Evidence of Incitement

[AzogtheDefiler]

Trump's presidency was a miracle in itself, the biggest upset in US election history.

yeah.... Um, in the way that 9/11 and the Titanic hitting the iceberg were "miracles".

Hillary and the DNC actually colluded with and paid Russians for "dirt" on Trump, the "Steele Dossier". Obama used the power of the DOJ, FBI, CIA and other Federal agencies to illegally spy on and setup Trump for failure. Operations Crossfire Hurricane and Razor, the Mueller Investigation, Russian Collusion Hoax, the MSM's constant 95% negative coverage and "fake news", Never-Trump Republicans, the Lincoln Project, globalists of every stripe, the entrenched Deep State who all oppose Trump's policies, the planted leakers and whistle-blowers, and the RINOs who'd rather shill for K-Street than work for main street. Then add to all of that the outright hatred shown by the House democrats toward Trump, to the point of "non-crime" Impeachment Articles, twice!!

Actually, when you have that many people saying, "Putting this guy in is a terrible idea", it was probably a terrible idea.

Trump went out like a *****, but his presidency was remarkable, his list of accomplishments won't be matched.

Yeah, his list of accomplishments.

376,000 DEAD.
22 million sick
65 million jobs lost
First president since Hoover to lose jobs.
Only president to be impeached twice
Only one of three presidents to be impeached.
only one of five presidents to lose the popular vote
Only one of ten presidents to be voted out of office

Blaming Trump? Look again:
376,000 DEAD. China's worldwide covid pandemic, but you'd rather blame Trump than China,
22 million sick China's worldwide covid pandemic, but you'd rather blame Trump than China,
65 million jobs lost. China's worldwide covid pandemic, but you'd rather blame Trump than China,
First president since Hoover to lose jobs. China's worldwide covid pandemic, but you'd rather blame Trump than China,
Only president to be impeached twice By partisan democrats for non-crimes, with no GOP votes
Only one of three presidents to be impeached. By partisan democrats for non-crimes, with no GOP votes
only one of five presidents to lose the popular vote Trump won the Electoral College, which elects presidents, popular vote is irrelevant
Only one of ten presidents to be voted out of office By democrat voter fraud

When you deal with crazy people you go crazy yourself

 

[forkup]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

You want elections that people truly believe are legitimate? It's easy to do. You vote one of two ways! Either in person with a valid ID...or you vote by an absentee ballot that you're requested be sent to your address.

Let's be honest here. The reason the "optics" are so bad is that the process was changed because of politics to the point where people no longer TRUST it! Let's get back to elections that we can have faith in! Stop all the bullshit about voter exclusion. Secure the elections so we aren't counting votes for weeks afterwards and disputing counts as fraudulent.

The only reason the elections are considered fraudulent is because Trump has claimed they were in both election cycles. And the protest to voting by mail is equally started by Trump. It was encourag ed by the GOP before that.

I find it interesting that you guys all pretend this narrative started in a vacuum. I fail to see a reason why sending out ballots to the address of all eligible voters is deemed a security risk but requesting them isn't.

It is simply self serving.

As to voter trust being easy to accomplish. That's bs. Voter trust can only be accomplished if both sides accept that there's a possibility they'll lose. And before you start claiming that the Dems didn't accept 2016. Clinton conceded within hours once it became clear she lost. It was Trump who contested the results... even after he won. So don't pretend people will accept the results if you simply conduct the elections a certain way.

You don't see the difference between mailing out ballots to the address of all eligible voters from the last election and sending out absentee ballots to those who request them? Really? One is mailing blindly to an address that may or may not have that person still residing there. The other is mailing a ballot to a person that has requested it.

And no I don't because for every elaborate hypothetical you can imagine for voter fraud featuring universal mail in ballots I can come up with another one using mail ballots by request. I can even come up with hypotheticals featuring in person voting.

The way you judge these hypotheticals is if you can find evidence they occurred. I've not seen any, and more importantly neither has the Trump campaign since no suits like that have been filed.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

You want elections that people truly believe are legitimate? It's easy to do. You vote one of two ways! Either in person with a valid ID...or you vote by an absentee ballot that you're requested be sent to your address.

Let's be honest here. The reason the "optics" are so bad is that the process was changed because of politics to the point where people no longer TRUST it! Let's get back to elections that we can have faith in! Stop all the bullshit about voter exclusion. Secure the elections so we aren't counting votes for weeks afterwards and disputing counts as fraudulent.

The only reason the elections are considered fraudulent is because Trump has claimed they were in both election cycles. And the protest to voting by mail is equally started by Trump. It was encourag ed by the GOP before that.

I find it interesting that you guys all pretend this narrative started in a vacuum. I fail to see a reason why sending out ballots to the address of all eligible voters is deemed a security risk but requesting them isn't.

It is simply self serving.

As to voter trust being easy to accomplish. That's bs. Voter trust can only be accomplished if both sides accept that there's a possibility they'll lose. And before you start claiming that the Dems didn't accept 2016. Clinton conceded within hours once it became clear she lost. It was Trump who contested the results... even after he won. So don't pretend people will accept the results if you simply conduct the elections a certain way.

Excellent post

Just not factual. But why bother with facts?

 

[forkup]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

You want elections that people truly believe are legitimate? It's easy to do. You vote one of two ways! Either in person with a valid ID...or you vote by an absentee ballot that you're requested be sent to your address.

Let's be honest here. The reason the "optics" are so bad is that the process was changed because of politics to the point where people no longer TRUST it! Let's get back to elections that we can have faith in! Stop all the bullshit about voter exclusion. Secure the elections so we aren't counting votes for weeks afterwards and disputing counts as fraudulent.

The only reason the elections are considered fraudulent is because Trump has claimed they were in both election cycles. And the protest to voting by mail is equally started by Trump. It was encourag ed by the GOP before that.

I find it interesting that you guys all pretend this narrative started in a vacuum. I fail to see a reason why sending out ballots to the address of all eligible voters is deemed a security risk but requesting them isn't.

It is simply self serving.

As to voter trust being easy to accomplish. That's bs. Voter trust can only be accomplished if both sides accept that there's a possibility they'll lose. And before you start claiming that the Dems didn't accept 2016. Clinton conceded within hours once it became clear she lost. It was Trump who contested the results... even after he won. So don't pretend people will accept the results if you simply conduct the elections a certain way.

Excellent post

Just not factual. But why bother with facts?

Feel free to point out what isn't factual in your opinion.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

You want elections that people truly believe are legitimate? It's easy to do. You vote one of two ways! Either in person with a valid ID...or you vote by an absentee ballot that you're requested be sent to your address.

Let's be honest here. The reason the "optics" are so bad is that the process was changed because of politics to the point where people no longer TRUST it! Let's get back to elections that we can have faith in! Stop all the bullshit about voter exclusion. Secure the elections so we aren't counting votes for weeks afterwards and disputing counts as fraudulent.

