EV battery swapping

[progressive hunter]

None of those batteries costs thousands dollars a piece. It would cost million or billions of dollars in a moderate market, just how do you propose to make that affordable? You can't.

People change tanks on grills, forklifts, and various other equipment daily. The difference is you aren't paying for the tank but what is in it. In the case of batteries your upfront cost will never be recouped given the scarcity of materials needed, the cost of storage, recharging, the equipment necessary to do the actual job, and transport needed. It's a pipe dream, nothing more.

None of this even begins to address the problem that we don't have the grid capacity to do such. Battery swapping on EVs is a stupid idea.

please tell me youre not comparing cars to BBQ grills and forklifts,,


thats why I said at large scale it isnt possible,,

its only stupid to people that hate electric cars,,

 

[Rogue AI]

please tell me youre not comparing cars to BBQ grills and forklifts,,


thats why I said at large scale it isnt possible,,

its only stupid to people that hate electric cars,,

There is no scale in which it would be affordable to swap batteries. You have yet to show a single existing industry that uses this swapping model. Why do think that is? Hint: it isn't feasible.

 

[progressive hunter]

There is no scale in which it would be affordable to swap batteries. You have yet to show a single existing industry that uses this swapping model. Why do think that is? Hint: it isn't feasible.

considering its already being done your objection falls flat,,

videos in the OP prove you wrong,, try watching them,,

 

[Captain Caveman]

The video shows nothing of what you or they claim.

Swapping batteries is actually even stupider than swapping gas tanks. Gas tanks would be lighter, safer, and cheaper. You are missing the point though. There is simply no possible way to make swapping expensive batteries either affordable or profitable. Can you name a single industry that uses a similar swapping system? I'll wait.

Power tools for tradesmen.

 

[WorldWatcher]

The video shows nothing of what you or they claim.

Swapping batteries is actually even stupider than swapping gas tanks. Gas tanks would be lighter, safer, and cheaper. You are missing the point though. There is simply no possible way to make swapping expensive batteries either affordable or profitable. Can you name a single industry that uses a similar swapping system? I'll wait.

Electric forklifts are currently available. They provide either plug in charging OR efficient battery swaps.

• Plug charging is useful when the lift can be taken offline for multiple hours,
• Battery swapping allows the lift to be out of service for only a few minutes when used in internal material moves or for extended use at outside/mobile contruction sites.

WW

 

[Rogue AI]

Electric forklifts are currently available. They provide either plug in charging OR efficient battery swaps.

• Plug charging is useful when the lift can be taken offline for multiple hours,
• Battery swapping allows the lift to be out of service for only a few minutes when used in internal material moves or for extended use at outside/mobile contruction sites.

WW

View attachment 1210342

Do you have a link? It appears the customer purchases multiple batteries themselves and swaps them. That is not the same.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Do you have a link? It appears the customer purchases multiple batteries themselves and swaps them. That is not the same.

No that's the way the system is sold:

• Electric Forklift
• Plug In Charging
• Optional Batteries and charging station to allow the purchaser flexibility.

You said: "Swapping batteries is actually even stupider than swapping gas tanks. Gas tanks would be lighter, safer, and cheaper. You are missing the point though. There is simply no possible way to make swapping expensive batteries either affordable or profitable. Can you name a single industry that uses a similar swapping system? I'll wait."

Yes, this is an industry (forklifts) with swapable batteries.

The second video is EV battery swapping today being done in China. The key is vehicles that are designed for compartmentalized battery swaps instead of using custome conformal battery designs like the US/European designs. When the cars are designed from the ground up to faciclitate battery swapping it does become a viable alternative from an engineering standpoint. Now whether it would work from a financial/economic standpoint - time will tell.

WW

 

[Rogue AI]

No that's the way the system is sold:

• Electric Forklift
• Plug In Charging
• Optional Batteries and charging station to allow the purchaser flexibility.

You said: "Swapping batteries is actually even stupider than swapping gas tanks. Gas tanks would be lighter, safer, and cheaper. You are missing the point though. There is simply no possible way to make swapping expensive batteries either affordable or profitable. Can you name a single industry that uses a similar swapping system? I'll wait."

