Everyone has solutions, especially armchair quarterbacks - lets hear yours

[Dragonlady]

This is largely the latest chapter in an on-going war between Shia and Sunni muslims, and there's no way I want us to get sucked into that. Seems to me a total waste of time, blood, and money to get involved, except that we have a refugee problem here and in Europe that needs to be addressed. So - IMHO we need to send a sharp and clear message to Assad, Putin, and the Iranian gov't that it's long since past time to put an end to that war. And this is how I think it needs to go, again IMHO:

1. Tell Russia to get the fuck out. If they don't we put economic sanctions that cost them, increasing over time and I'm talking weeks not months or years. They ain't fighting Isis and everyone knows it. Any airfield from which Russian warplanes are being used to bomb the Syrian civilian population will be destroyed, and I don't care if it's inside Russian territory or anywhere else. They can keep their base in Syria but they can no longer use military force in Syria.
2. Tell Iran to get the fuck out. If they don't the Obama nuke deal gets scrapped and we bomb the hell out of their military bases. Doesn't look to me like economic sanctions mean a tinker's damn to them, so go after their military facilities and bases, and if they want a war we'll give 'em one.
3. Destroy Isis with a coalition of forces that goes in, kicks ass and goes home. US forces would stay no longer than 6 months, whether it's over or not.
4. After step 1, step 2, and step 3, tell Assad to step down or get killed. Simple as that, and if he no longer has the military backing of the Russians and the Iranians my guess is he leaves.
5. Setup a UN peacekeeping force inside Syria until elections are held and the country at least begins to stabilize. Tell the UN if they don't sign up for it the US will pull out of the UN and kick their asses out of NYC. We'll see how loud money talks, and we can setup our own humanitarian programs with the money that was going to tthe UN, which is likely to be better spent.

You can't go in, destroy the current government and then leave. All you're doing is creating a power vacuum and those who replace the old regime, are quite likely to be the worst sort of radical you can name. That's what happened in Iraq and in Libya. It's how the Ayatollahs took over Iran.

It's why you're now fighting ISIL.

Worse than what they have now? Hard to imagine.

Well that's what people said about Hussein. The US took him out and ISIS filled the void. I would say that ISIS manages to be worse than Saddam Hussein. He just took out his own people and attacked his neighbours. ISIS is a world-wide terror network.

Well that's what people said about Hussein. The US took him out and ISIS filled the void

The elected government of Nouri Al-Maliki filled the void. Al-Qaeda and their affiliate ISIL just used the instability of a fledgling republic to create further chaos. It's what any ideological militant group would do in any part of the world.

I don't know why you people expected to be able to transition Iraq from 35 years of authoritarian rule to a representative republic without there being some growing pains.

The government of Iraq which replaced Saddam Hussein was a weak puppet government and it did NOT replace the powerful Hussein as a strong force in the region.

For example, as Trump is being seen as weak and vascillating, the Russians and the Chinese are moving into areas of the world where the USA has long dominated.

The Chinese, flush with balance of payments cash, are partnering with countries in South America and Africa to provide funding for infrastructure construction. Russia is trying to rebuild it's USSR empire, but Putin is somewhat hamstrung by a lack of cash and a very weak economy.

What Putin lacks in cash, he more than makes up for in ruthlessness and aggression.

 

[yiostheoy]

This is largely the latest chapter in an on-going war between Shia and Sunni muslims, and there's no way I want us to get sucked into that. Seems to me a total waste of time, blood, and money to get involved, except that we have a refugee problem here and in Europe that needs to be addressed. So - IMHO we need to send a sharp and clear message to Assad, Putin, and the Iranian gov't that it's long since past time to put an end to that war. And this is how I think it needs to go, again IMHO:

