Fast & Furious isn't going away

[Sallow]

You meant links right?

one


two


three


four

None of these stories show that the President Obama was personally involved in this.

But is that still your contention?

Yes, it is my contention. Another link that should have been included.

If my contention is correct, should all involved, be prosecuted; terminated; or impeached? Do you think any of this, even if Obama cannot be "personally" connected, is wrong and should be exposed?

BTW, saying that top officials in the WH being involved does not prove Obama knew anything is laughable...I know I know "plausible deniability".

Do you think Obama knows that you are typing this as we communicate? How deep is this rabbit hole?

 

[Sallow]

Lunacy.

Again..you don't know what the **** you are talking about.

The BATF began Project Gunrunner as a pilot project in Laredo, Texas, in 2005 and expanded it as a national initiative in 2006. Project Gunrunner is also part of the Department’s broader Southwest Border Initiative, which seeks to reduce cross-border drug and firearms trafficking and the high level of violence associated with these activities on both sides of the border.[2]

Project Gunrunner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Again, we aren't talking about project gunrunner, we are talking about project Fast and Furious... the brilliant thing Obama and Holder did where they gave 2000 weapons to people they knew would sell to the Cartels and then lost control of them.

Do try to keep up, okay?

Fast and Furious grew out of Gunrunner. It's been going on for quite some time. And again, I've pointed to other law enforcement programs that have resulted in the deaths of innocent civilians.

None of you guys seem to have a problem with any of that.

Nor do you have the problem with the multiple violations of indivdual privacy that really was a part of the Bush administration.

If this were a part of an indictment of law enforcement over-reach, I would say bully for you..and lets close down some of these programs that are dangerous and may be unconstitutional.

It isn't.

It's yet another conflation of some percieved failure of the Obama administration..and a pathetic one at that.

 

[NGSamson]

If a Republican was in there right now,i'm positive the CNN,NBC,and NY Times nutters would be screeching for immediate Impeachment. This cover-up only makes this a much bigger tragedy. Heads need to roll on this one. In my opinion there is far too much blood on Holder's hands for him to continue on as Attorney General. Time for him to get the boot.

True. But the fact that the gun may be turning up at crime scenes in the U.S. is something that no one will ask about or confirm.

'Fast and Furious' weapons found at more violent crime scenes - Washington Times

"The department did not specifically identify any of the locations, but congressional sources and others said the weapons were located at crime sites in Arizona and Texas. More than 40 weapons, the sources said, were recovered near El Paso, Texas, alone, all of which were traced back to the Fast and Furious operation".


That was from the middle of the article.

 

[geauxtohell]

JUST ANSWER THIS QUESTION: Why would the ATF under this administration set up straw buyers to buy semi-automatic weapons so they could deliver them to VIOLENT MEXICAN DRUG CARTELS? Why haven't the straw buyers been ARRESTED?--Why were the 3 ATF agents promoted--instead of getting fired?

Can you answer that? Here we have Eric Holder--threatening to prosecute CIA agents because they got a terrorist's head wet--and he allowed one his agencies--the ATF to deliver semi-automatic weapons to violent Mexican drug cartels.

"Set up"? They were trying to bust these guys selling illegal weapons to the Mexican cartels and establish a link between the illegal sell of American weapons and the cartel officials. That's not a "set up". These straw buyers were not assumed to be innocent people the ATF hoped to ensnare in a web of entrapment.

As for arrests, they did make arrests:

Operation Fast And Furious: The Straw Buyers | FoxNews.com

It sounds like they made arrests, but they did a shitty job of making a case.

All in all this entire operation was poorly planned and executed. I suspect careers will be ruined over this in the long run. Heads are already starting to roll and I don't think any ATF agent will want this on his resume.

As it stands, a stupid tactic by law enforcement. I don't see any hint of criminality. Law enforcement has the latitude to conduct stings. There is nothing illegal about it.

The one thing that does seem awry is that the whistle blower was not protected under the whistle blower act. I would hope that gets hashed out.

At any rate, this seems like a lot of hysteria by the radical 2nd amendment crowd. I don't see why. Aren't you guys always whining about enforcing the laws already on the books? I mean, the purpose of this was to arrest and prosecute illegal gun dealers.

