"F-35 is useless"

[Munin]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITbGBmaqQkk&feature=related]YouTube - F-35 is useless[/ame]

Another video link (if you can't open the first one) : http://poorbuthappy.com/yourthing/post/experts-say-f35-is-inferior-to-russian-and-chinese-planes/

First of all, I m not saying that I support this statement. I m just curious if there is some truth to what is said in this video.

So give me your thoughts on this.

 

[Andrew2382]

blocked at work to view it...want to summarize it?

 

[Andrew2382]

Russia Committed to Development of Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA, Fifth Generation Fighter Jet | India Defence

Moscow continues to pursue a Sukhoi-based fifth-generation fighter. After five years of effort, Russia finally found an international partner for the development project. In 2007 India entered an agreement to jointly develop a fifth-generation fighter based on the Sukhoi.

The Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA -- standing for Advanced Frontline Aviation Aircraft System -- is a stealth-enabled fighter jet designed to compete with the American Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning Joint Strike Aircraft and the Lockheed Martin/Boeing F-22 Raptor. Russian air force watchers already christened it "Raptorsky," after the F-22 Raptor, with which it is supposed to compete.

The developers describe the T-50 PAK FA as having excellent maneuverability, supersonic cruising speed, long range and high protective properties. PAK FA will have a takeoff weight of 20 tons, which falls between the takeoff weight of the two American competitor airplanes, the F-35 JSF (17.2 tons) and the F-22 (24 tons).

The new fighter -- a medium version -- will have a traditional wing form, though the dramatic-looking reverse-delta wing of the Su-47 Berkut influenced the Russian fighter's designers.

The Russian fifth-generation fighter is supposed to make its first test flight this year. The testing dates have been postponed from the end of 2008, as had been previously announced by Sergei Ivanov, the Russian deputy prime minister in charge of defense production.

Some Russian spokesmen promised deployment of the T-50 in 2013, but according to the earlier statements by Sukhoi CEO Mikhail Pogosyan, the new Russian-Indian fifth-generation fighter might enter mass production by 2015.

According to Russian sources, the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA will incorporate technology from the two experimental predecessors: the Su-47 and the MiG Project 1.44.

The flagships of the Russian aerospace technology -- Tekhnokompleks Scientific and Production Center, Ramenskoye Instrument Building Design Bureau, the Instrument Building Scientific Research Institute in Zhukovskiy, the Ural'sk Optical and Mechanical Plant in Yekaterinburg, the Polet firm in Nizhniy Novgorod and the Central Scientific Research Radio Engineering Institute in Moscow -- were selected to develop the avionics suite for the fifth-generation airplane.

NPO Saturn has been determined to lead the work on the engines. The Novosibirsk Aviation Production Association has begun construction of the fifth-generation fighter at its renowned Komsomol'sk-on-Amure Chkalov plant where most Sukhoi fighters are made.

However, considering the current economic recession and the track record of delayed deadlines, the Russian fifth-generation fighter may stay on paper for a longer time. This would give Washington and its allies sufficient time to launch mass production of F-35s, deploy them on American bases and fulfill orders from international customers such as Britain, the Netherlands and Israel.

The F-35 is expected to enter service no later than 2012, while the Russian Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA is certain to be in mass production by that time.

The future may not be bright for the next generation of the Russian fighter. Many Western defense experts believe Russia's fourth-generation fighter jets cannot withstand the U.S. stealth-enabled tandem of F-35 and F-22, which offer high maneuverability and near invisibility to surface radars because of advanced radar suppression equipment. Moreover, U.S.-based simulations and tests suggest that the stealth-enabled fifth-generation F-22 and F-35 can defeat any current aircraft, including the Raptorsky.

 

[sealybobo]

I can't see it, but let me give you my take. There is a shit load of waste burried in "defense spending", but any cuts the Dems do will give the GOP ammo to say they are weak on terrorism or anti defense.

If right wingers really want to cut spending, then they can't bitch about every F22 and F38 and all the jobs that WE PAY FOR!

Lean and mean baby!!! Unless you want to raise taxes and pay for all that shit, stfu.

 

[sitarro]

Sure, no bullshit bias here. The Russians can't even keep those big ass air show planes in the air. If they do get them in the air, they don't stay up very long. They crash them at almost every air show they demonstrate useless maneuvers at.