Yes, this is an industry (forklifts) with swapable batteries.

The second video is EV battery swapping today being done in China. The key is vehicles that are designed for compartmentalized battery swaps instead of using custome conformal battery designs like the US/European designs. When the cars are designed from the ground up to faciclitate battery swapping it does become a viable alternative from an engineering standpoint. Now whether it would work from a financial/economic standpoint - time will tell.

WW

Totally different concepts here. In this case you purchase multiple forklift batteries upfront. To apply the same system would require the EV owner purchase multiple EV batteries. That would not be cost effective at all.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Totally different concepts here. In this case you purchase multiple forklift batteries upfront. To apply the same system would require the EV owner purchase multiple EV batteries. That would not be cost effective at all.

You're attempting to move the goal posts. The question wasn't battery purchases, it was battery swapping.

WW

 

[Rogue AI]

You're attempting to move the goal posts. The question wasn't battery purchases, it was battery swapping.

WW

No I am not. This is about why this idea is impossible. Your example is the customer pays for multiple batteries upfront and swaps them in forklifts. That is not the same as a customer buying one battery (included with the EV) and swapping with a battery someone else paid for upfront. The inventory cost for the EV batteries are far too prohibitive for it to work, not to mention additional service costs as this is an offsite operation. You simply cannot make a battery swap affordable with such wildly expensive batteries.

 

[WorldWatcher]

No I am not. This is about why this idea is impossible. Your example is the customer pays for multiple batteries upfront and swaps them in forklifts. That is not the same as a customer buying one battery (included with the EV) and swapping with a battery someone else paid for upfront. The inventory cost for the EV batteries are far too prohibitive for it to work, not to mention additional service costs as this is an offsite operation. You simply cannot make a battery swap affordable with such wildly expensive batteries.

Under the EV Battery swap model shown in the second video of post #87. The customer isn't buying new batteries for each swap.

China already has 3,300 swap locations.

It's not about buying batteries each time, it's about designing the vehicles to allow for efficient swapping.

Not saying battery swapping will replace plug-in-charge, but they do make it viable for (a) urban settings, (b) fleet vehicles, (c) extended range driving.

WW

A new fully charged EV battery in five minutes: Are China's swap stations the future of electric cars?

China has been trialling battery swaps for electric cars for years. Are they a viable solution to range anxiety?

www.bbc.com

 

[Rogue AI]

Under the EV Battery swap model shown in the second video of post #87. The customer isn't buying new batteries for each swap.

China already has 3,300 swap locations.

It's not about buying batteries each time, it's about designing the vehicles to allow for efficient swapping.

Not saying battery swapping will replace plug-in-charge, but they do make it viable for (a) urban settings, (b) fleet vehicles, (c) extended range driving.

WW

A new fully charged EV battery in five minutes: Are China's swap stations the future of electric cars?

China has been trialling battery swaps for electric cars for years. Are they a viable solution to range anxiety?

www.bbc.com

You aren't listening. In the forklift model the customer purchases 6 batteries, and swaps them as needed. In the EV model the customer purchase one battery, somebody else purchases the swap battery, and all other aspects such as labor and equipment. In the EV model you need one battery for each customer on demand. If you have ten customers in line, you need ten batteries. Even if you recharge these ten batteries, you need additional inventory if more show up before those are charged.

I wouldn't trust anything the Chinese say on this, the logistics simply isn't there for this to be affordable.

 

[leftwinger]

Interstate gas stations (or cities) used to be about 400 mi. apart sometimes 1 station in a dead city, but the one station still alive. Fill ups are required on long trips every chance you get. You dont want to run out on HWY 50 thru NV.

You expect them to have battery packs (~1000lb as big as a pallet) all charged up for a 3AM swap? In the middle of nowhere?

Unbolt the old one, pallet jack it out. Take it to recharge. Pallet jack the charged one in. Push it into connectors. Bolt it. Test it.

Repeat every 400 mi. Need 4 changeovers between PHX and STL as example.

It could work if a smaller lighter cheaper battery type shows up. Like a fuel cell?

Could work in town? Big lineup of cars to get new packs? CA has 2-3 cars per household? 100million cars?