The only thing I can see is that you are giddy at the embarrassment of an agency you have long hated, the ATF, and hopeful that this will escalate to some sort of presidential scandal.

I am not giddy that the ATF dumped a net of 1400 semi automatic weapons into the hands of the drug cartels. I think it's tragic that one of them was used in the murder of a border patrol agent. I am dubious that "but for" the ATF's action the cartels would be walking around with slingshots. Those guys are better armed then most small military units and they can get sufficiently more powerful guns and explosives from most anywhere, to include central America and South America were we have been dumping weapons for years.

 

[geauxtohell]

Sales of guns and ammunition sky-rocketed in this country after Obama was elected. In fact one couldn't even get ammunition. That's how afraid everyone was that he was going to implement some type of serious gun control--so everyone ran out and bought a gun. Never BEFORE--has a President enacted so much fear into gun ownership in this country.

NOW--there's something that just doesn't make sense to me in this Fast and Furious program.

WHO IS STUPID ENOUGH TO DELIVER SEMI-AUTOMATIC WEAPONS TO DRUG LORDS IN MEXICO? Answer--NO ONE IS.

Therefore--while Obama and Hillary were out there accusing Americans of delivering guns to Mexican drug cartels--it was an agency under them called the ATF that was doing it--and for WHAT REASON would they do something that is beyond any rational thought of comprehension?

Possibly to build a case--that semi automatic weapons should no longer be sold in the US because they're killing too many in Mexico.

And if you think about it--THAT IS THE ONLY THING THAT MAKES ANY SENSE IN ALL OF THIS.

So in other words, paranoia (past and present) and a conspiracy theory?

Please feel free to point out anywhere in the F&F program where chain of evidence was even attempted. No case could have been filed in any court in this land because there was ZERO ATTEMPT TO MAINTAIN A CHAIN OF EVIDENCE (look the term up, it is an ESSENTIAL part of any case brought to trial), so if there was no attempt to maintain a chain of evidence what was the reason for allowing weapons into the hands of known felons?


I'm waiting.

Operation Fast And Furious: The Straw Buyers | FoxNews.com

If they didn't maintain a proper chain of evidence (I don't need to look it up, it's evident), then I can only assume it was due to gross incompetence.

It's not illegal to be incompetent. It just shouldn't be tolerated.

What's your theory?

I mean, in the end that's what it is going to come down too. what you believe versus what I believe.

 

[geauxtohell]

Did you even read the article you linked? You're getting to be like TDNM, cherry picking information but ignoring parts that contradict your position.

Yeah..I do.

This is part and parcel with the extraordinary tactics used by law enforcement for a VERY LONG TIME.

I listed them.

And for some STRANGE reason..this is the one that you guys are focusing on.

Bait cars, undercovers, lying to suspects, no knock warrants, and a plethora of other "tools of the trade" cause unwarranted tragedy. Heck..you guys defended this stuff tooth and nails in the past.

Wonder what's changed?

Lying to suspects is an unwarranted tragedy? Oh come now, Sallow! You're a better man than that. Comparing legal police tactics to facilitating gun running that has gotten hundreds of people killed? Please spend some time in search of your missing mind. I know you used to possess one.

?

You think the ATF was "gunrunning" as opposed to attempting to interdict "gunrunning"?

That's just silly.

 

[geauxtohell]

Shame on the corrupt Liberal Press for trying their best to ignore this scandal. They are now complicit in this awful cover-up. Holder should probably be arrested for Murder. I would love to see that asshole in an orange jumpsuit.

We know. You are obsessed with it. You keep reminding us.

Charged with murder? Defend that legally?

What are you going to go for? Felony murder?

 

[clevergirl]

None of these stories show that the President Obama was personally involved in this.

But is that still your contention?

Yes, it is my contention. Another link that should have been included.

If my contention is correct, should all involved, be prosecuted; terminated; or impeached? Do you think any of this, even if Obama cannot be "personally" connected, is wrong and should be exposed?

BTW, saying that top officials in the WH being involved does not prove Obama knew anything is laughable...I know I know "plausible deniability".

Do you think Obama knows that you are typing this as we communicate? How deep is this rabbit hole?

