Faustian Bargains

[Coyote]

Faustian bargain, a pact whereby a person trades something of supreme moral or spiritual importance, such as personal values or the soul, for some worldly or material benefit, such as knowledge, power, or riches.

Is that politics today?

First - a big shout out and thanks to Democrats for setting up impossible standards and today's standard of guilty until proven innocent with your "all women must be believed" and the weaponizing of sexual assault in a last ditch attempt to stop a Supreme Court nomination. You've shown us it's ok to smear a decent man publicly, if that is what it takes. That wasn't the way to do it and you've now set something in play the you can't stop.

Second - a big shout out and thanks to the Republicans who are willing to do anything and elect anything to office in order to preserve power. You have shown us it's ok for to elect a man with multiple lawsuits and allegations of sexual harassment, assault, and rape. You have shown us that lying, promoting senseless conspiracy theories, defending the indefensible and destroying the reputations of good public servants and our institutions of democracy to preserve a thin skinned idiot is worth any price.

Democrats - you've cemented in place, a trend. The result of that trend is no good decent man (and this applies more to men then women, though Hilary was subject to some of these types of attacks) - will run for office because all it takes is ALLEGATIONS - and the automatic presumption of guilt in situations that most of the time can't be proved one way or the other and never go to court or get settled in lawsuits. What good candidates have the armor, the courage, the ego or reputation to be willing to put themselves in that bullring? What does that leave us with? And now, it's all coming back on you.

Republicans - you've cemented in place a new NORM. Anything goes. If you have a majority, you can steal a Supreme Court nomination. You can push funds towards supporting and investigating baseless conspiracy theories. You get to redefine facts. You can destroy the reputations of public servants in the name of protecting your president. A faustian bargain indeed when you consider the traditional values of the party you have jettisoned in order to get power: fiscal conservatism, family values, morals.

The Democrats shot themselves in the foot with this one. The Republicans sold their souls.

I genuinely like Biden - as a person. I thought, and still think he's a fundamentally decent guy. Until he became a candidate none of this came up. But the accusations of pedophilia with no evidence hit well below the belt of being disgusting and it's shameless of to spread those kind of rumors about any man unless you have damn good evidence. Inappropriate touching? or comments? I can believe that. Intent behind them? Different people will say different things. Assault/rape? Less believable given the serious inconsistencies in Reade's account, no history in Biden's life, and no record of complaints. So what exactly is going on here? Well, in one way - Biden can thank his own party.

So what's your Faustian Bargain? Mine's easy. I'll vote for Biden if he is the candidate. I am not a Democrat and I am not a Republican, and I will not vote 3rd party. Why? Because the truth is - it will be a throw away vote and the price is too high to do that. Because in my view Trump is the most dangerous and incompetent president we've ever had. He is not only destroying our country, but our institutions. He is corrupting everything he touches and spreads lies every time he opens his mouth. Hyperbole? Maybe. But there is a basis of fact there.

Republicans: you have shown us you are willing to vote in someone with a record of allegations of harassment, rape, assault and it's ok. I will assume you fine with that in Biden and I will wait for you to defend him with your normal exclamations of "witch hunt" and "innocent until proven guilty" right?

Democrats: you have shown us "all women must be believed" regardless of evidence. I assume you will stand your ground here right? After you went after Kavanaugh publicly, rather than examine the allegations privately first?

I'm glad that Biden has called for personnel records to be released - if there was a formal complaint, there will be a record of it. I know how these things work.

It won't end there though. There will be a conspiracy theory if it isn't found. Wanna bet?

So, I've made my Faustian Bargain. What's yours?

Well said Coyote. Outstanding post. You spoke truth to both parties. Amen.

Progs always say these things. As long as we move left.

You have pulled us to far to the right.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

Faustian bargain, a pact whereby a person trades something of supreme moral or spiritual importance, such as personal values or the soul, for some worldly or material benefit, such as knowledge, power, or riches.

Is that politics today?

First - a big shout out and thanks to Democrats for setting up impossible standards and today's standard of guilty until proven innocent with your "all women must be believed" and the weaponizing of sexual assault in a last ditch attempt to stop a Supreme Court nomination. You've shown us it's ok to smear a decent man publicly, if that is what it takes. That wasn't the way to do it and you've now set something in play the you can't stop.

Second - a big shout out and thanks to the Republicans who are willing to do anything and elect anything to office in order to preserve power. You have shown us it's ok for to elect a man with multiple lawsuits and allegations of sexual harassment, assault, and rape. You have shown us that lying, promoting senseless conspiracy theories, defending the indefensible and destroying the reputations of good public servants and our institutions of democracy to preserve a thin skinned idiot is worth any price.

Democrats - you've cemented in place, a trend. The result of that trend is no good decent man (and this applies more to men then women, though Hilary was subject to some of these types of attacks) - will run for office because all it takes is ALLEGATIONS - and the automatic presumption of guilt in situations that most of the time can't be proved one way or the other and never go to court or get settled in lawsuits. What good candidates have the armor, the courage, the ego or reputation to be willing to put themselves in that bullring? What does that leave us with? And now, it's all coming back on you.

Republicans - you've cemented in place a new NORM. Anything goes. If you have a majority, you can steal a Supreme Court nomination. You can push funds towards supporting and investigating baseless conspiracy theories. You get to redefine facts. You can destroy the reputations of public servants in the name of protecting your president. A faustian bargain indeed when you consider the traditional values of the party you have jettisoned in order to get power: fiscal conservatism, family values, morals.

