F35 - superfighter or lame duck?

[westwall]

The troops on the ground love the A-10. The top brass hate it. Guess who I'm going to listen to.

The troops love whoever drops the JDAM on the bad guys over the ridge, and most of the time it isn't an A-10.

The troops actually doing the fighting, not the assholes who get a nice kickback, and a comfy job in the defense industry after they've retired.

Those "assholes" usually clocked their time in combat as well, I'm baffled at your bizarre hatred for people with successful military careers.

Current theater commander is General Nicholson, he has a bronze star with "V" from combat. I forget the name of the top USAF out there but if it's still same one I read about he's decorated F-15 combat pilot. Those guy put their lives on the line during their career same as the grunts, yet you disparage them for the sin of rising up through the ranks.

What have you done Westwall?

A Bronze Star with a V is fine medal. Look up Hub Zemke some day. He was a good friend of mine. I learned my healthy distaste for the brass from him.

https://www.amazon.com/Zemkes-Wolf-Pack-Hub-Zemke/dp/051757330X&tag=ff0d01-20?tag=usmb-20

 

[westwall]

Irrelevant. When I start criticizing others with combat experience just because they made rank I'll be sure to PM you my resume.

You made it relevant by asking for my bonafides. That's how the real world works.

 

[williepete]

Irrelevant. When I start criticizing others with combat experience just because they made rank I'll be sure to PM you my resume.

Cool. No biggie. Just trying to get a feel for your background. You seem to be quite passionate about CAS. It's a subject I'm interested in. Dabbled in it on the ground and in the air. An interesting subject as we enter this new higher tech capability in supporting the grunts.

EDIT: Don't get the making rank part of the conversation. The USAF was rarely good at picking who to promote. Their blind pigs found an acorn every now and then but that was more exception than the rule. The good sticks got sick of the chicken shit and got out to where the money was flying airline or corporate.

 

[DrainBamage]

EDIT: Don't get the making rank part of the conversation.

I don't either. There are good officers and shitty officers, but WestWall painting with such a broad brush calling anyone with a star on their soldier an "asshole" is pretty juvenile.

 

[westwall]

EDIT: Don't get the making rank part of the conversation.

I don't either. There are good officers and shitty officers, but WestWall painting with such a broad brush calling anyone with a star on their soldier an "asshole" is pretty juvenile.

It comes from long experience with the type. I have known two Generals that I truly respected. Bill Strand and Robin Olds. I am sure there were many others but I never met them. Met lots of idiots though.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

EDIT: Don't get the making rank part of the conversation.

I don't either. There are good officers and shitty officers, but WestWall painting with such a broad brush calling anyone with a star on their soldier an "asshole" is pretty juvenile.

It comes from long experience with the type. I have known two Generals that I truly respected. Bill Strand and Robin Olds. I am sure there were many others but I never met them. Met lots of idiots though.

Either you are just name dropping or you are lying. Either way, in order to clear this up you need to drop some REAL bonafides and not just drop names.

What was YOUR rank in the USAF? Not someone elses that you are name dropping.

Your most important Duty Stations and jobs. Not someone elses that you are name dropping.

You want to claim to be an expert? Here is your chance to prove it.

AS for me, I will freely admit that most of my Military was Administrative and watched the action AFTER it happened but planned for it to happen before. Nothing glamorous about it. WE all can't be heroes. I had my chance to be a hero and turned it down. Real Heroes are born not made. I won't go any further than that.

But it's about time to hear about your real story. Mine is quite boring.

 

[westwall]

EDIT: Don't get the making rank part of the conversation.

I don't either. There are good officers and shitty officers, but WestWall painting with such a broad brush calling anyone with a star on their soldier an "asshole" is pretty juvenile.

It comes from long experience with the type. I have known two Generals that I truly respected. Bill Strand and Robin Olds. I am sure there were many others but I never met them. Met lots of idiots though.

Either you are just name dropping or you are lying. Either way, in order to clear this up you need to drop some REAL bonafides and not just drop names.

What was YOUR rank in the USAF? Not someone elses that you are name dropping.

Your most important Duty Stations and jobs. Not someone elses that you are name dropping.

You want to claim to be an expert? Here is your chance to prove it.

AS for me, I will freely admit that most of my Military was Administrative and watched the action AFTER it happened but planned for it to happen before. Nothing glamorous about it. WE all can't be heroes. I had my chance to be a hero and turned it down. Real Heroes are born not made. I won't go any further than that.