1. Tell Russia to get the fuck out. If they don't we put economic sanctions that cost them, increasing over time and I'm talking weeks not months or years. They ain't fighting Isis and everyone knows it. Any airfield from which Russian warplanes are being used to bomb the Syrian civilian population will be destroyed, and I don't care if it's inside Russian territory or anywhere else. They can keep their base in Syria but they can no longer use military force in Syria.
2. Tell Iran to get the fuck out. If they don't the Obama nuke deal gets scrapped and we bomb the hell out of their military bases. Doesn't look to me like economic sanctions mean a tinker's damn to them, so go after their military facilities and bases, and if they want a war we'll give 'em one.
3. Destroy Isis with a coalition of forces that goes in, kicks ass and goes home. US forces would stay no longer than 6 months, whether it's over or not.
4. After step 1, step 2, and step 3, tell Assad to step down or get killed. Simple as that, and if he no longer has the military backing of the Russians and the Iranians my guess is he leaves.
5. Setup a UN peacekeeping force inside Syria until elections are held and the country at least begins to stabilize. Tell the UN if they don't sign up for it the US will pull out of the UN and kick their asses out of NYC. We'll see how loud money talks, and we can setup our own humanitarian programs with the money that was going to tthe UN, which is likely to be better spent.

You can't go in, destroy the current government and then leave. All you're doing is creating a power vacuum and those who replace the old regime, are quite likely to be the worst sort of radical you can name. That's what happened in Iraq and in Libya. It's how the Ayatollahs took over Iran.

It's why you're now fighting ISIL.

Worse than what they have now? Hard to imagine.

Well that's what people said about Hussein. The US took him out and ISIS filled the void. I would say that ISIS manages to be worse than Saddam Hussein. He just took out his own people and attacked his neighbours. ISIS is a world-wide terror network.

Well that's what people said about Hussein. The US took him out and ISIS filled the void

The elected government of Nouri Al-Maliki filled the void. Al-Qaeda and their affiliate ISIL just used the instability of a fledgling republic to create further chaos. It's what any ideological militant group would do in any part of the world.

I don't know why you people expected to be able to transition Iraq from 35 years of authoritarian rule to a representative republic without there being some growing pains.

The government of Iraq which replaced Saddam Hussein was a weak puppet government and it did NOT replace the powerful Hussein as a strong force in the region.

For example, as Trump is being seen as weak and vascillating, the Russians and the Chinese are moving into areas of the world where the USA has long dominated.

The Chinese, flush with balance of payments cash, are partnering with countries in South America and Africa to provide funding for infrastructure construction. Russia is trying to rebuild it's USSR empire, but Putin is somewhat hamstrung by a lack of cash and a very weak economy.

What Putin lacks in cash, he more than makes up for in ruthlessness and aggression.

You don't have a logical conclusion ... just a bunch of buzz ...

Try adding the conclusion next.

 

[yiostheoy]

This is largely the latest chapter in an on-going war between Shia and Sunni muslims, and there's no way I want us to get sucked into that. Seems to me a total waste of time, blood, and money to get involved, except that we have a refugee problem here and in Europe that needs to be addressed. So - IMHO we need to send a sharp and clear message to Assad, Putin, and the Iranian gov't that it's long since past time to put an end to that war. And this is how I think it needs to go, again IMHO:

1. Tell Russia to get the fuck out. If they don't we put economic sanctions that cost them, increasing over time and I'm talking weeks not months or years. They ain't fighting Isis and everyone knows it. Any airfield from which Russian warplanes are being used to bomb the Syrian civilian population will be destroyed, and I don't care if it's inside Russian territory or anywhere else. They can keep their base in Syria but they can no longer use military force in Syria.
2. Tell Iran to get the fuck out. If they don't the Obama nuke deal gets scrapped and we bomb the hell out of their military bases. Doesn't look to me like economic sanctions mean a tinker's damn to them, so go after their military facilities and bases, and if they want a war we'll give 'em one.
3. Destroy Isis with a coalition of forces that goes in, kicks ass and goes home. US forces would stay no longer than 6 months, whether it's over or not.
4. After step 1, step 2, and step 3, tell Assad to step down or get killed. Simple as that, and if he no longer has the military backing of the Russians and the Iranians my guess is he leaves.
5. Setup a UN peacekeeping force inside Syria until elections are held and the country at least begins to stabilize. Tell the UN if they don't sign up for it the US will pull out of the UN and kick their asses out of NYC. We'll see how loud money talks, and we can setup our own humanitarian programs with the money that was going to tthe UN, which is likely to be better spent.

You can't go in, destroy the current government and then leave. All you're doing is creating a power vacuum and those who replace the old regime, are quite likely to be the worst sort of radical you can name. That's what happened in Iraq and in Libya. It's how the Ayatollahs took over Iran.

It's why you're now fighting ISIL.