The Democrats shot themselves in the foot with this one. The Republicans sold their souls.

I genuinely like Biden - as a person. I thought, and still think he's a fundamentally decent guy. Until he became a candidate none of this came up. But the accusations of pedophilia with no evidence hit well below the belt of being disgusting and it's shameless of to spread those kind of rumors about any man unless you have damn good evidence. Inappropriate touching? or comments? I can believe that. Intent behind them? Different people will say different things. Assault/rape? Less believable given the serious inconsistencies in Reade's account, no history in Biden's life, and no record of complaints. So what exactly is going on here? Well, in one way - Biden can thank his own party.

So what's your Faustian Bargain? Mine's easy. I'll vote for Biden if he is the candidate. I am not a Democrat and I am not a Republican, and I will not vote 3rd party. Why? Because the truth is - it will be a throw away vote and the price is too high to do that. Because in my view Trump is the most dangerous and incompetent president we've ever had. He is not only destroying our country, but our institutions. He is corrupting everything he touches and spreads lies every time he opens his mouth. Hyperbole? Maybe. But there is a basis of fact there.

Republicans: you have shown us you are willing to vote in someone with a record of allegations of harassment, rape, assault and it's ok. I will assume you fine with that in Biden and I will wait for you to defend him with your normal exclamations of "witch hunt" and "innocent until proven guilty" right?

Democrats: you have shown us "all women must be believed" regardless of evidence. I assume you will stand your ground here right? After you went after Kavanaugh publicly, rather than examine the allegations privately first?

I'm glad that Biden has called for personnel records to be released - if there was a formal complaint, there will be a record of it. I know how these things work.

It won't end there though. There will be a conspiracy theory if it isn't found. Wanna bet?

So, I've made my Faustian Bargain. What's yours?

You are so very correct.

We get what we deserve....and who would put their family through the kind of bull***t that we put politicians through.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

Faustian bargain, a pact whereby a person trades something of supreme moral or spiritual importance, such as personal values or the soul, for some worldly or material benefit, such as knowledge, power, or riches.

Is that politics today?

First - a big shout out and thanks to Democrats for setting up impossible standards and today's standard of guilty until proven innocent with your "all women must be believed" and the weaponizing of sexual assault in a last ditch attempt to stop a Supreme Court nomination. You've shown us it's ok to smear a decent man publicly, if that is what it takes. That wasn't the way to do it and you've now set something in play the you can't stop.

Second - a big shout out and thanks to the Republicans who are willing to do anything and elect anything to office in order to preserve power. You have shown us it's ok for to elect a man with multiple lawsuits and allegations of sexual harassment, assault, and rape. You have shown us that lying, promoting senseless conspiracy theories, defending the indefensible and destroying the reputations of good public servants and our institutions of democracy to preserve a thin skinned idiot is worth any price.

Democrats - you've cemented in place, a trend. The result of that trend is no good decent man (and this applies more to men then women, though Hilary was subject to some of these types of attacks) - will run for office because all it takes is ALLEGATIONS - and the automatic presumption of guilt in situations that most of the time can't be proved one way or the other and never go to court or get settled in lawsuits. What good candidates have the armor, the courage, the ego or reputation to be willing to put themselves in that bullring? What does that leave us with? And now, it's all coming back on you.

Republicans - you've cemented in place a new NORM. Anything goes. If you have a majority, you can steal a Supreme Court nomination. You can push funds towards supporting and investigating baseless conspiracy theories. You get to redefine facts. You can destroy the reputations of public servants in the name of protecting your president. A faustian bargain indeed when you consider the traditional values of the party you have jettisoned in order to get power: fiscal conservatism, family values, morals.

The Democrats shot themselves in the foot with this one. The Republicans sold their souls.

I genuinely like Biden - as a person. I thought, and still think he's a fundamentally decent guy. Until he became a candidate none of this came up. But the accusations of pedophilia with no evidence hit well below the belt of being disgusting and it's shameless of to spread those kind of rumors about any man unless you have damn good evidence. Inappropriate touching? or comments? I can believe that. Intent behind them? Different people will say different things. Assault/rape? Less believable given the serious inconsistencies in Reade's account, no history in Biden's life, and no record of complaints. So what exactly is going on here? Well, in one way - Biden can thank his own party.

So what's your Faustian Bargain? Mine's easy. I'll vote for Biden if he is the candidate. I am not a Democrat and I am not a Republican, and I will not vote 3rd party. Why? Because the truth is - it will be a throw away vote and the price is too high to do that. Because in my view Trump is the most dangerous and incompetent president we've ever had. He is not only destroying our country, but our institutions. He is corrupting everything he touches and spreads lies every time he opens his mouth. Hyperbole? Maybe. But there is a basis of fact there.

Republicans: you have shown us you are willing to vote in someone with a record of allegations of harassment, rape, assault and it's ok. I will assume you fine with that in Biden and I will wait for you to defend him with your normal exclamations of "witch hunt" and "innocent until proven guilty" right?

Democrats: you have shown us "all women must be believed" regardless of evidence. I assume you will stand your ground here right? After you went after Kavanaugh publicly, rather than examine the allegations privately first?

I'm glad that Biden has called for personnel records to be released - if there was a formal complaint, there will be a record of it. I know how these things work.

It won't end there though. There will be a conspiracy theory if it isn't found. Wanna bet?