The only reason the elections are considered fraudulent is because Trump has claimed they were in both election cycles. And the protest to voting by mail is equally started by Trump. It was encourag ed by the GOP before that.

I find it interesting that you guys all pretend this narrative started in a vacuum. I fail to see a reason why sending out ballots to the address of all eligible voters is deemed a security risk but requesting them isn't.

It is simply self serving.

As to voter trust being easy to accomplish. That's bs. Voter trust can only be accomplished if both sides accept that there's a possibility they'll lose. And before you start claiming that the Dems didn't accept 2016. Clinton conceded within hours once it became clear she lost. It was Trump who contested the results... even after he won. So don't pretend people will accept the results if you simply conduct the elections a certain way.

You don't see the difference between mailing out ballots to the address of all eligible voters from the last election and sending out absentee ballots to those who request them? Really? One is mailing blindly to an address that may or may not have that person still residing there. The other is mailing a ballot to a person that has requested it.

And no I don't because for every elaborate hypothetical you can imagine for voter fraud featering universal mail in ballots I can come up with another one using mail ballots by request. I can even come up with hypotheticals featuring in person voting.

The way you judge these hypotheticals is if you can find evidence they occurred. I've not seen any, and more importantly neither has the Trump campaign since no suits like that have been filed.

LMaO. Have you convinced yourself yet? You are super long winded and illogical. So in your mind, voting my mail is just as fraud proof as voting in person? Is that your final answer? And yes, people
Commit voter fraud all the time. When I vote in person I see my vote processed in the machine. My mail in may be thrown away if they don’t like what I chose there. Funny how 90% of mail ins are for Democrats in swing states. Nothing to see here folks...

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

You want elections that people truly believe are legitimate? It's easy to do. You vote one of two ways! Either in person with a valid ID...or you vote by an absentee ballot that you're requested be sent to your address.

Let's be honest here. The reason the "optics" are so bad is that the process was changed because of politics to the point where people no longer TRUST it! Let's get back to elections that we can have faith in! Stop all the bullshit about voter exclusion. Secure the elections so we aren't counting votes for weeks afterwards and disputing counts as fraudulent.

The only reason the elections are considered fraudulent is because Trump has claimed they were in both election cycles. And the protest to voting by mail is equally started by Trump. It was encourag ed by the GOP before that.

I find it interesting that you guys all pretend this narrative started in a vacuum. I fail to see a reason why sending out ballots to the address of all eligible voters is deemed a security risk but requesting them isn't.

It is simply self serving.

As to voter trust being easy to accomplish. That's bs. Voter trust can only be accomplished if both sides accept that there's a possibility they'll lose. And before you start claiming that the Dems didn't accept 2016. Clinton conceded within hours once it became clear she lost. It was Trump who contested the results... even after he won. So don't pretend people will accept the results if you simply conduct the elections a certain way.

Excellent post

Just not factual. But why bother with facts?

Feel free to point out what isn't factual in your opinion.

I have. Your logic is so warped it’s laughable. Forget politics. Mailing anything is not going to be as secure as delivering something in person. Sorry.

 

[forkup]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

You want elections that people truly believe are legitimate? It's easy to do. You vote one of two ways! Either in person with a valid ID...or you vote by an absentee ballot that you're requested be sent to your address.

Let's be honest here. The reason the "optics" are so bad is that the process was changed because of politics to the point where people no longer TRUST it! Let's get back to elections that we can have faith in! Stop all the bullshit about voter exclusion. Secure the elections so we aren't counting votes for weeks afterwards and disputing counts as fraudulent.

The only reason the elections are considered fraudulent is because Trump has claimed they were in both election cycles. And the protest to voting by mail is equally started by Trump. It was encourag ed by the GOP before that.

I find it interesting that you guys all pretend this narrative started in a vacuum. I fail to see a reason why sending out ballots to the address of all eligible voters is deemed a security risk but requesting them isn't.

It is simply self serving.

As to voter trust being easy to accomplish. That's bs. Voter trust can only be accomplished if both sides accept that there's a possibility they'll lose. And before you start claiming that the Dems didn't accept 2016. Clinton conceded within hours once it became clear she lost. It was Trump who contested the results... even after he won. So don't pretend people will accept the results if you simply conduct the elections a certain way.

You don't see the difference between mailing out ballots to the address of all eligible voters from the last election and sending out absentee ballots to those who request them? Really? One is mailing blindly to an address that may or may not have that person still residing there. The other is mailing a ballot to a person that has requested it.

And no I don't because for every elaborate hypothetical you can imagine for voter fraud featering universal mail in ballots I can come up with another one using mail ballots by request. I can even come up with hypotheticals featuring in person voting.

The way you judge these hypotheticals is if you can find evidence they occurred. I've not seen any, and more importantly neither has the Trump campaign since no suits like that have been filed.

LMaO. Have you convinced yourself yet? You are super long winded and illogical. So in your mind, voting my mail is just as fraud proof as voting in person? Is that your final answer? And yes, people
Commit voter fraud all the time. When I vote in person I see my vote processed in the machine. My mail in may be thrown away if they don’t like what I chose there. Funny how 90% of mail ins are for Democrats in swing states. Nothing to see here folks...

I don't need to convince myself. I just need to look at the available evidence, or lack of more precisely. It is you who has to convince himself that lack of evidence in no way says anything about reality.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

You want elections that people truly believe are legitimate? It's easy to do. You vote one of two ways! Either in person with a valid ID...or you vote by an absentee ballot that you're requested be sent to your address.

Let's be honest here. The reason the "optics" are so bad is that the process was changed because of politics to the point where people no longer TRUST it! Let's get back to elections that we can have faith in! Stop all the bullshit about voter exclusion. Secure the elections so we aren't counting votes for weeks afterwards and disputing counts as fraudulent.

The only reason the elections are considered fraudulent is because Trump has claimed they were in both election cycles. And the protest to voting by mail is equally started by Trump. It was encourag ed by the GOP before that.

I find it interesting that you guys all pretend this narrative started in a vacuum. I fail to see a reason why sending out ballots to the address of all eligible voters is deemed a security risk but requesting them isn't.

It is simply self serving.

As to voter trust being easy to accomplish. That's bs. Voter trust can only be accomplished if both sides accept that there's a possibility they'll lose. And before you start claiming that the Dems didn't accept 2016. Clinton conceded within hours once it became clear she lost. It was Trump who contested the results... even after he won. So don't pretend people will accept the results if you simply conduct the elections a certain way.

You don't see the difference between mailing out ballots to the address of all eligible voters from the last election and sending out absentee ballots to those who request them? Really? One is mailing blindly to an address that may or may not have that person still residing there. The other is mailing a ballot to a person that has requested it.

And no I don't because for every elaborate hypothetical you can imagine for voter fraud featering universal mail in ballots I can come up with another one using mail ballots by request. I can even come up with hypotheticals featuring in person voting.

The way you judge these hypotheticals is if you can find evidence they occurred. I've not seen any, and more importantly neither has the Trump campaign since no suits like that have been filed.