But it's about time to hear about your real story. Mine is quite boring.

I met and was friendly with Robin through Hub who Robin feels saved his life during WWII. I met Bill (who sadly passed away just a little over a year ago, he is buried at the Churchill County Cemetery in Fallon) over 35 years ago when he was the CO at Nellis. And I was introduced to him by Robin. Bill lived just a few miles from me down in Minden.

I'm not military. Never claimed I was. But I worked with the USAF at Wheelus on multiple occasions and spent many a night up at Stead when Zemke was the CO there. He and I were friends for over 20 years and his son and I are still friends, I'm only a few years older than Hub Jr.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

EDIT: Don't get the making rank part of the conversation.

I don't either. There are good officers and shitty officers, but WestWall painting with such a broad brush calling anyone with a star on their soldier an "asshole" is pretty juvenile.

It comes from long experience with the type. I have known two Generals that I truly respected. Bill Strand and Robin Olds. I am sure there were many others but I never met them. Met lots of idiots though.

Either you are just name dropping or you are lying. Either way, in order to clear this up you need to drop some REAL bonafides and not just drop names.

What was YOUR rank in the USAF? Not someone elses that you are name dropping.

Your most important Duty Stations and jobs. Not someone elses that you are name dropping.

You want to claim to be an expert? Here is your chance to prove it.

AS for me, I will freely admit that most of my Military was Administrative and watched the action AFTER it happened but planned for it to happen before. Nothing glamorous about it. WE all can't be heroes. I had my chance to be a hero and turned it down. Real Heroes are born not made. I won't go any further than that.

But it's about time to hear about your real story. Mine is quite boring.

I met and was friendly with Robin through Hub who Robin feels saved his life during WWII. I met Bill (who sadly passed away just a little over a year ago, he is buried at the Churchill County Cemetery in Fallon) over 35 years ago when he was the CO at Nellis. And I was introduced to him by Robin. Bill lived just a few miles from me down in Minden.

I'm not military. Never claimed I was. But I worked with the USAF at Wheelus on multiple occasions and spent many a night up at Stead when Zemke was the CO there. He and I were friends for over 20 years and his son and I are still friends, I'm only a few years older than Hub Jr.

So you stayed in a Motel 6 near an AF base. Makes you an expert.

 

[westwall]

EDIT: Don't get the making rank part of the conversation.

I don't either. There are good officers and shitty officers, but WestWall painting with such a broad brush calling anyone with a star on their soldier an "asshole" is pretty juvenile.

It comes from long experience with the type. I have known two Generals that I truly respected. Bill Strand and Robin Olds. I am sure there were many others but I never met them. Met lots of idiots though.

Either you are just name dropping or you are lying. Either way, in order to clear this up you need to drop some REAL bonafides and not just drop names.

What was YOUR rank in the USAF? Not someone elses that you are name dropping.

Your most important Duty Stations and jobs. Not someone elses that you are name dropping.

You want to claim to be an expert? Here is your chance to prove it.

AS for me, I will freely admit that most of my Military was Administrative and watched the action AFTER it happened but planned for it to happen before. Nothing glamorous about it. WE all can't be heroes. I had my chance to be a hero and turned it down. Real Heroes are born not made. I won't go any further than that.

But it's about time to hear about your real story. Mine is quite boring.

I met and was friendly with Robin through Hub who Robin feels saved his life during WWII. I met Bill (who sadly passed away just a little over a year ago, he is buried at the Churchill County Cemetery in Fallon) over 35 years ago when he was the CO at Nellis. And I was introduced to him by Robin. Bill lived just a few miles from me down in Minden.

I'm not military. Never claimed I was. But I worked with the USAF at Wheelus on multiple occasions and spent many a night up at Stead when Zemke was the CO there. He and I were friends for over 20 years and his son and I are still friends, I'm only a few years older than Hub Jr.

So you stayed in a Motel 6 near an AF base. Makes you an expert.

If that's the best you can come up with you had best go home junior. I never claimed to be an expert. There are many people far more informed than I. I have never denied that. However, this OP is a discussion about whether the F-35 is too costly for what it delivers. It is my opinion that it is. I have worked on many AF bases over my career, including Vandenberg when I was part of the LANDSAT cadre. I have interacted with many levels of AF brass. Most were capable bureaucrats, but they were more motivated by their own self interest than they were interested in caring for their troops.