So, I've made my Faustian Bargain. What's yours?

Faust was a victim of his own arrogance and hubris.

A voter voting in good faith to remove from office a president clearly incapable of performing his duties is motivated by neither arrogance nor hubris.

Indeed, a voter cannot be faulted because he’s forced to decide between the lesser of two evils.

Funny how that argument wasn't allowed in 2016.

Shut up and die.

 

[Coyote]

Faustian bargain, a pact whereby a person trades something of supreme moral or spiritual importance, such as personal values or the soul, for some worldly or material benefit, such as knowledge, power, or riches.

Is that politics today?

First - a big shout out and thanks to Democrats for setting up impossible standards and today's standard of guilty until proven innocent with your "all women must be believed" and the weaponizing of sexual assault in a last ditch attempt to stop a Supreme Court nomination. You've shown us it's ok to smear a decent man publicly, if that is what it takes. That wasn't the way to do it and you've now set something in play the you can't stop.

Second - a big shout out and thanks to the Republicans who are willing to do anything and elect anything to office in order to preserve power. You have shown us it's ok for to elect a man with multiple lawsuits and allegations of sexual harassment, assault, and rape. You have shown us that lying, promoting senseless conspiracy theories, defending the indefensible and destroying the reputations of good public servants and our institutions of democracy to preserve a thin skinned idiot is worth any price.

Democrats - you've cemented in place, a trend. The result of that trend is no good decent man (and this applies more to men then women, though Hilary was subject to some of these types of attacks) - will run for office because all it takes is ALLEGATIONS - and the automatic presumption of guilt in situations that most of the time can't be proved one way or the other and never go to court or get settled in lawsuits. What good candidates have the armor, the courage, the ego or reputation to be willing to put themselves in that bullring? What does that leave us with? And now, it's all coming back on you.

Republicans - you've cemented in place a new NORM. Anything goes. If you have a majority, you can steal a Supreme Court nomination. You can push funds towards supporting and investigating baseless conspiracy theories. You get to redefine facts. You can destroy the reputations of public servants in the name of protecting your president. A faustian bargain indeed when you consider the traditional values of the party you have jettisoned in order to get power: fiscal conservatism, family values, morals.

The Democrats shot themselves in the foot with this one. The Republicans sold their souls.

I genuinely like Biden - as a person. I thought, and still think he's a fundamentally decent guy. Until he became a candidate none of this came up. But the accusations of pedophilia with no evidence hit well below the belt of being disgusting and it's shameless of to spread those kind of rumors about any man unless you have damn good evidence. Inappropriate touching? or comments? I can believe that. Intent behind them? Different people will say different things. Assault/rape? Less believable given the serious inconsistencies in Reade's account, no history in Biden's life, and no record of complaints. So what exactly is going on here? Well, in one way - Biden can thank his own party.

So what's your Faustian Bargain? Mine's easy. I'll vote for Biden if he is the candidate. I am not a Democrat and I am not a Republican, and I will not vote 3rd party. Why? Because the truth is - it will be a throw away vote and the price is too high to do that. Because in my view Trump is the most dangerous and incompetent president we've ever had. He is not only destroying our country, but our institutions. He is corrupting everything he touches and spreads lies every time he opens his mouth. Hyperbole? Maybe. But there is a basis of fact there.

Republicans: you have shown us you are willing to vote in someone with a record of allegations of harassment, rape, assault and it's ok. I will assume you fine with that in Biden and I will wait for you to defend him with your normal exclamations of "witch hunt" and "innocent until proven guilty" right?

Democrats: you have shown us "all women must be believed" regardless of evidence. I assume you will stand your ground here right? After you went after Kavanaugh publicly, rather than examine the allegations privately first?

I'm glad that Biden has called for personnel records to be released - if there was a formal complaint, there will be a record of it. I know how these things work.

It won't end there though. There will be a conspiracy theory if it isn't found. Wanna bet?

So, I've made my Faustian Bargain. What's yours?

You are so very correct.

We get what we deserve....and who would put their family through the kind of bull***t that we put politicians through.

Exactly....

 

[Missourian]

I like Trump. I think he ia doing a good job. Lawsuits and allegations...after Kavanaugh...hard to make that dog hunt. Thin skinned?...The same media that excoriated Kavanaugh just tried to give Biden a pass. The media that defended Obama at every turn then twists Trump's every word to then mock things he never said. Now it turns out the FBI WAS out to get him. Washington is a mess...the media is full of lying activists and the country is tearing itself apart...and maybe that's ok.

Maybe it's time to split the sheets as they say. Both sides yell past each other...no one is listening. Best to just go our own ways and start over.

 

[Olde Europe]

We get what we deserve....and who would put their family through the kind of bull***t that we put politicians through.

For crying out loud.

How often did you express that thought during the eight years of increasingly malignant right-wing media assaults on Obama?

For I suspect, the thought didn't occur to you during that time, while President Obama took the rightarded bellowing and screeching calmly, with dignity and grace. But now, since you feel the need to come to the rescue of that overgrown, whiny, petulant man-baby, suddenly you start to think about "the kind of bull***t that we put politicians through."

But do you, really? For I find your oh-so-pressing concern for the well-being of others cute, at best:

Shut up and die.

Because, what better way is there to express respect for the dignity and humanity of others, eh?

 

[Mac1958]

Faustian bargain, a pact whereby a person trades something of supreme moral or spiritual importance, such as personal values or the soul, for some worldly or material benefit, such as knowledge, power, or riches.

