Europe and America: What Shared Values?

[onedomino]

yes, one more time.. it's german and frence EDUCATION that molds anti-americanism over the last 50 years of, uh, angelic American foreign policy.

gotcha.

Thank god the entire 20th century was a milestone of American altruism!


hey, dude, I realize that it bugs the shit out of you that no one bothered to post in this lame fucking thread except to dispute your conclusions but I assure you that getting all red in the face and foaming at the mouth over where you were educated in grade school is probably as significant as your opinion regarding the nature of my posts. I'll say it again, Euro opinion of America doesn't happen in a vacuum. Perhaps you comprehend that statement? Perhaps not. I really don't care. Maybe you'd like another shocker? THERE IS A STRONG VEIN OF ANTI-AMERICANISM IN THE MID EAST! woa. Did I just blow your fucking mind or what? Gosh, if only WE could write their textbooks they will probably come to love us!




now, show me another example of your mensa-sized brain and tell me how stupid I am for considering more than your grade school days in munich. Hell, I bet you got a perfect ACT score my writing "You didn't go to school in Europe like I did" in the multiple guess questions too.

You do not realize anything about me. And as I expected, you've got nothing. I wonder if you have any sense of how flatline illiterate your posts sound. And when you combine your uneducated rhetoric with your nasty, abrasive, often foul-mouthed, and condescending posting style, it produces a particularly repulsive blend of inadequacy.

By the way, we know there is a strong current of anti Americanism in the Middle East. Your posts are a perfect illustration that one does not need to go to the Gaza Strip to find Middle Eastern anti Americanism. But this is not the thread to revisit your Jew hatred and anti Israeli mouth-foaming. This thread concerned France and Germany. Pertaining to which, you had zero to contribute, other than your opinion that the US deserves the anti Americanism that occurs in these countries and that anti Americanism does not occur in a vacuum. Profound. Your pointless remarks about the relevancy of my educational experience in Europe reminds me to add that I also attended graduate school at Fudan University in Shanghai. So I do have some perspective on the differences in anti Americanism between Europe and Asia. The fact is that the anti Americanism I encountered in Europe was much greater than that in China and most other places in Asia. This was especially true among young people. In modern China, the American economic system is principally seen as successful, and not as "savage" as taught in Europe. Now this would not have been so in the China of the 1970s, much less the 1950s. But the education system changed and the US was portrayed more as a successful competitor, and less as a savage economic enemy, as it is in Europe. The point that your nano-posts failed to grasp is that anti Americanism in France and Germany is in some significant part the consequence of school instruction, especially economics education. And the attitudes conveyed with such indoctrination are producing a new generation of anti Americanism, apart of the superficial and quite transitory events of the past seven years.

 

[Shogun]

Gosh.. the MASTERMIND thinks that Anti-American sentiment in the mid-east is a by-product of anti-semitism! At least it's no mystery why you seem to think that Euro should form an opinion of America based on ANYTHING BUT the actions of the US. Hell, you make the same mistake when demonizing pals by polishing that zionist halo. Clearly, you have a firm grasp on deciphering international policy objecively!



I guess at least you are consistent even if, by the very evidence of this tumbleweed thread, no one gives a damn about your opinion on the issue. I'm sure tossing an ad hominem my way will magically make this untrue. What is actually the funniest thing of all though is how you are trying real hard to bluster this thread into something interesting. I said that I agree with Tigerbob, and still do, and here you are bleeding all over the thread praying for someone to give a damn. Trust me, your education is about as impressive as your failure in this exercise of critical thought. Again, calling me a dickhead or a bastard or whatever your label machine is currently set to (surprisingly, it prints something other than antisemite labels) will make you a winner* in this thread.

Avada Kedavra!
*POOF*









* of the Special Olympics

 

[onedomino]

Gosh.. the MASTERMIND thinks that Anti-American sentiment in the mid-east is a by-product of anti-semitism! At least it's no mystery why you seem to think that Euro should form an opinion of America based on ANYTHING BUT the actions of the US. Hell, you make the same mistake when demonizing pals by polishing that zionist halo. Clearly, you have a firm grasp on deciphering international policy objecively!



I guess at least you are consistent even if, by the very evidence of this tumbleweed thread, no one gives a damn about your opinion on the issue. I'm sure tossing an ad hominem my way will magically make this untrue. What is actually the funniest thing of all though is how you are trying real hard to bluster this thread into something interesting. I said that I agree with Tigerbob, and still do, and here you are bleeding all over the thread praying for someone to give a damn. Trust me, your education is about as impressive as your failure in this exercise of critical thought. Again, calling me a dickhead or a bastard or whatever your label machine is currently set to (surprisingly, it prints something other than antisemite labels) will make you a winner* in this thread.

