Fate Worse Than Death

[eots]

not the end of the world but perhaps the end of your life. I had to terminate a pregnancy due to the fact that I'd have died if I went through with it.... sometimes these choices have to be made.

In the rare case of the life of the mother it becomes a different choice this does not justify the millions of abortions done for convince

only irrelveant if you want to ignore the fact that women bear the burden of caring for these children that you think deserve the chance at life. Only irrelevant if you want to ignore how many women live in poverty with their children while these men live in comfort. Yes, totally irrelevant, only because it ruins your argument that men are forced to pay for the children they help make.

do you have any facts to back any of these gross exaggerations

are you really this stupid? there are waiting lists for WHITE children....newborn babies with pink cheeks and blue eyes. yep yep.... how many people do you think are lining up for the minority babies or babies with health problems? get a fucking clue. and yes there are unwanted babies....one only need watch the news to see evidence of this...otherwise why do parents abuse and neglect their children. Your pie in the sky bullshit of all babies are wanted and precious is ridiculous.

How many children do you foster or have you adopted btw

I raised 2 children of my own and a step child and we adopted a native child who died in a car accident at age 4.. that her mother survived when we separated ..my first set of children are grown now and I am raising a three year old boy on my own.. as I agreed to do if the mother would not to abort the child..and give that much of herself for 9 months..which god bless her she did..even minority babies are in great demand,,unfortunately older children from foster care are difficult to find parents for

 

[Silence]

Then start worrying about the older children who are here and in need of a home than the ones who aren't even in this world yet.

I find it disgusting that so much emphasis is placed on "yet to be born" children while thousands of children go to bed hungry or in fear every single night in this country.

You are to be commended in walkling the walk but do not assume you are the norm as you are not.

as for the men walking away I need not look any further to know this is true than my daily job where I run checks on men every day and find that many have not paid child support in years and owe thousands and thousands of dollars in back support. You ignoring it or pretending it's some "made up" problem won't erase the facts.

btw, what is a native child?

 

[Mr. President]

This is absolutely true. If men could get pregnant there would be more abortion clinics than Starbucks.

Your stupidity astounds me.

Abortion is BAD FOR THE ECONOMY. There is my arguement against abortion for today.

 

[Silence]

Your stupidity astounds me.

Abortion is BAD FOR THE ECONOMY. There is my arguement against abortion for today.

talk about being astoundingly stupid.

 

[Mr. President]

talk about being astoundingly stupid.

We are killing future tax payers who put money into Social Security.

Old people are living longer and thus drawing more from Social Security.

So the obvious solution is either stop abortion or start killing old people.

 

[Silence]

We are killing future tax payers who put money into Social Security.

Old people are living longer and thus drawing more from Social Security.

So the obvious solution is either stop abortion or start killing old people.

it takes 18 years to become a tax payer or longer if you're my nephew

I'm all for killing old people though...what age should we start?

 

[eots]

Then start worrying about the older children who are here and in need of a home than the ones who aren't even in this world yet.

I find it disgusting that so much emphasis is placed on "yet to be born" children while thousands of children go to bed hungry or in fear every single night in this country.

You are to be commended in walkling the walk but do not assume you are the norm as you are not.

as for the men walking away I need not look any further to know this is true than my daily job where I run checks on men every day and find that many have not paid child support in years and owe thousands and thousands of dollars in back support. You ignoring it or pretending it's some "made up" problem won't erase the facts.

btw, what is a native child?

a Indian..a native American..her name was Christine...

and those children you speak of that go to bed in fear and hunger every night
would fight with ever ounce of strength they have if you where to try and take there life and some will go on to greatness and everything else in between...

 

[editec]

Your stupidity astounds me.

Abortion is BAD FOR THE ECONOMY. There is my arguement against abortion for today.

That is true.

Sadly, children are bad for many people's home economics so, being the responsible people they are, they choose not to have children.

If a nation wants a vibrant economy with a growing population we have to make it possible for enough people to have children.

 

[Gunny]

Of course then too there's always the philosophical argument that the government simply does not have the moral right to tell people what they can or cannot do with their own bodies.

That argument seems to me to be the best one in support of reproductive choice.

Except that the reality is the government tells us what we can and cannot do with out own bodies all the time, so it really isn't a good argument.

 

[Mr. President]

it takes 18 years to become a tax payer or longer if you're my nephew

I'm all for killing old people though...what age should we start?

ahh 80 85 area we can start cutting them down

 

[Amanda]

It's discouraging to me how people will barge into a thread and completely derail it, ruining what had the potential to be an interesting conversation.

 

[Silence]

a Indian..a native American..her name was Christine...

and those children you speak of that go to bed in fear and hunger every night
would fight with ever ounce of strength they have if you where to try and take there life and some will go on to greatness and everything else in between...

of that I have no doubt eots, that they would fight to survive but you're comparing a child who is already alive and knows life with a fetus who is floating in a water sac unable to hear or see and knows nothing of the outside world and does not know of love, hate or anything that goes into living.

