Exactly what and why was the 2nd amendment written like it is

that is Your story bro; the punctuation changes No Thing about Second Article of Amendment. Text is Every Thing.
Punctuation is important in any legal document because it changes the meaning in one way or another.

The courts have ruled that in the 2nd amendment the second comma divides the amendment into two clauses: one 'prefatory' and the other 'operative.' The bit about a well-regulated militia is just preliminary throat clearing; the framers don't really get down to business until they start talking about 'the right of the people ... shall not be infringed,..

However, it is has also been successfully argued in court that the use of commas was far less restrictive in 18th century; that is writers liberally used commas between most all clauses thus the primary two clauses were a conditions for the operative clause, "shall not be infringed...".

One can argue this point either way but the fact is the 2nd amendment was a compromise between states who favored a strong standing army and states who simple wanted local militias. So just as today, the two sides could read the amendment as favoring their belief.

Today 60% of gun owners state that protection is the reason they purchased a gun. 38% said it was hunting. Those were certainly not the reasons the founders put the 2nd amendment in the Constitution. Guns in those days were muskets without a rear sight that were certainly not very useful for hunting or protection. There only really practical use was in being fired in volleys as in militias.

Unlike today, the approval of the 2nd amendment was not a news worthy event because most people had little interest in owning guns. Only 1 in every 5 households owned a musket and few people had any interest in buying one since the cost was 2 weeks to a months pay. Most muskets were passed down from father to son and were not well maintained. In fact, a survey at the time done by a North Carolina militia found that over half were inoperable. They also had no rear sights making them very inaccurate and loading time for most people was 30 seconds to a minute. Thus, a good knife or axe was much better self protection at a fraction of the cost of a musket.

I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in punctuation from a 200+ year old document, and I'm a proofreader. Commas were used more or less indiscriminately in that less-linguistically refined period, which also displays the old German practice of capitalizing nouns ("Militia"... Security"... "State"... etc). Language evolves over time, and the "proper" use of a comma and what it means or doesn't mean wasn't nearly as meticulously defined as it came to be.

The adjective "prefatory" though, is pure absolute snow-job bullshit. All "prefatory" means is that it "comes before" or "introduces" another part (as in preface). We can already see that it come first, so "prefatory" tells us absolutely nothing of what its function is. And that's an enigma; the introductory phrase "a well regulated Militia being necessary to the Security of a free State" has no discernible reason to exist. A Constitution has no need to argue its case for why it sets out what it does; it simply declares "these are the rules". There's no point in rationalizing the Amendment as if it were part of some debate, nor does any other Amendment do so (nor should it), so the presence of the clause remains a head-scratcher.

Ultimately the presence of a subordinate clause that seems to want to argue its existence looks like either sloppy or unfinished work, or both. If it's intended as a limitation, which is the only conceivable direction it would have wanted to go, then it's poorly written as such.

Funny.

The only people who think it's "poorly written" are those who want their misinterpretation accepted.

Fine -- then why don't you be the first person in the history of this nation, right here on USMB --- to essplain to the class why a Constitution would need to justify itself as if it's posting on a message board.

C'mon, hook a brutha up.

The Constitution requires no justification. The Founders wrote it quite clearly.

That's correct --- a constitution (any constitution) needs no justification. It is its own justification. Any argument for or against any part of it, would have been exercised in committee, BEFORE its final language was settled upon.

So --- that being the case upon which we are agreed --- what the fuck is the function of this phrase?



See what I mean about "enigma"?
 
I like guns overall, I do. But WE can do just fine without them too. Anyone here think their sole survival hinges on firearms ?
 
Punctuation is important in any legal document because it changes the meaning in one way or another.

The courts have ruled that in the 2nd amendment the second comma divides the amendment into two clauses: one 'prefatory' and the other 'operative.' The bit about a well-regulated militia is just preliminary throat clearing; the framers don't really get down to business until they start talking about 'the right of the people ... shall not be infringed,..