 

[WorldWatcher]

You aren't listening. In the forklift model the customer purchases 6 batteries, and swaps them as needed. In the EV model the customer purchase one battery, somebody else purchases the swap battery, and all other aspects such as labor and equipment. In the EV model you need one battery for each customer on demand. If you have ten customers in line, you need ten batteries. Even if you recharge these ten batteries, you need additional inventory if more show up before those are charged.

I wouldn't trust anything the Chinese say on this, the logistics simply isn't there for this to be affordable.

: SHRUG :

You asked for use of battery swappoing being used in any industry. I gave you one. Sorry you don't like it.

As to whether it will be "affordable" for Americans? Don't know, can't say as definatively as you. Are you an EV Engineer? Battery Manufacture? Automotive design engineer? Robotics expert?

People used to say that reusable spacecraft were impossible. But then we built the Shuttle (which was very expensive). They said that reusable launch vehicles were impossible, then SpaceX proved them wrong and made it economically feasible causing the cost per kilogram to orbit to drop hugley. Next we'll have a not only an economically viable launch vehicle, but recoverable Starship.

If we can do that. I'm thinking that making robotic battery swaps for automotive use isn't an insurmountable engineering challenge.

Will it be 5, 10, 20 years before automakers agree on a standard that will allow it to be economically feasible? I don't know, but I don't say it's impossible.

Remember under the swap methodology the consumer IS NOT buying a new batter, they are basically buying the charge and paying a handling fee.

WW

 

[Rogue AI]

Interstate gas stations (or cities) used to be about 400 mi. apart sometimes 1 station in a dead city, but the one station still alive. Fill ups are required on long trips every chance you get. You dont want to run out on HWY 50 thru NV.

You expect them to have battery packs (~1000lb as big as a pallet) all charged up for a 3AM swap? In the middle of nowhere?

Unbolt the old one, pallet jack it out. Take it to recharge. Pallet jack the charged one in. Push it into connectors. Bolt it. Test it.

Repeat every 400 mi. Need 4 changeovers between PHX and STL as example.

It could work if a smaller lighter cheaper battery type shows up. Like a fuel cell?

Could work in town? Big lineup of cars to get new packs? CA has 2-3 cars per household? 100million cars?

It isn't possible, the upfront costs will never be recouped. How many swaps are required to pay off one battery in inventory? Not to mention the equipment and storage. This is a pipe dream the Chinese cooked up.

 

[leftwinger]

If you have to unbolt cabling to 50x2 battery terminals and clean posts....like a 1979 Oldsmobile. Its a lot of work. If its a sealed charged box with indicator light, fully charged, and you unbolt 4 bolts slide out old, slide in new, re-bolt.....I could see it. But if it weighs a ton or otherwise unsafe but to licensed installers?

Why not just keep using gas? Until you got a sealed light safe battery pack?

 

[leftwinger]

You buy brand new EV with best possible batteries. You go for fill up. You get old Mexican knockoff battery installed dies out 200mi in the desert with 4 kids in the car not making it to the next station? Are you angry much?

 

[WorldWatcher]

It isn't possible, the upfront costs will never be recouped. How many swaps are required to pay off one battery in inventory? Not to mention the equipment and storage. This is a pipe dream the Chinese cooked up.

Yes it's possible.

It's being done now.

Just not here... yet.

The video below is a San Francisco company working with Stellantis (Jeep, Ram, Dodge, Chrysler, Fiat, Peugeot, Citroën, Alfa Romeo, Opel, and Maserati).

WW

 

[WorldWatcher]

If you have to unbolt cabling to 50x2 battery terminals and clean posts....like a 1979 Oldsmobile. Its a lot of work. If its a sealed charged box with indicator light, fully charged, and you unbolt 4 bolts slide out old, slide in new, re-bolt.....I could see it. But if it weighs a ton or otherwise unsafe but to licensed installers?

Why not just keep using gas? Until you got a sealed light safe battery pack?

We're not talking manual replacement, It would be a modular unit under the car.

The unit contains much more than just the batteries, it contains control and qualify monitoring electronics that monitors the battery health.

WW

 

[leftwinger]

Why does EV car weigh twice as much as regular car and eat up tires? If you remove engine, transmission? Shouldn't it be a wash?