Explain to us Libs, what is a living wage?

[Bern80]

I have never stated we need to be taking care of people who are lazy. There are a number of people who are doing the right things every day that are not making enough wealth to go beyond poverty
thats it, nothing else

The 'right thing' is what is subjective here though. You do the 'right thing' when you do what is necessary to make your labor marketable at a price that you can live on. Those who didn't do that didn't exactly do the 'right thing' did they? The person who majors in art history on Mom & Dad's dime and doesn't bother to acquire any marketable skills of any kind better have an in with a college, university, or major gallery that needs an 'expert' because he or she is otherwise going to be very very limited in what s/he can earn out there. When you make choices that severely limit what you are qualified to do, that is your problem. Or should be.

The government should not make it my problem.

If we go thru 600 billion in wealth in 2010 to pay for welfare, they made it our problrm

Then you cut them off of welfare. You force their hand. Neccessity is the mother of invention when people are required to do more to get by they will. You're pissed off about government giving them your money? How would you feel, if you were a business owner, if government passed the buck on to you and said you have to give these people your money.

I get wanting to reduce health care roles and not wanting money taken out of your pocket to pay for those people. But there is no moral basis or logical basis for solving that problem be creating a law that says it's an employer's responsibility to pay people enough to live on. That is not how you help people. It certainly not a conservative's solutin. You asked how we would solve that problem and I told you. You help people help themselves. If they don't want to better themselves, you cut them off. Simple as that.

 

[JRK]

Bern 80 we r still waiting
how does a corporation pay its taxes?
thats an easy one

I think you owe him an answer before he will answer yours.

You know, I don't think anyone wants to make this personal, but when you've gone back and forth over this long of a period of time, certain things start to reveal themselves. The claims you make just don't stand up to scrutiny. People who do billion dollar projects know how to string a coherent sentence together with sentence structure, grammar, punctuation and capital letters. It makes your sentences understandable and readable. Honestly, I have to read your posts 3 or 4 times even to get what I think you mean to say. That alone makes us question your claims of knowing and having experience in the running of a business and human resources. It just doesn't show. The stuff you are advocating is so far out in left field that it can't be taken seriously. Add to that your claim that you are a staunch conservative when you have we conservatives scratching our collective heads over your liberal social engineering scheme. Things just don't add up which leads people to question your truthfullness and character. You keep saying that none of us understand what you are teaching us. We fully understand what you are saying and realize that it is utopian crap with no basis in reality. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

And even if he IS actually running a business, which I agree does appear very suspect when reading what he is saying on this thread, the fact that his stated experience, if it is the real deal, is so different from all the rest of us who are or have run businesses does suggest an anomaly so pronounced it is hardly useful even for anecdotal evidence.

Young lady I do not recall claiming I run any-thing. I manage
There is a huge diffference
You are correct thet my world has composite rates of 25.00 an hour bare.

Look what is your solution to this problem? forget about what I have said, your last thread was with respect
what is your fix?

 

[Bern80]

I think you owe him an answer before he will answer yours.

You know, I don't think anyone wants to make this personal, but when you've gone back and forth over this long of a period of time, certain things start to reveal themselves. The claims you make just don't stand up to scrutiny. People who do billion dollar projects know how to string a coherent sentence together with sentence structure, grammar, punctuation and capital letters. It makes your sentences understandable and readable. Honestly, I have to read your posts 3 or 4 times even to get what I think you mean to say. That alone makes us question your claims of knowing and having experience in the running of a business and human resources. It just doesn't show. The stuff you are advocating is so far out in left field that it can't be taken seriously. Add to that your claim that you are a staunch conservative when you have we conservatives scratching our collective heads over your liberal social engineering scheme. Things just don't add up which leads people to question your truthfullness and character. You keep saying that none of us understand what you are teaching us. We fully understand what you are saying and realize that it is utopian crap with no basis in reality. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

And even if he IS actually running a business, which I agree does appear very suspect when reading what he is saying on this thread, the fact that his stated experience, if it is the real deal, is so different from all the rest of us who are or have run businesses does suggest an anomaly so pronounced it is hardly useful even for anecdotal evidence.

Is this all you have left? attack the messanger?
The debate has never been about me and what it is do for a living

If any of you dis agree with my presentation then dis agree with it. Stating that it is not the employers resp. to pay a living wage only puts the burden on the tax payer
I keep asking one simple question to bern 80 and in return I get called a liar and stupid
you know wo that reminds me of?
Micheal Moore
every lib I know when they get to a place they cannot get too resorts to attacking the messanger so the message gets lost

You still think you're arguing from a postion of conservatism don't you. You really are laughable. I have another dare for you. Start another thread. A poll thread. Simple yes or no titled, 'Is Bern80 a liberal?'. You're gonna be the only one answering yes to that one. Anyone who has been on these boards for any length time knows otherwise.

 

[Bern80]

Bern 80 we r still waiting
how does a corporation pay its taxes?
thats an easy one

I think you owe him an answer before he will answer yours.

You know, I don't think anyone wants to make this personal, but when you've gone back and forth over this long of a period of time, certain things start to reveal themselves. The claims you make just don't stand up to scrutiny. People who do billion dollar projects know how to string a coherent sentence together with sentence structure, grammar, punctuation and capital letters. It makes your sentences understandable and readable. Honestly, I have to read your posts 3 or 4 times even to get what I think you mean to say. That alone makes us question your claims of knowing and having experience in the running of a business and human resources. It just doesn't show. The stuff you are advocating is so far out in left field that it can't be taken seriously. Add to that your claim that you are a staunch conservative when you have we conservatives scratching our collective heads over your liberal social engineering scheme. Things just don't add up which leads people to question your truthfullness and character. You keep saying that none of us understand what you are teaching us. We fully understand what you are saying and realize that it is utopian crap with no basis in reality. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

I stated I estimated billion dollar projects
As far as my grammer goes and anyone taking me seriously, thats an issue that is yours, not mine
calling people a liar is the lowest form if scum that walks the face os the earth
I earned where I am in life, those who trust me do not need you or bern 80s approval

to be honest, I have grown very bored with this thread I started a long time ago

I am going tell you the same thing I tell evryone who thinks it is there place in life to attack others
Ignore me
I do not care, I have nom use for you

as far as being a conservative? I am the only one in this thread who has offerd a solution to our growing problem with wel fare and poverty

Instead of attacking people, where is your solution?