However, it is has also been successfully argued in court that the use of commas was far less restrictive in 18th century; that is writers liberally used commas between most all clauses thus the primary two clauses were a conditions for the operative clause, "shall not be infringed...".

One can argue this point either way but the fact is the 2nd amendment was a compromise between states who favored a strong standing army and states who simple wanted local militias. So just as today, the two sides could read the amendment as favoring their belief.

Today 60% of gun owners state that protection is the reason they purchased a gun. 38% said it was hunting. Those were certainly not the reasons the founders put the 2nd amendment in the Constitution. Guns in those days were muskets without a rear sight that were certainly not very useful for hunting or protection. There only really practical use was in being fired in volleys as in militias.

Unlike today, the approval of the 2nd amendment was not a news worthy event because most people had little interest in owning guns. Only 1 in every 5 households owned a musket and few people had any interest in buying one since the cost was 2 weeks to a months pay. Most muskets were passed down from father to son and were not well maintained. In fact, a survey at the time done by a North Carolina militia found that over half were inoperable. They also had no rear sights making them very inaccurate and loading time for most people was 30 seconds to a minute. Thus, a good knife or axe was much better self protection at a fraction of the cost of a musket.

I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in punctuation from a 200+ year old document, and I'm a proofreader. Commas were used more or less indiscriminately in that less-linguistically refined period, which also displays the old German practice of capitalizing nouns ("Militia"... Security"... "State"... etc). Language evolves over time, and the "proper" use of a comma and what it means or doesn't mean wasn't nearly as meticulously defined as it came to be.

The adjective "prefatory" though, is pure absolute snow-job bullshit. All "prefatory" means is that it "comes before" or "introduces" another part (as in preface). We can already see that it come first, so "prefatory" tells us absolutely nothing of what its function is. And that's an enigma; the introductory phrase "a well regulated Militia being necessary to the Security of a free State" has no discernible reason to exist. A Constitution has no need to argue its case for why it sets out what it does; it simply declares "these are the rules". There's no point in rationalizing the Amendment as if it were part of some debate, nor does any other Amendment do so (nor should it), so the presence of the clause remains a head-scratcher.

Ultimately the presence of a subordinate clause that seems to want to argue its existence looks like either sloppy or unfinished work, or both. If it's intended as a limitation, which is the only conceivable direction it would have wanted to go, then it's poorly written as such.

Funny.

The only people who think it's "poorly written" are those who want their misinterpretation accepted.

Fine -- then why don't you be the first person in the history of this nation, right here on USMB --- to essplain to the class why a Constitution would need to justify itself as if it's posting on a message board.

C'mon, hook a brutha up.

The Constitution requires no justification. The Founders wrote it quite clearly.

That's correct --- a constitution (any constitution) needs no justification. It is its own justification. Any argument for or against any part of it, would have been exercised in committee, BEFORE its final language was settled upon.

So --- that being the case upon which we are agreed --- what the fuck is the function of this phrase?



See what I mean about "enigma"?

There's no enigma. The militia is bound to the right. The right is not bound to the militia.
 
I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in punctuation from a 200+ year old document, and I'm a proofreader. Commas were used more or less indiscriminately in that less-linguistically refined period, which also displays the old German practice of capitalizing nouns ("Militia"... Security"... "State"... etc). Language evolves over time, and the "proper" use of a comma and what it means or doesn't mean wasn't nearly as meticulously defined as it came to be.

The adjective "prefatory" though, is pure absolute snow-job bullshit. All "prefatory" means is that it "comes before" or "introduces" another part (as in preface). We can already see that it come first, so "prefatory" tells us absolutely nothing of what its function is. And that's an enigma; the introductory phrase "a well regulated Militia being necessary to the Security of a free State" has no discernible reason to exist. A Constitution has no need to argue its case for why it sets out what it does; it simply declares "these are the rules". There's no point in rationalizing the Amendment as if it were part of some debate, nor does any other Amendment do so (nor should it), so the presence of the clause remains a head-scratcher.