The comparison is also silly anyway since the F-35 is designed as a Navy fighter for use off of carriers, it's a single engine strike fighter w/ vertical takeoff and landing capabilities and stealth qualities. It would be hitting the Sukhoi from miles away with missiles, it's not a visual range fighter, the F-35 would shoot down the Sukhoi before it was seen.

Let the idiot liberal ass from Australia buy crap from Russia because he's impressed at air shows, typical liberal....... style over substance.

 

[Munin]

blocked at work to view it...want to summarize it?

I found an article about it, weird that it is about a computer simulation (the video seems to imply something else):

Joint Strike Fighters 'Clubbed' in Computer War Game

A U.S. air-warfare simulation pitting F-35 Joint Strike Fighters versus the latest Russian Su-35 heavy fighters resulted in a clear victory ... for the Russians. "The JSF had been clubbed like baby seals by the simulated Sukhois," one Australian opposition politician said, quoting a source close to the simulation.

It's not clear just how much Australian domestic politics have skewed the reporting on the exercise's results. Regardless, the sim could boost U.S. Air Force efforts to keep alive the F-35's big brother, the air-combat-optimized F-22 Raptor. The Pentagon wants to cap the F-22 at 183 planes and buy around 2,500 JSFs. The Air Force insists that it needs perhaps twice as many F-22s regardless of the JSF purchase. The F-22, the Air Force says, is an air-defender, while the JSF is designed more for carrying bombs.

The Royal Australian Air Force is slated to be an early customer in the $340-billion JSF program, which is facing small Congressional cuts this year. The F-35 has been a real hot-potato issue in Australia, a country surrounded by rapidly developing air powers, including China and India, that all fly new Sukhois. Canberra had asked the Pentagon to let it buy F-22s, but U.S. lawmakers said no. Due to delays with the F-35, Australia bought a squadron of F/A-18F Super Hornets, but is hoping to trade them in when the JSF is ready around 2015. All this fighter maneuvering has heaped fuel on an increasingly contentious Australian political scene. Basically, the current government supports the F-35/Super Hornet combo. The opposition still wants F-22s.

The Royal Australian Air Force is slated to be an early customer in the $340-billion JSF program, which is facing small Congressional cuts this year. The F-35 has been a real hot-potato issue in Australia, a country surrounded by rapidly developing air powers, including China and India, that all fly new Sukhois. Canberra had asked the Pentagon to let it buy F-22s, but U.S. lawmakers said no. Due to delays with the F-35, Australia bought a squadron of F/A-18F Super Hornets, but is hoping to trade them in when the JSF is ready around 2015. All this fighter maneuvering has heaped fuel on an increasingly contentious Australian political scene. Basically, the current government supports the F-35/Super Hornet combo. The opposition still wants F-22s.

So how reliable are these reported simulation results? "This is based on a computer game, computer modeling of the aircraft," an Aussie defense spokesman said. "This is not real life."

Even so, don't be surprised if the U.S. Air Force uses the sim when it comes time to fight for more F-22s. The Raptor factory will be open for business all through 2009, and there's even money in the current defense budget to keep the production line warm after the last batch of 60 planes is finished. Some time next year, the new presidential administration will have to decide whether to buy more Raptors or plow the money into JSFs, instead. Expect fireworks.

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/09/us-stealth-figh.html


But don't be fooled, this is not just some dumb computer game: it seems that is was a high tech simulation (like the ones that are used for flight training by professional pilots)


Other sources:

http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/news/stories/200809/s2372834.htm?tab=latest
http://www.livescience.com/technology/081107-f-35-fighter-jets.html

 

[sealybobo]

blocked at work to view it...want to summarize it?

In short:

Transcript
LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: A fighter pilot would hate to be told the aircraft he's flying can't turn, can't climb and can't run. But those are the words that have been used to describe Australia's next generation jet fighter.

A sensitive report prepared in the US by the Rand Corporation says Australia's biggest defence purchase, the joint strike fighter, will be inferior to Russian and Chinese rivals.

A former RAAF flight test engineer also claims that the Rand Report is backed up by results from a top secret war game that took place in Hawaii last month.