Offering a solution, any solution, does not, in of itself, make you a conservative. Yes you have offered a solution. In no way can it be defined as being rooted in conservative principles. Using government to get what want by taking it from others rather than earning it yourself is not a conservative principle. Absolving individuals of personal responsibility is not a conservative principle. Using government and taking away personal responsibility are cornerstones of your solution.

 

[JRK]

I think you owe him an answer before he will answer yours.

You know, I don't think anyone wants to make this personal, but when you've gone back and forth over this long of a period of time, certain things start to reveal themselves. The claims you make just don't stand up to scrutiny. People who do billion dollar projects know how to string a coherent sentence together with sentence structure, grammar, punctuation and capital letters. It makes your sentences understandable and readable. Honestly, I have to read your posts 3 or 4 times even to get what I think you mean to say. That alone makes us question your claims of knowing and having experience in the running of a business and human resources. It just doesn't show. The stuff you are advocating is so far out in left field that it can't be taken seriously. Add to that your claim that you are a staunch conservative when you have we conservatives scratching our collective heads over your liberal social engineering scheme. Things just don't add up which leads people to question your truthfullness and character. You keep saying that none of us understand what you are teaching us. We fully understand what you are saying and realize that it is utopian crap with no basis in reality. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

I stated I estimated billion dollar projects
As far as my grammer goes and anyone taking me seriously, thats an issue that is yours, not mine
calling people a liar is the lowest form if scum that walks the face os the earth
I earned where I am in life, those who trust me do not need you or bern 80s approval

to be honest, I have grown very bored with this thread I started a long time ago

I am going tell you the same thing I tell evryone who thinks it is there place in life to attack others
Ignore me
I do not care, I have nom use for you

as far as being a conservative? I am the only one in this thread who has offerd a solution to our growing problem with wel fare and poverty

Instead of attacking people, where is your solution?

Offering a solution, any solution, does not, in of itself, make you a conservative. Yes you have offered a solution. In no way can it be defined as being rooted in conservative principles. Using government to get what want by taking it from others rather than earning it yourself is not a conservative principle. Absolving individuals of personal responsibility is not a conservative principle. Using government and taking away personal responsibility are cornerstones of your solution.

what is your solution?
The Us govt has set a poverty level
US govt has set a minimum wage
The US govt has set corporate and personal tax rates
We, the consumer pay all taxes, at the end of the day calling people a liar and stupid fixes nothing, no more than claiming responsablity has something to do with grossing 300.00 a week doing a honest days work
I never once stated we should be giving anyting to anybody

you claimed it would end the free market, I rebutted that Davis Bacon did not end it, your reply was I was a liar, I was stupid

In time you will admit that you have been taught the art of debate, because thats all this was. It does not matter who is right
its not changing
and next year the tax payer will put out over 1 trillion dollars to support those who are not getting paid enough to support them selves

 

[kwc57]

Bern 80 we r still waiting
how does a corporation pay its taxes?
thats an easy one

I think you owe him an answer before he will answer yours.

You know, I don't think anyone wants to make this personal, but when you've gone back and forth over this long of a period of time, certain things start to reveal themselves. The claims you make just don't stand up to scrutiny. People who do billion dollar projects know how to string a coherent sentence together with sentence structure, grammar, punctuation and capital letters. It makes your sentences understandable and readable. Honestly, I have to read your posts 3 or 4 times even to get what I think you mean to say. That alone makes us question your claims of knowing and having experience in the running of a business and human resources. It just doesn't show. The stuff you are advocating is so far out in left field that it can't be taken seriously. Add to that your claim that you are a staunch conservative when you have we conservatives scratching our collective heads over your liberal social engineering scheme. Things just don't add up which leads people to question your truthfullness and character. You keep saying that none of us understand what you are teaching us. We fully understand what you are saying and realize that it is utopian crap with no basis in reality. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

I stated I estimated billion dollar projects
As far as my grammer goes and anyone taking me seriously, thats an issue that is yours, not mine
calling people a liar is the lowest form if scum that walks the face os the earth
I earned where I am in life, those who trust me do not need you or bern 80s approval

to be honest, I have grown very bored with this thread I started a long time ago

I am going tell you the same thing I tell evryone who thinks it is there place in life to attack others
Ignore me
I do not care, I have nom use for you

as far as being a conservative? I am the only one in this thread who has offerd a solution to our growing problem with wel fare and poverty

Instead of attacking people, where is your solution?

Actually, your grammar is YOUR issue as it is arepresentation of you and it does call your abilities and claims into question. You say you estimate billion dollar projects. I would assume that requires a written form of communication. While I might not fire you, you certainly wouldn't be writing estimates for me or to a customer given your lack of communication skills.

Calling someone a liar isn't the lowest form of scum. Being a liar is. Calling someone a liar if they are, is calling a spade a spade.

I don't ignore people on message boards. My skin is far too thick for that.

Your "solution" is not conservative or free market. It is a damned government mandate. Legislation that tells an employer how to run their business. We already have too much of that.