Ultimately the presence of a subordinate clause that seems to want to argue its existence looks like either sloppy or unfinished work, or both. If it's intended as a limitation, which is the only conceivable direction it would have wanted to go, then it's poorly written as such.

Funny.

The only people who think it's "poorly written" are those who want their misinterpretation accepted.

Fine -- then why don't you be the first person in the history of this nation, right here on USMB --- to essplain to the class why a Constitution would need to justify itself as if it's posting on a message board.

C'mon, hook a brutha up.

The Constitution requires no justification. The Founders wrote it quite clearly.

That's correct --- a constitution (any constitution) needs no justification. It is its own justification. Any argument for or against any part of it, would have been exercised in committee, BEFORE its final language was settled upon.

So --- that being the case upon which we are agreed --- what the fuck is the function of this phrase?



See what I mean about "enigma"?

There's no enigma. The militia is bound to the right. The right is not bound to the militia.

The fact that you can't answer the question, affirms the enigma.

That's what an enigma is. It can't be figured out.

Ergo my point stands --- it's poorly written. A constitution is no place for riddles.
 
I don't think anyone is bound to anything, strictly speaking. I voted for Trump. So? My taxes are still are outrageous, and illegal aliens still rule the roost, and brother Davy that died in Korea is still dead, and so it goes. What does any of this solve?
 
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Funny.

The only people who think it's "poorly written" are those who want their misinterpretation accepted.

Fine -- then why don't you be the first person in the history of this nation, right here on USMB --- to essplain to the class why a Constitution would need to justify itself as if it's posting on a message board.

C'mon, hook a brutha up.

The Constitution requires no justification. The Founders wrote it quite clearly.

That's correct --- a constitution (any constitution) needs no justification. It is its own justification. Any argument for or against any part of it, would have been exercised in committee, BEFORE its final language was settled upon.

So --- that being the case upon which we are agreed --- what the fuck is the function of this phrase?



See what I mean about "enigma"?

There's no enigma. The militia is bound to the right. The right is not bound to the militia.

The fact that you can't answer the question, affirms the enigma.

That's what an enigma is. It can't be figured out.

Ergo my point stands --- it's poorly written. A constitution is no place for riddles.

I answered the question. That the answer eludes your understanding is not surprising.
 
Fine -- then why don't you be the first person in the history of this nation, right here on USMB --- to essplain to the class why a Constitution would need to justify itself as if it's posting on a message board.

C'mon, hook a brutha up.

The Constitution requires no justification. The Founders wrote it quite clearly.

That's correct --- a constitution (any constitution) needs no justification. It is its own justification. Any argument for or against any part of it, would have been exercised in committee, BEFORE its final language was settled upon.

So --- that being the case upon which we are agreed --- what the fuck is the function of this phrase?



See what I mean about "enigma"?

There's no enigma. The militia is bound to the right. The right is not bound to the militia.

The fact that you can't answer the question, affirms the enigma.

That's what an enigma is. It can't be figured out.

Ergo my point stands --- it's poorly written. A constitution is no place for riddles.

I answered the question. That the answer eludes your understanding is not surprising.

No, you did not. No one can answer it.
If it could be answered, it wouldn't be an enigma, now would it.

We already agreed a constitution has no need to argue its case. Yet here's a subordinate clause appearing to do just that. Clearly that cannot be its function, as no adversarial argue-party exists to "convince".

Since that cannot be its function --- what is?

No one knows. You don't know. I don't know. Don't nobody know.
But here's what we do know --- when a constitution contains an extraneous clause for no discernible reason, it's "poorly written". Unless you think that in writing the Constitution the Founders were simply playing word jumble games with us.
 
The Constitution requires no justification. The Founders wrote it quite clearly.

That's correct --- a constitution (any constitution) needs no justification. It is its own justification. Any argument for or against any part of it, would have been exercised in committee, BEFORE its final language was settled upon.

So --- that being the case upon which we are agreed --- what the fuck is the function of this phrase?



See what I mean about "enigma"?

There's no enigma. The militia is bound to the right. The right is not bound to the militia.

The fact that you can't answer the question, affirms the enigma.