LMaO. Have you convinced yourself yet? You are super long winded and illogical. So in your mind, voting my mail is just as fraud proof as voting in person? Is that your final answer? And yes, people
Commit voter fraud all the time. When I vote in person I see my vote processed in the machine. My mail in may be thrown away if they don’t like what I chose there. Funny how 90% of mail ins are for Democrats in swing states. Nothing to see here folks...

I don't need to convince myself. I just need to look at the available evidence, or lack of more precisely. It is you who has to convince himself that lack of evidence in no way says anything about reality.

Yeah let’s believe our politicians. So let’s say my daughter needed a chrome book for school. She did. I could Order one online and it would come in the day before she needed it. Or I could pick it up that day. Hmmmm what to do....trust the mail and make sure it comes in as promised and works or go to the store and get it immediately?

I got it immediately of course since that gave me more surety. Voting in person has considerably less fraud opportunities. So that’s how we should be voting.

 

[forkup]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

You want elections that people truly believe are legitimate? It's easy to do. You vote one of two ways! Either in person with a valid ID...or you vote by an absentee ballot that you're requested be sent to your address.

Let's be honest here. The reason the "optics" are so bad is that the process was changed because of politics to the point where people no longer TRUST it! Let's get back to elections that we can have faith in! Stop all the bullshit about voter exclusion. Secure the elections so we aren't counting votes for weeks afterwards and disputing counts as fraudulent.

The only reason the elections are considered fraudulent is because Trump has claimed they were in both election cycles. And the protest to voting by mail is equally started by Trump. It was encourag ed by the GOP before that.

I find it interesting that you guys all pretend this narrative started in a vacuum. I fail to see a reason why sending out ballots to the address of all eligible voters is deemed a security risk but requesting them isn't.

It is simply self serving.

As to voter trust being easy to accomplish. That's bs. Voter trust can only be accomplished if both sides accept that there's a possibility they'll lose. And before you start claiming that the Dems didn't accept 2016. Clinton conceded within hours once it became clear she lost. It was Trump who contested the results... even after he won. So don't pretend people will accept the results if you simply conduct the elections a certain way.

You don't see the difference between mailing out ballots to the address of all eligible voters from the last election and sending out absentee ballots to those who request them? Really? One is mailing blindly to an address that may or may not have that person still residing there. The other is mailing a ballot to a person that has requested it.

And no I don't because for every elaborate hypothetical you can imagine for voter fraud featering universal mail in ballots I can come up with another one using mail ballots by request. I can even come up with hypotheticals featuring in person voting.

The way you judge these hypotheticals is if you can find evidence they occurred. I've not seen any, and more importantly neither has the Trump campaign since no suits like that have been filed.

LMaO. Have you convinced yourself yet? You are super long winded and illogical. So in your mind, voting my mail is just as fraud proof as voting in person? Is that your final answer? And yes, people
Commit voter fraud all the time. When I vote in person I see my vote processed in the machine. My mail in may be thrown away if they don’t like what I chose there. Funny how 90% of mail ins are for Democrats in swing states. Nothing to see here folks...

I don't need to convince myself. I just need to look at the available evidence, or lack of more precisely. It is you who has to convince himself that lack of evidence in no way says anything about reality.

Yeah let’s believe our politicians. So let’s say my daughter needed a chrome book for school. She did. I could Order one online and it would come in the day before she needed it. Or I could pick it up that day. Hmmmm what to do....trust the mail and make sure it comes in as promised and works or go to the store and get it immediately?

I got it immediately of course since that gave me more surety. Voting in person has considerably less fraud opportunities. So that’s how we should be voting.

I don't need to believe any politician. The only people I need to believe is the judges who are charged with ruling over election disputes. Who do you believe?

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

You want elections that people truly believe are legitimate? It's easy to do. You vote one of two ways! Either in person with a valid ID...or you vote by an absentee ballot that you're requested be sent to your address.

Let's be honest here. The reason the "optics" are so bad is that the process was changed because of politics to the point where people no longer TRUST it! Let's get back to elections that we can have faith in! Stop all the bullshit about voter exclusion. Secure the elections so we aren't counting votes for weeks afterwards and disputing counts as fraudulent.

The only reason the elections are considered fraudulent is because Trump has claimed they were in both election cycles. And the protest to voting by mail is equally started by Trump. It was encourag ed by the GOP before that.

I find it interesting that you guys all pretend this narrative started in a vacuum. I fail to see a reason why sending out ballots to the address of all eligible voters is deemed a security risk but requesting them isn't.

It is simply self serving.

As to voter trust being easy to accomplish. That's bs. Voter trust can only be accomplished if both sides accept that there's a possibility they'll lose. And before you start claiming that the Dems didn't accept 2016. Clinton conceded within hours once it became clear she lost. It was Trump who contested the results... even after he won. So don't pretend people will accept the results if you simply conduct the elections a certain way.

You don't see the difference between mailing out ballots to the address of all eligible voters from the last election and sending out absentee ballots to those who request them? Really? One is mailing blindly to an address that may or may not have that person still residing there. The other is mailing a ballot to a person that has requested it.

And no I don't because for every elaborate hypothetical you can imagine for voter fraud featering universal mail in ballots I can come up with another one using mail ballots by request. I can even come up with hypotheticals featuring in person voting.

The way you judge these hypotheticals is if you can find evidence they occurred. I've not seen any, and more importantly neither has the Trump campaign since no suits like that have been filed.

LMaO. Have you convinced yourself yet? You are super long winded and illogical. So in your mind, voting my mail is just as fraud proof as voting in person? Is that your final answer? And yes, people
Commit voter fraud all the time. When I vote in person I see my vote processed in the machine. My mail in may be thrown away if they don’t like what I chose there. Funny how 90% of mail ins are for Democrats in swing states. Nothing to see here folks...

I don't need to convince myself. I just need to look at the available evidence, or lack of more precisely. It is you who has to convince himself that lack of evidence in no way says anything about reality.

Yeah let’s believe our politicians. So let’s say my daughter needed a chrome book for school. She did. I could Order one online and it would come in the day before she needed it. Or I could pick it up that day. Hmmmm what to do....trust the mail and make sure it comes in as promised and works or go to the store and get it immediately?

I got it immediately of course since that gave me more surety. Voting in person has considerably less fraud opportunities. So that’s how we should be voting.

I don't need to believe any politician. The only people I need to believe is the judges who are charged with ruling over election disputes. Whom do you believe?

How about some common sense? Do you or do you not agree that in person voting is more secure than mail in ballots? Why do you keep avoiding answering that question?

 

[forkup]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

You want elections that people truly believe are legitimate? It's easy to do. You vote one of two ways! Either in person with a valid ID...or you vote by an absentee ballot that you're requested be sent to your address.