That is my personal experience. I never claimed it was true throughout the service.

 

[williepete]

Most were capable bureaucrats, but they were more motivated by their own self interest than they were interested in caring for their troops.

Getting off topic here but this is near and dear to my heart. The USAF eats its young and drives off the best talent. The Machiavellian types get the lay of the land early and start early at feathering their own nest at the expense of everyone else. The dedicated, mission oriented team players figure out late what is going on. They tend to leave and take their talents with them. What is left is a hierarchy that promotes more of the same. A true pity. I'm still in contact with active duty USAF pilots. Same old story but a bit lower morale given the last 8 years. The tragedy has always been that it would be so easy to have great morale which equals great performance.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

I don't either. There are good officers and shitty officers, but WestWall painting with such a broad brush calling anyone with a star on their soldier an "asshole" is pretty juvenile.

It comes from long experience with the type. I have known two Generals that I truly respected. Bill Strand and Robin Olds. I am sure there were many others but I never met them. Met lots of idiots though.

Either you are just name dropping or you are lying. Either way, in order to clear this up you need to drop some REAL bonafides and not just drop names.

What was YOUR rank in the USAF? Not someone elses that you are name dropping.

Your most important Duty Stations and jobs. Not someone elses that you are name dropping.

You want to claim to be an expert? Here is your chance to prove it.

AS for me, I will freely admit that most of my Military was Administrative and watched the action AFTER it happened but planned for it to happen before. Nothing glamorous about it. WE all can't be heroes. I had my chance to be a hero and turned it down. Real Heroes are born not made. I won't go any further than that.

But it's about time to hear about your real story. Mine is quite boring.

I met and was friendly with Robin through Hub who Robin feels saved his life during WWII. I met Bill (who sadly passed away just a little over a year ago, he is buried at the Churchill County Cemetery in Fallon) over 35 years ago when he was the CO at Nellis. And I was introduced to him by Robin. Bill lived just a few miles from me down in Minden.

I'm not military. Never claimed I was. But I worked with the USAF at Wheelus on multiple occasions and spent many a night up at Stead when Zemke was the CO there. He and I were friends for over 20 years and his son and I are still friends, I'm only a few years older than Hub Jr.

So you stayed in a Motel 6 near an AF base. Makes you an expert.

If that's the best you can come up with you had best go home junior. I never claimed to be an expert. There are many people far more informed than I. I have never denied that. However, this OP is a discussion about whether the F-35 is too costly for what it delivers. It is my opinion that it is. I have worked on many AF bases over my career, including Vandenberg when I was part of the LANDSAT cadre. I have interacted with many levels of AF brass. Most were capable bureaucrats, but they were more motivated by their own self interest than they were interested in caring for their troops.

That is my personal experience. I never claimed it was true throughout the service.

Junior? Why thank you for the compliment. I have served under Tac Airlift (showing my age a bit), TAC, MAC, AAC (it used to stand for Antique Aircraft Command in my day), 8th AF, USAFE, and more. I didn't "KNOW" some of the greats, I served with them. And I have never spent a single night in Motel 6.

Does that make me an expert? I was part of the advance that ushered in the brand new F-15A to the first forward operational base. I am well aware of the problems of a new Weapons System. I was sent TDY to help the first forward operational F-16. I have first hand knowledge about what it takes to get a weapons system operational. Our F-15As had a 33% generation record. We found that unacceptable. But the AF said it was good since even Nellis couldn't get that high of a generation on the birds. It wasn't until the early 80s that the F-15A started working towards it's over 70% rate. It wasn't really our fault, it was our problem. They tied everything through the Radar. You lose Radar and you had a single seat grocery getter. The new radar taken from the new C model allowed the guns to be seperate and it released the Aim-9s from it as well. WE were in bad need of better engines. That was cured in the C model. Yes, it took about 10 years to get the F-15 up to speed and then it ruled for the next 30 years.

I suspect that the F-35A is going through the same thing. It went operational last year. Give it the next 5 for ironing out and it's time frame will be about what the F-15 was. You are demanding way too much from a new weapons system. Remember, I have been there, you haven't. And I still haven't spent one single night in a Motel 6.

 

[westwall]

Most were capable bureaucrats, but they were more motivated by their own self interest than they were interested in caring for their troops.