That's what an enigma is. It can't be figured out.

Ergo my point stands --- it's poorly written. A constitution is no place for riddles.

I answered the question. That the answer eludes your understanding is not surprising.

No, you did not. No one can answer it.
If it could be answered, it wouldn't be an enigma, now would it.

We already agreed a constitution has no need to argue its case. Yet here's a subordinate clause appearing to do just that. Clearly that cannot be its function, as no adversarial argue-party exists to "convince".

Since that cannot be its function --- what is?

No one knows. You don't know. I don't know. Don't nobody know.

Your skull is like an ovum. Once an idea gets in, a shell forms and blocks all other entry.
 
That's correct --- a constitution (any constitution) needs no justification. It is its own justification. Any argument for or against any part of it, would have been exercised in committee, BEFORE its final language was settled upon.

So --- that being the case upon which we are agreed --- what the fuck is the function of this phrase?



See what I mean about "enigma"?

There's no enigma. The militia is bound to the right. The right is not bound to the militia.

The fact that you can't answer the question, affirms the enigma.

That's what an enigma is. It can't be figured out.

Ergo my point stands --- it's poorly written. A constitution is no place for riddles.

I answered the question. That the answer eludes your understanding is not surprising.

No, you did not. No one can answer it.
If it could be answered, it wouldn't be an enigma, now would it.

We already agreed a constitution has no need to argue its case. Yet here's a subordinate clause appearing to do just that. Clearly that cannot be its function, as no adversarial argue-party exists to "convince".

Since that cannot be its function --- what is?

No one knows. You don't know. I don't know. Don't nobody know.

Your skull is like an ovum. Once an idea gets in, a shell forms and blocks all other entry.

Number one, that still is not an answer to the enigma, and number two, you stole that metaphor from me.
 
Ergo my point stands --- it's poorly written. A constitution is no place for riddles.[/QUOTE]

I answered the question. That the answer eludes your understanding is not surprising.[/QUOTE]

No, you did not. No one can answer it.
If it could be answered, it wouldn't be an enigma, now would it.

We already agreed a constitution has no need to argue its case. Yet here's a subordinate clause appearing to do just that. Clearly that cannot be its function, as no adversarial argue-party exists to "convince".

Since that cannot be its function --- what is?

No one knows. You don't know. I don't know. Don't nobody know.[/QUOTE]

Your skull is like an ovum. Once an idea gets in, a shell forms and blocks all other entry.[/QUOTE]
Decorum, kids. Let's respect each other. If that isn't a Frank Reagan quote, it should be.
 
There's no enigma. The militia is bound to the right. The right is not bound to the militia.

The fact that you can't answer the question, affirms the enigma.

That's what an enigma is. It can't be figured out.

Ergo my point stands --- it's poorly written. A constitution is no place for riddles.

I answered the question. That the answer eludes your understanding is not surprising.

No, you did not. No one can answer it.
If it could be answered, it wouldn't be an enigma, now would it.

We already agreed a constitution has no need to argue its case. Yet here's a subordinate clause appearing to do just that. Clearly that cannot be its function, as no adversarial argue-party exists to "convince".

Since that cannot be its function --- what is?

No one knows. You don't know. I don't know. Don't nobody know.

Your skull is like an ovum. Once an idea gets in, a shell forms and blocks all other entry.

Number one, that still is not an answer to the enigma, and number two, you stole that metaphor from me.

That's nice, puppy. And I first used that metaphor 40-some years ago.

Now run along.
 
[QUO2nd amendment. TE="MaryL, post: 19871485, member: 34685"]
Punctuation is important in any legal document because it changes the meaning in one way or another.

The courts have ruled that in the 2nd amendment the second comma divides the amendment into two clauses: one 'prefatory' and the other 'operative.' The bit about a well-regulated militia is just preliminary throat clearing; the framers don't really get down to business until they start talking about 'the right of the people ... shall not be infringed,..

However, it is has also been successfully argued in court that the use of commas was far less restrictive in 18th century; that is writers liberally used commas between most all clauses thus the primary two clauses were a conditions for the operative clause, "shall not be infringed...".