Avada Kedavra!
*POOF*









* of the Special Olympics

Ad hominem? You are confusing an argument form with my description of you and your posts. But then confusion seems to be your frequent companion. It was long past time that someone let you know exactly how you appear. Let me assure you that it is not just my opinion. Now go back into your corner and commiserate with some like-minded internet thing, such as Psychoblues. He can teach you the art of the drive-by thread kill. Thanks for you contribution to the discussion, it was entirely typical of you.

 

[Shogun]

You are confusing an argument form with my description of you and your posts.

Good lordy! One of seems to be stumbling on the vocab! Say, I like your new rules of debate. According to your brand new format, I can prove my argument by describing how your posts resemble your moms sexual activity up and down the north atlantic seacoast.


coooool.




Long past time? Oh my GOD, you sure did serve me a new one. I-I-I'm literally quaking with RAGE *GRRRR* that you have expressed an opinion! Oh NOOOOOOEZ!


I tellya, nothing is as impressive as suggesting that you have an E-gang roundly agreeing with your opinion of me. Golly gee, andy, why on earth didn't those same people hop on in here on this thread instead of letting you be the sole voice in such HARSH E-Retribution?




Like I said, if it makes you feel important to think so then... getem, bobby.


I think you are flustered by the clear insignificance of your thread AND perspective on the issue. Clearly, you figure it's quicker to talk shit to inflate this thread than taking opposition like a man with a backbone OR a brain. In fact, your pattern of facing opposition in this thread probably makes it a punchline that you would be pointing fingers at anyones input on this forum.


Getem, bobby.

 

[Annie]

Thought I'd jump into this fire.

Seems to me that perhaps the first article left a bit out, but still made a point. I don't think Europe has changed that much where they are 'coming from' via the US. As a whole it seems they always have thought that the US stole the best thinking of their philosophers, economists, essayists, etc. This is the first year I've had European students in my class, twin 8th graders. They are Dutch. Much more serious students and they speak 4 languages.

The boy is in my drama club. Saturday we were talking and he said that I'm the only teacher he's had in America that was challenging like at home. I asked him where he saw the differences, (most of their schooling has been in Europe, but 3 years ago they were close to here, they also spent a year at the International School in Asia.) He said there is much more memorization and essays, (though not true in my class, ), he also said that he likes that I make a point to acknowledge that much of our thinking came from Europe, though the Founders did so much more with it. He thought the idea that Americans were sort of hyper to get things done, explained it well. At 14 he already recognizes the Europeans think a lot, but move little. The Americans are even today, restless and easily frustrated, but ready to move on. You could NOT get many American 14 year olds to hold that sort of conversation, heck even 18 year olds.

Similar indoctrination is going on in American schools, via the same agenda of text books, written by 'education' Phd's in far greater numbers than subject matter Phd's. Thus we get fuzzy math books, revisionist history, skewed literature choices in books.

I sometimes wonder if the authors are so full of hubris that they fail to understand that even 6th graders can read and identify nonsense. Today we were finishing up the Revolutionary War in 7th grade. One of the sections, had no key terms, people, or places. That's not happened before for these students, though it will as we go along, for the same reasons. The kids were like, what?

It was on the importance of women, blacks, and Native Americans fighting in the war. Seriously, 9 pages. They mentioned Betsy Ross of course, Molly Pitcher, and Martha Washington. They actually denigrated those that remained at home, trying to keep the farm and family together.

As for African Americans, they portrayed them as 'heroic' whether they went with the colonial army or the British army. One student asked, "That doesn't make sense, the book isn't being logical." Now I had to make the students understand the dilemma faced by free blacks and those wishing for their freedom. 'Who to believe?' Those with the Declaration or those they thought would win and be grateful? At the same time, the kids had already recognized that most women could not go to the front, leaving the children behind, only those in an Ivory Tower could.

As for the Native Americans, they say they were convinced by the British to fight with them, as if the Americans won they would move West. So far, so good. Then they go onto relate how the Americans were nearly decimated by the Native Americans towards the end of the war, nearly saving the day for the inept Brits. Luckily for the Americans, I believe it was the Miami Tribe, that came and helped them, at the behest of the Spanish, by that time allies of the colonies. Now I dare you to go do a search of any education sites from university history departments and find this type of stuff. There's a reason that we are still without approved national standards in the social studies. BTW, this was the BEST text I could find and I had to take a high school reading level.

Getting back to Europe, I believe they mostly see the US as inferior, but somehow lucky to be rich. Sort of a 'dumb luck' for ending up here. We took the best thinking developed there and other places and somehow figured out how to make it reality rather than just philosophy. I don't think it's jealousy, I think most Europeans are very glad they are not American. I think it's really a case of their being appalled at the riches falling on the heads of inferiors. Like my new students, they find it 'weird' that I'm crediting all these Europeans, as they flat out admit that the US is rarely brought up in their schools.

Somehow I saw connections, but it's pretty much all over the place with me. Sorry.