Is that politics today?

First - a big shout out and thanks to Democrats for setting up impossible standards and today's standard of guilty until proven innocent with your "all women must be believed" and the weaponizing of sexual assault in a last ditch attempt to stop a Supreme Court nomination. You've shown us it's ok to smear a decent man publicly, if that is what it takes. That wasn't the way to do it and you've now set something in play the you can't stop.

Second - a big shout out and thanks to the Republicans who are willing to do anything and elect anything to office in order to preserve power. You have shown us it's ok for to elect a man with multiple lawsuits and allegations of sexual harassment, assault, and rape. You have shown us that lying, promoting senseless conspiracy theories, defending the indefensible and destroying the reputations of good public servants and our institutions of democracy to preserve a thin skinned idiot is worth any price.

Democrats - you've cemented in place, a trend. The result of that trend is no good decent man (and this applies more to men then women, though Hilary was subject to some of these types of attacks) - will run for office because all it takes is ALLEGATIONS - and the automatic presumption of guilt in situations that most of the time can't be proved one way or the other and never go to court or get settled in lawsuits. What good candidates have the armor, the courage, the ego or reputation to be willing to put themselves in that bullring? What does that leave us with? And now, it's all coming back on you.

Republicans - you've cemented in place a new NORM. Anything goes. If you have a majority, you can steal a Supreme Court nomination. You can push funds towards supporting and investigating baseless conspiracy theories. You get to redefine facts. You can destroy the reputations of public servants in the name of protecting your president. A faustian bargain indeed when you consider the traditional values of the party you have jettisoned in order to get power: fiscal conservatism, family values, morals.

The Democrats shot themselves in the foot with this one. The Republicans sold their souls.

I genuinely like Biden - as a person. I thought, and still think he's a fundamentally decent guy. Until he became a candidate none of this came up. But the accusations of pedophilia with no evidence hit well below the belt of being disgusting and it's shameless of to spread those kind of rumors about any man unless you have damn good evidence. Inappropriate touching? or comments? I can believe that. Intent behind them? Different people will say different things. Assault/rape? Less believable given the serious inconsistencies in Reade's account, no history in Biden's life, and no record of complaints. So what exactly is going on here? Well, in one way - Biden can thank his own party.

So what's your Faustian Bargain? Mine's easy. I'll vote for Biden if he is the candidate. I am not a Democrat and I am not a Republican, and I will not vote 3rd party. Why? Because the truth is - it will be a throw away vote and the price is too high to do that. Because in my view Trump is the most dangerous and incompetent president we've ever had. He is not only destroying our country, but our institutions. He is corrupting everything he touches and spreads lies every time he opens his mouth. Hyperbole? Maybe. But there is a basis of fact there.

Republicans: you have shown us you are willing to vote in someone with a record of allegations of harassment, rape, assault and it's ok. I will assume you fine with that in Biden and I will wait for you to defend him with your normal exclamations of "witch hunt" and "innocent until proven guilty" right?

Democrats: you have shown us "all women must be believed" regardless of evidence. I assume you will stand your ground here right? After you went after Kavanaugh publicly, rather than examine the allegations privately first?

I'm glad that Biden has called for personnel records to be released - if there was a formal complaint, there will be a record of it. I know how these things work.

It won't end there though. There will be a conspiracy theory if it isn't found. Wanna bet?

So, I've made my Faustian Bargain. What's yours?

I was waiting to see who Biden picked for his veep, with a third party as the alternative. But this behavior by the Dems over the Biden allegations is probably too much.

So, living in a purple state, I guess my Faustian Bargain is that I'll probably have to not vote Democrat, which would have been the best way to vote against Trump. I can't justify supporting this. Just me.

Would you vote 3rd party?

IMO, allegations are that until proven, either in the courts or law enforcement or even, for voting purposes an established history.

But we have moved dangerously away from the standard of “innocent until proven guilty” when it comes to two reputation and life destroying allegations: rape and pedo. I do not like Kavanaugh, but I sympathize with his anger over what the Dems did. Likewise, now, what is going on with Biden and the hypocrisies involved.

If you make an allegation, file a report and put yourself on the line supporting it. If you wait 27 years, your credibility might be thin. If you accept a simple denial as adequate for an R then why not for a D?

I see way to many inconsistencies in Reade’s account that bother me. She filed a report (but did not name Biden)...so let’s see what comes out of that. But let’s say police verify it. I would vote Biden, for the reasons I listed. And that probably is similar to the way some felt voting for Trump over Hilary (though I had no big issue with her).

Voting for the lesser of two evils is still not a good place to be.

The best way I can explain it, at this point, is to ask you to imagine walking into the voting booth and voting for Trump.

Notice that gnarly feeling in the pit of your stomach? I get that same feeling thinking about voting for either.

I agree with the Dems on far more of the issues, and I think Trumpism is ugly. But goddamn it, I've gotta draw a line somewhere. It was bad enough voting for Hillary.

would you vote for Trump?

Holy crap no.

 

[Mac1958]

Coyote, this thread has provided a vivid example of why this topic pushes me away from the Democratic Party.

When a right winger is accused of this stuff, the woman is automatically believed, and the man is automatically condemned. The story is leveraged as just another example of the bigotry and misogyny that infect essentially the entire GOP. "Me Too" takes off, and anyone on the Right who dares to whisper a discouraging word is summarily vilified and lumped in with the accused perpetrator. The press goes nuts from DAY ONE, zeroing right in on it.