Let's be honest here. The reason the "optics" are so bad is that the process was changed because of politics to the point where people no longer TRUST it! Let's get back to elections that we can have faith in! Stop all the bullshit about voter exclusion. Secure the elections so we aren't counting votes for weeks afterwards and disputing counts as fraudulent.

The only reason the elections are considered fraudulent is because Trump has claimed they were in both election cycles. And the protest to voting by mail is equally started by Trump. It was encourag ed by the GOP before that.

I find it interesting that you guys all pretend this narrative started in a vacuum. I fail to see a reason why sending out ballots to the address of all eligible voters is deemed a security risk but requesting them isn't.

It is simply self serving.

As to voter trust being easy to accomplish. That's bs. Voter trust can only be accomplished if both sides accept that there's a possibility they'll lose. And before you start claiming that the Dems didn't accept 2016. Clinton conceded within hours once it became clear she lost. It was Trump who contested the results... even after he won. So don't pretend people will accept the results if you simply conduct the elections a certain way.

You don't see the difference between mailing out ballots to the address of all eligible voters from the last election and sending out absentee ballots to those who request them? Really? One is mailing blindly to an address that may or may not have that person still residing there. The other is mailing a ballot to a person that has requested it.

And no I don't because for every elaborate hypothetical you can imagine for voter fraud featering universal mail in ballots I can come up with another one using mail ballots by request. I can even come up with hypotheticals featuring in person voting.

The way you judge these hypotheticals is if you can find evidence they occurred. I've not seen any, and more importantly neither has the Trump campaign since no suits like that have been filed.

LMaO. Have you convinced yourself yet? You are super long winded and illogical. So in your mind, voting my mail is just as fraud proof as voting in person? Is that your final answer? And yes, people
Commit voter fraud all the time. When I vote in person I see my vote processed in the machine. My mail in may be thrown away if they don’t like what I chose there. Funny how 90% of mail ins are for Democrats in swing states. Nothing to see here folks...

I don't need to convince myself. I just need to look at the available evidence, or lack of more precisely. It is you who has to convince himself that lack of evidence in no way says anything about reality.

Yeah let’s believe our politicians. So let’s say my daughter needed a chrome book for school. She did. I could Order one online and it would come in the day before she needed it. Or I could pick it up that day. Hmmmm what to do....trust the mail and make sure it comes in as promised and works or go to the store and get it immediately?

I got it immediately of course since that gave me more surety. Voting in person has considerably less fraud opportunities. So that’s how we should be voting.

I don't need to believe any politician. The only people I need to believe is the judges who are charged with ruling over election disputes. Whom do you believe?

How about some common sense? Do you or do you not agree that in person voting is more secure than mail in ballots? Why do you keep avoiding answering that question?

Brings me right back to what I said. You have an opinion and to sustain that opinion you feel warranted to ignore a complete lack of evidence.

As to your question. Probably yes. On the other hand if you feel that a few cases of hypothetical voter fraud warrants millions fewer people who vote why not just forget about voting in its entirety? That way absolutely no voter fraud is possible.

Unless and until you can make a case that this particular way of voting has a meaningful impact on not just voter fraud but elections in its entirety the argument simply falls flat.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

You want elections that people truly believe are legitimate? It's easy to do. You vote one of two ways! Either in person with a valid ID...or you vote by an absentee ballot that you're requested be sent to your address.

Let's be honest here. The reason the "optics" are so bad is that the process was changed because of politics to the point where people no longer TRUST it! Let's get back to elections that we can have faith in! Stop all the bullshit about voter exclusion. Secure the elections so we aren't counting votes for weeks afterwards and disputing counts as fraudulent.

The only reason the elections are considered fraudulent is because Trump has claimed they were in both election cycles. And the protest to voting by mail is equally started by Trump. It was encourag ed by the GOP before that.

I find it interesting that you guys all pretend this narrative started in a vacuum. I fail to see a reason why sending out ballots to the address of all eligible voters is deemed a security risk but requesting them isn't.

It is simply self serving.

As to voter trust being easy to accomplish. That's bs. Voter trust can only be accomplished if both sides accept that there's a possibility they'll lose. And before you start claiming that the Dems didn't accept 2016. Clinton conceded within hours once it became clear she lost. It was Trump who contested the results... even after he won. So don't pretend people will accept the results if you simply conduct the elections a certain way.

You don't see the difference between mailing out ballots to the address of all eligible voters from the last election and sending out absentee ballots to those who request them? Really? One is mailing blindly to an address that may or may not have that person still residing there. The other is mailing a ballot to a person that has requested it.

And no I don't because for every elaborate hypothetical you can imagine for voter fraud featering universal mail in ballots I can come up with another one using mail ballots by request. I can even come up with hypotheticals featuring in person voting.

The way you judge these hypotheticals is if you can find evidence they occurred. I've not seen any, and more importantly neither has the Trump campaign since no suits like that have been filed.

LMaO. Have you convinced yourself yet? You are super long winded and illogical. So in your mind, voting my mail is just as fraud proof as voting in person? Is that your final answer? And yes, people
Commit voter fraud all the time. When I vote in person I see my vote processed in the machine. My mail in may be thrown away if they don’t like what I chose there. Funny how 90% of mail ins are for Democrats in swing states. Nothing to see here folks...

I don't need to convince myself. I just need to look at the available evidence, or lack of more precisely. It is you who has to convince himself that lack of evidence in no way says anything about reality.

Yeah let’s believe our politicians. So let’s say my daughter needed a chrome book for school. She did. I could Order one online and it would come in the day before she needed it. Or I could pick it up that day. Hmmmm what to do....trust the mail and make sure it comes in as promised and works or go to the store and get it immediately?

I got it immediately of course since that gave me more surety. Voting in person has considerably less fraud opportunities. So that’s how we should be voting.

I don't need to believe any politician. The only people I need to believe is the judges who are charged with ruling over election disputes. Whom do you believe?

How about some common sense? Do you or do you not agree that in person voting is more secure than mail in ballots? Why do you keep avoiding answering that question?

Brings me right back to what I said. You have an opinion and to sustain that opinion you feel warranted to ignore a complete lack of evidence.

As to your question. Probably yes. On the other hand if you feel that a few cases of hypothetical voter fraud warrants millions fewer people who vote why not just forget about voting in its entirety? That way absolutely no voter fraud is possible.

Unless and until you can make a case that this particular way of voting has a meaningful impact on not just voter fraud but elections in its entirety the argument simply falls flat.

So the answer is YES. Not probably yes. That is my only issue with it. In person voting is of course more secure and optics are just better. Mail in voting may be fine but the optics say otherwise. As I gave you the example with my oldest, when something is 100% necessary you make sure you go the safest route. In her case it was picking up the laptop in person. It likely would have arrived fine in the mail but why take such a risk. Same with voting. While it likely may be fine, why take such a risk on something that important. If there were very few mail in ballots then no one would spout conspiracy theories.

 

[Bobob]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

You want elections that people truly believe are legitimate? It's easy to do. You vote one of two ways! Either in person with a valid ID...or you vote by an absentee ballot that you're requested be sent to your address.