...

Lateline - 24/09/2008: Australian fighter jets inferior

Did anyone here think all Bush's defense spending was going towards good companies that were actually focused on staying ahead of the competition?

That's not the goal of a corporation. A corporation only cares about making profits for the CEO's.

That's maybe why defense should be handled by the government, not private corporations.

 

[sealybobo]

Sure, no bullshit bias here. The Russians can't even keep those big ass air show planes in the air. If they do get them in the air, they don't stay up very long. They crash them at almost every air show they demonstrate useless maneuvers at.

The comparison is also silly anyway since the F-35 is designed as a Navy fighter for use off of carriers, it's a single engine strike fighter w/ vertical takeoff and landing capabilities and stealth qualities. It would be hitting the Sukhoi from miles away with missiles, it's not a visual range fighter, the F-35 would shoot down the Sukhoi before it was seen.

Let the idiot liberal ass from Australia buy crap from Russia because he's impressed at air shows, typical liberal....... style over substance.

And didn't they photoshop a missle launch? Or was that IRan/n. korea. Remember that?

And I hear all those missles Russia used to show off in those parades, were all empty. LOL. Probably true.

 

[Andrew2382]

blocked at work to view it...want to summarize it?

I found an article about it, weird that it is about a computer simulation (the video seems to imply something else):

Joint Strike Fighters 'Clubbed' in Computer War Game

A U.S. air-warfare simulation pitting F-35 Joint Strike Fighters versus the latest Russian Su-35 heavy fighters resulted in a clear victory ... for the Russians. "The JSF had been clubbed like baby seals by the simulated Sukhois," one Australian opposition politician said, quoting a source close to the simulation.

It's not clear just how much Australian domestic politics have skewed the reporting on the exercise's results. Regardless, the sim could boost U.S. Air Force efforts to keep alive the F-35's big brother, the air-combat-optimized F-22 Raptor. The Pentagon wants to cap the F-22 at 183 planes and buy around 2,500 JSFs. The Air Force insists that it needs perhaps twice as many F-22s regardless of the JSF purchase. The F-22, the Air Force says, is an air-defender, while the JSF is designed more for carrying bombs.

The Royal Australian Air Force is slated to be an early customer in the $340-billion JSF program, which is facing small Congressional cuts this year. The F-35 has been a real hot-potato issue in Australia, a country surrounded by rapidly developing air powers, including China and India, that all fly new Sukhois. Canberra had asked the Pentagon to let it buy F-22s, but U.S. lawmakers said no. Due to delays with the F-35, Australia bought a squadron of F/A-18F Super Hornets, but is hoping to trade them in when the JSF is ready around 2015. All this fighter maneuvering has heaped fuel on an increasingly contentious Australian political scene. Basically, the current government supports the F-35/Super Hornet combo. The opposition still wants F-22s.

The Royal Australian Air Force is slated to be an early customer in the $340-billion JSF program, which is facing small Congressional cuts this year. The F-35 has been a real hot-potato issue in Australia, a country surrounded by rapidly developing air powers, including China and India, that all fly new Sukhois. Canberra had asked the Pentagon to let it buy F-22s, but U.S. lawmakers said no. Due to delays with the F-35, Australia bought a squadron of F/A-18F Super Hornets, but is hoping to trade them in when the JSF is ready around 2015. All this fighter maneuvering has heaped fuel on an increasingly contentious Australian political scene. Basically, the current government supports the F-35/Super Hornet combo. The opposition still wants F-22s.

So how reliable are these reported simulation results? "This is based on a computer game, computer modeling of the aircraft," an Aussie defense spokesman said. "This is not real life."

Even so, don't be surprised if the U.S. Air Force uses the sim when it comes time to fight for more F-22s. The Raptor factory will be open for business all through 2009, and there's even money in the current defense budget to keep the production line warm after the last batch of 60 planes is finished. Some time next year, the new presidential administration will have to decide whether to buy more Raptors or plow the money into JSFs, instead. Expect fireworks.

