Expelled Oklahoma U fraternity to sue university, possibly President Boren

[martybegan]

Students are not employees. and neither of those two interacted with a government agency.

A code of conduct that violates any amendment given rights is null and void on its face.

People have been fired from jobs and expelled from school for things they've posted on Facebook. sorry, the racist fratboys don't have a leg to stand on here.

You have examples of them being expelled? From a public university? For speech that was not considered a direct threat, or "fighting words"

Again, being a student is not a job.

 

[JoeB131]

A Public university, which is a government entity, and has to follow the rules of government.

Or... not.

Do you really think there's a jury out that's going to find for these kids after hearing that video?

 

[martybegan]

"We are expelling you to protect you?"

Lol, your inner fascist is showing again. It sounds like nothing more than a glammed up version of "protective custody"

well, they probably don't want to clean the blood of these two shitheads off their nice concrete...

Seriously, why would they want to go to school where they're going to be universally hated? They're probably better off enrolling somewhere else.

That's not a government agencies call to make. I know you don't give a shit about process (there's that fascist thing again) but government has rules it has to follow, i.e. the constitution.

 

[PratchettFan]

Since the university no doubt has codes of conduct and a bunch of legalese that probably none of these drunk frat boys bothered to read before they signed, not so much.

Oh, look everyone, Mac is coming out in favor of racist frat boys.

Last I heard, the First Amendment even applied to racist frat boys.

And the consequences thereof...
These people have no legal right to remain students of this university...if they do post the evidence.

If the University, a part of the government, applies negative consequences to the exercise of free speech they are in violation of the First Amendment. The First Amendment isn't there to make sure only one point of view is allowed. If you think it doesn't apply to "that point of view" then you don't understand it at all.

 

[martybegan]

A Public university, which is a government entity, and has to follow the rules of government.

Or... not.

Do you really think there's a jury out that's going to find for these kids after hearing that video?

Appeal to emotion, nothing more.

 

[bodecea]

March 12, 2015: "The local chapter of Sigma Alpha Epsilon is planning to pursue legal action against the University of Oklahoma, and possibly OU President David Boren.

The group has hired high-profile attorney, Stephen Jones to represent them.

Jones told NewsChannel 4 the group is outraged over President Boren shutting down the fraternity house and branding all SAE members as racists and bigots.

Jones says the two students who were expelled because of the incident have apologized sincerely for their remarks, and now the incident is being exploited."

OU SAE to sue university possibly President Boren KFOR.com

They should go right ahead.

 

[reconmark]

Since the university no doubt has codes of conduct and a bunch of legalese that probably none of these drunk frat boys bothered to read before they signed, not so much.

Oh, look everyone, Mac is coming out in favor of racist frat boys.

Last I heard, the First Amendment even applied to racist frat boys.

And the consequences thereof...
These people have no legal right to remain students of this university...if they do post the evidence.

If the University, a part of the government, applies negative consequences to the exercise of free speech they are in violation of the First Amendment. The First Amendment isn't there to make sure only one point of view is allowed. If you think it doesn't apply to "that point of view" then you don't understand it at all.

Actually you seem to be the befuddled one here...
The First Amendment of these racists weren't infringed, they were never instructed as to what language and/or words they could not use.
Free Speech does not protect you from the consequences of it...

 

[JoeB131]

You have examples of them being expelled? From a public university? For speech that was not considered a direct threat, or "fighting words"

Again, being a student is not a job.

Here's a good one for you...


Student Expelled For Facebook Posts Loses First Amendment Case Against College

Students in Minnesota, beware what you say in social media, or at least mark your accounts private: The U.S. District Court in Minneapolis threw out a lawsuit earlier this week by a student who was expelled from a nursing program for his personal Facebook posts.

The Student Press Law Center reports that Craig Keefe sued Central Lakes College for expelling him based on posts that it said violated the school’s student handbook:

In November 2012, two fellow students approached Kim Scott, an instructor in the nursing program, with concerns related to the content of Keefe’s Facebook posts. In the posts, he addressed frustrations with other students in a class using phrases such as “stupid *****” and “not enough whiskey to control that anger.”

The school didn’t allow Keefe to appeal the expulsion, leading him to argue the school “did not give him the proper due process to defend himself because the matter was misclassified as ‘academic’ rather than disciplinary,” SPLC says.

 

[martybegan]

Since the university no doubt has codes of conduct and a bunch of legalese that probably none of these drunk frat boys bothered to read before they signed, not so much.

Oh, look everyone, Mac is coming out in favor of racist frat boys.

Last I heard, the First Amendment even applied to racist frat boys.

And the consequences thereof...
These people have no legal right to remain students of this university...if they do post the evidence.