Let's be honest here. The reason the "optics" are so bad is that the process was changed because of politics to the point where people no longer TRUST it! Let's get back to elections that we can have faith in! Stop all the bullshit about voter exclusion. Secure the elections so we aren't counting votes for weeks afterwards and disputing counts as fraudulent.

The only reason the elections are considered fraudulent is because Trump has claimed they were in both election cycles. And the protest to voting by mail is equally started by Trump. It was encourag ed by the GOP before that.

I find it interesting that you guys all pretend this narrative started in a vacuum. I fail to see a reason why sending out ballots to the address of all eligible voters is deemed a security risk but requesting them isn't.

It is simply self serving.

As to voter trust being easy to accomplish. That's bs. Voter trust can only be accomplished if both sides accept that there's a possibility they'll lose. And before you start claiming that the Dems didn't accept 2016. Clinton conceded within hours once it became clear she lost. It was Trump who contested the results... even after he won. So don't pretend people will accept the results if you simply conduct the elections a certain way.

You don't see the difference between mailing out ballots to the address of all eligible voters from the last election and sending out absentee ballots to those who request them? Really? One is mailing blindly to an address that may or may not have that person still residing there. The other is mailing a ballot to a person that has requested it.

And no I don't because for every elaborate hypothetical you can imagine for voter fraud featering universal mail in ballots I can come up with another one using mail ballots by request. I can even come up with hypotheticals featuring in person voting.

The way you judge these hypotheticals is if you can find evidence they occurred. I've not seen any, and more importantly neither has the Trump campaign since no suits like that have been filed.

LMaO. Have you convinced yourself yet? You are super long winded and illogical. So in your mind, voting my mail is just as fraud proof as voting in person? Is that your final answer? And yes, people
Commit voter fraud all the time. When I vote in person I see my vote processed in the machine. My mail in may be thrown away if they don’t like what I chose there. Funny how 90% of mail ins are for Democrats in swing states. Nothing to see here folks...

I don't need to convince myself. I just need to look at the available evidence, or lack of more precisely. It is you who has to convince himself that lack of evidence in no way says anything about reality.

Yeah let’s believe our politicians. So let’s say my daughter needed a chrome book for school. She did. I could Order one online and it would come in the day before she needed it. Or I could pick it up that day. Hmmmm what to do....trust the mail and make sure it comes in as promised and works or go to the store and get it immediately?

I got it immediately of course since that gave me more surety. Voting in person has considerably less fraud opportunities. So that’s how we should be voting.

I don't need to believe any politician. The only people I need to believe is the judges who are charged with ruling over election disputes. Whom do you believe?

How about some common sense? Do you or do you not agree that in person voting is more secure than mail in ballots? Why do you keep avoiding answering that question?

Brings me right back to what I said. You have an opinion and to sustain that opinion you feel warranted to ignore a complete lack of evidence.

As to your question. Probably yes. On the other hand if you feel that a few cases of hypothetical voter fraud warrants millions fewer people who vote why not just forget about voting in its entirety? That way absolutely no voter fraud is possible.

Unless and until you can make a case that this particular way of voting has a meaningful impact on not just voter fraud but elections in its entirety the argument simply falls flat.

So the answer is YES. Not probably yes. That is my only issue with it. In person voting is of course more secure and optics are just better. Mail in voting may be fine but the optics say otherwise. As I gave you the example with my oldest, when something is 100% necessary you make sure you go the safest route. In her case it was picking up the laptop in person. It likely would have arrived fine in the mail but why take such a risk. Same with voting. While it likely may be fine, why take such a risk on something that important. If there were very few mail in ballots then no one would spout conspiracy theories.

People resorted to mail-in ballots due to fear of the virus and Trump's attack on the Postal Service--hiring a supporter with no experience to head the Postal Service and do his bidding, eliminating overtime, removing voter machines and mailboxes. He did all this in his effort to steal the election by suppressing voters.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

You want elections that people truly believe are legitimate? It's easy to do. You vote one of two ways! Either in person with a valid ID...or you vote by an absentee ballot that you're requested be sent to your address.

Let's be honest here. The reason the "optics" are so bad is that the process was changed because of politics to the point where people no longer TRUST it! Let's get back to elections that we can have faith in! Stop all the bullshit about voter exclusion. Secure the elections so we aren't counting votes for weeks afterwards and disputing counts as fraudulent.

The only reason the elections are considered fraudulent is because Trump has claimed they were in both election cycles. And the protest to voting by mail is equally started by Trump. It was encourag ed by the GOP before that.

I find it interesting that you guys all pretend this narrative started in a vacuum. I fail to see a reason why sending out ballots to the address of all eligible voters is deemed a security risk but requesting them isn't.

It is simply self serving.

As to voter trust being easy to accomplish. That's bs. Voter trust can only be accomplished if both sides accept that there's a possibility they'll lose. And before you start claiming that the Dems didn't accept 2016. Clinton conceded within hours once it became clear she lost. It was Trump who contested the results... even after he won. So don't pretend people will accept the results if you simply conduct the elections a certain way.

You don't see the difference between mailing out ballots to the address of all eligible voters from the last election and sending out absentee ballots to those who request them? Really? One is mailing blindly to an address that may or may not have that person still residing there. The other is mailing a ballot to a person that has requested it.

And no I don't because for every elaborate hypothetical you can imagine for voter fraud featering universal mail in ballots I can come up with another one using mail ballots by request. I can even come up with hypotheticals featuring in person voting.

The way you judge these hypotheticals is if you can find evidence they occurred. I've not seen any, and more importantly neither has the Trump campaign since no suits like that have been filed.

LMaO. Have you convinced yourself yet? You are super long winded and illogical. So in your mind, voting my mail is just as fraud proof as voting in person? Is that your final answer? And yes, people
Commit voter fraud all the time. When I vote in person I see my vote processed in the machine. My mail in may be thrown away if they don’t like what I chose there. Funny how 90% of mail ins are for Democrats in swing states. Nothing to see here folks...

I don't need to convince myself. I just need to look at the available evidence, or lack of more precisely. It is you who has to convince himself that lack of evidence in no way says anything about reality.

Yeah let’s believe our politicians. So let’s say my daughter needed a chrome book for school. She did. I could Order one online and it would come in the day before she needed it. Or I could pick it up that day. Hmmmm what to do....trust the mail and make sure it comes in as promised and works or go to the store and get it immediately?

I got it immediately of course since that gave me more surety. Voting in person has considerably less fraud opportunities. So that’s how we should be voting.

I don't need to believe any politician. The only people I need to believe is the judges who are charged with ruling over election disputes. Whom do you believe?

How about some common sense? Do you or do you not agree that in person voting is more secure than mail in ballots? Why do you keep avoiding answering that question?

Brings me right back to what I said. You have an opinion and to sustain that opinion you feel warranted to ignore a complete lack of evidence.