One can argue this point either way but the fact is the 2nd amendment was a compromise between states who favored a strong standing army and states who simple wanted local militias. So just as today, the two sides could read the amendment as favoring their belief.

Today 60% of gun owners state that protection is the reason they purchased a gun. 38% said it was hunting. Those were certainly not the reasons the founders put the 2nd amendment in the Constitution. Guns in those days were muskets without a rear sight that were certainly not very useful for hunting or protection. There only really practical use was in being fired in volleys as in militias.

Unlike today, the approval of the 2nd amendment was not a news worthy event because most people had little interest in owning guns. Only 1 in every 5 households owned a musket and few people had any interest in buying one since the cost was 2 weeks to a months pay. They had no rear sights making them very inaccurate and loading time for most people was 30 seconds to a minute. Thus, a good knife or axe was much better self protection at a fraction of the cost of a musket.

"Unlike today, the approval of the 2nd amendment was not a news worthy event because most people had little interest in owning guns. Only 1 in every 5 households owned a musket and few people had any interest in buying one since the cost was 2 weeks to a months pay."

Source?

Coincidentally, there were no mass school shootings in the 1700's, No assault rifles, either. Thus proving what an anachronism the 2nd amendment has become.
Most murders were committed with knives, and -- contrary to the myth of primitive violence -- there were few murders outside Indian warfare (in North Carolina, on the average, there was only one murder every two years between 1663 and 1740).

There was only one recorded murder using a gun.

Spiking the Gun Myth


Most murders are committed by murders, it goes without saying. Knives I use evey day. cooking food, mostly. Knives are variable tools. What the hell do you do with guns? There within lies the question. You kill or train to kill. That's pretty much it. Who needs THAT?
The primary reason people have guns is to kill other people that have guns. The secondary reason is to kill animals. It's all about the need kill.
Well, I am good with not killing anything, animals or robbers. Or being killed , either by hoodlums with guns. Take away their guns, and they are just nothing...Taking away their guns, now there within lies the crux of the biscuit. We have maniacs that enable criminals that swear by their holier than thou sacrosanct 2nd Amendment. The Constitution has been amended before, so what's the big deal now?[/QUOTE]

Just let the criminals do what they want? And let invasive species of animals wreck the environment? Or have animals overpopulate due to lack of predation, and then die a slow death from starvation & disease? All so you can relax with a false sense of safety?
 
Imagine we repeal the 2nd amendment. If nobody had guns, we could relax. No more armed maniacs. We would all be on a even playing field more or less. Who, in there right mind, would oppose THAT?

Even playing field? Most men are a good bit stronger than the average woman. Most 20somethings are stronger than the average senior citizen. Not very even in my book.
 
Then the 2nd would have ended at the second comma, since it didn’t, it is expressing a right granted beyond the militia.
the punctuation changes nothing. you can remove all of it, and it means the same.

The punctuation means everything. It’s why the 2nd is in The Bill of Rights. Using your logic, the article would not be within the 1st 10 articles at all.

The 1st 10 outline individual rights, and the 2nd would be so out of place as to be laughable.

It would be like adding The History of the Ford Mustang within the Old Testament.

A really bad placement.

The founding fathers were not dumb.
that is Your story bro; the punctuation changes No Thing about Second Article of Amendment. Text is Every Thing.
Punctuation is important in any legal document because it changes the meaning in one way or another.

The courts have ruled that in the 2nd amendment the second comma divides the amendment into two clauses: one 'prefatory' and the other 'operative.' The bit about a well-regulated militia is just preliminary throat clearing; the framers don't really get down to business until they start talking about 'the right of the people ... shall not be infringed,..

However, it is has also been successfully argued in court that the use of commas was far less restrictive in 18th century; that is writers liberally used commas between most all clauses thus the primary two clauses were a conditions for the operative clause, "shall not be infringed...".