Getting off topic here but this is near and dear to my heart. The USAF eats its young and drives off the best talent. The Machiavellian types get the lay of the land early and start early at feathering their own nest at the expense of everyone else. The dedicated, mission oriented team players figure out late what is going on. They tend to leave and take their talents with them. What is left is a hierarchy that promotes more of the same. A true pity. I'm still in contact with active duty USAF pilots. Same old story but a bit lower morale given the last 8 years. The tragedy has always been that it would be so easy to have great morale which equals great performance.

Absolutely correct. The last eight years have been a disaster for the USAF. Hub Jr. still gives talks at the Academy and he is dismayed at how the leadership there has collapsed. He truly feels that obama was trying to destroy that institution.

 

[westwall]

It comes from long experience with the type. I have known two Generals that I truly respected. Bill Strand and Robin Olds. I am sure there were many others but I never met them. Met lots of idiots though.

Either you are just name dropping or you are lying. Either way, in order to clear this up you need to drop some REAL bonafides and not just drop names.

What was YOUR rank in the USAF? Not someone elses that you are name dropping.

Your most important Duty Stations and jobs. Not someone elses that you are name dropping.

You want to claim to be an expert? Here is your chance to prove it.

AS for me, I will freely admit that most of my Military was Administrative and watched the action AFTER it happened but planned for it to happen before. Nothing glamorous about it. WE all can't be heroes. I had my chance to be a hero and turned it down. Real Heroes are born not made. I won't go any further than that.

But it's about time to hear about your real story. Mine is quite boring.

I met and was friendly with Robin through Hub who Robin feels saved his life during WWII. I met Bill (who sadly passed away just a little over a year ago, he is buried at the Churchill County Cemetery in Fallon) over 35 years ago when he was the CO at Nellis. And I was introduced to him by Robin. Bill lived just a few miles from me down in Minden.

I'm not military. Never claimed I was. But I worked with the USAF at Wheelus on multiple occasions and spent many a night up at Stead when Zemke was the CO there. He and I were friends for over 20 years and his son and I are still friends, I'm only a few years older than Hub Jr.

So you stayed in a Motel 6 near an AF base. Makes you an expert.

If that's the best you can come up with you had best go home junior. I never claimed to be an expert. There are many people far more informed than I. I have never denied that. However, this OP is a discussion about whether the F-35 is too costly for what it delivers. It is my opinion that it is. I have worked on many AF bases over my career, including Vandenberg when I was part of the LANDSAT cadre. I have interacted with many levels of AF brass. Most were capable bureaucrats, but they were more motivated by their own self interest than they were interested in caring for their troops.

That is my personal experience. I never claimed it was true throughout the service.

Junior? Why thank you for the compliment. I have served under Tac Airlift (showing my age a bit), TAC, MAC, AAC (it used to stand for Antique Aircraft Command in my day), 8th AF, USAFE, and more. I didn't "KNOW" some of the greats, I served with them. And I have never spent a single night in Motel 6.

Does that make me an expert? I was part of the advance that ushered in the brand new F-15A to the first forward operational base. I am well aware of the problems of a new Weapons System. I was sent TDY to help the first forward operational F-16. I have first hand knowledge about what it takes to get a weapons system operational. Our F-15As had a 33% generation record. We found that unacceptable. But the AF said it was good since even Nellis couldn't get that high of a generation on the birds. It wasn't until the early 80s that the F-15A started working towards it's over 70% rate. It wasn't really our fault, it was our problem. They tied everything through the Radar. You lose Radar and you had a single seat grocery getter. The new radar taken from the new C model allowed the guns to be seperate and it released the Aim-9s from it as well. WE were in bad need of better engines. That was cured in the C model. Yes, it took about 10 years to get the F-15 up to speed and then it ruled for the next 30 years.

I suspect that the F-35A is going through the same thing. It went operational last year. Give it the next 5 for ironing out and it's time frame will be about what the F-15 was. You are demanding way too much from a new weapons system. Remember, I have been there, you haven't. And I still haven't spent one single night in a Motel 6.

Yeah. Great. You were a staff wonk. Congrats. I have spent many a night at a Motel 6. In some places I have been that was the absolute best available. I would hazard a guess that I have had more bullets shot at me than you as well. Doesn't make me an expert gunfighter but I'm better at it than you as I have actually seen the elephant while by your own admission you ran away from the critter.