As to your question. Probably yes. On the other hand if you feel that a few cases of hypothetical voter fraud warrants millions fewer people who vote why not just forget about voting in its entirety? That way absolutely no voter fraud is possible.

Unless and until you can make a case that this particular way of voting has a meaningful impact on not just voter fraud but elections in its entirety the argument simply falls flat.

So the answer is YES. Not probably yes. That is my only issue with it. In person voting is of course more secure and optics are just better. Mail in voting may be fine but the optics say otherwise. As I gave you the example with my oldest, when something is 100% necessary you make sure you go the safest route. In her case it was picking up the laptop in person. It likely would have arrived fine in the mail but why take such a risk. Same with voting. While it likely may be fine, why take such a risk on something that important. If there were very few mail in ballots then no one would spout conspiracy theories.

People resorted to mail-in ballots due to fear of the virus and Trump's attack on the Postal Service--hiring a supporter with no experience to head the Postal Service and do his bidding, eliminating overtime, removing voter machines and mailboxes. He did all this in his effort to steal the election by suppressing voters.

If they fear the virus then they also aren't going grocery shopping? Again forget Trump. Your TDS is amusing. In general is it or is it not more secure to vote in person? Yes or no?

 

[Bobob]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

You want elections that people truly believe are legitimate? It's easy to do. You vote one of two ways! Either in person with a valid ID...or you vote by an absentee ballot that you're requested be sent to your address.

Let's be honest here. The reason the "optics" are so bad is that the process was changed because of politics to the point where people no longer TRUST it! Let's get back to elections that we can have faith in! Stop all the bullshit about voter exclusion. Secure the elections so we aren't counting votes for weeks afterwards and disputing counts as fraudulent.

The only reason the elections are considered fraudulent is because Trump has claimed they were in both election cycles. And the protest to voting by mail is equally started by Trump. It was encourag ed by the GOP before that.

I find it interesting that you guys all pretend this narrative started in a vacuum. I fail to see a reason why sending out ballots to the address of all eligible voters is deemed a security risk but requesting them isn't.

It is simply self serving.

As to voter trust being easy to accomplish. That's bs. Voter trust can only be accomplished if both sides accept that there's a possibility they'll lose. And before you start claiming that the Dems didn't accept 2016. Clinton conceded within hours once it became clear she lost. It was Trump who contested the results... even after he won. So don't pretend people will accept the results if you simply conduct the elections a certain way.

You don't see the difference between mailing out ballots to the address of all eligible voters from the last election and sending out absentee ballots to those who request them? Really? One is mailing blindly to an address that may or may not have that person still residing there. The other is mailing a ballot to a person that has requested it.

And no I don't because for every elaborate hypothetical you can imagine for voter fraud featering universal mail in ballots I can come up with another one using mail ballots by request. I can even come up with hypotheticals featuring in person voting.

The way you judge these hypotheticals is if you can find evidence they occurred. I've not seen any, and more importantly neither has the Trump campaign since no suits like that have been filed.

LMaO. Have you convinced yourself yet? You are super long winded and illogical. So in your mind, voting my mail is just as fraud proof as voting in person? Is that your final answer? And yes, people
Commit voter fraud all the time. When I vote in person I see my vote processed in the machine. My mail in may be thrown away if they don’t like what I chose there. Funny how 90% of mail ins are for Democrats in swing states. Nothing to see here folks...

I don't need to convince myself. I just need to look at the available evidence, or lack of more precisely. It is you who has to convince himself that lack of evidence in no way says anything about reality.

Yeah let’s believe our politicians. So let’s say my daughter needed a chrome book for school. She did. I could Order one online and it would come in the day before she needed it. Or I could pick it up that day. Hmmmm what to do....trust the mail and make sure it comes in as promised and works or go to the store and get it immediately?

I got it immediately of course since that gave me more surety. Voting in person has considerably less fraud opportunities. So that’s how we should be voting.

I don't need to believe any politician. The only people I need to believe is the judges who are charged with ruling over election disputes. Whom do you believe?

How about some common sense? Do you or do you not agree that in person voting is more secure than mail in ballots? Why do you keep avoiding answering that question?

Of course it is, but mail-in ballots were unavoidable due to Trump's efforts to suppress the Postal Service and fear of the virus. No doubt.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

You want elections that people truly believe are legitimate? It's easy to do. You vote one of two ways! Either in person with a valid ID...or you vote by an absentee ballot that you're requested be sent to your address.

Let's be honest here. The reason the "optics" are so bad is that the process was changed because of politics to the point where people no longer TRUST it! Let's get back to elections that we can have faith in! Stop all the bullshit about voter exclusion. Secure the elections so we aren't counting votes for weeks afterwards and disputing counts as fraudulent.

The only reason the elections are considered fraudulent is because Trump has claimed they were in both election cycles. And the protest to voting by mail is equally started by Trump. It was encourag ed by the GOP before that.

I find it interesting that you guys all pretend this narrative started in a vacuum. I fail to see a reason why sending out ballots to the address of all eligible voters is deemed a security risk but requesting them isn't.

It is simply self serving.

As to voter trust being easy to accomplish. That's bs. Voter trust can only be accomplished if both sides accept that there's a possibility they'll lose. And before you start claiming that the Dems didn't accept 2016. Clinton conceded within hours once it became clear she lost. It was Trump who contested the results... even after he won. So don't pretend people will accept the results if you simply conduct the elections a certain way.

You don't see the difference between mailing out ballots to the address of all eligible voters from the last election and sending out absentee ballots to those who request them? Really? One is mailing blindly to an address that may or may not have that person still residing there. The other is mailing a ballot to a person that has requested it.

And no I don't because for every elaborate hypothetical you can imagine for voter fraud featering universal mail in ballots I can come up with another one using mail ballots by request. I can even come up with hypotheticals featuring in person voting.

The way you judge these hypotheticals is if you can find evidence they occurred. I've not seen any, and more importantly neither has the Trump campaign since no suits like that have been filed.

LMaO. Have you convinced yourself yet? You are super long winded and illogical. So in your mind, voting my mail is just as fraud proof as voting in person? Is that your final answer? And yes, people
Commit voter fraud all the time. When I vote in person I see my vote processed in the machine. My mail in may be thrown away if they don’t like what I chose there. Funny how 90% of mail ins are for Democrats in swing states. Nothing to see here folks...

I don't need to convince myself. I just need to look at the available evidence, or lack of more precisely. It is you who has to convince himself that lack of evidence in no way says anything about reality.

Yeah let’s believe our politicians. So let’s say my daughter needed a chrome book for school. She did. I could Order one online and it would come in the day before she needed it. Or I could pick it up that day. Hmmmm what to do....trust the mail and make sure it comes in as promised and works or go to the store and get it immediately?

I got it immediately of course since that gave me more surety. Voting in person has considerably less fraud opportunities. So that’s how we should be voting.

I don't need to believe any politician. The only people I need to believe is the judges who are charged with ruling over election disputes. Whom do you believe?

