?