One can argue this point either way but the fact is the 2nd amendment was a compromise between states who favored a strong standing army and states who simple wanted local militias. So just as today, the two sides could read the amendment as favoring their belief.

Today 60% of gun owners state that protection is the reason they purchased a gun. 38% said it was hunting. Those were certainly not the reasons the founders put the 2nd amendment in the Constitution. Guns in those days were muskets without a rear sight that were certainly not very useful for hunting or protection. There only really practical use was in being fired in volleys as in militias.

Unlike today, the approval of the 2nd amendment was not a news worthy event because most people had little interest in owning guns. Only 1 in every 5 households owned a musket and few people had any interest in buying one since the cost was 2 weeks to a months pay. Most muskets were passed down from father to son and were not well maintained. In fact, a survey at the time done by a North Carolina militia found that over half were inoperable. They also had no rear sights making them very inaccurate and loading time for most people was 30 seconds to a minute. Thus, a good knife or axe was much better self protection at a fraction of the cost of a musket.

I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in punctuation from a 200+ year old document, and I'm a proofreader. Commas were used more or less indiscriminately in that less-linguistically refined period, which also displays the old German practice of capitalizing nouns ("Militia"... Security"... "State"... etc). Language evolves over time, and the "proper" use of a comma and what it means or doesn't mean wasn't nearly as meticulously defined as it came to be.

The adjective "prefatory" though, is pure absolute snow-job bullshit. All "prefatory" means is that it "comes before" or "introduces" another part (as in preface). We can already see that it come first, so "prefatory" tells us absolutely nothing of what its function is. And that's an enigma; the introductory phrase "a well regulated Militia being necessary to the Security of a free State" has no discernible reason to exist. A Constitution has no need to argue its case for why it sets out what it does; it simply declares "these are the rules". There's no point in rationalizing the Amendment as if it were part of some debate, nor does any other Amendment do so (nor should it), so the presence of the clause remains a head-scratcher.

Ultimately the presence of a subordinate clause that seems to want to argue its existence looks like either sloppy or unfinished work, or both. If it's intended as a limitation, which is the only conceivable direction it would have wanted to go, then it's poorly written as such.
To understand why the amendment was written as it was, you have to understand the political climate at the time. Some of the states were violently opposed to a standing army. They even passed laws to keep them out of their state. They believed voluntary militias should be used to defend the country The 2nd amendment was written to gain the support of those states. States in favor of militias interpreted the amendment to mean the federal government was guaranteeing that citizens would have right to bear arms so they could serve in the militia.

FYI, the Supreme Court overturned the DC gun control based on the fact that there was second comma in the 2nd amendment. So courts certain pay attention to punctuation because it changes the meaning of the text.
 
Then the 2nd would have ended at the second comma, since it didn’t, it is expressing a right granted beyond the militia.
the punctuation changes nothing. you can remove all of it, and it means the same.

The punctuation means everything. It’s why the 2nd is in The Bill of Rights. Using your logic, the article would not be within the 1st 10 articles at all.

The 1st 10 outline individual rights, and the 2nd would be so out of place as to be laughable.

It would be like adding The History of the Ford Mustang within the Old Testament.

A really bad placement.

The founding fathers were not dumb.
that is Your story bro; the punctuation changes No Thing about Second Article of Amendment. Text is Every Thing.
Punctuation is important in any legal document because it changes the meaning in one way or another.

The courts have ruled that in the 2nd amendment the second comma divides the amendment into two clauses: one 'prefatory' and the other 'operative.' The bit about a well-regulated militia is just preliminary throat clearing; the framers don't really get down to business until they start talking about 'the right of the people ... shall not be infringed,..

However, it is has also been successfully argued in court that the use of commas was far less restrictive in 18th century; that is writers liberally used commas between most all clauses thus the primary two clauses were a conditions for the operative clause, "shall not be infringed...".

One can argue this point either way but the fact is the 2nd amendment was a compromise between states who favored a strong standing army and states who simple wanted local militias. So just as today, the two sides could read the amendment as favoring their belief.