Joint Strike Fighters 'Clubbed' in Computer War Game | Danger Room from Wired.com


But don't be fooled, this is not just some dumb computer game: it seems that is was a high tech simulation (like the ones that are used for flight training by professional pilots)

I wouldnt read too much into that...what kind of simulations...the F-35 carries stealth and will blow up the SU's from 130 miles out

 

[Andrew2382]

I can't see it, but let me give you my take. There is a shit load of waste burried in "defense spending", but any cuts the Dems do will give the GOP ammo to say they are weak on terrorism or anti defense.

If right wingers really want to cut spending, then they can't bitch about every F22 and F38 and all the jobs that WE PAY FOR!

Lean and mean baby!!! Unless you want to raise taxes and pay for all that shit, stfu.

and they say lefties don't hate the military

Sealy, you need to get hit by a bus really...and it's the F35 not F38 you fucking moron

 

[Munin]

I wouldnt read too much into that...what kind of simulations...the F-35 carries stealth and will blow up the SU's from 130 miles out

That depends, if the SU's fly low then the F-35 can probably not see them (because the environment absorbs their curves from the radar), or if they fight in a mountain region then the radar will take away sight. And in a dog fight (that may occur because of the situations I just described) the pilots will be able to see the F-35 because they are up close.

Also, don't you know that these planes also have missile countermeasures? If a F-35 fires a rocket, it doesn't mean that it will destroy something.

 

[sealybobo]

I can't see it, but let me give you my take. There is a shit load of waste burried in "defense spending", but any cuts the Dems do will give the GOP ammo to say they are weak on terrorism or anti defense.

If right wingers really want to cut spending, then they can't bitch about every F22 and F38 and all the jobs that WE PAY FOR!

Lean and mean baby!!! Unless you want to raise taxes and pay for all that shit, stfu.

and they say lefties don't hate the military

Sealy, you need to get hit by a bus really...and it's the F35 not F38 you fucking moron

Well what about the F38? Should we fund that? Or would cutting funds for it be unpatriotic?

You missed my point. There's probably a lot of F22's out there that we can't afford. CUT EM!

Either that or say you want them to raise your taxes to pay for it. Or, do you want them to keep borrowing to pay for all this stuff.

Look at you guys. You want F38's but you don't want to pay for them.

Well if you don't want to pay and you don't want the top 1% to pay, who do you want to pay for them?

I can't wait for your reply.

 

[sealybobo]

I wouldnt read too much into that...what kind of simulations...the F-35 carries stealth and will blow up the SU's from 130 miles out

That depends, if the SU's fly low then the F-35 can probably not see them (because the environment absorbs their curves from the radar), or if they fight in a mountain region then the radar will take away sight. And in a dog fight (that may occur because of the situations I just described) the pilots will be able to see the F-35 because they are up close.

You know what we could do? If we insist on having this kind of stuff but can't afford it under the current costs, why don't we just outsource the work to China/India/Mexico and save a bundle?

Why do we do this with cars but won't do it with defense?

Defense is tax payer funded. This would save the tax payer a fortune.

At least people in the free market buy cars. Who besides our government buys fighter planes?

Anyways, I am thrilled this issue is being discussed. Instead of talking about the peanuts we spend on welfare, this probably adds up to Billions in lwaste.

 

[Andrew2382]

I wouldnt read too much into that...what kind of simulations...the F-35 carries stealth and will blow up the SU's from 130 miles out

That depends, if the SU's fly low then the F-35 can probably not see them (because the environment absorbs their curves from the radar), or if they fight in a mountain region then the radar will take away sight. And in a dog fight (that may occur because of the situations I just described) the pilots will be able to see the F-35 because they are up close.

yeah, well F-35 still has a lot of advantages cause the SU's won't see them either...however here si a biggey for the F35

Combat Helmet: F-35 Helmet Display System To Scare the Bejeezus Out of Enemies

This is the new helmet-mounted display system for the F-35 Lighting II Joint Strike Fighter. The helmet is designed to provide pilots with binocular-wide field-of-view, give night vision abilities and scare enemy pilots at first sight. It was used for the first time last April, making the F-35 the first combat plane without a cockpit-mounted heads-up display in a very long time.