Do you fly? I do. I would hazard a guess that willipete does too based on his verbiage. Now, if you want to keep your tiny dick out of this discussion I am happy to accommodate you in a discussion of the facts. But a staff wonk has as much practical experience at warfighting as my daughter does.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Either you are just name dropping or you are lying. Either way, in order to clear this up you need to drop some REAL bonafides and not just drop names.

What was YOUR rank in the USAF? Not someone elses that you are name dropping.

Your most important Duty Stations and jobs. Not someone elses that you are name dropping.

You want to claim to be an expert? Here is your chance to prove it.

AS for me, I will freely admit that most of my Military was Administrative and watched the action AFTER it happened but planned for it to happen before. Nothing glamorous about it. WE all can't be heroes. I had my chance to be a hero and turned it down. Real Heroes are born not made. I won't go any further than that.

But it's about time to hear about your real story. Mine is quite boring.

I met and was friendly with Robin through Hub who Robin feels saved his life during WWII. I met Bill (who sadly passed away just a little over a year ago, he is buried at the Churchill County Cemetery in Fallon) over 35 years ago when he was the CO at Nellis. And I was introduced to him by Robin. Bill lived just a few miles from me down in Minden.

I'm not military. Never claimed I was. But I worked with the USAF at Wheelus on multiple occasions and spent many a night up at Stead when Zemke was the CO there. He and I were friends for over 20 years and his son and I are still friends, I'm only a few years older than Hub Jr.

So you stayed in a Motel 6 near an AF base. Makes you an expert.

If that's the best you can come up with you had best go home junior. I never claimed to be an expert. There are many people far more informed than I. I have never denied that. However, this OP is a discussion about whether the F-35 is too costly for what it delivers. It is my opinion that it is. I have worked on many AF bases over my career, including Vandenberg when I was part of the LANDSAT cadre. I have interacted with many levels of AF brass. Most were capable bureaucrats, but they were more motivated by their own self interest than they were interested in caring for their troops.

That is my personal experience. I never claimed it was true throughout the service.

Junior? Why thank you for the compliment. I have served under Tac Airlift (showing my age a bit), TAC, MAC, AAC (it used to stand for Antique Aircraft Command in my day), 8th AF, USAFE, and more. I didn't "KNOW" some of the greats, I served with them. And I have never spent a single night in Motel 6.

Does that make me an expert? I was part of the advance that ushered in the brand new F-15A to the first forward operational base. I am well aware of the problems of a new Weapons System. I was sent TDY to help the first forward operational F-16. I have first hand knowledge about what it takes to get a weapons system operational. Our F-15As had a 33% generation record. We found that unacceptable. But the AF said it was good since even Nellis couldn't get that high of a generation on the birds. It wasn't until the early 80s that the F-15A started working towards it's over 70% rate. It wasn't really our fault, it was our problem. They tied everything through the Radar. You lose Radar and you had a single seat grocery getter. The new radar taken from the new C model allowed the guns to be seperate and it released the Aim-9s from it as well. WE were in bad need of better engines. That was cured in the C model. Yes, it took about 10 years to get the F-15 up to speed and then it ruled for the next 30 years.

I suspect that the F-35A is going through the same thing. It went operational last year. Give it the next 5 for ironing out and it's time frame will be about what the F-15 was. You are demanding way too much from a new weapons system. Remember, I have been there, you haven't. And I still haven't spent one single night in a Motel 6.

Yeah. Great. You were a staff wonk. Congrats. I have spent many a night at a Motel 6. In some places I have been that was the absolute best available. I would hazard a guess that I have had more bullets shot at me than you as well. Doesn't make me an expert gunfighter but I'm better at it than you as I have actually seen the elephant while by your own admission you ran away from the critter.

Do you fly? I do. I would hazard a guess that willipete does too based on his verbiage. Now, if you want to keep your tiny dick out of this discussion I am happy to accommodate you in a discussion of the facts. But a staff wonk has as much practical experience at warfighting as my daughter does.

YOu need a better neighborhood if you are shot so many times. Or move to one where they are poorer shots.

And that must be one bad Daughter you have. Is she as opinionated as you are and just make up crap as she goes?