Today 60% of gun owners state that protection is the reason they purchased a gun. 38% said it was hunting. Those were certainly not the reasons the founders put the 2nd amendment in the Constitution. Guns in those days were muskets without a rear sight that were certainly not very useful for hunting or protection. There only really practical use was in being fired in volleys as in militias.

Unlike today, the approval of the 2nd amendment was not a news worthy event because most people had little interest in owning guns. Only 1 in every 5 households owned a musket and few people had any interest in buying one since the cost was 2 weeks to a months pay. Most muskets were passed down from father to son and were not well maintained. In fact, a survey at the time done by a North Carolina militia found that over half were inoperable. They also had no rear sights making them very inaccurate and loading time for most people was 30 seconds to a minute. Thus, a good knife or axe was much better self protection at a fraction of the cost of a musket.

I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in punctuation from a 200+ year old document, and I'm a proofreader. Commas were used more or less indiscriminately in that less-linguistically refined period, which also displays the old German practice of capitalizing nouns ("Militia"... Security"... "State"... etc). Language evolves over time, and the "proper" use of a comma and what it means or doesn't mean wasn't nearly as meticulously defined as it came to be.

The adjective "prefatory" though, is pure absolute snow-job bullshit. All "prefatory" means is that it "comes before" or "introduces" another part (as in preface). We can already see that it come first, so "prefatory" tells us absolutely nothing of what its function is. And that's an enigma; the introductory phrase "a well regulated Militia being necessary to the Security of a free State" has no discernible reason to exist. A Constitution has no need to argue its case for why it sets out what it does; it simply declares "these are the rules". There's no point in rationalizing the Amendment as if it were part of some debate, nor does any other Amendment do so (nor should it), so the presence of the clause remains a head-scratcher.

Ultimately the presence of a subordinate clause that seems to want to argue its existence looks like either sloppy or unfinished work, or both. If it's intended as a limitation, which is the only conceivable direction it would have wanted to go, then it's poorly written as such.

Lol, but that’s not what language experts say.

Then again, you’re a proof reader, so what the hell would they know?
 
The punctuation means everything. It’s why the 2nd is in The Bill of Rights. Using your logic, the article would not be within the 1st 10 articles at all.

The 1st 10 outline individual rights, and the 2nd would be so out of place as to be laughable.

It would be like adding The History of the Ford Mustang within the Old Testament.

A really bad placement.

The founding fathers were not dumb.
that is Your story bro; the punctuation changes No Thing about Second Article of Amendment. Text is Every Thing.
Punctuation is important in any legal document because it changes the meaning in one way or another.

The courts have ruled that in the 2nd amendment the second comma divides the amendment into two clauses: one 'prefatory' and the other 'operative.' The bit about a well-regulated militia is just preliminary throat clearing; the framers don't really get down to business until they start talking about 'the right of the people ... shall not be infringed,..

However, it is has also been successfully argued in court that the use of commas was far less restrictive in 18th century; that is writers liberally used commas between most all clauses thus the primary two clauses were a conditions for the operative clause, "shall not be infringed...".

One can argue this point either way but the fact is the 2nd amendment was a compromise between states who favored a strong standing army and states who simple wanted local militias. So just as today, the two sides could read the amendment as favoring their belief.

Today 60% of gun owners state that protection is the reason they purchased a gun. 38% said it was hunting. Those were certainly not the reasons the founders put the 2nd amendment in the Constitution. Guns in those days were muskets without a rear sight that were certainly not very useful for hunting or protection. There only really practical use was in being fired in volleys as in militias.

Unlike today, the approval of the 2nd amendment was not a news worthy event because most people had little interest in owning guns. Only 1 in every 5 households owned a musket and few people had any interest in buying one since the cost was 2 weeks to a months pay. Most muskets were passed down from father to son and were not well maintained. In fact, a survey at the time done by a North Carolina militia found that over half were inoperable. They also had no rear sights making them very inaccurate and loading time for most people was 30 seconds to a minute. Thus, a good knife or axe was much better self protection at a fraction of the cost of a musket.