Worse than what they have now? Hard to imagine.

Well that's what people said about Hussein. The US took him out and ISIS filled the void. I would say that ISIS manages to be worse than Saddam Hussein. He just took out his own people and attacked his neighbours. ISIS is a world-wide terror network. I can't imagine anything worse than Assad, but then I couldn't imagine worse than Hussein either.

Saddam (nobody calls him Hussein) was a good counterbalance against Iran and he held Iraq together. Those were his two good qualities.

To do so he had to do a lot of murders. That was his bad point.

My personal view is that the benefits of Saddam outweighed the disadvantages.

You are entitled to a different opinion. But you should justify it.

Otherwise opinions are just like azzholes -- everybody has gone one and they all stink.

 

[Anathema]

So? Idiotic parents is not the model you should be using.

Actually it worked incredibly well in teaching us what to value and how to hold onto it. It also taught us it's sometimes better to see something destroyed rather than seeing it in your enemies hands.

 

[RASTAMEN]

At the moment, I can think of multiple emerging serious world events that Trump is going to have to deal with. Everyone is happy to criticize Trump and Obama for acting or not acting. But that ignores the reality - in which simple solutions are not going to solve complex problems.

Two leading contenders for the Big World Problem of the year are: Syria and NK.

Let's look at Syria:
Syria is into it's 6th year of Civil War. Now, to put this in perspective - civil wars are the worst wars, long, bloody, destructive. The Congo has been in and out of a civil war that has been deemed the bloodiest conflict ever since about 1960. No one has been able to "solve it" nor is it much in the news despite the incredible brutality and the use of child soldiers. If the Congo can't be solved...how are we going to "fix" Syria?

Modern Syria is a product of artificial borders from the division of the Ottoman Empire by the national powers of the time. It' forced together different and opposing ethnic, tribal and religious groups under a strong man regime. The regime itself was of a minority population, and kept divisions alive in order to maintain power. You have other minorities allied with the regime because the regime protected them in exchange for loyalty. An then you have others who have long been discrimminated against or even outright attacked by the regime. The entire mess is held together by a ruthless dictator. That's the readers digest version.

Part 2 - popular uprising. Short version: Assad brutally attacked peaceful demonstrators demanding political change. That was the shot that started the spiral downward. Assad's brutality against his own people became more and more apparent as the conflict grew. ISIS found a foothold in the people that had previously suffered under Assad's rule. Fast forward to now: Syria is split into regime controlled territory, "rebel" controlled territory (and "rebel" means diverse groups with differing agendas and loyalties) and ISIS controlled territory.

Part 3 - lets make it even more complicated! We have Outside Interests. Russia has involved itself - and is propping up Assad. Russia has it's own interests and agenda not the least of which is to be a world leader in the global arena. Add to that, Iran - another wanna-be world player, or at least a major regional power. Finally - we have Turkey, who's borders with Syria and problems with the Kurds create yet another agenda in the conflict.

Part 4 - all seem to be supporting different factions in the conflict turning Syria into what I think is a proxy war for outside powers.

All right folks, let's hear from you: What should the US do?


I'll outline NK later.

First and foremost we should Impeach Trump!!!! Trump is at 34 percent and falling!!!!

 

[yiostheoy]

RASTAMEN you fool you fool you have no idea how impeachment works.

First you need to piss off the Speaker. But the Speaker likes Trump.

Then you also have to piss off the Leader of the Senate. But McConnell like Trump too.

Recall that Willie pissed them off by seducing Monica the Polish girlie who never washes her dresses.

Recall also that Tricky Dick pissed them off too with his cover-up of Liddy.

That's what it would take.

Donnie may be inept but his is not bad to the bone.

He gets plenty of BJ's from Melania presumably and he has not yet broken into the Watergate.

 

[RASTAMEN]

At the moment, I can think of multiple emerging serious world events that Trump is going to have to deal with. Everyone is happy to criticize Trump and Obama for acting or not acting. But that ignores the reality - in which simple solutions are not going to solve complex problems.

Two leading contenders for the Big World Problem of the year are: Syria and NK.