 

[westwall]

I met and was friendly with Robin through Hub who Robin feels saved his life during WWII. I met Bill (who sadly passed away just a little over a year ago, he is buried at the Churchill County Cemetery in Fallon) over 35 years ago when he was the CO at Nellis. And I was introduced to him by Robin. Bill lived just a few miles from me down in Minden.

I'm not military. Never claimed I was. But I worked with the USAF at Wheelus on multiple occasions and spent many a night up at Stead when Zemke was the CO there. He and I were friends for over 20 years and his son and I are still friends, I'm only a few years older than Hub Jr.

So you stayed in a Motel 6 near an AF base. Makes you an expert.

If that's the best you can come up with you had best go home junior. I never claimed to be an expert. There are many people far more informed than I. I have never denied that. However, this OP is a discussion about whether the F-35 is too costly for what it delivers. It is my opinion that it is. I have worked on many AF bases over my career, including Vandenberg when I was part of the LANDSAT cadre. I have interacted with many levels of AF brass. Most were capable bureaucrats, but they were more motivated by their own self interest than they were interested in caring for their troops.

That is my personal experience. I never claimed it was true throughout the service.

Junior? Why thank you for the compliment. I have served under Tac Airlift (showing my age a bit), TAC, MAC, AAC (it used to stand for Antique Aircraft Command in my day), 8th AF, USAFE, and more. I didn't "KNOW" some of the greats, I served with them. And I have never spent a single night in Motel 6.

Does that make me an expert? I was part of the advance that ushered in the brand new F-15A to the first forward operational base. I am well aware of the problems of a new Weapons System. I was sent TDY to help the first forward operational F-16. I have first hand knowledge about what it takes to get a weapons system operational. Our F-15As had a 33% generation record. We found that unacceptable. But the AF said it was good since even Nellis couldn't get that high of a generation on the birds. It wasn't until the early 80s that the F-15A started working towards it's over 70% rate. It wasn't really our fault, it was our problem. They tied everything through the Radar. You lose Radar and you had a single seat grocery getter. The new radar taken from the new C model allowed the guns to be seperate and it released the Aim-9s from it as well. WE were in bad need of better engines. That was cured in the C model. Yes, it took about 10 years to get the F-15 up to speed and then it ruled for the next 30 years.

I suspect that the F-35A is going through the same thing. It went operational last year. Give it the next 5 for ironing out and it's time frame will be about what the F-15 was. You are demanding way too much from a new weapons system. Remember, I have been there, you haven't. And I still haven't spent one single night in a Motel 6.

Yeah. Great. You were a staff wonk. Congrats. I have spent many a night at a Motel 6. In some places I have been that was the absolute best available. I would hazard a guess that I have had more bullets shot at me than you as well. Doesn't make me an expert gunfighter but I'm better at it than you as I have actually seen the elephant while by your own admission you ran away from the critter.

Do you fly? I do. I would hazard a guess that willipete does too based on his verbiage. Now, if you want to keep your tiny dick out of this discussion I am happy to accommodate you in a discussion of the facts. But a staff wonk has as much practical experience at warfighting as my daughter does.

YOu need a better neighborhood if you are shot so many times. Or move to one where they are poorer shots.

And that must be one bad Daughter you have. Is she as opinionated as you are and just make up crap as she goes?

It's part of the cost of doing business in the third world which is where most of my work was. And I'm still here so clearly their aim wasn't good enough. As far as my daughter go's she's far more competent than you at most things I would hazard. She's only 10 so has a long ways to go yet, but I figure in 10 more years she will be waaaay ahead of me and that will be just fine with me!

 

[Daryl Hunt]

So you stayed in a Motel 6 near an AF base. Makes you an expert.

If that's the best you can come up with you had best go home junior. I never claimed to be an expert. There are many people far more informed than I. I have never denied that. However, this OP is a discussion about whether the F-35 is too costly for what it delivers. It is my opinion that it is. I have worked on many AF bases over my career, including Vandenberg when I was part of the LANDSAT cadre. I have interacted with many levels of AF brass. Most were capable bureaucrats, but they were more motivated by their own self interest than they were interested in caring for their troops.

That is my personal experience. I never claimed it was true throughout the service.

Junior? Why thank you for the compliment. I have served under Tac Airlift (showing my age a bit), TAC, MAC, AAC (it used to stand for Antique Aircraft Command in my day), 8th AF, USAFE, and more. I didn't "KNOW" some of the greats, I served with them. And I have never spent a single night in Motel 6.