I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in punctuation from a 200+ year old document, and I'm a proofreader. Commas were used more or less indiscriminately in that less-linguistically refined period, which also displays the old German practice of capitalizing nouns ("Militia"... Security"... "State"... etc). Language evolves over time, and the "proper" use of a comma and what it means or doesn't mean wasn't nearly as meticulously defined as it came to be.

The adjective "prefatory" though, is pure absolute snow-job bullshit. All "prefatory" means is that it "comes before" or "introduces" another part (as in preface). We can already see that it come first, so "prefatory" tells us absolutely nothing of what its function is. And that's an enigma; the introductory phrase "a well regulated Militia being necessary to the Security of a free State" has no discernible reason to exist. A Constitution has no need to argue its case for why it sets out what it does; it simply declares "these are the rules". There's no point in rationalizing the Amendment as if it were part of some debate, nor does any other Amendment do so (nor should it), so the presence of the clause remains a head-scratcher.

Ultimately the presence of a subordinate clause that seems to want to argue its existence looks like either sloppy or unfinished work, or both. If it's intended as a limitation, which is the only conceivable direction it would have wanted to go, then it's poorly written as such.

Funny.

The only people who think it's "poorly written" are those who want their misinterpretation accepted.

Fine -- then why don't you be the first person in the history of this nation, right here on USMB --- to essplain to the class why a Constitution would need to justify itself as if it's posting on a message board.

C'mon, hook a brutha up. "Prefatory" won't do it --- we already know WHERE the clause is. What we want to know is WHY it is.

As I said, I don't have an 'interpretation'. As I said, it's an enigma. Nobody has an interpretation. Hence --- "poorly written".

And as long as we're on the subject, a Court explaining it as a "prefatory" clause is also "poorly written". That's just unmitigated bullshit dancing around a question it can't answer either.

Then, you beg the question as to why it exists anyway, especially within the section of the document that outlines the rights of individuals.

Context my good man, context.
 
The Constitution requires no justification. The Founders wrote it quite clearly.

That's correct --- a constitution (any constitution) needs no justification. It is its own justification. Any argument for or against any part of it, would have been exercised in committee, BEFORE its final language was settled upon.

So --- that being the case upon which we are agreed --- what the fuck is the function of this phrase?



See what I mean about "enigma"?

There's no enigma. The militia is bound to the right. The right is not bound to the militia.

The fact that you can't answer the question, affirms the enigma.

That's what an enigma is. It can't be figured out.

Ergo my point stands --- it's poorly written. A constitution is no place for riddles.

I answered the question. That the answer eludes your understanding is not surprising.

No, you did not. No one can answer it.
If it could be answered, it wouldn't be an enigma, now would it.

We already agreed a constitution has no need to argue its case. Yet here's a subordinate clause appearing to do just that. Clearly that cannot be its function, as no adversarial argue-party exists to "convince".

Since that cannot be its function --- what is?

No one knows. You don't know. I don't know. Don't nobody know.
But here's what we do know --- when a constitution contains an extraneous clause for no discernible reason, it's "poorly written". Unless you think that in writing the Constitution the Founders were simply playing word jumble games with us.
Now we're talking about how well the constitution is written and were the founders playing word games. The right to bear arms depends on where the founders put a comma in the 2nd amendment according the courts. The guys who wrote the constitution had no idea how to run a country and for some strange reason we think they had great insight in how the country should be run over 200 years later. This is nuts.

The fact is we don't need a constitution as such. We need a bill of rights that guarantees freedoms and we need laws and rules for running the goverment. "Our obsession with the Constitution has saddled us with a dysfunctional political system, keeps us from debating the merits of divisive issues, and inflames public discourse. Instead of arguing about what is to be done, we argue about what James Madison might have wanted done 225 years ago. The whole process is bizarre.
 
I like guns overall, I do. But WE can do just fine without them too. Anyone here think their sole survival hinges on firearms ?


Sometimes it does, for those who live near the border of Mexico.
There are many local news stories of people defending themselves against robber's who cross the boarder illegally.
 
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