Conservative solutions have been provided to you repeatedly, but you dismiss them. Tax dollars should not be given to lazy people. People who are mentally or physically challenged and can't help themselves, yes. But as bern has said, take their crutch away and let them walk. That solves part of the taxes you are paying and how the government wastes it. The other answer is expecting people to take personal responsibility for their actions and getting the education they need to get ahead. This is still the land of opportunity. Everyone has a fair shot at doing and being anything they want. Community college costs less than a sate university does and a state university costs less than an ivy league school. Trade schools and vo-techs are reasonable. Scholarships are available for those who can't afford the costs. If people do not avail themselves of the opportunities out there, they have no one to blame but themselves if they can't make a living wage. It is there responsibility to provide that for themselves, not the government of their employer.

 

[kwc57]

I stated I estimated billion dollar projects
As far as my grammer goes and anyone taking me seriously, thats an issue that is yours, not mine
calling people a liar is the lowest form if scum that walks the face os the earth
I earned where I am in life, those who trust me do not need you or bern 80s approval

to be honest, I have grown very bored with this thread I started a long time ago

I am going tell you the same thing I tell evryone who thinks it is there place in life to attack others
Ignore me
I do not care, I have nom use for you

as far as being a conservative? I am the only one in this thread who has offerd a solution to our growing problem with wel fare and poverty

Instead of attacking people, where is your solution?

Offering a solution, any solution, does not, in of itself, make you a conservative. Yes you have offered a solution. In no way can it be defined as being rooted in conservative principles. Using government to get what want by taking it from others rather than earning it yourself is not a conservative principle. Absolving individuals of personal responsibility is not a conservative principle. Using government and taking away personal responsibility are cornerstones of your solution.

what is your solution?
The Us govt has set a poverty level
US govt has set a minimum wage
The US govt has set corporate and personal tax rates
We, the consumer pay all taxes, at the end of the day calling people a liar and stupid fixes nothing, no more than claiming responsablity has something to do with grossing 300.00 a week doing a honest days work
I never once stated we should be giving anyting to anybody

you claimed it would end the free market, I rebutted that Davis Bacon did not end it, your reply was I was a liar, I was stupid

In time you will admit that you have been taught the art of debate, because thats all this was. It does not matter who is right
its not changing
and next year the tax payer will put out over 1 trillion dollars to support those who are not getting paid enough to support them selves

 

[JRK]

I think you owe him an answer before he will answer yours.

You know, I don't think anyone wants to make this personal, but when you've gone back and forth over this long of a period of time, certain things start to reveal themselves. The claims you make just don't stand up to scrutiny. People who do billion dollar projects know how to string a coherent sentence together with sentence structure, grammar, punctuation and capital letters. It makes your sentences understandable and readable. Honestly, I have to read your posts 3 or 4 times even to get what I think you mean to say. That alone makes us question your claims of knowing and having experience in the running of a business and human resources. It just doesn't show. The stuff you are advocating is so far out in left field that it can't be taken seriously. Add to that your claim that you are a staunch conservative when you have we conservatives scratching our collective heads over your liberal social engineering scheme. Things just don't add up which leads people to question your truthfullness and character. You keep saying that none of us understand what you are teaching us. We fully understand what you are saying and realize that it is utopian crap with no basis in reality. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

I stated I estimated billion dollar projects
As far as my grammer goes and anyone taking me seriously, thats an issue that is yours, not mine
calling people a liar is the lowest form if scum that walks the face os the earth
I earned where I am in life, those who trust me do not need you or bern 80s approval

to be honest, I have grown very bored with this thread I started a long time ago

I am going tell you the same thing I tell evryone who thinks it is there place in life to attack others
Ignore me
I do not care, I have nom use for you

as far as being a conservative? I am the only one in this thread who has offerd a solution to our growing problem with wel fare and poverty

Instead of attacking people, where is your solution?

Actually, your grammar is YOUR issue as it is arepresentation of you and it does call your abilities and claims into question. You say you estimate billion dollar projects. I would assume that requires a written form of communication. While I might not fire you, you certainly wouldn't be writing estimates for me or to a customer given your lack of communication skills.

Calling someone a liar isn't the lowest form of scum. Being a liar is. Calling someone a liar if they are, is calling a spade a spade.

I don't ignore people on message boards. My skin is far too thick for that.

Your "solution" is not conservative or free market. It is a damned government mandate. Legislation that tells an employer how to run their business. We already have too much of that.

Conservative solutions have been provided to you repeatedly, but you dismiss them. Tax dollars should not be given to lazy people. People who are mentally or physically challenged and can't help themselves, yes. But as bern has said, take their crutch away and let them walk. That solves part of the taxes you are paying and how the government wastes it. The other answer is expecting people to take personal responsibility for their actions and getting the education they need to get ahead. This is still the land of opportunity. Everyone has a fair shot at doing and being anything they want. Community college costs less than a sate university does and a state university costs less than an ivy league school. Trade schools and vo-techs are reasonable. Scholarships are available for those who can't afford the costs. If people do not avail themselves of the opportunities out there, they have no one to blame but themselves if they can't make a living wage. It is there responsibility to provide that for themselves, not the government of their employer.

To start with calling someone you nothing about a liar is being a scum bag
My grammer is not a requirement to care for the people I care for, writing in these format is no different than texting
You guys keep making this about everything I have not made it about. At no time did I say the word give
The county I call home pays there employees less than 10.00 an hour. That is what I am talking about
The people I know in the private secotr framing houses are making 10.00 an hour. Thats what I am talking about
Besides, as I stated before it is not going to change. As was posted earlier, all I have asked for was the minimum wage to equal inflation over the last 30 years (that was posted by others)

Look guys, do not think being a conservative means all things govt does is evil. If it was we would be in a world of anarchy

And to think a corporation oews the tax payer nothing is just plain stupid, It owes him the same chance to succed that all of those things the tax payer has provided for that corporation to succed does

What gives both of you away is your in ability to accept corporations do not pay taxes, there success in part comes from there in ability to pay a wage that would not be considered a living wage. we pivk it up for them

Being mature brings with it the ability to agree to dis agree. By the way not every-one with an education means they are making more than minimum wage nor does it mean those jobs that pay 8.00 an hour will go away.