Does that make me an expert? I was part of the advance that ushered in the brand new F-15A to the first forward operational base. I am well aware of the problems of a new Weapons System. I was sent TDY to help the first forward operational F-16. I have first hand knowledge about what it takes to get a weapons system operational. Our F-15As had a 33% generation record. We found that unacceptable. But the AF said it was good since even Nellis couldn't get that high of a generation on the birds. It wasn't until the early 80s that the F-15A started working towards it's over 70% rate. It wasn't really our fault, it was our problem. They tied everything through the Radar. You lose Radar and you had a single seat grocery getter. The new radar taken from the new C model allowed the guns to be seperate and it released the Aim-9s from it as well. WE were in bad need of better engines. That was cured in the C model. Yes, it took about 10 years to get the F-15 up to speed and then it ruled for the next 30 years.

I suspect that the F-35A is going through the same thing. It went operational last year. Give it the next 5 for ironing out and it's time frame will be about what the F-15 was. You are demanding way too much from a new weapons system. Remember, I have been there, you haven't. And I still haven't spent one single night in a Motel 6.

Yeah. Great. You were a staff wonk. Congrats. I have spent many a night at a Motel 6. In some places I have been that was the absolute best available. I would hazard a guess that I have had more bullets shot at me than you as well. Doesn't make me an expert gunfighter but I'm better at it than you as I have actually seen the elephant while by your own admission you ran away from the critter.

Do you fly? I do. I would hazard a guess that willipete does too based on his verbiage. Now, if you want to keep your tiny dick out of this discussion I am happy to accommodate you in a discussion of the facts. But a staff wonk has as much practical experience at warfighting as my daughter does.

YOu need a better neighborhood if you are shot so many times. Or move to one where they are poorer shots.

And that must be one bad Daughter you have. Is she as opinionated as you are and just make up crap as she goes?

It's part of the cost of doing business in the third world which is where most of my work was. And I'm still here so clearly their aim wasn't good enough. As far as my daughter go's she's far more competent than you at most things I would hazard. She's only 10 so has a long ways to go yet, but I figure in 10 more years she will be waaaay ahead of me and that will be just fine with me!

Newsflash, you certainly set the bar low on this one. I have a feeling she has been your better for most of her life.

You are a fake. 3rd world countries? I guess the basement of your Mommy's is a third world country then. I was in Spain during Marco's time. I was in Poland before the breakup. I spent some time in Iran before the fall of the Shah. Lots of places. How about Columbia and Panama. You were a secrit Civilian Agent that moved around on secrit missions. That's the first sign of a phake. If you told me where you were and what you did, you would have to kill me.

I'm done with you.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Most were capable bureaucrats, but they were more motivated by their own self interest than they were interested in caring for their troops.

Getting off topic here but this is near and dear to my heart. The USAF eats its young and drives off the best talent. The Machiavellian types get the lay of the land early and start early at feathering their own nest at the expense of everyone else. The dedicated, mission oriented team players figure out late what is going on. They tend to leave and take their talents with them. What is left is a hierarchy that promotes more of the same. A true pity. I'm still in contact with active duty USAF pilots. Same old story but a bit lower morale given the last 8 years. The tragedy has always been that it would be so easy to have great morale which equals great performance.

This has been going on for decades. The way to get promoted is not to a better job. Just make sure they know that everyone else is doing a bad job.

 

[westwall]

If that's the best you can come up with you had best go home junior. I never claimed to be an expert. There are many people far more informed than I. I have never denied that. However, this OP is a discussion about whether the F-35 is too costly for what it delivers. It is my opinion that it is. I have worked on many AF bases over my career, including Vandenberg when I was part of the LANDSAT cadre. I have interacted with many levels of AF brass. Most were capable bureaucrats, but they were more motivated by their own self interest than they were interested in caring for their troops.

That is my personal experience. I never claimed it was true throughout the service.

Junior? Why thank you for the compliment. I have served under Tac Airlift (showing my age a bit), TAC, MAC, AAC (it used to stand for Antique Aircraft Command in my day), 8th AF, USAFE, and more. I didn't "KNOW" some of the greats, I served with them. And I have never spent a single night in Motel 6.