Some will go onto greatness and I hope for their sake they do. Others will go on to be criminals and/or drains on society. I don't advocate abortion, I advocate the right of a women to choose what is right for her.

ever heard the phrase you never miss what you never had? The world does not miss these children. If they were destined to be born they would be born. it's all part of the bigger picture.

 

[Mr. President]

That is true.

Sadly, children are bad for many people's home economics so, being the responsible people they are, they choose not to have children.

If a nation wants a vibrant economy with a growing population we have to make it possible for enough people to have children.

Investment in trojan would do wonders.

 

[editec]

Except that the reality is the government tells us what we can and cannot do with out own bodies all the time, so it really isn't a good argument.

So you are proposing because the government violates our human rights anytime, they can do it all the time?

That doesn't work for me, Gunny.

 

[editec]

Investment in trojan would do wonders.

98% of the time.

 

[Amanda]

Except that the reality is the government tells us what we can and cannot do with out own bodies all the time, so it really isn't a good argument.

Could you explain more what you're talking about?

 

[Zoom-boing]

but without the mother's body the fetus can not survive therefore it IS in fact PART of her body until such time as it can live outside the womb.

No the baby is a separate being from the mother. Of course the baby cannot grow without the mother but he is within the mother, not a part of her body. And what do woman grow? Babies. You said it yourself:

If the woman's body weren't necessary then why not grow babies in incubators?

you're being overly simplistic and I assume you're doing so because it's the only argument you have. If you assume that women go into abortion lightly then you've never known anyone who had the make that decision. Now there are in fact women who do it callusly and without much thought, those women IMO have no business having children in the first place. Most women agonize over the decision and it's one that they think about for the rest of their lives. Some come to regret their decision while others, while sad for the choice they HAD to make would make that same choice again under those circumstances.

Being overly simplistic? No, just telling the truth. How do you get that I assume women go into abortion lightly? You did not read my previous post thoroughly -- I have friends who have had abortions and I know that nothing about this is 'done lightly'.

Whose conscience needs to be eased? If you disagree with abortion then don't have one. it's pretty simple.

Don't worry, I won't.

see you lose your argument right there because there are instances when abortion shouldn't even be questioned. Rape, Incest, birth defects that would make the quality of life unbearable, life of the mother.

In the instances of incest and life of the mother -- I sickenly agree. As for rape and 'quality of life' -- not quite there.

and what of young girls whose parents are abusive? should she also be made to tell her parents she is pregnant? what of the young girl who is a victim of incest by a family member? what of the young girl who has no parents to speak of?

The young girls whose parents are abusive or victims of incest or sexual abuse or the one's who have no parents -- these girls are the ones who need adult notification as much as, if not more than, a girl without these problems. Can you imagine a young girl who is the victim of sexual abuse or incest and who gets pregnant . . . not only is she going through the trauma of the abuse but she is also to decide on her own about an abortion and also go through that trauma alone?

If the parents are not able to be contacted for whatever reason, some responsible adult in the girls' life needs to be notified. A teacher, a doctor, a clergyman, a nurse, another relative. Girls under 18 are kids and parental notification (or adult notification) should be mandated.

I don't disagree with some restrictions on abortion as I've said before. But to outlaw them completely? I have no desire to go back to the time when women were forced into back alley's and their lives risked for what should be a safe and simple medical procedure.

Again, you failed to thoroughly read my post. I never said to reverse Roe v. Wade -- I said whatever will reduce the number of abortions. If that is keeping abortion legal with restrictions, then so be it.

you pass judgement everytime you say it's MURDER. how do you think that makes a woman feel who may have had to have an abortion?

My intention is not to make anyone feel worse than they do but I will not soften the terms or PC it up just because it brings up emotions in someone. Murder is horrific, as is abortion. Hiding what it is doesn't change the fact that it is murder. I'm sorry if this bothers you but no, I won't call it less than what it is.

It is my body and it is my choice. that's not said to ease my conscience or to asuage my guilt, that's the facts. You do with your body what you choose and I'll do with mine what I choose. You're entitled to your opinion but you're not entitled to foist that opinion on me and make me do things just because you think I should.

It's the baby's body that one's 'choice' affects. How am I foisting my opinion on you and making you do things just because I think you should? I'm expressing my opinions, as are you. Just because you don't agree with my opinions or care for my wording doesn't mean I can't speak them.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Maybe it's crucial to you, but it's not crucial to me. If I'm forced to have a child it's 9 months of I don't get the final say about my body. I could never give up a child I gave birth to so it's another 18 years I don't get the final say about my life. Effectively we're really talking about the rest of my life because the bond wouldn't be broken because the child legally became an adult.