How about some common sense? Do you or do you not agree that in person voting is more secure than mail in ballots? Why do you keep avoiding answering that question?

Of course it is, but mail-in ballots were unavoidable due to Trump's efforts to suppress the Postal Service and fear of the virus. No doubt.

Again with Trump. all you had to say was "of course it is". That is the only point I am making.

 

[Bobob]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

You want elections that people truly believe are legitimate? It's easy to do. You vote one of two ways! Either in person with a valid ID...or you vote by an absentee ballot that you're requested be sent to your address.

Let's be honest here. The reason the "optics" are so bad is that the process was changed because of politics to the point where people no longer TRUST it! Let's get back to elections that we can have faith in! Stop all the bullshit about voter exclusion. Secure the elections so we aren't counting votes for weeks afterwards and disputing counts as fraudulent.

The only reason the elections are considered fraudulent is because Trump has claimed they were in both election cycles. And the protest to voting by mail is equally started by Trump. It was encourag ed by the GOP before that.

I find it interesting that you guys all pretend this narrative started in a vacuum. I fail to see a reason why sending out ballots to the address of all eligible voters is deemed a security risk but requesting them isn't.

It is simply self serving.

As to voter trust being easy to accomplish. That's bs. Voter trust can only be accomplished if both sides accept that there's a possibility they'll lose. And before you start claiming that the Dems didn't accept 2016. Clinton conceded within hours once it became clear she lost. It was Trump who contested the results... even after he won. So don't pretend people will accept the results if you simply conduct the elections a certain way.

You don't see the difference between mailing out ballots to the address of all eligible voters from the last election and sending out absentee ballots to those who request them? Really? One is mailing blindly to an address that may or may not have that person still residing there. The other is mailing a ballot to a person that has requested it.

And no I don't because for every elaborate hypothetical you can imagine for voter fraud featering universal mail in ballots I can come up with another one using mail ballots by request. I can even come up with hypotheticals featuring in person voting.

The way you judge these hypotheticals is if you can find evidence they occurred. I've not seen any, and more importantly neither has the Trump campaign since no suits like that have been filed.

LMaO. Have you convinced yourself yet? You are super long winded and illogical. So in your mind, voting my mail is just as fraud proof as voting in person? Is that your final answer? And yes, people
Commit voter fraud all the time. When I vote in person I see my vote processed in the machine. My mail in may be thrown away if they don’t like what I chose there. Funny how 90% of mail ins are for Democrats in swing states. Nothing to see here folks...

I don't need to convince myself. I just need to look at the available evidence, or lack of more precisely. It is you who has to convince himself that lack of evidence in no way says anything about reality.

Yeah let’s believe our politicians. So let’s say my daughter needed a chrome book for school. She did. I could Order one online and it would come in the day before she needed it. Or I could pick it up that day. Hmmmm what to do....trust the mail and make sure it comes in as promised and works or go to the store and get it immediately?

I got it immediately of course since that gave me more surety. Voting in person has considerably less fraud opportunities. So that’s how we should be voting.

In a perfect world, without a president hell-bent on short-stopping the Postal Service and the fear of the virus, you would be correct.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

You want elections that people truly believe are legitimate? It's easy to do. You vote one of two ways! Either in person with a valid ID...or you vote by an absentee ballot that you're requested be sent to your address.

Let's be honest here. The reason the "optics" are so bad is that the process was changed because of politics to the point where people no longer TRUST it! Let's get back to elections that we can have faith in! Stop all the bullshit about voter exclusion. Secure the elections so we aren't counting votes for weeks afterwards and disputing counts as fraudulent.

The only reason the elections are considered fraudulent is because Trump has claimed they were in both election cycles. And the protest to voting by mail is equally started by Trump. It was encourag ed by the GOP before that.

I find it interesting that you guys all pretend this narrative started in a vacuum. I fail to see a reason why sending out ballots to the address of all eligible voters is deemed a security risk but requesting them isn't.

It is simply self serving.

As to voter trust being easy to accomplish. That's bs. Voter trust can only be accomplished if both sides accept that there's a possibility they'll lose. And before you start claiming that the Dems didn't accept 2016. Clinton conceded within hours once it became clear she lost. It was Trump who contested the results... even after he won. So don't pretend people will accept the results if you simply conduct the elections a certain way.

You don't see the difference between mailing out ballots to the address of all eligible voters from the last election and sending out absentee ballots to those who request them? Really? One is mailing blindly to an address that may or may not have that person still residing there. The other is mailing a ballot to a person that has requested it.

And no I don't because for every elaborate hypothetical you can imagine for voter fraud featering universal mail in ballots I can come up with another one using mail ballots by request. I can even come up with hypotheticals featuring in person voting.

The way you judge these hypotheticals is if you can find evidence they occurred. I've not seen any, and more importantly neither has the Trump campaign since no suits like that have been filed.

LMaO. Have you convinced yourself yet? You are super long winded and illogical. So in your mind, voting my mail is just as fraud proof as voting in person? Is that your final answer? And yes, people
Commit voter fraud all the time. When I vote in person I see my vote processed in the machine. My mail in may be thrown away if they don’t like what I chose there. Funny how 90% of mail ins are for Democrats in swing states. Nothing to see here folks...

I don't need to convince myself. I just need to look at the available evidence, or lack of more precisely. It is you who has to convince himself that lack of evidence in no way says anything about reality.

Yeah let’s believe our politicians. So let’s say my daughter needed a chrome book for school. She did. I could Order one online and it would come in the day before she needed it. Or I could pick it up that day. Hmmmm what to do....trust the mail and make sure it comes in as promised and works or go to the store and get it immediately?

I got it immediately of course since that gave me more surety. Voting in person has considerably less fraud opportunities. So that’s how we should be voting.

In a perfect world, without a president hell-bent on short-stopping the Postal Service and the fear of the virus, you would be correct.

What does the PO have to do with it if we are voting in person? LOL

Don't care if the President is Moses. Voting by mail is not as secure as voting in person. Period. End of story.

 

[Bobob]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

You want elections that people truly believe are legitimate? It's easy to do. You vote one of two ways! Either in person with a valid ID...or you vote by an absentee ballot that you're requested be sent to your address.

Let's be honest here. The reason the "optics" are so bad is that the process was changed because of politics to the point where people no longer TRUST it! Let's get back to elections that we can have faith in! Stop all the bullshit about voter exclusion. Secure the elections so we aren't counting votes for weeks afterwards and disputing counts as fraudulent.

The only reason the elections are considered fraudulent is because Trump has claimed they were in both election cycles. And the protest to voting by mail is equally started by Trump. It was encourag ed by the GOP before that.

I find it interesting that you guys all pretend this narrative started in a vacuum. I fail to see a reason why sending out ballots to the address of all eligible voters is deemed a security risk but requesting them isn't.

It is simply self serving.