Let's look at Syria:
Syria is into it's 6th year of Civil War. Now, to put this in perspective - civil wars are the worst wars, long, bloody, destructive. The Congo has been in and out of a civil war that has been deemed the bloodiest conflict ever since about 1960. No one has been able to "solve it" nor is it much in the news despite the incredible brutality and the use of child soldiers. If the Congo can't be solved...how are we going to "fix" Syria?

Modern Syria is a product of artificial borders from the division of the Ottoman Empire by the national powers of the time. It' forced together different and opposing ethnic, tribal and religious groups under a strong man regime. The regime itself was of a minority population, and kept divisions alive in order to maintain power. You have other minorities allied with the regime because the regime protected them in exchange for loyalty. An then you have others who have long been discrimminated against or even outright attacked by the regime. The entire mess is held together by a ruthless dictator. That's the readers digest version.

Part 2 - popular uprising. Short version: Assad brutally attacked peaceful demonstrators demanding political change. That was the shot that started the spiral downward. Assad's brutality against his own people became more and more apparent as the conflict grew. ISIS found a foothold in the people that had previously suffered under Assad's rule. Fast forward to now: Syria is split into regime controlled territory, "rebel" controlled territory (and "rebel" means diverse groups with differing agendas and loyalties) and ISIS controlled territory.

Part 3 - lets make it even more complicated! We have Outside Interests. Russia has involved itself - and is propping up Assad. Russia has it's own interests and agenda not the least of which is to be a world leader in the global arena. Add to that, Iran - another wanna-be world player, or at least a major regional power. Finally - we have Turkey, who's borders with Syria and problems with the Kurds create yet another agenda in the conflict.

Part 4 - all seem to be supporting different factions in the conflict turning Syria into what I think is a proxy war for outside powers.

All right folks, let's hear from you: What should the US do?


I'll outline NK later.

 

[yiostheoy]

RASTAMEN find an avatar you lazy bozo.

 

[RASTAMEN]

RASTAMEN you fool you fool you have no idea how impeachment works.

First you need to piss off the Speaker. But the Speaker likes Trump.

Then you also have to piss off the Leader of the Senate. But McConnell like Trump too.

Recall that Willie pissed them off by seducing Monica the Polish girlie who never washes her dresses.

Recall also that Tricky Dick pissed them off too with his cover-up of Liddy.

That's what it would take.

Donnie may be inept but his is not bad to the bone.

He gets plenty of BJ's from Melania presumably and he has not yet broken into the Watergate.

Trump has a credibility issue.

 

[westwall]

RASTAMEN you fool you fool you have no idea how impeachment works.

First you need to piss off the Speaker. But the Speaker likes Trump.

Then you also have to piss off the Leader of the Senate. But McConnell like Trump too.

Recall that Willie pissed them off by seducing Monica the Polish girlie who never washes her dresses.

Recall also that Tricky Dick pissed them off too with his cover-up of Liddy.

That's what it would take.

Donnie may be inept but his is not bad to the bone.

He gets plenty of BJ's from Melania presumably and he has not yet broken into the Watergate.

Trump has a credibility issue.

Coming from the clinton news network this is a laughable assertion. They have been caught lying too many times to have even the slightest bit of credibility anymore.

 

[Coyote]

At the moment, I can think of multiple emerging serious world events that Trump is going to have to deal with. Everyone is happy to criticize Trump and Obama for acting or not acting. But that ignores the reality - in which simple solutions are not going to solve complex problems.

Two leading contenders for the Big World Problem of the year are: Syria and NK.

Let's look at Syria:
Syria is into it's 6th year of Civil War. Now, to put this in perspective - civil wars are the worst wars, long, bloody, destructive. The Congo has been in and out of a civil war that has been deemed the bloodiest conflict ever since about 1960. No one has been able to "solve it" nor is it much in the news despite the incredible brutality and the use of child soldiers. If the Congo can't be solved...how are we going to "fix" Syria?

Modern Syria is a product of artificial borders from the division of the Ottoman Empire by the national powers of the time. It' forced together different and opposing ethnic, tribal and religious groups under a strong man regime. The regime itself was of a minority population, and kept divisions alive in order to maintain power. You have other minorities allied with the regime because the regime protected them in exchange for loyalty. An then you have others who have long been discrimminated against or even outright attacked by the regime. The entire mess is held together by a ruthless dictator. That's the readers digest version.

