Explain it to me like I'm stupid ...

[Ropey]

Actually, if you want to go back to the very beginning of the problem... it goes all the way back to a sibling rivalry between Ishmael and Isaac, thousands of years ago. Isaac was Abraham's "son of promise" and Ishmael was Abraham's son via Hagar their maidservant who was conceived due to their distrust of God's promise.

So it boils down to a very long running dispute on who the rightful heir is (and by extension, his descendants) to the promised land. But in the bible it's clear, Isaac was the child of promise, read Genesis 26. That said, God did bless Ishmael as well. (Genesis 17:20)

i'll put on my flame suit for those who think the bible is a myth.

Ishmael was given the promises and that he would have much land and 12 princes, but not the land or the blessings of the land of G-d mandated Israel.

 

[Ropey]

G-d made it clear when he spoke to Abraham.

And it came to pass after these things, that G-d (Elohim) tested Abraham, and said to him, Abraham; and he said, 'Behold, here I am.' And He said, 'Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell you. [Genesis 22:1-2]

Ishmael was not the favored son of Abraham or G-d.

 

[Sixties Fan]

G-d made it clear when he spoke to Abraham.

And it came to pass after these things, that G-d (Elohim) tested Abraham, and said to him, Abraham; and he said, 'Behold, here I am.' And He said, 'Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell you. [Genesis 22:1-2]

Ishmael was not the favored the son of Abraham or G-d.

None of this explains the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.

 

[Ropey]

None of this explains the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.

You can't make peace when those you want to make peace with won't even enter the room with you. It took all of Clinton's jazz just to get Yasir to shake hand with Rabin.

This Week In History: The Arab League's three no's

After Israel's crushing defeat of its Arab neighbors during the Six Day War, Arab leaders meet in Khartoum and agree to "no peace," "no negotiations" and "no recognition" of Israel.

www.jpost.com

The Iraqui led Arab Middle Eastern Council has now issued a fatwa against Hamas.

In groundbreaking ruling, Middle Eastern Islamic council declares ‘fatwa’ against Hamas

The Iraqi-based Islamic Fatwa Council has called Hamas’ treatment of millions of Palestinians living under its rule in the Gaza Strip "inhumane" and "illegitimate."

www.foxnews.com

 

[Sixties Fan]

Actually, if you want to go back to the very beginning of the problem... it goes all the way back to a sibling rivalry between Ishmael and Isaac, thousands of years ago. Isaac was Abraham's "son of promise" and Ishmael was Abraham's son via Hagar their maidservant who was conceived due to their distrust of God's promise.

So it boils down to a very long running dispute on who the rightful heir is (and by extension, his descendants) to the promised land. But in the bible it's clear, Isaac was the child of promise, read Genesis 26. That said, God did bless Ishmael as well. (Genesis 17:20)

i'll put on my flame suit for those who think the bible is a myth.

Ishmael is not the father of all Arabs.
This myth was started by someone in Islam, after Islam was founded. 2400 years after Abraham.

Until the 7th century CE, Arabs had absolutely no interest in Judaism, and never, ever ...... came up with the idea that they might be descendants of Abraham.

Why? Because they are not.

There is no sibling rivalry here. There is one ideology turned religion, trying to control the religion which came before it. And all of it because Christians went out into Arabia to convert Arabs into Christianity.


THAT is the history of the area, and the bottom of the Israel/Palestine conflict.

It is Islam's war on Jews, demanding that Jews remain landless.

 

[Ropey]

Azerbaijan provides ~40% of Israel's oil supply and greatly assists Israel on security issues with observation points directed at Iran as well as technology transfers.

Azerbaijan gives Israel ‘access to Iran’ as part of strategic alliance: Report

As part of this alliance, Azerbaijan receives the most advanced military hardware from Israel and allows the Mossad to establish a presence near the Iranian border

thecradle.co

Azerbaijan is estimated to have a population of ~96.9% Muslim and most follow Shia Islam.

 

[Ropey]

Ps
43:6 Unanimous in their counsel they have made an alliance against You.
43:7 the clans of Edom and the Ishmaelites, Moab and the Hagrites.

And thus began the coalition of 'Arabs'.