As to voter trust being easy to accomplish. That's bs. Voter trust can only be accomplished if both sides accept that there's a possibility they'll lose. And before you start claiming that the Dems didn't accept 2016. Clinton conceded within hours once it became clear she lost. It was Trump who contested the results... even after he won. So don't pretend people will accept the results if you simply conduct the elections a certain way.

You don't see the difference between mailing out ballots to the address of all eligible voters from the last election and sending out absentee ballots to those who request them? Really? One is mailing blindly to an address that may or may not have that person still residing there. The other is mailing a ballot to a person that has requested it.

And no I don't because for every elaborate hypothetical you can imagine for voter fraud featering universal mail in ballots I can come up with another one using mail ballots by request. I can even come up with hypotheticals featuring in person voting.

The way you judge these hypotheticals is if you can find evidence they occurred. I've not seen any, and more importantly neither has the Trump campaign since no suits like that have been filed.

LMaO. Have you convinced yourself yet? You are super long winded and illogical. So in your mind, voting my mail is just as fraud proof as voting in person? Is that your final answer? And yes, people
Commit voter fraud all the time. When I vote in person I see my vote processed in the machine. My mail in may be thrown away if they don’t like what I chose there. Funny how 90% of mail ins are for Democrats in swing states. Nothing to see here folks...

Funny how Trump tried to suppress the voters and failed with his attack on the Postal Service. Trump supporters think that the virus is a fraud. Dems worried that Trump would find a way to kill their vote so they voted in person. Dems knew that the virus is a serious matter and that being around a mass of people could spread the virus. Funny, isn't it? Nothing to see here, folks.....

 

[forkup]

View attachment 439269

I agree that those who incited were acting out for an unacceptable reason.

Oh, you left out Trump's inciteful remarks, a picture of the mob in action, and a picture of the 4 dead people. I do agree with you, but just don't give sound bites.
Keep in mind that the ballots in those swing states were recounted ad nausea and no fraud was detected.

Some fraud was but not enough to overturn the results. The optics look bad. Mail in votes, which are more difficult to audit (not absentee ballots) lean heavily Democrat. Don't care about this election anymore. Its done. But future ones need to be more transparent.

Mail-in votes and absentee ballots is distinction without a difference. And the reason why they lean more Democratic because Trump ranted against them and in general Democrats are wearier about the pandemic.

As to transparency. I'm interested to know what you mean by that. There are not one but several safeguards in place for both mail-in votes and in-person votes. Both parties have people at the ballot places to monitor the elections. In most places where they count you can literally go online and watch them do it. When there are disputes recounts can be asked for and there are thousands of lawyers on both sides. What do you want exactly to make it more transparent?

I'm also interested to know where you get the idea that they are more difficult to audit?

Lastly... optics???? Not for nothing, we just saw a mob stopping the business of governing in an attempt to perform a coup ( not hyperbole but the only right description of breaking into the Capitol to stop the verification of the election results), as a direct result of the current President of the United States claiming the future one is illegitimate and asking the mob to march on the Capitol. As far as optics go, I can't think of much worse.

You want elections that people truly believe are legitimate? It's easy to do. You vote one of two ways! Either in person with a valid ID...or you vote by an absentee ballot that you're requested be sent to your address.

Let's be honest here. The reason the "optics" are so bad is that the process was changed because of politics to the point where people no longer TRUST it! Let's get back to elections that we can have faith in! Stop all the bullshit about voter exclusion. Secure the elections so we aren't counting votes for weeks afterwards and disputing counts as fraudulent.

The only reason the elections are considered fraudulent is because Trump has claimed they were in both election cycles. And the protest to voting by mail is equally started by Trump. It was encourag ed by the GOP before that.

I find it interesting that you guys all pretend this narrative started in a vacuum. I fail to see a reason why sending out ballots to the address of all eligible voters is deemed a security risk but requesting them isn't.

It is simply self serving.

As to voter trust being easy to accomplish. That's bs. Voter trust can only be accomplished if both sides accept that there's a possibility they'll lose. And before you start claiming that the Dems didn't accept 2016. Clinton conceded within hours once it became clear she lost. It was Trump who contested the results... even after he won. So don't pretend people will accept the results if you simply conduct the elections a certain way.

You don't see the difference between mailing out ballots to the address of all eligible voters from the last election and sending out absentee ballots to those who request them? Really? One is mailing blindly to an address that may or may not have that person still residing there. The other is mailing a ballot to a person that has requested it.

And no I don't because for every elaborate hypothetical you can imagine for voter fraud featering universal mail in ballots I can come up with another one using mail ballots by request. I can even come up with hypotheticals featuring in person voting.

The way you judge these hypotheticals is if you can find evidence they occurred. I've not seen any, and more importantly neither has the Trump campaign since no suits like that have been filed.

LMaO. Have you convinced yourself yet? You are super long winded and illogical. So in your mind, voting my mail is just as fraud proof as voting in person? Is that your final answer? And yes, people
Commit voter fraud all the time. When I vote in person I see my vote processed in the machine. My mail in may be thrown away if they don’t like what I chose there. Funny how 90% of mail ins are for Democrats in swing states. Nothing to see here folks...

I don't need to convince myself. I just need to look at the available evidence, or lack of more precisely. It is you who has to convince himself that lack of evidence in no way says anything about reality.

Yeah let’s believe our politicians. So let’s say my daughter needed a chrome book for school. She did. I could Order one online and it would come in the day before she needed it. Or I could pick it up that day. Hmmmm what to do....trust the mail and make sure it comes in as promised and works or go to the store and get it immediately?

I got it immediately of course since that gave me more surety. Voting in person has considerably less fraud opportunities. So that’s how we should be voting.

I don't need to believe any politician. The only people I need to believe is the judges who are charged with ruling over election disputes. Whom do you believe?

How about some common sense? Do you or do you not agree that in person voting is more secure than mail in ballots? Why do you keep avoiding answering that question?

Brings me right back to what I said. You have an opinion and to sustain that opinion you feel warranted to ignore a complete lack of evidence.

As to your question. Probably yes. On the other hand if you feel that a few cases of hypothetical voter fraud warrants millions fewer people who vote why not just forget about voting in its entirety? That way absolutely no voter fraud is possible.

Unless and until you can make a case that this particular way of voting has a meaningful impact on not just voter fraud but elections in its entirety the argument simply falls flat.

So the answer is YES. Not probably yes. That is my only issue with it. In person voting is of course more secure and optics are just better. Mail in voting may be fine but the optics say otherwise. As I gave you the example with my oldest, when something is 100% necessary you make sure you go the safest route. In her case it was picking up the laptop in person. It likely would have arrived fine in the mail but why take such a risk. Same with voting. While it likely may be fine, why take such a risk on something that important. If there were very few mail in ballots then no one would spout conspiracy theories.

To have an election is to accept that a few people will cheat in the election. As I said the only remedy to this is no elections at all.

So why take the risk you ask? You take the risk so you have more people participating in the election. What you are saying is that you are comfortable with millions of people not voting because there's a risk some will cheat.