Part 2 - popular uprising. Short version: Assad brutally attacked peaceful demonstrators demanding political change. That was the shot that started the spiral downward. Assad's brutality against his own people became more and more apparent as the conflict grew. ISIS found a foothold in the people that had previously suffered under Assad's rule. Fast forward to now: Syria is split into regime controlled territory, "rebel" controlled territory (and "rebel" means diverse groups with differing agendas and loyalties) and ISIS controlled territory.

Part 3 - lets make it even more complicated! We have Outside Interests. Russia has involved itself - and is propping up Assad. Russia has it's own interests and agenda not the least of which is to be a world leader in the global arena. Add to that, Iran - another wanna-be world player, or at least a major regional power. Finally - we have Turkey, who's borders with Syria and problems with the Kurds create yet another agenda in the conflict.

Part 4 - all seem to be supporting different factions in the conflict turning Syria into what I think is a proxy war for outside powers.

All right folks, let's hear from you: What should the US do?


I'll outline NK later.

Syria is a gift that is going to keep on giving. The over riding problem is the fact that the British drew imaginary lines on maps and ignored the reality of who lived within those lines. IMO the only way you can ever really change things will be to go through and systematically redraw the national boundaries so that Sunni's live with Sunni's, and are governed by them, and Shia live with Shia, the Kurds too need to have their own homeland, but that requires carving off sections of three other countries. It is a massive problem, but ultimately I think it is the only way to make things more peaceful.

I agree, that's certainly at the historic heart of the problem, and only strong men authoritarians could hold htem together.

 

[Coyote]

What should the US do?
As a taxpayer who has seen the problems we're facing, I'm going to continue supporting Trump.

The guy is obviously much smarter and stronger than that worthless POS we just had.

How about we don't make this a digression about Trump and Obama?

 

[Coyote]

List of armed groups in the Syrian Civil War - Wikipedia

Great chart! Thank you Eagle

 

[Coyote]

At the moment, I can think of multiple emerging serious world events that Trump is going to have to deal with. Everyone is happy to criticize Trump and Obama for acting or not acting. But that ignores the reality - in which simple solutions are not going to solve complex problems.

Two leading contenders for the Big World Problem of the year are: Syria and NK.

Let's look at Syria:
Syria is into it's 6th year of Civil War. Now, to put this in perspective - civil wars are the worst wars, long, bloody, destructive. The Congo has been in and out of a civil war that has been deemed the bloodiest conflict ever since about 1960. No one has been able to "solve it" nor is it much in the news despite the incredible brutality and the use of child soldiers. If the Congo can't be solved...how are we going to "fix" Syria?

Modern Syria is a product of artificial borders from the division of the Ottoman Empire by the national powers of the time. It' forced together different and opposing ethnic, tribal and religious groups under a strong man regime. The regime itself was of a minority population, and kept divisions alive in order to maintain power. You have other minorities allied with the regime because the regime protected them in exchange for loyalty. An then you have others who have long been discrimminated against or even outright attacked by the regime. The entire mess is held together by a ruthless dictator. That's the readers digest version.

Part 2 - popular uprising. Short version: Assad brutally attacked peaceful demonstrators demanding political change. That was the shot that started the spiral downward. Assad's brutality against his own people became more and more apparent as the conflict grew. ISIS found a foothold in the people that had previously suffered under Assad's rule. Fast forward to now: Syria is split into regime controlled territory, "rebel" controlled territory (and "rebel" means diverse groups with differing agendas and loyalties) and ISIS controlled territory.

Part 3 - lets make it even more complicated! We have Outside Interests. Russia has involved itself - and is propping up Assad. Russia has it's own interests and agenda not the least of which is to be a world leader in the global arena. Add to that, Iran - another wanna-be world player, or at least a major regional power. Finally - we have Turkey, who's borders with Syria and problems with the Kurds create yet another agenda in the conflict.

Part 4 - all seem to be supporting different factions in the conflict turning Syria into what I think is a proxy war for outside powers.

All right folks, let's hear from you: What should the US do?


I'll outline NK later.

First and foremost we should Impeach Trump!!!! Trump is at 34 percent and falling!!!!

How about we don't make this a digression about Trump and Obama?

 

[my2¢]

In Syria we shouldn't take sides in their civil war. And as far as North Korea goes, I wouldn't mind seeing their missile tests used for conducting our own tests of anti-missile defense systems.