Does that make me an expert? I was part of the advance that ushered in the brand new F-15A to the first forward operational base. I am well aware of the problems of a new Weapons System. I was sent TDY to help the first forward operational F-16. I have first hand knowledge about what it takes to get a weapons system operational. Our F-15As had a 33% generation record. We found that unacceptable. But the AF said it was good since even Nellis couldn't get that high of a generation on the birds. It wasn't until the early 80s that the F-15A started working towards it's over 70% rate. It wasn't really our fault, it was our problem. They tied everything through the Radar. You lose Radar and you had a single seat grocery getter. The new radar taken from the new C model allowed the guns to be seperate and it released the Aim-9s from it as well. WE were in bad need of better engines. That was cured in the C model. Yes, it took about 10 years to get the F-15 up to speed and then it ruled for the next 30 years.

I suspect that the F-35A is going through the same thing. It went operational last year. Give it the next 5 for ironing out and it's time frame will be about what the F-15 was. You are demanding way too much from a new weapons system. Remember, I have been there, you haven't. And I still haven't spent one single night in a Motel 6.

Yeah. Great. You were a staff wonk. Congrats. I have spent many a night at a Motel 6. In some places I have been that was the absolute best available. I would hazard a guess that I have had more bullets shot at me than you as well. Doesn't make me an expert gunfighter but I'm better at it than you as I have actually seen the elephant while by your own admission you ran away from the critter.

Do you fly? I do. I would hazard a guess that willipete does too based on his verbiage. Now, if you want to keep your tiny dick out of this discussion I am happy to accommodate you in a discussion of the facts. But a staff wonk has as much practical experience at warfighting as my daughter does.

YOu need a better neighborhood if you are shot so many times. Or move to one where they are poorer shots.

And that must be one bad Daughter you have. Is she as opinionated as you are and just make up crap as she goes?

It's part of the cost of doing business in the third world which is where most of my work was. And I'm still here so clearly their aim wasn't good enough. As far as my daughter go's she's far more competent than you at most things I would hazard. She's only 10 so has a long ways to go yet, but I figure in 10 more years she will be waaaay ahead of me and that will be just fine with me!

Newsflash, you certainly set the bar low on this one. I have a feeling she has been your better for most of her life.

You are a fake. 3rd world countries? I guess the basement of your Mommy's is a third world country then. I was in Spain during Marco's time. I was in Poland before the breakup. I spent some time in Iran before the fall of the Shah. Lots of places. How about Columbia and Panama. You were a secrit Civilian Agent that moved around on secrit missions. That's the first sign of a phake. If you told me where you were and what you did, you would have to kill me.

I'm done with you.

Wrong again buckwheat. I too was in Spain when Franco was still alive. That's actually where I met Zemke amazingly enough. I met Skorzeny there as well (he and Zemke were on semi friendly terms). Somewhere I have a picture of the three of us having a drink. And no, I wasn't some super secret agent man. I was working for BP at the time and most of my work was in Africa. Then, after I had set up my own environmental cleanup company I was there cleaning up the messes that had been made by BP and Co. over the decades and the majority of that was in Africa.

See, no super secret agent man, just an oil company geologist finding oil. It says a lot about you that you couldn't even begin to think of a legit reason for someone to be travelling in those various shitholes.....it says you're not very clever.

 

[DrainBamage]

I have served under Tac Airlift (showing my age a bit), TAC, MAC, AAC (it used to stand for Antique Aircraft Command in my day), 8th AF, USAFE, and more. I was part of the advance that ushered in the brand new F-15A to the first forward operational base. I am well aware of the problems of a new Weapons System. I was sent TDY to help the first forward operational F-16. I have first hand knowledge about what it takes to get a weapons system operational. Our F-15As had a 33% generation record. We found that unacceptable. But the AF said it was good since even Nellis couldn't get that high of a generation on the birds. It wasn't until the early 80s that the F-15A started working towards it's over 70% rate. It wasn't really our fault, it was our problem. They tied everything through the Radar. You lose Radar and you had a single seat grocery getter. The new radar taken from the new C model allowed the guns to be seperate and it released the Aim-9s from it as well. WE were in bad need of better engines. That was cured in the C model. Yes, it took about 10 years to get the F-15 up to speed and then it ruled for the next 30 years.
- Daryl Hunt

I'm not military ... just an oil company geologist
- Westwalll


There appears to be a slight difference in military background here.

 

[Manonthestreet]

1/6/2017

By Jon Harper
Termination of F-35 Is ‘Within the Realm of the Possible’ - Blog