EV battery swapping

[egp320i]

EV batteries are outsourced per the spec of the company that is buying them for whatever vehicle they are going into

does toyota have their own EV plant? possible but LG is one of the largest suppliers of EV batteries

they do want they are contracted to do per the engineers of that company alone

ford, bmw, audi, KIA, honda, toyota all have their own personal specs

it's not universal, not even close

just like ICE engines are not, you can't drop a ford motor into a honda for a reason

clearly you are invested in this but there are still logistics to overcome for this to ever happen if ever

 

[progressive hunter]

EV batteries are outsourced per the spec of the company that is buying them for whatever vehicle they are going into

does toyota have their own EV plant? possible but LG is one of the largest suppliers of EV batteries

they do want they are contracted to do per the engineers of that company alone

ford, bmw, audi, KIA, honda, toyota all have their own personal specs

it's not universal, not even close

just like ICE engines are not, you can't drop a ford motor into a honda for a reason

clearly you are invested in this but there are still logistics to overcome for this to ever happen if ever

you started out saying it cant be done that fast and the system wouldnt work because of connections and now youre ranting about who makes them,,

well we know it can be done because they are already doing it,,

youre also predicting the future by saying manufacturers wont work together to create an industry standard when its not them that sets the standards,,

youre all over the place so I wont waste anymore time on your "cant do attitude",,

 

[The Duke]

no personal attack, you act like you are and EE and likely you are not unless you can prove it

if it was so simply why has nobody from toyota or honda done it YET? because there are no
universal size, they are custom made for certain vehicle

you think elon is going to share tesla tech with BMW? you are dreaming

Them Prius hybrids are a nice feat of engineering.

 

[Concerned American]

and.........you paid 200 for the service and 4000 for the battery because they have all sizes for all EV vehicles?

I doubt this place could find your battery in 1 hour yet alone toss it in 60 seconds

seems staged

Electronics have shown that standards do not apply in new tech over the past 40 years. Differences between PC vs. Macs is just one glaring example.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Electronics have shown that standards do not apply in new tech over the past 40 years. Differences between PC vs. Macs is just one glaring example.

Actually you can make the argument that PC's are an excellent example industry has come together and adopted standards (IEEE) across multiple manufactures for multiple grade systems and the ability of the components to work "plug-n-play" across multiple systems. Because of that you can buy almost any personal computer today and swap out components from different manufacturers (accepting of course there are limitations based on form factor, you can't take a deskstop power supply and put it in a laptop). Such things as:

• Powersupplies from different manufacturers
• RAM from different manufactuers
• HDD/SSDs from different manufactures
• Graphics Processing Units (GPUs) from different manufactuers
• Standardization of both Ethernet and WiFi communications system
• Motherboard/CPU/GPU/RAM interface buses
• Etc.

Apply occuies about 10% of the world wide PC market (about 17% of the US Market).

"Standards" doesn't mean that each vehicle has to be exactly the same, it means they have to conform to the same standard. In context here, the proposed standard would be to shift away from custom conformal battery packs that cost 10s of thousands of dollars to replace because you have to disassemble to car to make it happen. But that standard, undercarrage battery modeles be included from the very beginning of the design process mounted under main chassis. Different vehcile classes of course would be able to fit different size modulesd (say compact, medium, large, extra large). Because tghe modular design is standardized across manufacuters the module becomes swappable.

The better example of this is Tires. Sure you buy a car and it comes with tires, but when the tread wears and you have to placement, you can use Michelen, Bridgestone, Goodyear, Continental, Yokohama, etc. You can replace your tires with tires that meet the common specification. For your vehicles size and need.

WW

 

[Rogue AI]

based on your "give up without trying" attitude my guess is you couldnt fix a hot wheels car,,

I see no problem achieving the goal we have been discussing,,

Until you look at the logistics of it in a real world scenario. It isn't feasible, the storage requirements would make urban center inaccessible. Not to mention the safety issue. If a warehouse of EV batteries caught fire you would have to evacuate large numbers of people. Such a thing might be possible in a tightly controlled environment, but not for large scale public consumption.

 

[progressive hunter]

Until you look at the logistics of it in a real world scenario. It isn't feasible, the storage requirements would make urban center inaccessible. Not to mention the safety issue. If a warehouse of EV batteries caught fire you would have to evacuate large numbers of people. Such a thing might be possible in a tightly controlled environment, but not for large scale public consumption.

feasible and possible are two different things,,

I would say at large scale its not possible,,

but in some context its both,,

it is doable which is what we were discussing,,

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

EV batteries are outsourced per the spec of the company that is buying them for whatever vehicle they are going into

does toyota have their own EV plant? possible but LG is one of the largest suppliers of EV batteries

they do want they are contracted to do per the engineers of that company alone

ford, bmw, audi, KIA, honda, toyota all have their own personal specs

it's not universal, not even close

just like ICE engines are not, you can't drop a ford motor into a honda for a reason

clearly you are invested in this but there are still logistics to overcome for this to ever happen if ever

My daughter worked for Ultium Cells, which is a combined LG/GM company. Their product information was a highly secretive as my daughter was the engineering change logistician and handled all of the proprietary information regarding their designs. They produced batteries for GM for a few models built at their Spring Hill TN plant. She left there last spring because the low demand for EVs was killing them.