I asked what you thought? I know that your style is to pretend you have an intellect. I have already told you what I believe to be the facts of the case. Instead of answering you asked for links. When given links you state "none of them prove Obama was personally involved". What they show is that Obama should have known; that Obama seemed to know something, as his quip to Sarah Brady alludes; and that top officials at the WH DID know.

So again, if allegations about F&F are true, should action be taken even if it includes action against Obama?

 

[westwall]

Yeah..I do.

This is part and parcel with the extraordinary tactics used by law enforcement for a VERY LONG TIME.

I listed them.

And for some STRANGE reason..this is the one that you guys are focusing on.

Bait cars, undercovers, lying to suspects, no knock warrants, and a plethora of other "tools of the trade" cause unwarranted tragedy. Heck..you guys defended this stuff tooth and nails in the past.

Wonder what's changed?

Show me a chain of evidence Sallow. Show me any attempt at all to build a case. All I see is a wilful flooding of weapons into the hands of drug lords.

So what you're saying is the police did something stupid?

Is this the first time it happened?

And do you think that President Obama had a soup to nuts involvement in this like the offing of Osama Bin Laden or those wacky pirates you conservatives don't give him one whit of credit for?

The police do stupid things all of the time. Mostly accidentally. This was a wilful ignoring of all legal protocols. There WAS NO ATTEMPT AT ALL TO BUILD A CASE. Do you understand now?

I have no idea if Obama knew anything. I do know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Holder did and he lied to Congress about it. He spoke about it months before the crap hit the rotary oscillator.

 

[Zona]

Just like in 2008 and the "******" tapes, this will be the thing that brings him down! This is it!!!!!!!

 

[westwall]

So in other words, paranoia (past and present) and a conspiracy theory?

Please feel free to point out anywhere in the F&F program where chain of evidence was even attempted. No case could have been filed in any court in this land because there was ZERO ATTEMPT TO MAINTAIN A CHAIN OF EVIDENCE (look the term up, it is an ESSENTIAL part of any case brought to trial), so if there was no attempt to maintain a chain of evidence what was the reason for allowing weapons into the hands of known felons?


I'm waiting.

Operation Fast And Furious: The Straw Buyers | FoxNews.com

If they didn't maintain a proper chain of evidence (I don't need to look it up, it's evident), then I can only assume it was due to gross incompetence.

It's not illegal to be incompetent. It just shouldn't be tolerated.

What's your theory?

I mean, in the end that's what it is going to come down too. what you believe versus what I believe.

I don't know what to believe about this to be frank. Gross incompetence doesn't even come close to what occured. There was a wilful avoidance of legal protocols. That is something that can't be swept under a rug.....no matter how hard Holder tries to.

 

[NGSamson]

Please feel free to point out anywhere in the F&F program where chain of evidence was even attempted. No case could have been filed in any court in this land because there was ZERO ATTEMPT TO MAINTAIN A CHAIN OF EVIDENCE (look the term up, it is an ESSENTIAL part of any case brought to trial), so if there was no attempt to maintain a chain of evidence what was the reason for allowing weapons into the hands of known felons?


I'm waiting.

Operation Fast And Furious: The Straw Buyers | FoxNews.com

If they didn't maintain a proper chain of evidence (I don't need to look it up, it's evident), then I can only assume it was due to gross incompetence.

It's not illegal to be incompetent. It just shouldn't be tolerated.

What's your theory?

I mean, in the end that's what it is going to come down too. what you believe versus what I believe.

I don't know what to believe about this to be frank. Gross incompetence doesn't even come close to what occured. There was a wilful avoidance of legal protocols. That is something that can't be swept under a rug.....no matter how hard Holder tries to.

And I bet that all the details have yet to come out.

 

[geauxtohell]

Please feel free to point out anywhere in the F&F program where chain of evidence was even attempted. No case could have been filed in any court in this land because there was ZERO ATTEMPT TO MAINTAIN A CHAIN OF EVIDENCE (look the term up, it is an ESSENTIAL part of any case brought to trial), so if there was no attempt to maintain a chain of evidence what was the reason for allowing weapons into the hands of known felons?


I'm waiting.