Beyond making the pilot look like a spooky insect (comic book nerd moment: the Morpheus helmet from Neil Gaiman's Sandman comes to mind), the F-35 HDMS is loaded with all kinds of amazing goodies, like extreme off-axis targeting and head tracking "providing the pilot with unprecedented situational awareness and tactical capability." The helmet was developed by Vision Systems International, a company that has other quite weird designs that are already operational, like the DASH and the JHMCS. Technical specs and another image of the F-35 HMDS after the jump.



Basically it gives the pilot wide views of the sky and when he looks down, he can look therough the bottom of the plane and lock on a target below him or above him or to the right or left....its pretty scary shit...they plan on implementing it in the F22 as well

 

[Andrew2382]

also very cool show by the history channel

obviosuly a little biased, but not to far off of the capabilities that the F-22 and F-35 have...I suggest watching the whole thing

here's the link, it's 8 or 9 parts I think...very awesome to watch

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KpjgHYjcA4]YouTube - Future Dogfights pt 1[/ame]



just you tube

future dogfights

awesome show

 

[sealybobo]

I can't see it, but let me give you my take. There is a shit load of waste burried in "defense spending", but any cuts the Dems do will give the GOP ammo to say they are weak on terrorism or anti defense.

If right wingers really want to cut spending, then they can't bitch about every F22 and F38 and all the jobs that WE PAY FOR!

Lean and mean baby!!! Unless you want to raise taxes and pay for all that shit, stfu.

and they say lefties don't hate the military

Sealy, you need to get hit by a bus really...and it's the F35 not F38 you fucking moron

you know Dave, I think you are right....I never liked ignoring people because I like proving their stupidity like I do with Sealy over and over...however the trolling does get to a point.

You know he types what he types just to agitate people no tbecause it's what he thinks.

I may have to join you on the ignore wagon

 

[Munin]

I wouldnt read too much into that...what kind of simulations...the F-35 carries stealth and will blow up the SU's from 130 miles out

That depends, if the SU's fly low then the F-35 can probably not see them (because the environment absorbs their curves from the radar), or if they fight in a mountain region then the radar will take away sight. And in a dog fight (that may occur because of the situations I just described) the pilots will be able to see the F-35 because they are up close.

yeah, well F-35 still has a lot of advantages cause the SU's won't see them either...however here si a biggey for the F35

Combat Helmet: F-35 Helmet Display System To Scare the Bejeezus Out of Enemies

This is the new helmet-mounted display system for the F-35 Lighting II Joint Strike Fighter. The helmet is designed to provide pilots with binocular-wide field-of-view, give night vision abilities and scare enemy pilots at first sight. It was used for the first time last April, making the F-35 the first combat plane without a cockpit-mounted heads-up display in a very long time.

Beyond making the pilot look like a spooky insect (comic book nerd moment: the Morpheus helmet from Neil Gaiman's Sandman comes to mind), the F-35 HDMS is loaded with all kinds of amazing goodies, like extreme off-axis targeting and head tracking "providing the pilot with unprecedented situational awareness and tactical capability." The helmet was developed by Vision Systems International, a company that has other quite weird designs that are already operational, like the DASH and the JHMCS. Technical specs and another image of the F-35 HMDS after the jump.



Basically it gives the pilot wide views of the sky and when he looks down, he can look therough the bottom of the plane and lock on a target below him or above him or to the right or left....its pretty scary shit...they plan on implementing it in the F22 as well

That is not something new, this was something the Europeans already had with the Eurofighter:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCuG-yvc2bk]YouTube - USP 7°part Eurofighter Typhoon ENG[/ame]

 

[Godboy]

They said its was "doubly inferior in visual range combat", but that shouldnt be overly important for modern day air to air combat, because its exceptionally rare that fighters come within visual range of each other. Most fighter jets today can shoot down planes MANY miles away, much further than visual range. Air to air combat like you might find in the movie "Top Gun" no longer exists.

 

[Xenophon]

Since the 1950s Russian aircraft have been over estimated.

It's hard to be sure just how good they are and how effective this plane will be, I remember when people thought the Hornet would never fly and it became a mainstay of the US Navy.

In any case, it's a good argument for the F-22 Raptor.

 

[Munin]

This video that questions US airpower, I must say that it intrigues me how fast the Chinese have been developing their technology:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BKW7G_dIxc]YouTube - US AIR supremacy threatened by Russia and China[/ame]