But when a LEFT winger is accused, suddenly we see nuance. We see a measured and thoughtful approach to the story, as the Left beseeches us to carefully weigh the facts and stories. Look at this thread: Rhapsodic pontificating on the Constitution, jurisprudence, and the critical importance of open-minded examination of all the evidence. And, of course, the press clearly avoids a comprehensive look at the story for as long as it thinks it possibly can.

This party has been pushing some of us away for quite a while. I still lean Left, I still want to vote Democrat (especially in the ugly Age of Trumpism) but for fuck's sake, there are limits. And interestingly, there are a lot of Progressives, on the other end of the Left spectrum from me, who are saying the same things. This party is fucked up right now.

 

[Coyote]

Coyote, this thread has provided a vivid example of why this topic pushes me away from the Democratic Party.

When a right winger is accused of this stuff, the woman is automatically believed, and the man is automatically condemned. The story is leveraged as just another example of the bigotry and misogyny that infect essentially the entire GOP. "Me Too" takes off, and anyone on the Right who dares to whisper a discouraging word is summarily vilified and lumped in with the accused perpetrator. The press goes nuts from DAY ONE, zeroing right in on it.

But when a LEFT winger is accused, suddenly we see nuance. We see a measured and thoughtful approach to the story, as the Left beseeches us to carefully weigh the facts and stories. Look at this thread: Rhapsodic pontificating on the Constitution, jurisprudence, and the critical importance of open-minded examination of all the evidence. And, of course, the press clearly avoids a comprehensive look at the story for as long as it thinks it possibly can.

This party has been pushing some of us away for quite a while. I still lean Left, I still want to vote Democrat (especially in the ugly Age of Trumpism) but for fuck's sake, there are limits. And interestingly, there are a lot of Progressives, on the other end of the Left spectrum from me, who are saying the same things. This party is fucked up right now.

You are right, that is a fair assessment.

Unfortunately I am seeing the Republicans as just as fucked out, and they oppose most of the positions I support now. There are several things I feel so strongly about I can not vote for them as they are right now.

I have voted Green before, but they have no strength outside local elections.

 

[Mac1958]

Coyote, this thread has provided a vivid example of why this topic pushes me away from the Democratic Party.

When a right winger is accused of this stuff, the woman is automatically believed, and the man is automatically condemned. The story is leveraged as just another example of the bigotry and misogyny that infect essentially the entire GOP. "Me Too" takes off, and anyone on the Right who dares to whisper a discouraging word is summarily vilified and lumped in with the accused perpetrator. The press goes nuts from DAY ONE, zeroing right in on it.

But when a LEFT winger is accused, suddenly we see nuance. We see a measured and thoughtful approach to the story, as the Left beseeches us to carefully weigh the facts and stories. Look at this thread: Rhapsodic pontificating on the Constitution, jurisprudence, and the critical importance of open-minded examination of all the evidence. And, of course, the press clearly avoids a comprehensive look at the story for as long as it thinks it possibly can.

This party has been pushing some of us away for quite a while. I still lean Left, I still want to vote Democrat (especially in the ugly Age of Trumpism) but for fuck's sake, there are limits. And interestingly, there are a lot of Progressives, on the other end of the Left spectrum from me, who are saying the same things. This party is fucked up right now.

You are right, that is a fair assessment.

Unfortunately I am seeing the Republicans as just as fucked out, and they oppose most of the positions I support now. There are several things I feel so strongly about I can not vote for them as they are right now.

I have voted Green before, but they have no strength outside local elections.

Understandable, and I can see voting Democrat to most effectively vote against Trump(ism). Which, by the way, is a distortion of that party too, and I agree that party is a mess.

A really bad time in our history.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Coyote, this thread has provided a vivid example of why this topic pushes me away from the Democratic Party.

When a right winger is accused of this stuff, the woman is automatically believed, and the man is automatically condemned. The story is leveraged as just another example of the bigotry and misogyny that infect essentially the entire GOP. "Me Too" takes off, and anyone on the Right who dares to whisper a discouraging word is summarily vilified and lumped in with the accused perpetrator. The press goes nuts from DAY ONE, zeroing right in on it.

But when a LEFT winger is accused, suddenly we see nuance. We see a measured and thoughtful approach to the story, as the Left beseeches us to carefully weigh the facts and stories. Look at this thread: Rhapsodic pontificating on the Constitution, jurisprudence, and the critical importance of open-minded examination of all the evidence. And, of course, the press clearly avoids a comprehensive look at the story for as long as it thinks it possibly can.

This party has been pushing some of us away for quite a while. I still lean Left, I still want to vote Democrat (especially in the ugly Age of Trumpism) but for fuck's sake, there are limits. And interestingly, there are a lot of Progressives, on the other end of the Left spectrum from me, who are saying the same things. This party is fucked up right now.

Al Franken would be so surprised. Have you told him all this?

 

[Dick Foster]

Faustian bargain, a pact whereby a person trades something of supreme moral or spiritual importance, such as personal values or the soul, for some worldly or material benefit, such as knowledge, power, or riches.

Is that politics today?

First - a big shout out and thanks to Democrats for setting up impossible standards and today's standard of guilty until proven innocent with your "all women must be believed" and the weaponizing of sexual assault in a last ditch attempt to stop a Supreme Court nomination. You've shown us it's ok to smear a decent man publicly, if that is what it takes. That wasn't the way to do it and you've now set something in play the you can't stop.