Operation Fast And Furious: The Straw Buyers | FoxNews.com

If they didn't maintain a proper chain of evidence (I don't need to look it up, it's evident), then I can only assume it was due to gross incompetence.

It's not illegal to be incompetent. It just shouldn't be tolerated.

What's your theory?

I mean, in the end that's what it is going to come down too. what you believe versus what I believe.

I don't know what to believe about this to be frank. Gross incompetence doesn't even come close to what occured. There was a wilful avoidance of legal protocols. That is something that can't be swept under a rug.....no matter how hard Holder tries to.

So when you have a belief on the matter. Let me know. I'll go with Occam's razor and choose the ever popular "incompetence" over a conspiracy.

They need to come clean. The cover up is always what get's people in trouble. I still see no indication that this was an assault on the second amendment or criminal conspiracy by the part of law enforcement.

They obviously intended to do some good, they obviously screwed it up.

I'd chalk it up to the ATF being less of an investigative branch and more of an enforcement branch. I'll bet, had they brought the FBI in on it, they'd been a lot more successful.

 

[oreo]

Operation Fast And Furious: The Straw Buyers | FoxNews.com

If they didn't maintain a proper chain of evidence (I don't need to look it up, it's evident), then I can only assume it was due to gross incompetence.

It's not illegal to be incompetent. It just shouldn't be tolerated.

What's your theory?

I mean, in the end that's what it is going to come down too. what you believe versus what I believe.

I don't know what to believe about this to be frank. Gross incompetence doesn't even come close to what occured. There was a wilful avoidance of legal protocols. That is something that can't be swept under a rug.....no matter how hard Holder tries to.

And I bet that all the details have yet to come out.

No this one isn't going away--and i imagine we're going to see lot's of smoke-screens coming out of the DOJ---(like suing banks over making bad loans and AT & T to stop them from acquiring T mobile.)

 

[oreo]

Operation Fast And Furious: The Straw Buyers | FoxNews.com

If they didn't maintain a proper chain of evidence (I don't need to look it up, it's evident), then I can only assume it was due to gross incompetence.

It's not illegal to be incompetent. It just shouldn't be tolerated.

What's your theory?

I mean, in the end that's what it is going to come down too. what you believe versus what I believe.

I don't know what to believe about this to be frank. Gross incompetence doesn't even come close to what occured. There was a wilful avoidance of legal protocols. That is something that can't be swept under a rug.....no matter how hard Holder tries to.

So when you have a belief on the matter. Let me know. I'll go with Occam's razor and choose the ever popular "incompetence" over a conspiracy.

They need to come clean. The cover up is always what get's people in trouble. I still see no indication that this was an assault on the second amendment or criminal conspiracy by the part of law enforcement.

They obviously intended to do some good, they obviously screwed it up.

I'd chalk it up to the ATF being less of an investigative branch and more of an enforcement branch. I'll bet, had they brought the FBI in on it, they'd been a lot more successful.

No one could be that "incompetent"--it's like giving a guy a loaded gun so he can break into your own house.

 

[geauxtohell]

I don't know what to believe about this to be frank. Gross incompetence doesn't even come close to what occured. There was a wilful avoidance of legal protocols. That is something that can't be swept under a rug.....no matter how hard Holder tries to.

So when you have a belief on the matter. Let me know. I'll go with Occam's razor and choose the ever popular "incompetence" over a conspiracy.

They need to come clean. The cover up is always what get's people in trouble. I still see no indication that this was an assault on the second amendment or criminal conspiracy by the part of law enforcement.

They obviously intended to do some good, they obviously screwed it up.

I'd chalk it up to the ATF being less of an investigative branch and more of an enforcement branch. I'll bet, had they brought the FBI in on it, they'd been a lot more successful.

No one could be that "incompetent"--it's like giving a guy a loaded gun so he can break into your own house.

BTW, you did see that the ATF arrested several "straw men", right?

 

[geauxtohell]

I don't know what to believe about this to be frank. Gross incompetence doesn't even come close to what occured. There was a wilful avoidance of legal protocols. That is something that can't be swept under a rug.....no matter how hard Holder tries to.