At the end of the day calling me a liar just because we dis agree or claiming I am not a conservative because I Offer a real solution to a very real problem is just childish. You want lower Taxes? You want free market solutions to problems the free market is a part of?

what else is there?

I also am having a hard time understanding where it is you get the idea Burger King has an issue with this?
Its really not that big of a deal to them, what is, is there tax rate that we pay for. that cost is passed on to us. It would be no different if the minimum wage was 13.00 an hour except your creating wealth, not destroying it

What if the corporate tax rate went down 10% in trade for the Minimum wage going to 13.00 an hour?
If you trim 300 billion from the amount we pay out in well fare every year and pass that savings on to the tax payer, is that not a free market solution?

Are you not creating welath instead of destroying it? stop attacking for one minute and making slanderous accusations and think about what I am saying. There is no need to agree, but do not go thru life attacking those you dis agree with, it speaks volumes about you as a person

 

[JRK]

Offering a solution, any solution, does not, in of itself, make you a conservative. Yes you have offered a solution. In no way can it be defined as being rooted in conservative principles. Using government to get what want by taking it from others rather than earning it yourself is not a conservative principle. Absolving individuals of personal responsibility is not a conservative principle. Using government and taking away personal responsibility are cornerstones of your solution.

what is your solution?
The Us govt has set a poverty level
US govt has set a minimum wage
The US govt has set corporate and personal tax rates
We, the consumer pay all taxes, at the end of the day calling people a liar and stupid fixes nothing, no more than claiming responsablity has something to do with grossing 300.00 a week doing a honest days work
I never once stated we should be giving anyting to anybody

you claimed it would end the free market, I rebutted that Davis Bacon did not end it, your reply was I was a liar, I was stupid

In time you will admit that you have been taught the art of debate, because thats all this was. It does not matter who is right
its not changing
and next year the tax payer will put out over 1 trillion dollars to support those who are not getting paid enough to support them selves

BS?
your just making my point better than I can. you have made this personal for som-one else
honest, fair and adult debate brings this out of you?
Okay

 

[Bern80]

I stated I estimated billion dollar projects
As far as my grammer goes and anyone taking me seriously, thats an issue that is yours, not mine
calling people a liar is the lowest form if scum that walks the face os the earth
I earned where I am in life, those who trust me do not need you or bern 80s approval

to be honest, I have grown very bored with this thread I started a long time ago

I am going tell you the same thing I tell evryone who thinks it is there place in life to attack others
Ignore me
I do not care, I have nom use for you

as far as being a conservative? I am the only one in this thread who has offerd a solution to our growing problem with wel fare and poverty

Instead of attacking people, where is your solution?

Actually, your grammar is YOUR issue as it is arepresentation of you and it does call your abilities and claims into question. You say you estimate billion dollar projects. I would assume that requires a written form of communication. While I might not fire you, you certainly wouldn't be writing estimates for me or to a customer given your lack of communication skills.

Calling someone a liar isn't the lowest form of scum. Being a liar is. Calling someone a liar if they are, is calling a spade a spade.

I don't ignore people on message boards. My skin is far too thick for that.

Your "solution" is not conservative or free market. It is a damned government mandate. Legislation that tells an employer how to run their business. We already have too much of that.

Conservative solutions have been provided to you repeatedly, but you dismiss them. Tax dollars should not be given to lazy people. People who are mentally or physically challenged and can't help themselves, yes. But as bern has said, take their crutch away and let them walk. That solves part of the taxes you are paying and how the government wastes it. The other answer is expecting people to take personal responsibility for their actions and getting the education they need to get ahead. This is still the land of opportunity. Everyone has a fair shot at doing and being anything they want. Community college costs less than a sate university does and a state university costs less than an ivy league school. Trade schools and vo-techs are reasonable. Scholarships are available for those who can't afford the costs. If people do not avail themselves of the opportunities out there, they have no one to blame but themselves if they can't make a living wage. It is there responsibility to provide that for themselves, not the government of their employer.

To start with calling someone you nothing about a liar is being a scum bag
My grammer is not a requirement to care for the people I care for, writing in these format is no different than texting
You guys keep making this about everything I have not made it about. At no time did I say the word give
The county I call home pays there employees less than 10.00 an hour. That is what I am talking about
The people I know in the private secotr framing houses are making 10.00 an hour. Thats what I am talking about
Besides, as I stated before it is not going to change. As was posted earlier, all I have asked for was the minimum wage to equal inflation over the last 30 years (that was posted by others)

Look guys, do not think being a conservative means all things govt does is evil. If it was we would be in a world of anarchy

And to think a corporation oews the tax payer nothing is just plain stupid, It owes him the same chance to succed that all of those things the tax payer has provided for that corporation to succed does

What gives both of you away is your in ability to accept corporations do not pay taxes, there success in part comes from there in ability to pay a wage that would not be considered a living wage. we pivk it up for them

Being mature brings with it the ability to agree to dis agree. By the way not every-one with an education means they are making more than minimum wage nor does it mean those jobs that pay 8.00 an hour will go away.

At the end of the day calling me a liar just because we dis agree or claiming I am not a conservative because I Offer a real solution to a very real problem is just childish. You want lower Taxes? You want free market solutions to problems the free market is a part of?

what else is there?

I also am having a hard time understanding where it is you get the idea Burger King has an issue with this?
Its really not that big of a deal to them, what is, is there tax rate that we pay for. that cost is passed on to us. It would be no different if the minimum wage was 13.00 an hour except your creating wealth, not destroying it

What if the corporate tax rate went down 10% in trade for the Minimum wage going to 13.00 an hour?
If you trim 300 billion from the amount we pay out in well fare every year and pass that savings on to the tax payer, is that not a free market solution?