If the University, a part of the government, applies negative consequences to the exercise of free speech they are in violation of the First Amendment. The First Amendment isn't there to make sure only one point of view is allowed. If you think it doesn't apply to "that point of view" then you don't understand it at all.

Actually you seem to be the befuddled one here...
The First Amendment of these racists weren't infringed, they were never instructed as to what language and/or words they could not use.
Free Speech does not protect you from the consequences of it...

It prevents government from imposing those consequences. If other people don't want to associate with them, that is their right. If the national fraternity wants to cancel their charter, they are also within their rights. If the local Starbucks they work for wants to fire them, again, no issue. But a public university is a branch of government, and thus is restricted by the constitution with regards to any action regarding the speech of a person.

 

[JoeB131]

That's not a government agencies call to make. I know you don't give a shit about process (there's that fascist thing again) but government has rules it has to follow, i.e. the constitution.

They had a totally fair hearing. they had evidence, they asked the guys if they said that shit and they bounced their asses.

Works for me.

 

[Carla_Danger]

Its called being in favor of due process.

There is a statement out there. If you only support speech YOU agree with, you are a hack. If you only support speech that everyone agrees with, then you are a coward"

It isn't a free speech issue. Just like the Duck Dynasty guy or that Fat chick who liked to cook with butter, whatever her name was. It's not a free speech issue if my boss fires me after I call him an asshole.

This is a transaction between parties. There's no due process issue here. These guys were caught on tape chanting racist epitaths, which violates the universities code of conduct. Therefore the university was well within its rights to expell the little racist *****.

Yes, it is a free speech issue. The difference between your examples is those people were with private companies who could set their own rules. This is a public university paid with public funds. They are part of the government. If the government can throw people out of school for speech you don't like, they can throw them out for speech you do.

It's not private when someone posts the video of it on youtube.

 

[PratchettFan]

Since the university no doubt has codes of conduct and a bunch of legalese that probably none of these drunk frat boys bothered to read before they signed, not so much.

Oh, look everyone, Mac is coming out in favor of racist frat boys.

Last I heard, the First Amendment even applied to racist frat boys.

Yes, it does. Congress has no business telling them they can't say Racist things.

But it doesn't entitle them to enrollment in a university.

And if they had been making anti-war comments? Can the university toss them out? How about if they were demonstrating for SSM or against it? Can they be tossed out for that? Are you saying a public university has the authority to tell its students what political positions it will or will not allow? What religious expressions it will or will not allow? How about if the university decided only Christian symbols are allowed and required each student to attend bible studies? If the First Amendment protections can be ignored by a public university, then they can be ignored.

What those kids did was stupid. I have no idea what their motivation was. But what you are suggesting is tossing out one of our most important protections against government intrusion just because you don't happen to like what they said.

 

[PratchettFan]

Its called being in favor of due process.

There is a statement out there. If you only support speech YOU agree with, you are a hack. If you only support speech that everyone agrees with, then you are a coward"

It isn't a free speech issue. Just like the Duck Dynasty guy or that Fat chick who liked to cook with butter, whatever her name was. It's not a free speech issue if my boss fires me after I call him an asshole.

This is a transaction between parties. There's no due process issue here. These guys were caught on tape chanting racist epitaths, which violates the universities code of conduct. Therefore the university was well within its rights to expell the little racist *****.

Yes, it is a free speech issue. The difference between your examples is those people were with private companies who could set their own rules. This is a public university paid with public funds. They are part of the government. If the government can throw people out of school for speech you don't like, they can throw them out for speech you do.

It's not private when someone posts the video of it on youtube.

Public speech isn't protected? I can say what I please so long as I don't let anyone hear me do it?

 

[JoeB131]

And if they had been making anti-war comments? Can the university toss them out? How about if they were demonstrating for SSM or against it? Can they be tossed out for that? Are you saying a public university has the authority to tell its students what political positions it will or will not allow? What religious expressions it will or will not allow? How about if the university decided only Christian symbols are allowed and required each student to attend bible studies? If the First Amendment protections can be ignored by a public university, then they can be ignored.

What those kids did was stupid. I have no idea what their motivation was. But what you are suggesting is tossing out one of our most important protections against government intrusion just because you don't happen to like what they said.

You know what, some of us can make distinctions between political speech and just being an asshole.

and the university did just that.

 

[martybegan]

You have examples of them being expelled? From a public university? For speech that was not considered a direct threat, or "fighting words"

Again, being a student is not a job.

Here's a good one for you...


Student Expelled For Facebook Posts Loses First Amendment Case Against College

Students in Minnesota, beware what you say in social media, or at least mark your accounts private: The U.S. District Court in Minneapolis threw out a lawsuit earlier this week by a student who was expelled from a nursing program for his personal Facebook posts.