A woman also risks her life to have a baby, which is a point I haven't seen you address.

If there was any sort of guarantee that the father would stay around I would have a different view entirely. But all of the burden is put on the woman, she can't just decide to leave whenever she's done playing house. IMO, that's why our society has given her the power to choose, because it's the only choice she's going to get.

So the fact that an abortion destroys an unborn baby isn't crucial to you? You say you could never give up a child you gave birth to and (later on ) that you would never have an abortion but . . . it sounds to me like perhaps you are not so sure about this.

I haven't addressed the risk of women's life? Gee I didn't know I was suppose to cover every bit of information. It's a risk worth taking. If it's not something a woman wants then take effective birth control but . . . if pregnancy results anyway, take responsibility. I don't believe abortion is the answer.

More honesty in that you're not listening, you're just bellowing talking points. I'm not spinning anything when I say 'tissue mass' I'm mentioning what some people call it. You're approaching this like I'm an enemy because I know a term used by pro-choice people. If I live in a gang infested neighborhood and pick up on gang signs does that mean I'm in a gang? No. You're not looking at any of this objectively.

Amanda, I'm not sure how you're reading my posts but I think you're hearing anger and soap-boxing from me. It isn't the tone I'm intending and I hope you read my words differently. I don't mean anything I post to sound like 'you're the enemy'; please don't read it as such. You're right, I'm probably not very objective because I can't see murder objectively.

Parental notification,
Can get a girl beaten or worse.

Please read my post to Silence on this.

counseling,

May not be needed. It shouldn't be up to the state to mandate it. If I've already talked to my pastor or family or whoever, why should I have to listen to anything else. No one listens to advice they don't want anyway.

Yes, it should be mandated. Girls under 18 are kids and they need all the counseling and help they can get. They should not be going through this emotional and vulnerable time alone.

all options and information provided to the mother . . .

It's all about how it's packaged. Anything can be propaganda and there doesn't seem to be anyone that wants to be involved in this issue that doesn't have an agenda. How satisfied would you be if the information provided slanted toward pro-abortion ideas? Not very, I'd imagine.

True, which is why it is crucial that parental (or adult) notification should be mandated, as should counseling. The more information provided the better informed the girl will be. She should have as much information and help as possible.

How are these meddling?
LOL.

?

I know a girl back home that lost her baby at 15 because of the beating she got at home when she told her parents she was pregnant.

Please see my post to Silence on this.

If parental notification is mandatory young girls won't go to clinics to get any info or services they will try to do things themselves.

Or perhaps they will practice safe sex or maybe even no sex.

Shouldn't someone who is contemplating aborting their child be given all facts and information and options?
Sure. Maybe you should look into Planned Parenthood, they do that "info" thing.

Your tone about abortion sounds fairly casual Amanda. I may be reading it wrong, but the "sure . . . info" remark above seems off-handed to me.

If you had a daughter and she was under age 18 and got pregnant wouldn't you want to be notified? Or would you prefer she go off and have an abortion without your knowledge?
Of course I would prefer to know. But if it came down to me knowing or her trying to lose the baby on her own, I'd prefer she went to a clinic that didn't inform me.

If you ever have a daughter, look me up and tell me how you feel about this when she's 15 or so.

Sounds like a guilt trip to me.

Guilt trip? How to you come to that conclusion? Like I said if someone chooses to have an abortion they should at least own up to the fact that a human life is destroyed by that choice.

I know a coupe girls that have had them and they are more torn about it than you can probably imagine. I think that and God's own judgement is enough, I don't have to add to their burden.

As have I. My intention is not to add to anyone's burden but like I said to Silence, I'm not going to sugar-coat anything or make abortion seem less than what it is.

 

[Zoom-boing]

I find it disgusting that so much emphasis is placed on "yet to be born" children while thousands of children go to bed hungry or in fear every single night in this country.

This speaks volumns. Do you hear what you're saying?

"I find it disgusting that so much emphasis is placed on 'yet to be born' children".

I find it disguisting that you find 'yet to be born children' worthless and disposable.

 

[Zoom-boing]

of that I have no doubt eots, that they would fight to survive but you're comparing a child who is already alive and knows life with a fetus who is floating in a water sac unable to hear or see and knows nothing of the outside world and does not know of love, hate or anything that goes into living.

Some will go onto greatness and I hope for their sake they do. Others will go on to be criminals and/or drains on society. I don't advocate abortion, I advocate the right of a women to choose what is right for her.

ever heard the phrase you never miss what you never had? The world does not miss these children. If they were destined to be born they would be born. it's all part of the bigger picture.

I honestly don't know how your conscience doesn't keep you up at night. Abortion is murder, stop trying to spin it into a thing of convenience. Stop treating life so damn casually.