Are you not creating welath instead of destroying it? stop attacking for one minute and making slanderous accusations and think about what I am saying. There is no need to agree, but do not go thru life attacking those you dis agree with, it speaks volumes about you as a person

Actually I do accept the notion that essentially the taxes a corporation pays come from their consumers. Why that means as far as what said corproration is supposed to provide an individual in wages, I'm not sure.

You complain about the people in your county making 10/hr. You would like better for them. I get that. But if the market says what they do is only worth 10/hr, so be it. If that isn't enough to live on they have to do something different. THAT IS THE SOLUTION. You keep asking what's our solution to the welfare problem. We've repeated ad nauseum for two or three pages now. If an individual's problem is they don't make enough doing what they're doing to live on, the solution to fixing that problem is to stop doing what isn't working and start doing what does. Not go whine to government and tell them someone else has to give them more money. Is that a terribly difficult concept for you to grasp?

 

[JRK]

Actually, your grammar is YOUR issue as it is arepresentation of you and it does call your abilities and claims into question. You say you estimate billion dollar projects. I would assume that requires a written form of communication. While I might not fire you, you certainly wouldn't be writing estimates for me or to a customer given your lack of communication skills.

Calling someone a liar isn't the lowest form of scum. Being a liar is. Calling someone a liar if they are, is calling a spade a spade.

I don't ignore people on message boards. My skin is far too thick for that.

Your "solution" is not conservative or free market. It is a damned government mandate. Legislation that tells an employer how to run their business. We already have too much of that.

Conservative solutions have been provided to you repeatedly, but you dismiss them. Tax dollars should not be given to lazy people. People who are mentally or physically challenged and can't help themselves, yes. But as bern has said, take their crutch away and let them walk. That solves part of the taxes you are paying and how the government wastes it. The other answer is expecting people to take personal responsibility for their actions and getting the education they need to get ahead. This is still the land of opportunity. Everyone has a fair shot at doing and being anything they want. Community college costs less than a sate university does and a state university costs less than an ivy league school. Trade schools and vo-techs are reasonable. Scholarships are available for those who can't afford the costs. If people do not avail themselves of the opportunities out there, they have no one to blame but themselves if they can't make a living wage. It is there responsibility to provide that for themselves, not the government of their employer.

To start with calling someone you nothing about a liar is being a scum bag
My grammer is not a requirement to care for the people I care for, writing in these format is no different than texting
You guys keep making this about everything I have not made it about. At no time did I say the word give
The county I call home pays there employees less than 10.00 an hour. That is what I am talking about
The people I know in the private secotr framing houses are making 10.00 an hour. Thats what I am talking about
Besides, as I stated before it is not going to change. As was posted earlier, all I have asked for was the minimum wage to equal inflation over the last 30 years (that was posted by others)

Look guys, do not think being a conservative means all things govt does is evil. If it was we would be in a world of anarchy

And to think a corporation oews the tax payer nothing is just plain stupid, It owes him the same chance to succed that all of those things the tax payer has provided for that corporation to succed does

What gives both of you away is your in ability to accept corporations do not pay taxes, there success in part comes from there in ability to pay a wage that would not be considered a living wage. we pivk it up for them

Being mature brings with it the ability to agree to dis agree. By the way not every-one with an education means they are making more than minimum wage nor does it mean those jobs that pay 8.00 an hour will go away.

At the end of the day calling me a liar just because we dis agree or claiming I am not a conservative because I Offer a real solution to a very real problem is just childish. You want lower Taxes? You want free market solutions to problems the free market is a part of?

what else is there?

I also am having a hard time understanding where it is you get the idea Burger King has an issue with this?
Its really not that big of a deal to them, what is, is there tax rate that we pay for. that cost is passed on to us. It would be no different if the minimum wage was 13.00 an hour except your creating wealth, not destroying it

What if the corporate tax rate went down 10% in trade for the Minimum wage going to 13.00 an hour?
If you trim 300 billion from the amount we pay out in well fare every year and pass that savings on to the tax payer, is that not a free market solution?

Are you not creating welath instead of destroying it? stop attacking for one minute and making slanderous accusations and think about what I am saying. There is no need to agree, but do not go thru life attacking those you dis agree with, it speaks volumes about you as a person

Actually I do accept the notion that essentially the taxes a corporation pays come from their consumers. Why that means as far as what said corproration is supposed to provide an individual in wages, I'm not sure.

You complain about the people in your county making 10/hr. You would like better for them. I get that. But if the market says what they do is only worth 10/hr, so be it. If that isn't enough to live on they have to do something different. THAT IS THE SOLUTION. You keep asking what's our solution to the welfare problem. We've repeated ad nauseum for two or three pages now. If an individual's problem is they don't make enough doing what they're doing to live on, the solution to fixing that problem is to stop doing what isn't working and start doing what does. Not go whine to government and tell them someone else has to give them more money. Is that a terribly difficult concept for you to grasp?

Bern, were would the money come from? corporations do not have a money tree to pull from to pay there taxes. this is why I do not understand all of this anger with any of you. You keep claiming that I am not who I say I am and the very basic things one must understand to make it in corporate America you doubt.

So what your saying is your solution is to do away with every job that pays below poverty level? You dont relize it, but you just agreed with my solution

bottom line is this, someone has to take the garbage out. What our asking me to grasp does not exist
We pay all taxes, we pay all salaries, and If you think resolving the poverty problem we have in this country is whining, your going right back to a place that resolves nothing

 

[Bern80]

Bern, were would the money come from? corporations do not have a money tree to pull from to pay there taxes. this is why I do not understand all of this anger with any of you. You keep claiming that I am not who I say I am and the very basic things one must understand to make it in corporate America you doubt.

If they don't have a money tree to pay extra taxes where is the money tree to pay higher wages that you want to mandate on them?

