Everyone should be in favor of reducing taxes on the "rich"

[Bern80]

You aren't interested in Justice, you're interested in equality, but ONLY in the issue of taxation.

If you were really concerned with justice, then you'd ALSO be concerned about the injustice of enormous income disparity.

Are you?

I think not.

What is inherently unjust about economic desparity? That somehow implies unfairness. That in turn implies that one is not in control of their earning capability, which is by in large not true.

 

[Bern80]

Take your complaint to the shoulders of Bell Labs and every other robber baron class that functioned to the detriment of everyone else. Like I said, if you don't like it, take your ass to Dubai. Indeed, your complaint of "marxist crap" just doesn't ring too loudly while we live through the fruits of failed free market capitalism. Im all for personal responsibility... But I'm also for not allowing the wealthy class to use the rest of us like a vampire uses villagers in the night. Dont like it? vote. If you lose? Tough shit.

How exactley has capitalism failed?

 

[sealybobo]

This is an excellent point and exactly what happened with the mortgage crises. Lots of money in the IMF looking for a place to be invested got invested in American real estate. And that greed driven idiocy is hurting us now.

Fiscal Conservatives:

Reagan $200 billion deficit
Bush 1 $300 billion deficit
Bush 2 $482 billion deficit

Tax & Spend Liberal:

Clinton $200 billion surplus

John McCain says we will be pleased to know that he too is a fiscal conservative.

 

[DiamondDave]

Fiscal Conservatives:

Reagan $200 billion deficit
Bush 1 $300 billion deficit
Bush 2 $482 billion deficit

Tax & Spend Liberal:

Clinton $200 billion surplus

John McCain says we will be pleased to know that he too is a fiscal conservative.

The debt increased each and every year under Clinton... the surplus is a myth

 

[sealybobo]

sealybobo wrote:
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What I'm saying is that the GOP gave tax breaks to companies to get them to hire. Instead of hiring, they either let people go and sometimes moved their operations overseas. Then they got tax breaks FOR moving overseas. Yes it is true. The GOP House Ways & Means committee pre 2006 gave tax breaks to companies that were going overseas. Screw that.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

On the date 27 September 1992, 60 Minutes' Ed Bradley reported on the United States Agency for International Development (USAID), a taxpayer funded agency that promoted the movement of manufacturing in this country to foreign lands -- El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, China, and etc. This agency actively advertised to the American companies that they could get low interest loans to close down their American manufacturing interests and establish manufacturing overseas, and at labor costs of 57 cents per hour rather than the high wages in the US.

This kind of shit is one reason I voted against Hillary. While the Republican masses were screaming that Clinton was a far left liberal, I knew he was working very well with the GOP congress. They kept sending him bills they didn't think he'd sign, trying to make him look bad, and he would sign them. He truly worked from the center. But he also signed the deregulations of the media act in 97 I believe? He also signed NAFTA. So I knew Hillary wouldn't represent change. The jobs would continue to leave the country and benefit the rich and screw the middle class. Hillary would have made health care free so you could afford to live off less. Obama might actually say no to outsourcing everything. Every country protects certain industries that are vital to their economies. Only the US didn't do that for the auto industry. Screw the auto industry is what they said, because they wanted to break the Unions. And the Unions are more important than we think. Even if we aren't in a union, we benefit from their success.

Anyways, yes, this right wing path we are set on was started during the Reagan era. 9-11 allowed the right wing to push their agenda a little harder than they would have otherwise been able to push. 9-11 caused a recession. That allowed companies to move overseas because they "couldn't afford" to do business in America. Since when?

Fred Thomson said the Dems will raise taxes on businesses, and they'll pass them on to you. I find it funny that the GOP are very astute about economics. Yet they always make bad decisions. They should have known the housing crash was coming. They should have known the value of the dollar was dropping. They certainly knew that a weak dollar would mean more tourism.

They should have known deregulating the mortgage industry would cause problems. Especially McCain. He deregulated the S&L industry in the 80's and that collapsed that industry. Don't Republicans learn from their mistakes?

I'm so mad after last night. The GOP is a joke. By the way, Obama up 8 solid points in the polls. See realclearpolitics.com

 

[sealybobo]

Not all companies can outsource to other countries. And most small businesses don't. you need a global company with a global presence to do that and most businesses in the US do not have that kind of presence where investing in foreign outsourcing is possible because there still has to be oversight. And you have to make the distinction between outsourcing and outsourcing to foreign companies. I outsource payroll but it is to a local accountant not a foreign company.

Manufacturing. A lot of Manufacturing is going to Mexico or China. But, on the brite side, I hear the weak dollar and high cost of gas is making it too expensive to ship from China to America so maybe some manufacturing will come back.

We need to protect the auto industry. Tariff foreign cars if they don't manufacture here. But then the Big 3 have to promise to manufacture here in America again. No health care and pensions for life, just 401k's like the rest of us. No job banks, no protecting drunk employees, etc. Lots to work out, but this industry has to stay in America. Other countries protect certain industries. Mexico & Canada do. Why can't we?

 

[Bern80]

Fiscal Conservatives:

Reagan $200 billion deficit
Bush 1 $300 billion deficit
Bush 2 $482 billion deficit

Tax & Spend Liberal:

Clinton $200 billion surplus

John McCain says we will be pleased to know that he too is a fiscal conservative.

They never claimed to be and no one, not even a conservative, would claim that either Bush were fiscal conservatives.