Second - a big shout out and thanks to the Republicans who are willing to do anything and elect anything to office in order to preserve power. You have shown us it's ok for to elect a man with multiple lawsuits and allegations of sexual harassment, assault, and rape. You have shown us that lying, promoting senseless conspiracy theories, defending the indefensible and destroying the reputations of good public servants and our institutions of democracy to preserve a thin skinned idiot is worth any price.

Democrats - you've cemented in place, a trend. The result of that trend is no good decent man (and this applies more to men then women, though Hilary was subject to some of these types of attacks) - will run for office because all it takes is ALLEGATIONS - and the automatic presumption of guilt in situations that most of the time can't be proved one way or the other and never go to court or get settled in lawsuits. What good candidates have the armor, the courage, the ego or reputation to be willing to put themselves in that bullring? What does that leave us with? And now, it's all coming back on you.

Republicans - you've cemented in place a new NORM. Anything goes. If you have a majority, you can steal a Supreme Court nomination. You can push funds towards supporting and investigating baseless conspiracy theories. You get to redefine facts. You can destroy the reputations of public servants in the name of protecting your president. A faustian bargain indeed when you consider the traditional values of the party you have jettisoned in order to get power: fiscal conservatism, family values, morals.

The Democrats shot themselves in the foot with this one. The Republicans sold their souls.

I genuinely like Biden - as a person. I thought, and still think he's a fundamentally decent guy. Until he became a candidate none of this came up. But the accusations of pedophilia with no evidence hit well below the belt of being disgusting and it's shameless of to spread those kind of rumors about any man unless you have damn good evidence. Inappropriate touching? or comments? I can believe that. Intent behind them? Different people will say different things. Assault/rape? Less believable given the serious inconsistencies in Reade's account, no history in Biden's life, and no record of complaints. So what exactly is going on here? Well, in one way - Biden can thank his own party.

So what's your Faustian Bargain? Mine's easy. I'll vote for Biden if he is the candidate. I am not a Democrat and I am not a Republican, and I will not vote 3rd party. Why? Because the truth is - it will be a throw away vote and the price is too high to do that. Because in my view Trump is the most dangerous and incompetent president we've ever had. He is not only destroying our country, but our institutions. He is corrupting everything he touches and spreads lies every time he opens his mouth. Hyperbole? Maybe. But there is a basis of fact there.

Republicans: you have shown us you are willing to vote in someone with a record of allegations of harassment, rape, assault and it's ok. I will assume you fine with that in Biden and I will wait for you to defend him with your normal exclamations of "witch hunt" and "innocent until proven guilty" right?

Democrats: you have shown us "all women must be believed" regardless of evidence. I assume you will stand your ground here right? After you went after Kavanaugh publicly, rather than examine the allegations privately first?

I'm glad that Biden has called for personnel records to be released - if there was a formal complaint, there will be a record of it. I know how these things work.

It won't end there though. There will be a conspiracy theory if it isn't found. Wanna bet?

So, I've made my Faustian Bargain. What's yours?

You call call it what you want but when I was coming up we called that kind of shit making a deal with the devil. That is your traded your soul for something of less worth. It's an indicator of shallower minds and an overall lack of character and moral fortitude. In other words being a gutless coward or worse a scheming, conniving, lying politician.

 

[Mac1958]

Coyote, this thread has provided a vivid example of why this topic pushes me away from the Democratic Party.

When a right winger is accused of this stuff, the woman is automatically believed, and the man is automatically condemned. The story is leveraged as just another example of the bigotry and misogyny that infect essentially the entire GOP. "Me Too" takes off, and anyone on the Right who dares to whisper a discouraging word is summarily vilified and lumped in with the accused perpetrator. The press goes nuts from DAY ONE, zeroing right in on it.

But when a LEFT winger is accused, suddenly we see nuance. We see a measured and thoughtful approach to the story, as the Left beseeches us to carefully weigh the facts and stories. Look at this thread: Rhapsodic pontificating on the Constitution, jurisprudence, and the critical importance of open-minded examination of all the evidence. And, of course, the press clearly avoids a comprehensive look at the story for as long as it thinks it possibly can.

This party has been pushing some of us away for quite a while. I still lean Left, I still want to vote Democrat (especially in the ugly Age of Trumpism) but for fuck's sake, there are limits. And interestingly, there are a lot of Progressives, on the other end of the Left spectrum from me, who are saying the same things. This party is fucked up right now.

Al Franken would be so surprised. Have you told him all this?

Yeah, that changes everything.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Coyote, this thread has provided a vivid example of why this topic pushes me away from the Democratic Party.

When a right winger is accused of this stuff, the woman is automatically believed, and the man is automatically condemned. The story is leveraged as just another example of the bigotry and misogyny that infect essentially the entire GOP. "Me Too" takes off, and anyone on the Right who dares to whisper a discouraging word is summarily vilified and lumped in with the accused perpetrator. The press goes nuts from DAY ONE, zeroing right in on it.

But when a LEFT winger is accused, suddenly we see nuance. We see a measured and thoughtful approach to the story, as the Left beseeches us to carefully weigh the facts and stories. Look at this thread: Rhapsodic pontificating on the Constitution, jurisprudence, and the critical importance of open-minded examination of all the evidence. And, of course, the press clearly avoids a comprehensive look at the story for as long as it thinks it possibly can.