So when you have a belief on the matter. Let me know. I'll go with Occam's razor and choose the ever popular "incompetence" over a conspiracy.

They need to come clean. The cover up is always what get's people in trouble. I still see no indication that this was an assault on the second amendment or criminal conspiracy by the part of law enforcement.

They obviously intended to do some good, they obviously screwed it up.

I'd chalk it up to the ATF being less of an investigative branch and more of an enforcement branch. I'll bet, had they brought the FBI in on it, they'd been a lot more successful.

No one could be that "incompetent"--it's like giving a guy a loaded gun so he can break into your own house.

Really?

You want to put a limit on the possibility of governmental incompetence? Were you sleeping during the Bush years?

Again, none of this auto-elevates the a "grand conspiracy".

 

[westwall]

Operation Fast And Furious: The Straw Buyers | FoxNews.com

If they didn't maintain a proper chain of evidence (I don't need to look it up, it's evident), then I can only assume it was due to gross incompetence.

It's not illegal to be incompetent. It just shouldn't be tolerated.

What's your theory?

I mean, in the end that's what it is going to come down too. what you believe versus what I believe.

I don't know what to believe about this to be frank. Gross incompetence doesn't even come close to what occured. There was a wilful avoidance of legal protocols. That is something that can't be swept under a rug.....no matter how hard Holder tries to.

So when you have a belief on the matter. Let me know. I'll go with Occam's razor and choose the ever popular "incompetence" over a conspiracy.

They need to come clean. The cover up is always what get's people in trouble. I still see no indication that this was an assault on the second amendment or criminal conspiracy by the part of law enforcement.

They obviously intended to do some good, they obviously screwed it up.

I'd chalk it up to the ATF being less of an investigative branch and more of an enforcement branch. I'll bet, had they brought the FBI in on it, they'd been a lot more successful.

What "good" were they intending? I see no possible "good" outcome by funneling weapons into the hands of murderers. When you can come up with a possible "good" they were hoping to accomplish by all means do so. I am a firm follower of Mr. Occam. So according to Occam what possible outcome could they possibly have been hoping for?

 

[westwall]

So when you have a belief on the matter. Let me know. I'll go with Occam's razor and choose the ever popular "incompetence" over a conspiracy.

They need to come clean. The cover up is always what get's people in trouble. I still see no indication that this was an assault on the second amendment or criminal conspiracy by the part of law enforcement.

They obviously intended to do some good, they obviously screwed it up.

I'd chalk it up to the ATF being less of an investigative branch and more of an enforcement branch. I'll bet, had they brought the FBI in on it, they'd been a lot more successful.

No one could be that "incompetent"--it's like giving a guy a loaded gun so he can break into your own house.

Really?

You want to put a limit on the possibility of governmental incompetence? Were you sleeping during the Bush years?

Again, none of this auto-elevates the a "grand conspiracy".

This brings new meaning to the term "felony stupid".

 

[clevergirl]

Operation Fast And Furious: The Straw Buyers | FoxNews.com

If they didn't maintain a proper chain of evidence (I don't need to look it up, it's evident), then I can only assume it was due to gross incompetence.

It's not illegal to be incompetent. It just shouldn't be tolerated.

What's your theory?

I mean, in the end that's what it is going to come down too. what you believe versus what I believe.

I don't know what to believe about this to be frank. Gross incompetence doesn't even come close to what occured. There was a wilful avoidance of legal protocols. That is something that can't be swept under a rug.....no matter how hard Holder tries to.

So when you have a belief on the matter. Let me know. I'll go with Occam's razor and choose the ever popular "incompetence" over a conspiracy.

They need to come clean. The cover up is always what get's people in trouble. I still see no indication that this was an assault on the second amendment or criminal conspiracy by the part of law enforcement.

They obviously intended to do some good, they obviously screwed it up.

I'd chalk it up to the ATF being less of an investigative branch and more of an enforcement branch. I'll bet, had they brought the FBI in on it, they'd been a lot more successful.

The apologists just don't quit- 'eh there?

Melson revealed the scope of Operation Fast and Furious reaches far beyond ATF and the Justice Department. He said the FBI, DEA (Drug Enforcement Administration) and other agencies were heavily involved.

link