 

[egp320i]

My daughter worked for Ultium Cells, which is a combined LG/GM company. Their product information was a highly secretive as my daughter was the engineering change logistician and handled all of the proprietary information regarding their designs. They produced batteries for GM for a few models built at their Spring Hill TN plant. She left there last spring because the low demand for EVs was killing them.

that alone suggests these companies don't play nice and share which is my argument that a universal EV battery across so many platforms just will never happen ever, it's not logistic, it won't make competition either

the US, Japanese and German companies are not going to sit down have a party and share notes like a certain member thinks who appears like they abandoned this thread due to a truth smack upside the head

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

that alone suggests these companies don't play nice and share which is my argument that a universal EV battery across so many platforms just will never happen ever, it's not logistic, it won't make competition either

the US, Japanese and German companies are not going to sit down have a party share notes like a certain member thinks who looks like they kinda abandoned this thread

Exactly! The industry is very secretive.

 

[Rogue AI]

feasible and possible are two different things,,

I would say at large scale its not possible,,

but in some context its both,,

it is doable which is what we were discussing,,

I don't see how it is possible unless travel with EVs is restricted/controlled. Add in things like out of town or state and the problems compound. You need a separate battery for every customer, while having storage for each 'empty'. You also need them on demand. Faster charging is the only viable option, but even that might not be possible given the massive consumption of energy required in an on demand market.

 

[progressive hunter]

I don't see how it is possible unless travel with EVs is restricted/controlled. Add in things like out of town or state and the problems compound. You need a separate battery for every customer, while having storage for each 'empty'. You also need them on demand. Faster charging is the only viable option, but even that might not be possible given the massive consumption of energy required in an on demand market.

thats why I said at large scale its not possible,,

I dont understand why people just dont put solar panels on their houses and use that to charge them,,
just have them keep a back up battery charged and when the car needs charged it can do it overnight on the back up,

of course this would work better in the southwest than the northwest and some other areas,,

 

[Rogue AI]

thats why I said at large scale its not possible,,

I dont understand why people just dont put solar panels on their houses and use that to charge them,,
just have them keep a back up battery charged and when the car needs charged it can do it overnight on the back up,

of course this would work better in the southwest than the northwest and some other areas,,

The requirement for needing a separate battery for each customer means it's not possible on any scale. There is a reason nobody ever tried this with changeable gas tanks or ever suggested it. Think it through.

 

[progressive hunter]

The requirement for needing a separate battery for each customer means it's not possible on any scale. There is a reason nobody ever tried this with changeable gas tanks or ever suggested it. Think it through.

as the video in the OP shows its being done at the commercial level,,
and if in the future a standard battery is used across the board would expand usage,,

changeable gas tanks is the stupidest thing I have ever heard,,

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

as the video in the OP shows its being done at the commercial level,,
and if in the future a standard battery is used across the board would expand usage,,

changeable gas tanks is the stupidest thing I have ever heard,,

How do you think forklifts powered by propane are refueled? They change the tank which located on the back.

 

[Rogue AI]

as the video in the OP shows its being done at the commercial level,,
and if in the future a standard battery is used across the board would expand usage,,

changeable gas tanks is the stupidest thing I have ever heard,,

The video shows nothing of what you or they claim.

Swapping batteries is actually even stupider than swapping gas tanks. Gas tanks would be lighter, safer, and cheaper. You are missing the point though. There is simply no possible way to make swapping expensive batteries either affordable or profitable. Can you name a single industry that uses a similar swapping system? I'll wait.

 

[WorldWatcher]

The requirement for needing a separate battery for each customer means it's not possible on any scale. There is a reason nobody ever tried this with changeable gas tanks or ever suggested it. Think it through.

There is not a requirement to have a seperate battery for each customer.

Currently gas stations don't stock enough gasoline in their tanks to fill ever tank in the US at the same time. They rely on consumption over time, as stock is depleated it's replaced. Same will happen with battery modules that are constructed for fast swapping. Like gas the delivery vehile will be specially deisgned to service the swap station. Unlike gas delivery, where the vehicle arrives with gas and leaves with less, the swap station vehicle will arrive with recharged/fresh batteries and leave with depleted batteries that may go to a central hub for automated QA testing and recharging.

In the long term it will come down to data and traffic patterns data derived from each charging station will be fed to transportation engineers that will then be able to build models that will influence where companies locate charging stations.

Current Traffic Engineers use physical sensors (RADAAR, cameras), portable counters, GPS data, and hell the probably get connection statistics from phone company for cell tower usage (not individual calls, but summaries of data) which is then fed into advanced modeling software. These models will then be able to guide swap station location and capacity.
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Don't get me wrong, I am NOT describing what exists today, I'm describing what is possible in the future.