So what your saying is your solution is to do away with every job that pays below poverty level? You dont relize it, but you just agreed with my solution

I just told you what my solution was, but I'll try once more. If, I repeat, IF you need to generate cash flow to provided for your basic needs and what you're doing now isn't achieving that, you do something different. The 'if' above is important because no, that solution does NOT require getting rid of all less than living wage jobs. There is in fact a market and place for them which I have mentioned before. Teens getting their first jobs want to earn money, but they don't need it to live on. Other people just want a little extra income. Or it can be supplemental income for a household. There are a lot of people who simply don't need an income to live on. So no, not all lower than living wage jobs need to be eliminated because they do in fact serve a market that essentially doesn't care whether it's an amount that's enough to live on or not.

bottom line is this, someone has to take the garbage out. What our asking me to grasp does not exist
We pay all taxes, we pay all salaries, and If you think resolving the poverty problem we have in this country is whining, your going right back to a place that resolves nothing

I'm not sure why I need to repeat these either. Again.....I also would like there to be less poverty and less welfare. The issue is while our goal is the same our solutions are very different and to put in bluntly yours is logisitically wrong and morally wrong.

 

[thereisnospoon]

sweetie its net 30, net 90 and your net chapter 7
This debate got way personal to some along time ago. The one thing that is being missed is that if we raise our pay the we would raise the cost of our service/product to pay for it, this is what is being done with the taxes the corporations and individuals are paying

Its about wealth destruction or creation, you choose which

No kidding. I pointed that out early in the thread.

Good lord......Do you understand yet why some of us our so confused JRK? Now you admit that the costs of goods and services will go right up with the living wage increase and you're still advocating for it? The whole idea behind a living wage is so that people can afford the things they need to live on right? Yet here you are admitting that the cost of those things is going to go up as a result of the increase to a living wage that everyone is supposed to get. Everything costs relatively the same as it did in terms of individuals buying power as it did before you raised the wage.

It is about wealth creation. More specificallty WHO should create it. Should you create your own wealth or should it be just given to you because you 'need' it? You seem to fall into the later category

I'm not JRK...

 

[JRK]

Bern, were would the money come from? corporations do not have a money tree to pull from to pay there taxes. this is why I do not understand all of this anger with any of you. You keep claiming that I am not who I say I am and the very basic things one must understand to make it in corporate America you doubt.

If they don't have a money tree to pay extra taxes where is the money tree to pay higher wages that you want to mandate on them?

So what your saying is your solution is to do away with every job that pays below poverty level? You dont relize it, but you just agreed with my solution

I just told you what my solution was, but I'll try once more. If, I repeat, IF you need to generate cash flow to provided for your basic needs and what you're doing now isn't achieving that, you do something different. The 'if' above is important because no, that solution does NOT require getting rid of all less than living wage jobs. There is in fact a market and place for them which I have mentioned before. Teens getting their first jobs want to earn money, but they don't need it to live on. Other people just want a little extra income. Or it can be supplemental income for a household. There are a lot of people who simply don't need an income to live on. So no, not all lower than living wage jobs need to be eliminated because they do in fact serve a market that essentially doesn't care whether it's an amount that's enough to live on or not.

bottom line is this, someone has to take the garbage out. What our asking me to grasp does not exist
We pay all taxes, we pay all salaries, and If you think resolving the poverty problem we have in this country is whining, your going right back to a place that resolves nothing

I'm not sure why I need to repeat these either. Again.....I also would like there to be less poverty and less welfare. The issue is while our goal is the same our solutions are very different and to put in bluntly yours is logisitically wrong and morally wrong.

The money tree plucked to create the private sector = wealth for the private sector. If you believe in the RR theroy of trickle down economics
I have stated 50 times this about adults, not teenagers. supplemental income is in the form of that same pay working part time, driving a school bus. No change
I keep re peating the same thing over and over because I am not into spam, spin, nor do I feel the need to attack any-one who dis agrees with me
Clear your mind, your best argument was with the local govt cost any-way. Its the evry reason we have the minimum wage we have

 

[JRK]

No kidding. I pointed that out early in the thread.

Good lord......Do you understand yet why some of us our so confused JRK? Now you admit that the costs of goods and services will go right up with the living wage increase and you're still advocating for it? The whole idea behind a living wage is so that people can afford the things they need to live on right? Yet here you are admitting that the cost of those things is going to go up as a result of the increase to a living wage that everyone is supposed to get. Everything costs relatively the same as it did in terms of individuals buying power as it did before you raised the wage.

It is about wealth creation. More specificallty WHO should create it. Should you create your own wealth or should it be just given to you because you 'need' it? You seem to fall into the later category

I'm not JRK...

confused? if you eliminate 250 billion dollars in welfare cost by doing this, the theroy is corporate tax rates woul go down, or personal income
The bottom line is that the consumer, you and I would be taxed less, in theroy
as long as BHO is running the show this would never work. wellfare cost have went from (see below) in 3 years
The left has told the lie that the wars put us debt. the truth is the constitution mandates defense, un funded entitlement programs is whats breaking our backs, not the wars


$586.1 billion (+7.0%) - Social Security
$548.8 billion (+9.0%) - Defense[2]
$394.5 billion (+12.4%) - Medicare
$294.0 billion (+2.0%) - Unemployment and welfare
$276.4 billion (+2.9%) - Medicaid and other health related
$243.7 billion (+13.4%) - Interest on debt
$89.9 billion (+1.3%) - Education and training
$76.9 billion (+8.1%) - Transportation
$72.6 billion (+5.8%) - Veterans'
from 2007, the last real GOP budget

$695 billion (+4.9%) – Social Security
$571 billion (+58.6%) – Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending
$453 billion (+6.6%) – Medicare
$290 billion (+12.0%) – Medicaid
$164 billion (+18.0%) – Interest on National Debt

from 2010, remember UE has ins that we pay for, the corporations collect. It is for the most part funded
There is much each of you can learn here

 

[Foxfyre]

JRK can be petty and insulting guys, but, in my observations here, that has only been when he has been personally attacked or accused by others. I think he is dead wrong about his version of what a 'living wage' is and how it should be provided, but he has at least been making a decent debate of it, something few 'libs' usually can do. For the most part, except for the mini food fights now and then, I have been enjoying the pros and cons of the discussion.