This party has been pushing some of us away for quite a while. I still lean Left, I still want to vote Democrat (especially in the ugly Age of Trumpism) but for fuck's sake, there are limits. And interestingly, there are a lot of Progressives, on the other end of the Left spectrum from me, who are saying the same things. This party is fucked up right now.

Al Franken would be so surprised. Have you told him all this?

Yeah, that changes everything.

"So i can have my job back, now?"

-Al

 

[Coyote]

Coyote, this thread has provided a vivid example of why this topic pushes me away from the Democratic Party.

When a right winger is accused of this stuff, the woman is automatically believed, and the man is automatically condemned. The story is leveraged as just another example of the bigotry and misogyny that infect essentially the entire GOP. "Me Too" takes off, and anyone on the Right who dares to whisper a discouraging word is summarily vilified and lumped in with the accused perpetrator. The press goes nuts from DAY ONE, zeroing right in on it.

But when a LEFT winger is accused, suddenly we see nuance. We see a measured and thoughtful approach to the story, as the Left beseeches us to carefully weigh the facts and stories. Look at this thread: Rhapsodic pontificating on the Constitution, jurisprudence, and the critical importance of open-minded examination of all the evidence. And, of course, the press clearly avoids a comprehensive look at the story for as long as it thinks it possibly can.

This party has been pushing some of us away for quite a while. I still lean Left, I still want to vote Democrat (especially in the ugly Age of Trumpism) but for fuck's sake, there are limits. And interestingly, there are a lot of Progressives, on the other end of the Left spectrum from me, who are saying the same things. This party is fucked up right now.

You are right, that is a fair assessment.

Unfortunately I am seeing the Republicans as just as fucked out, and they oppose most of the positions I support now. There are several things I feel so strongly about I can not vote for them as they are right now.

I have voted Green before, but they have no strength outside local elections.

Understandable, and I can see voting Democrat to most effectively vote against Trump(ism). Which, by the way, is a distortion of that party too, and I agree that party is a mess.

A really bad time in our history.

You said it. Though it started with the Tea Party Movement, Trump has driven the Republican Party to such an extreme point I don’t recognize them as the party of 30 years ago. Most of the capable, principled, moderate Republicans have been driven out or resigned rather than support Trump’s excesses. There is no room for a fiscal conservative who is socially liberal. Unfortunately the Dems are also driving out more moderate members as well. I also see a huge hypocrisy in hatred directed at poor people while bailing out big industries who received huge windfalls in their taxbill. I bet no one demands they get drug tested.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

We get what we deserve....and who would put their family through the kind of bull***t that we put politicians through.

For crying out loud.

How often did you express that thought during the eight years of increasingly malignant right-wing media assaults on Obama?

For I suspect, the thought didn't occur to you during that time, while President Obama took the rightarded bellowing and screeching calmly, with dignity and grace. But now, since you feel the need to come to the rescue of that overgrown, whiny, petulant man-baby, suddenly you start to think about "the kind of bull***t that we put politicians through."

But do you, really? For I find your oh-so-pressing concern for the well-being of others cute, at best:

Shut up and die.

Because, what better way is there to express respect for the dignity and humanity of others, eh?

1. You truly are a left winger.....because you just know how things work. You "suspect".

2. I've been saying it even before Obama. When we had two losers (Gore and Bush) running against each other I was expressing it then. Colin Powell said he'd not run for office because it was known his wife suffered from depression. He wasn't going to subject her to that. Powell would have been a great leader in so many ways. Condie Rice also had great potential...but I don't know that she had the stomach for all the bullshit. I can think of others. So, no, I didn't suddenly start thinking about that. Asshole.

3. I am not coming to Trump's rescue. He was all that before he was elected and I voted for him anyway knowing why he was nominated. I only wanted two things (Gorsuch and Kavennaugh) and I got them. But, I got more.....he's doing a fair job in my opinion and while I know that sends you into baboon mode....I really don't care.

So you are wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

You are a left winger. Shove off moron.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

We get what we deserve....and who would put their family through the kind of bull***t that we put politicians through.

For crying out loud.

How often did you express that thought during the eight years of increasingly malignant right-wing media assaults on Obama?

For I suspect, the thought didn't occur to you during that time, while President Obama took the rightarded bellowing and screeching calmly, with dignity and grace. But now, since you feel the need to come to the rescue of that overgrown, whiny, petulant man-baby, suddenly you start to think about "the kind of bull***t that we put politicians through."

But do you, really? For I find your oh-so-pressing concern for the well-being of others cute, at best:

Shut up and die.

Because, what better way is there to express respect for the dignity and humanity of others, eh?

1. You truly are a left winger.....because you just know how things work. You "suspect".

2. I've been saying it even before Obama. When we had two losers (Gore and Bush) running against each other I was expressing it then. Colin Powell said he'd not run for office because it was known his wife suffered from depression. He wasn't going to subject her to that. Powell would have been a great leader in so many ways. Condie Rice also had great potential...but I don't know that she had the stomach for all the bullshit. I can think of others. So, no, I didn't suddenly start thinking about that. Asshole.

3. I am not coming to Trump's rescue. He was all that before he was elected and I voted for him anyway knowing why he was nominated. I only wanted two things (Gorsuch and Kavennaugh) and I got them. But, I got more.....he's doing a fair job in my opinion and while I know that sends you into baboon mode....I really don't care.