 

[Shogun]

What is inherently unjust about economic desparity? That somehow implies unfairness. That in turn implies that one is not in control of their earning capability, which is by in large not true.

first off, did you JUST say that UNIONS did not produce a middle class? Come on, dude. Why must we say retarded shit when your evidence is, apparenlty, nothing more than your opinion?



Stronger unions mean a strong middle class
Safeguarding access to unions ensures a more prosperous society.
Stronger unions mean a strong middle class - Los Angeles Times


It was unions that built the middle class
It was unions that built the middle class 08/26/06


This economic culture does not operate in a fucking Vacuum where the success of each individual is solely determined by personal effort. Paris fucking Hilton did not work her ass off to get where she is. Ghetto children ARE limited in their scope of ascention in the economic heirarchy. Acting like a few singular examples of rags to riches applies to EVERYONE is not only rediculous but it's EXACTLY the kind of bullshit that capitalists have been blathering on about despite the facts on the ground.

 

[Shogun]

How exactley has capitalism failed?

Capitalism is currently FAILING our middle class. YOU may not give a fuck about the diminishing middle class from your lofty fucking perch up the food chain but plenty of those who've lost their jobs only to be told "hey, go work for 8 dollars at wal mart" feel otherwise.

Or, you can consider the total domination of Japan's auto market to our FAILING auto market. OR, you can consider the globalization excuse in the face of inflation. I posted a newsweek article all about it. enjoy.

 

[Bern80]

Capitalism is currently FAILING our middle class. YOU may not give a fuck about the diminishing middle class from your lofty fucking perch up the food chain but plenty of those who've lost their jobs only to be told "hey, go work for 8 dollars at wal mart" feel otherwise.

What evidence do you have that I am up the 'lofty fucking perch on the food chain'?

There is nothing about capitalism that says it will ensure equal or positive outcomes for everyone, thus it can't really be said to fail in that regard. Quite the opposite. Capitalism is about competition thus someone has to fail, but it also ensures top quality goods, services, employees, etc. So take your pick, we can all have so, so or those that are willing to put forth a modicum of effort can have the best.

 

[Bern80]

first off, did you JUST say that UNIONS did not produce a middle class? Come on, dude. Why must we say retarded shit when your evidence is, apparenlty, nothing more than your opinion?

No that wasn't me. Go back and read hot head.

 

[busara]

They never claimed to be and no one, not even a conservative, would claim that either Bush were fiscal conservatives.

well, bush did promise to balance the budget

 

[Bern80]

well, bush did promise to balance the budget

Uh, which one are you referring to?

 

[busara]

Uh, which one are you referring to?

dubya

 

[Bern80]

dubya

.....and then we had that darn incident. Granted he spends money like drunken sailor, but 9/11 can be considered a pretty significant factor in our budget short fall which would have lead to some significant unplanned for expenditures regardless of who the President was.

 

[editec]

What is inherently unjust about economic desparity? That somehow implies unfairness. That in turn implies that one is not in control of their earning capability, which is by in large not true.

In the context of a tax discussion?

One where people are proposing a flat tax as being just?

Everything, Bern, everything.

 

[Bern80]

In the context of a tax discussion?

One where people are proposing a flat tax as being just?

What is unjust about about people paying taxes on what they purchase?

How is a progressive tax on income more/less just?

 

[Shogun]

No that wasn't me. Go back and read hot head.

my bad. I apologize.


BARON VON BIG MEAT. im looking at you buddy.

 

[sealybobo]

They never claimed to be and no one, not even a conservative, would claim that either Bush were fiscal conservatives.

Well McCain promises to be just like Reagan. They all promise to be just like Reagan. How many times did McCain, Romney, Rudy, Fred...

They all said they worship Reagan.

So expect the same results. Record deficits.

And just like Chaney never actually said persay that Osama and Saddam were connected, it was implied.

The entire GOP implies they are conservative. And you vote for them because they are the closest thing to conservative, when in fact, that's WRONG! The Democrats have been more conservative. Conserve the environment, don't start the iraq war, blew the whistle on all the GOP pork that was spent from 2000 to 2006.

But you didn't listen, because I don't have catchy campaign slogans like the GOP. Fred Thomson was good last night, huh? I agree, but he lied. He's a liar. The entire GOP platform is a shell game. Tell you what you want to hear and rape the treasury when you are dumb enough to vote them back into office.

You should base your vote on what happened the last 8 years. Not what they say in the next 3 months. If you don't know by now, you are dumb.

 

[Shogun]

What evidence do you have that I am up the 'lofty fucking perch on the food chain'?

There is nothing about capitalism that says it will ensure equal or positive outcomes for everyone, thus it can't really be said to fail in that regard. Quite the opposite. Capitalism is about competition thus someone has to fail, but it also ensures top quality goods, services, employees, etc. So take your pick, we can all have so, so or those that are willing to put forth a modicum of effort can have the best.

And, I didn't suggest that capitalism says it will ensure equality. You asked how capitalism has failed us. I provided examples.

indeed, someone HAS to fail. Thats not a fact that capitalists like to point out when painting a rosy picture of their pet economic strategy. And, clearly, it doesn't ensure top quality anything. go to wal mart and tell me about all that top quality shit you find there.

so, yes, WE WILL take our pick and elect those who will smack a capitalist hand away from the proverbial free market bullshit cookie jar. You've had your turn. It failed. Allowing a minute portion of society have the very best while everyone else scrambles for crumbs just isn't a convincing talking point anymore.