And JRK, you might object to being classified a 'lib' by me, but looking to government for a forced solution to what should be a private sector problem is just simply a modern American liberal concept.

The bottom line is, a conservative knows that whenever you give the government the right to tell you what you MUST pay your employees, you have handed over another piece of the unalienable rights our Founders put their very lives on the line to give us. When the government is given power to assign what 'rights' we will have, we have no rights, but only whims of government. What the government 'gives' us can be taken away at the slightest whim.

An income furnished by somebody else has never been and should not now be a 'right'. The proper way to see labor is as a commodity or cost of doing business as much as lights, heat, water, transportation, materials, supplies, etc. are part of the cost of doing business. As such labor will have a specific value for any employer and it is the employer who knows what that value is, not the government.

Get government out of it as much as possible and let the free market work, and we will again see American wages exceeding those of anywhere else in the world.

But the guy who is worthless on the job will still remain worthless just the same.

 

[JRK]

JRK can be petty and insulting guys, but, in my observations here, that has only been when he has been personally attacked or accused by others. I think he is dead wrong about his version of what a 'living wage' is and how it should be provided, but he has at least been making a decent debate of it, something few 'libs' usually can do. For the most part, except for the mini food fights now and then, I have been enjoying the pros and cons of the discussion.

And JRK, you might object to being classified a 'lib' by me, but looking to government for a forced solution to what should be a private sector problem is just simply a modern American liberal concept.

The bottom line is, a conservative knows that whenever you give the government the right to tell you what you MUST pay your employees, you have handed over another piece of the unalienable rights our Founders put their very lives on the line to give us. When the government is given power to assign what 'rights' we will have, we have no rights, but only whims of government. What the government 'gives' us can be taken away at the slightest whim.

An income furnished by somebody else has never been and should not now be a 'right'. The proper way to see labor is as a commodity or cost of doing business as much as lights, heat, water, transportation, materials, supplies, etc. are part of the cost of doing business. As such labor will have a specific value for any employer and it is the employer who knows what that value is, not the government.

Get government out of it as much as possible and let the free market work, and we will again see American wages exceeding those of anywhere else in the world.

But the guy who is worthless on the job will still remain worthless just the same.

Lib?
cuttting down taxes as well as how much the govt is involved in our lives is not a liberal idea

I do not know where any of you live but in the south there are millions of people makin 375-425 a week or less that are far from lazy
What is it I have ever stated that this was some give away? We have that in the form of wellfare
Guys I am going to say this again, I do not know where you people live, I have worked from Oregan to Florida to Kentucky and there are millions of hard working people who deserve more than there getting
I have reaches a point with this that each of you have offered no real solutions, You keep making it about things its not
I have run out of things to say

Pay a hard working person a living wage
cut down on well fare
medicare
medicade
lower taxes

Thats not a give away.
WE PAY ALL TAXES,
My god yo people have no idea how much taking 20,000 a year out of my check is in my life neck deep now. I cannot grasp why you think those corporations we are paying there taxes for should be given it all?
What in gods name about this is being a lib?
BUSINESS COLLECTS WEALTH FROM YOU
WHO DEFEND THEM T
SO WE PAY TAXES SO THOSE WHO NEED WELFARE BECAUSE WE DO NOT HAVE A LIVING WAGE IN THIS COUNTRY, THAT IS NOT MY FAULT, WHY DO YOU WANT ME TO KEEP PAYING FOR IT?,
I have had enough of this
if you want to debate what the debate is about, I am all in, you keep making this about everything but whats about and offer NO RESOLUTIONS

 

[Foxfyre]

JRK can be petty and insulting guys, but, in my observations here, that has only been when he has been personally attacked or accused by others. I think he is dead wrong about his version of what a 'living wage' is and how it should be provided, but he has at least been making a decent debate of it, something few 'libs' usually can do. For the most part, except for the mini food fights now and then, I have been enjoying the pros and cons of the discussion.

And JRK, you might object to being classified a 'lib' by me, but looking to government for a forced solution to what should be a private sector problem is just simply a modern American liberal concept.

The bottom line is, a conservative knows that whenever you give the government the right to tell you what you MUST pay your employees, you have handed over another piece of the unalienable rights our Founders put their very lives on the line to give us. When the government is given power to assign what 'rights' we will have, we have no rights, but only whims of government. What the government 'gives' us can be taken away at the slightest whim.

An income furnished by somebody else has never been and should not now be a 'right'. The proper way to see labor is as a commodity or cost of doing business as much as lights, heat, water, transportation, materials, supplies, etc. are part of the cost of doing business. As such labor will have a specific value for any employer and it is the employer who knows what that value is, not the government.

Get government out of it as much as possible and let the free market work, and we will again see American wages exceeding those of anywhere else in the world.

But the guy who is worthless on the job will still remain worthless just the same.