 

[Ropey]

Gen 22:1 After these events, after Isaac and Ishmael had quarreled, Ishmael said, “it is right that I should be my father’s heir, since I am his first-born son.” But Isaac said, “It is right that I should be my father’s heir, because I am the son of Sarah his wife, while you are the son of Hagar, my mother’s maidservant.” Ishmael answered and said, “I am more worthy than you, because I was circumcised at the age of thirteen. And if I had wished to refuse, I would not have handed myself over to be circumcised. But you were circumcised at the age of eight days. If you had been aware, perhaps you would not have handed yourself over to be circumcised.” Isaac answered and said, “Behold, today I am thirty-seven years old, and if the Holy One, blessed be He, were to ask all my members I would not refuse.” The words were immediately heard before the Lord of the world, and at once the Memra of the Lord tested Abraham.”

Ishmael is not the father of all Arabs.
This myth was started by someone in Islam, after Islam was founded. 2400 years after Abraham.

Until the 7th century CE, Arabs had absolutely no interest in Judaism, and never, ever ...... came up with the idea that they might be descendants of Abraham.

Why? Because they are not.

There is no sibling rivalry here. There is one ideology turned religion, trying to control the religion which came before it. And all of it because Christians went out into Arabia to convert Arabs into Christianity.


THAT is the history of the area, and the bottom of the Israel/Palestine conflict.

It is Islam's war on Jews, demanding that Jews remain landless.

+2

Not unless one wishes to take Josephus to be their guide on this point. I certainly don't. He's too wrong on too much to be more than a story teller. Ishmael is a part of that group that call themselves Arab.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Gen 22:1 After these events, after Isaac and Ishmael had quarreled, Ishmael said, “it is right that I should be my father’s heir, since I am his first-born son.” But Isaac said, “It is right that I should be my father’s heir, because I am the son of Sarah his wife, while you are the son of Hagar, my mother’s maidservant.” Ishmael answered and said, “I am more worthy than you, because I was circumcised at the age of thirteen. And if I had wished to refuse, I would not have handed myself over to be circumcised. But you were circumcised at the age of eight days. If you had been aware, perhaps you would not have handed yourself over to be circumcised.” Isaac answered and said, “Behold, today I am thirty-seven years old, and if the Holy One, blessed be He, were to ask all my members I would not refuse.” The words were immediately heard before the Lord of the world, and at once the Memra of the Lord tested Abraham.”



+2

Not unless one wishes to take Josephus to be their guide on this point. I certainly don't. He's too wrong on too much to be more than a story teller. Ishmael is a part of that group that call themselves Arab.

This Thread is over.

It has been taken over by "Ishmael" fanatics.

Myths over history.

Done.

 

[buttercup]

This Thread is over.

It has been taken over by "Ishmael" fanatics.

Myths over history.

Done.

Um, you seem to have misunderstood by a country mile. If you re-read my earlier post, I was saying that according to the bible ISAAC (who the Jews descended from), not Ishmael, was the rightful heir because he (Isaac) was the child of promise. So apparently you didn't read those posts very carefully if what you got out of it is that we're "Ishmael fanatics."

But whatever, that's all I gotta say about that.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Um, you seem to have misunderstood by a country mile. If you re-read my earlier post, I was saying that according to the bible ISAAC (who the Jews descended from), not Ishmael, was the rightful heir because he (Isaac) was the child of promise. So apparently you didn't read those posts very carefully if what you got out of it is that we're "Ishmael fanatics."

But whatever, that's all I gotta say about that.

This was part of your post:

"Actually, if you want to go back to the very beginning of the problem... it goes all the way back to a sibling rivalry between Ishmael and Isaac, thousands of years ago."


There is no sibling rivalry, of any shape or form.

As I made it clear, Ishmael is NOT the father of all Arabs. Therefore there cannot be a sibling rivalry, which the Muslims have invented since Islam was founded.

Islam appropriated everything which was Jewish in order to make their new religion valid for themselves. 2400 years after Judaism was founded.


That is what I said.

 

[fncceo]

 

[fncceo]

 

[Mindful]

How you doing, Tinman?

 

[The Duke]

Why is there so much hate between Israel and Palestine? Is it all because both want Jerusalem to belong to them?