The Student Press Law Center reports that Craig Keefe sued Central Lakes College for expelling him based on posts that it said violated the school’s student handbook:

In November 2012, two fellow students approached Kim Scott, an instructor in the nursing program, with concerns related to the content of Keefe’s Facebook posts. In the posts, he addressed frustrations with other students in a class using phrases such as “stupid *****” and “not enough whiskey to control that anger.”

The school didn’t allow Keefe to appeal the expulsion, leading him to argue the school “did not give him the proper due process to defend himself because the matter was misclassified as ‘academic’ rather than disciplinary,” SPLC says.

This involves an interaction between people, and the potential for "threatening words." This is not comparable to the current case.

Also, its only up to the district court so far.

 

[martybegan]

And if they had been making anti-war comments? Can the university toss them out? How about if they were demonstrating for SSM or against it? Can they be tossed out for that? Are you saying a public university has the authority to tell its students what political positions it will or will not allow? What religious expressions it will or will not allow? How about if the university decided only Christian symbols are allowed and required each student to attend bible studies? If the First Amendment protections can be ignored by a public university, then they can be ignored.

What those kids did was stupid. I have no idea what their motivation was. But what you are suggesting is tossing out one of our most important protections against government intrusion just because you don't happen to like what they said.

You know what, some of us can make distinctions between political speech and just being an asshole.

and the university did just that.

You and the University don't get to make that call.

 

[PratchettFan]

Since the university no doubt has codes of conduct and a bunch of legalese that probably none of these drunk frat boys bothered to read before they signed, not so much.

Oh, look everyone, Mac is coming out in favor of racist frat boys.

Last I heard, the First Amendment even applied to racist frat boys.

And the consequences thereof...
These people have no legal right to remain students of this university...if they do post the evidence.

If the University, a part of the government, applies negative consequences to the exercise of free speech they are in violation of the First Amendment. The First Amendment isn't there to make sure only one point of view is allowed. If you think it doesn't apply to "that point of view" then you don't understand it at all.

Actually you seem to be the befuddled one here...
The First Amendment of these racists weren't infringed, they were never instructed as to what language and/or words they could not use.
Free Speech does not protect you from the consequences of it...

So if you get thrown in jail because you made a comment about the Government, that is ok because getting jailed is just the consequence of saying what you said. No one stopped you from saying it.

 

[martybegan]

That's not a government agencies call to make. I know you don't give a shit about process (there's that fascist thing again) but government has rules it has to follow, i.e. the constitution.

They had a totally fair hearing. they had evidence, they asked the guys if they said that shit and they bounced their asses.

Works for me.

Ah, kanagroo justice, the favorite of the fascist.

 

[Carla_Danger]

Its called being in favor of due process.

There is a statement out there. If you only support speech YOU agree with, you are a hack. If you only support speech that everyone agrees with, then you are a coward"

It isn't a free speech issue. Just like the Duck Dynasty guy or that Fat chick who liked to cook with butter, whatever her name was. It's not a free speech issue if my boss fires me after I call him an asshole.

This is a transaction between parties. There's no due process issue here. These guys were caught on tape chanting racist epitaths, which violates the universities code of conduct. Therefore the university was well within its rights to expell the little racist *****.

Yes, it is a free speech issue. The difference between your examples is those people were with private companies who could set their own rules. This is a public university paid with public funds. They are part of the government. If the government can throw people out of school for speech you don't like, they can throw them out for speech you do.

It's not private when someone posts the video of it on youtube.

Public speech isn't protected? I can say what I please so long as I don't let anyone hear me do it?

You are not protected from paying consequences once your racist rant goes viral, no.

 

[Carla_Danger]

Since the university no doubt has codes of conduct and a bunch of legalese that probably none of these drunk frat boys bothered to read before they signed, not so much.

Oh, look everyone, Mac is coming out in favor of racist frat boys.

Last I heard, the First Amendment even applied to racist frat boys.

And the consequences thereof...
These people have no legal right to remain students of this university...if they do post the evidence.

If the University, a part of the government, applies negative consequences to the exercise of free speech they are in violation of the First Amendment. The First Amendment isn't there to make sure only one point of view is allowed. If you think it doesn't apply to "that point of view" then you don't understand it at all.

Actually you seem to be the befuddled one here...
The First Amendment of these racists weren't infringed, they were never instructed as to what language and/or words they could not use.
Free Speech does not protect you from the consequences of it...

So if you get thrown in jail because you made a comment about the Government, that is ok because getting jailed is just the consequence of saying what you said. No one stopped you from saying it.

These kids are not going to jail.