And to through a wrench in the works, it may depend on Hydrogen Fuel Cell technology. Even fast changing takes 15-45 minutges for an EV to reach 75-80% of capacity providing (IIRC, 1 - 2 hundred miles of range). Compared to "fast" Fuel Cell's which can be recharged (i.e. add hydrogen) in about 5 minutes.

Hybrid FCEV (Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles) are very interesting. "Energy" in put into the car via hydrogen, that is converted to electricity in the fuel cell that charges a battery (smaller than the EV), which drives the motors. The battery in an FCEV is smaller and overall the vehicle weight is lowerer than the massive batteries used for EV only vehicles. Fuel cells as an energy source powered by hydrogen also won't draws from the consumer grid which is already struggling with demand.

The fast "refill" time of the FCEV compared to the straight EV and it's lighter weight could make it an attractive alternative. So what we may see in the coming generation is a infrastructure competion for distribution. EV has the jump, but will hydrogen have a chance? Who the hell knows, not I.

WW

 

[Rogue AI]

There is not a requirement to have a seperate battery for each customer.

Currently gas stations don't stock enough gasoline in their tanks to fill ever tank in the US at the same time. They rely on consumption over time, as stock is depleated it's replaced. Same will happen with battery modules that are constructed for fast swapping. Like gas the delivery vehile will be specially deisgned to service the swap station. Unlike gas delivery, where the vehicle arrives with gas and leaves with less, the swap station vehicle will arrive with recharged/fresh batteries and leave with depleted batteries that may go to a central hub for automated QA testing and recharging.

In the long term it will come down to data and traffic patterns data derived from each charging station will be fed to transportation engineers that will then be able to build models that will influence where companies locate charging stations.

Current Traffic Engineers use physical sensors (RADAAR, cameras), portable counters, GPS data, and hell the probably get connection statistics from phone company for cell tower usage (not individual calls, but summaries of data) which is then fed into advanced modeling software. These models will then be able to guide swap station location and capacity.
.
.
.
.
Don't get me wrong, I am NOT describing what exists today, I'm describing what is possible in the future.

And to through a wrench in the works, it may depend on Hydrogen Fuel Cell technology. Even fast changing takes 15-45 minutges for an EV to reach 75-80% of capacity providing (IIRC, 1 - 2 hundred miles of range). Compared to "fast" Fuel Cell's which can be recharged (i.e. add hydrogen) in about 5 minutes.

Hybrid FCEV (Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles) are very interesting. "Energy" in put into the car via hydrogen, that is converted to electricity in the fuel cell that charges a battery (smaller than the EV), which drives the motors. The battery in an FCEV is smaller and overall the vehicle weight is lowerer than the massive batteries used for EV only vehicles. Fuel cells as an energy source powered by hydrogen also won't draws from the consumer grid which is already struggling with demand.

The fast "refill" time of the FCEV compared to the straight EV and it's lighter weight could make it an attractive alternative. So what we may see in the coming generation is a infrastructure competion for distribution. EV has the jump, but will hydrogen have a chance? Who the hell knows, not I.

WW

First off, I did not say or imply every station would need millions of batteries, but they do need one for every customer they service. Each battery weighs more than several tanks of gas. Keeping the math simple, a semi tanker of gas carries over 10,000 gallons, which can service around 1000 cars. The same weight in batteries only services less than 80 cars. Nor does every person fill their tank every time, you can't do a partial battery swap.

Long before you get to that point, you need batteries on hand. There are not enough available resources to manufacture enough batteries. The costs are prohibitive now, further strain on manufacturing will not decrease the cost. This whole idea is a pipe dream. Best to nip that nonsense in the bud.

Hydrogen is an unlikely alternative, as it has to be produced from something else, it isn't found naturally. You might be able to vastly improve on the end product storage, but you still need mass production and transportation to the end user in a reliable manner. None of which is remotely possible in the foreseeable future.

 

[progressive hunter]

The video shows nothing of what you or they claim.

Swapping batteries is actually even stupider than swapping gas tanks. Gas tanks would be lighter, safer, and cheaper. You are missing the point though. There is simply no possible way to make swapping expensive batteries either affordable or profitable. Can you name a single industry that uses a similar swapping system? I'll wait.

we change batteries on different things everyday,, we fill the tanks on things everyday,,

only recently have we had viable rechargeable things that didnt need to change batteries,,
I know of nothing we have ever changed the tank on,,

you need to think before making a fool of yourself

 

[Rogue AI]

we change batteries on different things everyday,, we fill the tanks on things everyday,,

only recently have we had viable rechargeable things that didnt need to change batteries,,
I know of nothing we have ever changed the tank on,,

you need to think before making a fool of yourself

None of those batteries costs thousands dollars a piece. It would cost million or billions of dollars in a moderate market, just how do you propose to make that affordable? You can't.

People change tanks on grills, forklifts, and various other equipment daily. The difference is you aren't paying for the tank but what is in it. In the case of batteries your upfront cost will never be recouped given the scarcity of materials needed, the cost of storage, recharging, the equipment necessary to do the actual job, and transport needed. It's a pipe dream, nothing more.

None of this even begins to address the problem that we don't have the grid capacity to do such. Battery swapping on EVs is a stupid idea.