Lib?
cuttting down taxes as well as how much the govt is involved in our lives is not a liberal idea

I do not know where any of you live but in the south there are millions of people makin 375-425 a week or less that are far from lazy
What is it I have ever stated that this was some give away? We have that in the form of wellfare
Guys I am going to say this again, I do not know where you people live, I have worked from Oregan to Florida to Kentucky and there are millions of hard working people who deserve more than there getting
I have reaches a point with this that each of you have offered no real solutions, You keep making it about things its not
I have run out of things to say

Pay a hard working person a living wage
cut down on well fare
medicare
medicade
lower taxes

Thats not a give away.
WE PAY ALL TAXES,
My god yo people have no idea how much taking 20,000 a year out of my check is in my life neck deep now. I cannot grasp why you think those corporations we are paying there taxes for should be given it all?
What in gods name about this is being a lib?
BUSINESS COLLECTS WEALTH FROM YOU
WHO DEFEND THEM T
SO WE PAY TAXES SO THOSE WHO NEED WELFARE BECAUSE WE DO NOT HAVE A LIVING WAGE IN THIS COUNTRY, THAT IS NOT MY FAULT, WHY DO YOU WANT ME TO KEEP PAYING FOR IT?,
I have had enough of this
if you want to debate what the debate is about, I am all in, you keep making this about everything but whats about and offer NO RESOLUTIONS

Sir, I AM debating what the debate is about which, on this thread, is a living wage. You on one hand object to being called a 'lib' and say you are opposed to more government interference in our lives, but then keep insisting that you want the government to initiate a living wage which is purely a liberal concept.

I am telling you that you can't have it both ways. You are either a conservative when it comes to a living wage and know it is best for the free market to establish that, or you are a liberal when it comes to a living wage and want the government to dictate that.

I am also opposed to there BEING any welfare state at the federal level. That also comes from my conservative credentials.

But I am telling you, as have so many others, that a government mandated 'living wage' will NOT eliminate the welfare state but rather will most likely enlarge it. Business is not going to pay more for any job than it is worth to that business, and if the goverment requires the employer to pay more than he is willing to pay, the employer will not hire.

It will also shut out the most unemployable in our society as business will not hire the marginal employee at the same wage as he pays more productive workers. If he is required to, he won't hire the marginal employee.

Your intentions are okay. But the solution you see is deeply flawed.

 

[thereisnospoon]

JRK can be petty and insulting guys, but, in my observations here, that has only been when he has been personally attacked or accused by others. I think he is dead wrong about his version of what a 'living wage' is and how it should be provided, but he has at least been making a decent debate of it, something few 'libs' usually can do. For the most part, except for the mini food fights now and then, I have been enjoying the pros and cons of the discussion.

And JRK, you might object to being classified a 'lib' by me, but looking to government for a forced solution to what should be a private sector problem is just simply a modern American liberal concept.

The bottom line is, a conservative knows that whenever you give the government the right to tell you what you MUST pay your employees, you have handed over another piece of the unalienable rights our Founders put their very lives on the line to give us. When the government is given power to assign what 'rights' we will have, we have no rights, but only whims of government. What the government 'gives' us can be taken away at the slightest whim.

An income furnished by somebody else has never been and should not now be a 'right'. The proper way to see labor is as a commodity or cost of doing business as much as lights, heat, water, transportation, materials, supplies, etc. are part of the cost of doing business. As such labor will have a specific value for any employer and it is the employer who knows what that value is, not the government.

Get government out of it as much as possible and let the free market work, and we will again see American wages exceeding those of anywhere else in the world.

But the guy who is worthless on the job will still remain worthless just the same.

Lib?
cuttting down taxes as well as how much the govt is involved in our lives is not a liberal idea

I do not know where any of you live but in the south there are millions of people makin 375-425 a week or less that are far from lazy
What is it I have ever stated that this was some give away? We have that in the form of wellfare
Guys I am going to say this again, I do not know where you people live, I have worked from Oregan to Florida to Kentucky and there are millions of hard working people who deserve more than there getting
I have reaches a point with this that each of you have offered no real solutions, You keep making it about things its not
I have run out of things to say

Pay a hard working person a living wage
cut down on well fare
medicare
medicade
lower taxes

Thats not a give away.
WE PAY ALL TAXES,
My god yo people have no idea how much taking 20,000 a year out of my check is in my life neck deep now. I cannot grasp why you think those corporations we are paying there taxes for should be given it all?
What in gods name about this is being a lib?
BUSINESS COLLECTS WEALTH FROM YOU
WHO DEFEND THEM T
SO WE PAY TAXES SO THOSE WHO NEED WELFARE BECAUSE WE DO NOT HAVE A LIVING WAGE IN THIS COUNTRY, THAT IS NOT MY FAULT, WHY DO YOU WANT ME TO KEEP PAYING FOR IT?,
I have had enough of this
if you want to debate what the debate is about, I am all in, you keep making this about everything but whats about and offer NO RESOLUTIONS

Deserve has nothing to do with it. As previously stated, labor is a commodity.
The marketplace determines wages. In each region of the country we find different labor rates for similar work. I have been to just about every state in the Eastern Time Zone. And some in the mid west and deep south. Florida is probably the worst as far as market labor rates. That is due to the higher cost of living in larger cities.
In any event, government nor any other agency can force market rates upward because that would be an unfunded mandate.
Let's say for a moment, the federal government mandates a living wage based on some kind of formula. Whatever that may be.
The rates take effect on 1/1/2013....Hypothetically.
Now, just what do you think business would do in reaction?. Think about what banks did in reaction to new rules under Dodd/Frank?...Banks produced different fees and charges and took away some benefits from consumers.
Same thing would occcur if wages were artificially increased via government mandate.Prices would be accordingly increased so that business could make up the difference. Eventually those on the lowest end of the wage scale would be right back to square one.
Producers will always find ways to recoup their expenses.

 

[Bern80]

I have stated 50 times this about adults, not teenagers. supplemental income is in the form of that same pay working part time, driving a school bus. No change

So we're back to the immorality of your argument. Two people working the same job should be paid different wages if one person needs the money more than the other according to what you're saying here. Think about what you're saying. A single adult goes to work at McDonald's and a teenager goes to work at McDonald's. You're claiming that the adult should get to make nearly TWICE what the teen makes simply because the adult needs the money?