 

[postman]

How about we don't make this a digression about Trump and Obama?

If we take Obama out of the equation, Trump would have nobody to blame everything on. If we take Trump out of the equation, we no longer have the guy in charge, responsible for anything.

 

[Coyote]

NK deserves it's own thread so - I put the NK question here Everyone has solutions, - lets hear yours: North Korea

 

[Coyote]

How about we don't make this a digression about Trump and Obama?

If we take Obama out of the equation, Trump would have nobody to blame everything on. If we take Trump out of the equation, we no longer have the guy in charge, responsible for anything.

Fine, let's focus on what the president can do or should do then

 

[postman]

Fine, let's focus on what the president can do or should do then

1) Appoint an independent prosecutor to look into the whole Russian thing.

2) Pick a policy. Either Assad stays or Assad goes, Don't flip-flop between isolationist, and the Obama policy.

3) Find out the Russians part in the whole mess. Russia was in charge of making sure Syria didn't have chemical weapons, and that obviously wasn't done. As was said, the Russians were either complicit or incompetent. And I don't believe Putin is incompetent, Trump spent too much time saying what a great leader he was.

 

[usmbguest5318]

In my mind, Syria is a problem for one reason: it's such a disastrously poorly run country that terrorists, ISIS, have managed to get a decent foothold there. Assad is a prick, but he's not a problem, other than his ineptitude as a leader and governor, which is why ISIS has taken hold in his country.

From an American standpoint, getting rid of ISIS in Syria can be done in two ways:

• Get rid of Assad and replace him with a more capable leader who realizes ISIS is as bad for Syria as it is for everyone else who isn't "into" ISIS. Then clobber ISIS in Syria.
• Do what one can to reduce ISIS' strength, numbers and control in Syria.

The important thing to note about ISIS is that it's a heinous ideology, just as, for example, white supremacy is. Accordingly, it's unlikely in the foreseeable future (10 years at least) that it's possible to eradicate it. Moreover, some of ISIS' goals are simply incompatible with everyone else's.

So what's my solution proposal? Everyone, that is nations, who're non-ISIS, not "into" ISIS, must change such that the things that catalyze "people on the cusp" to lean ever closer to ISIS are not present in the "way the world works." Why do people join ISIS? According to Quantum Research, people who "fight" for ISIS fall into nine categories:

• Status seekers: Intent on improving “their social standing” these people are driven primarily by money “and a certain recognition by others around them.”
• Identity seekers: Prone to feeling isolated or alienated, these individuals “often feel like outsiders in their initial unfamiliar/unintelligible environment and seek to identify with another group.” Islam, for many of these provides “a pre-packaged transnational identity.”
• Revenge seekers: They consider themselves part of a group that is being repressed by the West or someone else.
• Redemption seekers: They joined ISIS because they believe it vindicates them, or ameliorates previous sinfulness.
• Responsibility seekers: Basically, people who have joined or support ISIS because it provides some material or financial support for their family.
• Thrill seekers: Joined ISIS for adventure.
• Ideology seekers: These want to impose their view of Islam on others.
• Justice seekers: They respond to what they perceive as injustice. “The justice seekers’ ‘raison d’être’ ceases to exist once the perceived injustice stops,” the report says.
• Death seekers: These people “have most probably suffered from a significant trauma/loss in their lives and consider death as the only way out with a reputation of martyr instead of someone who has committed suicide.”

I doubt that the ideology seekers will ever be appeased; however, it's quite possible to reduce the appeal of ISIS in the eyes of people seeking tangible outcomes related to things like money, equity, vengeance, identity, and other factors.

A first step in removing the stimuli we can is to invest in getting the "third world" nations brought up to the same standards of living that we see in the West. Quite simply, "fat and happy" people aren't radical and don't want change; they have too much to lose. Look at the majority of the people who run off to join ISIS. They haven't a damn thing to lose, having even less to lose than do the most downtrodden folks in the U.S., and they (in their minds) have everything to gain by joining ISIS. And frankly, from what I've seen, they really aren't any worse off by being in ISIS or dying for ISIS' cause. That's what has to change. The circumstance of life in the places in which those people live has to be converted into something productive so that would-be ISIS adherents are better off not destroying it and the rest of the world that makes it possible than they are by joining ISIS.