So you are wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

You are a left winger. Shove off moron.

Right, because all you care about is controlling women's bodies. Incel loser....

 

[Olde Europe]

Coyote, this thread has provided a vivid example of why this topic pushes me away from the Democratic Party.

When a right winger is accused of this stuff, the woman is automatically believed, and the man is automatically condemned. The story is leveraged as just another example of the bigotry and misogyny that infect essentially the entire GOP. "Me Too" takes off, and anyone on the Right who dares to whisper a discouraging word is summarily vilified and lumped in with the accused perpetrator. The press goes nuts from DAY ONE, zeroing right in on it.

But when a LEFT winger is accused, suddenly we see nuance. We see a measured and thoughtful approach to the story, as the Left beseeches us to carefully weigh the facts and stories. Look at this thread: Rhapsodic pontificating on the Constitution, jurisprudence, and the critical importance of open-minded examination of all the evidence. And, of course, the press clearly avoids a comprehensive look at the story for as long as it thinks it possibly can.

This party has been pushing some of us away for quite a while. I still lean Left, I still want to vote Democrat (especially in the ugly Age of Trumpism) but for fuck's sake, there are limits. And interestingly, there are a lot of Progressives, on the other end of the Left spectrum from me, who are saying the same things. This party is fucked up right now.

Catastrophic. Are you confused, Mac? You can't realize the difference between a political fight on the one hand, and the fight for better protections of women against sexual assault and harassment? Democrats police themselves, and even go into some nuance to do so. That's terrible! The GOP never went anywhere near policing their own. Not a word from you about that. You think nobody notices? Think again.

You are making me laugh. MeToo is, together with Black Lives Matter, the best thing to happen to the U.S. since the Voting Rights Act. They disturb your intellectual slumber, though, and it's all less than perfect, clear-cut and simple to implement. It would urge you to rethink comfortable positions, and it's a bit noisy, and messy, and complicated. So what? Go find yourself a knitting club, dummy.

Of course, a retarded sociopath who bragged about sexual assault is being condemned based on credible allegations confirming the braggart's own words. "Automatically". That's a good laugh. Kavanaugh proved himself to be disrespectful toward women, and temperamentally unsuited to be a Supreme Court Justice, during the Senate hearing. That were the main reasons, along with his rightarded, plutocratic juridical history. His history of sexual assault as a young drunkard is just the odious icing, the ornament on that unpalatable cake. "Automatically." Who on the "left" asked for that terrible, horrible "nuance" when dealing with Weinstein? Without MeToo, that swine would still roam the streets, because of a male-dominated, misogynistic justice system that in effect deemed women and girls fresh meat for glamorous, powerful men, and subjected them to endless humiliation and public exposure in case they dared to complain. Finally, at long last, that is changing.

Go cry me a river!

 

[Mac1958]

Coyote, this thread has provided a vivid example of why this topic pushes me away from the Democratic Party.

When a right winger is accused of this stuff, the woman is automatically believed, and the man is automatically condemned. The story is leveraged as just another example of the bigotry and misogyny that infect essentially the entire GOP. "Me Too" takes off, and anyone on the Right who dares to whisper a discouraging word is summarily vilified and lumped in with the accused perpetrator. The press goes nuts from DAY ONE, zeroing right in on it.

But when a LEFT winger is accused, suddenly we see nuance. We see a measured and thoughtful approach to the story, as the Left beseeches us to carefully weigh the facts and stories. Look at this thread: Rhapsodic pontificating on the Constitution, jurisprudence, and the critical importance of open-minded examination of all the evidence. And, of course, the press clearly avoids a comprehensive look at the story for as long as it thinks it possibly can.

This party has been pushing some of us away for quite a while. I still lean Left, I still want to vote Democrat (especially in the ugly Age of Trumpism) but for fuck's sake, there are limits. And interestingly, there are a lot of Progressives, on the other end of the Left spectrum from me, who are saying the same things. This party is fucked up right now.

Catastrophic. Are you confused, Mac? You can't realize the difference between a political fight on the one hand, and the fight for better protections of women against sexual assault and harassment? Democrats police themselves, and even go into some nuance to do so. That's terrible!

You are making me laugh. MeToo is, together with Black Lives Matter, the best thing to happen to the U.S. since the Voting Rights Act. They disturb your intellectual slumber, though, and it's all less than perfect, clear-cut and simple to implement. It would urge you to rethink comfortable positions, and it's a bit noisy, and messy, and complicated. So what? Go find yourself a knitting club, dummy.

Of course, a retarded sociopath who bragged about sexual assault is being condemned based on credible allegations confirming the braggart's own words. "Automatically". That's a good laugh. Kavanaugh proved himself to be disrespectful toward women, and temperamentally unsuited to be a Supreme Court Justice, during the Senate hearing. That were the main reasons, along with his rightarded, plutocratic juridical history. His history of sexual assault as a young drunkard is just the odious icing, the ornament on that unpalatable cake. "Automatically." Who on the "left" asked for that terrible, horrible "nuance" when dealing with Weinstein? Without MeToo, that swine would still roam the streets, because of a male-dominated, misogynistic justice system that in effect deemed women and girls fresh meat for glamorous, powerful men, and subjected them to endless humiliation and public exposure in case they dared to complain. Finally, at long last, that is changing.

Go cry me a river!

.... and, right on cue.

 

[Redcurtain]

The hypocrisy on the left is absolutely astounding! Disturbing to be honest