I gots to refer you to the reigning authority on that:

Coyote

I run from threads about this like the stinkiest dog stack you ever did see.

And she runs to them.

 

[P F Tinmore]

None of this explains the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.

Indeed, what does all that have to do with settler colonialism and apartheid?

 

[Sixties Fan]

Indeed, what does all that have to do with settler colonialism and apartheid?

Are you going to educate the OP about Muslim settler colonialism of all the Asia they conquered since the 7th century and the apartheid which exists in every "country" run by Muslims, especially those run by Arabs who left the Arabian Peninsula during that century?

Don't worry. The OP does not care. Started this thread just "because".

 

[Sixties Fan]

[ This is the person most responsible for Palestinian leaders mostly rejecting peace with Israel and continuing to educate their people to hate and kill Jews and attempt to destroy Israel . Had other Muslim clans defeated the Al Husseini clan in the 1920s, the history of the region would have been totally different]



Though Haj Amin al-Husseini was not a decision-maker in wartime Berlin, he certainly was in the post-war Middle East. In this regard, Rubin and Schwanitz make a convincing case about his destructive impact on events up to and including the war of 1948. They refer to the impact of Husseini’s charisma, determination to avoid any concessions to the Zionists, ability to incite his followers to violence “as well as internal pressures from Islamist and nationalist radicals who incited flammable public opinion.” While acknowledging pressure from other groups that made war in 1948 seem inevitable, the war of 1948 and the Arab-Israeli conflict may not have taken place “without al-Husaini and his allies…No one individual made this outcome more likely than him…Without al-Husaini’s presence as the Palestinian Arabs’ and [as] a transnational Islamist leader there might have been other options. And al-Husaini was well funded by money and well-armed with rifles that had been provided by the Nazis…Once al-Husaini was allowed to reestablish himself as unchallengeable leader of the Palestine Arabs, this ensured that no compromise such as Partition or the “two-state solution” would be considered, while making certain that Arab leaders would be intimidated and driven to war.”59 We cannot know how events would have transpired if Husseini had been absent in the crucial years before and during the 1948 war. He was, after all, one of a number of Arab leaders who decided on war rather than partition and compromise in 1948. We do know that he was an emphatic opponent of compromise and that he had the means, the arms and the men with which to exert his will in post-war Palestine. The logical outcome of the views he expressed before during and after his collaboration with Nazi Germany, from the Bludan speech of 1937 to the speeches from the Islamic Central Institute in Berlin and the post-war calls for war against the Zionists, was a determination to expel all or most of the Jews living in Mandatory Palestine. This was a policy that could be achieved only by a war to prevent the establishment of a Jewish state.60

One precondition for a peaceful end to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict lies in an Arab and Palestinian rejection of the reactionary Islamist political theology that Husseini did so much to create. A frank and well-grounded coming to terms with the history of his collaboration with Nazi Germany should be part of that reckoning. In the fall of 2015, Palestinian leaders repeated the falsehood that Israel was threatening the Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. Those assertions in their own right are evidence of the continuing impact on elements of Palestinian and Arab political culture of the no longer under-examined history of the origins, nature and after-effects of Haj Amin el-Husseini’s collaboration with Nazi Germany.

(full article online)

Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Nazis and the Holocaust

From 1941 to 1945, al-Husseini played a central role in shaping the political tradition of Islamism. - Jeffrey Herf - JPSR - Jerusalem Center

jcpa.org

 

[Ropey]

Don't worry. The OP does not care. Started this thread just "because".

The OP in point of fact does care. Your post is arrogantly fallacious and a personal attack.

Some won’t like the shakeup to get the members discussing the facts instead of personal attacks that can be made in the flame zone.

 

[José]

Antisemites just LOVE to parade about the Neturei Karta, now, don't they?

If you concede the fact that the vast majority of the jewish community in Palestine in 1880 hated Zionism just like the Neturei Karta of today, why are you (ab)using their historic presence in Palestine to "legitimize" a political movement they considered a despicable blasphemy?

Stop debating in bad faith.

Respect the fact that they're no longer here to defend themselves from abusers like you who instrumentalize them, who use them as tools to validate the very same political movement they spent their entire lives fighting against.

Ropey at least respect their memory and try to find other arguments to legitimize Israel.