 

[Dr Grump]

From the outside looking in Raygun and Bush have done more to make America a pariah than any other presidents. It's kinda funny in that a lot of people in America look to Raygun as a great president. He was average at best. Over the past 65 years Roosevelt, Kennedy, Clinton and Eisenhower were worth a damn. Bush II, Carter and Raygun have probably been the worst - as far as the rest of the world is concerned. I know Raygun has gained the persona as some sort of cult hero amongst the right since his presidency. Funny how history rewrites itself...

 

[Annie]

From the outside looking in Raygun and Bush have done more to make America a pariah than any other presidents. It's kinda funny in that a lot of people in America look to Raygun as a great president. He was average at best. Over the past 65 years Roosevelt, Kennedy, Clinton and Eisenhower were worth a damn. Bush II, Carter and Raygun have probably been the worst - as far as the rest of the world is concerned. I know Raygun has gained the persona as some sort of cult hero amongst the right since his presidency. Funny how history rerights itself...

If you don't think the Europeans laughed at Wilson and FDR, you haven't read your history.

 

[Dr Grump]

If you don't think the Europeans laughed at Wilson and FDR, you haven't read your history.

They didn't laugh at either. They were pissed off at the length of time it took them to enter the wars. I know my history. Maybe yours is different...In fact I saw a BBC programme just last night about the British take on Roosevelt and there was nothing funny about it. It looked at the diaries of those around him (his Secretary of State, Secretary of War, Secretary of the Navy etc), and they were not too sure what he wanted. On many occasions Churchill thought he had convinced Roosevelt to join the war, only for him not to. Interestingly some pundits thought he armed the soviets and helped out the Brits because he thought they could fight the war for him. IOW, no American lives would be lost, even after three separate incidents in 1940 and 1941 where American ships were accidentally torpedoed by the Nazis. Course the Japanese changed all that...

 

[Toro]

Though I agree with the criticisms in the OP, seeing as I posted the same article a day after onedomino - the similarities between America and Europe are far greater than the differences.

We are focusing on what Freud called "The Narcissism of Small Differences."

 

[Annie]

They didn't laugh at either. They were pissed off at the length of time it took them to enter the wars. I know my history. Maybe yours is different...

No, it's not different, though the reaction may well be.

 

[onedomino]

No, it's not different, though the reaction may well be.

K. What do you think about the description of how economics is taught in France and Germany, particularly the characterization of America as a "savage" economy? I was amazed that China had a more coherent view of the US economic system than France or Germany. But beyond the economic viewpoint, I think descriptions such as "savage," etc taught when people are young, last long into adulthood and promote anti Americanism. Unlike Toro, I am not so sure these differences are all that small.

 

[Annie]

K. What do you think about the description of how economics is taught in France and Germany, particularly the characterization of America as a "savage" economy? I was amazed that China had a more coherent view of the US economic system than France or Germany. But beyond the economic viewpoint, I think descriptions such as "savage," etc taught when people are young, last long into adulthood and promote anti Americanism. Unlike Toro, I am not so sure these differences are all that small.

Economics isn't my strong suit. With that said, I'm sure we do look savage to them. It's a free for all here, nearly anyone working is involved with the markets, via 401k, etc. We all spout off about whether or not there should be protections, tax increases/decreases, whether the fed should drop/raise interest rates. No compunctions at spouting off about UN, Europe, France, EU, neo-nazis, etc. Heck over the years I've seen Europeans here say we are in Iraq 'because of the oil.' I usually respond, "If we are, it's for your lazy asses, not ours." Not so nice.

We do perceive them to be backwards, c'mon admit it. They are still chained to a class system that hasn't existed for most of the past 100 years. We still admire what has gone before, but those minds seem in short supply and when they exist, they usually make their way here.

 

[Toro]

K. What do you think about the description of how economics is taught in France and Germany, particularly the characterization of America as a "savage" economy? I was amazed that China had a more coherent view of the US economic system than France or Germany. But beyond the economic viewpoint, I think descriptions such as "savage," etc taught when people are young, last long into adulthood and promote anti Americanism. Unlike Toro, I am not so sure these differences are all that small.

There are differences of course, but Europe is still a mixed/market economy where the rule of law is tantamount, whose historical development and ideals are rooted in a common philosophy, running from Plato to Voltaire. Basic rights such as freedom of expression, freedom of association, freedom of speech, etc., are characteristics of both. Tolerance, a commitment to technological improvement, and an intrinsic adherence to democracy are other traits Europeans and Americans share. So a tax rate of 30% versus 45% are small potatoes compared to the big picture.

America has its history in Europe, so it is not surprising there are far more similarities than differences.

 

[onedomino]

There are differences of course, but Europe is still a mixed/market economy where the rule of law is tantamount, whose historical development and ideals are rooted in a common philosophy, running from Plato to Voltaire. Basic rights such as freedom of expression, freedom of association, freedom of speech, etc., are characteristics of both. Tolerance, a commitment to technological improvement, and an intrinsic adherence to democracy are other traits Europeans and Americans share. So a tax rate of 30% versus 45% are small potatoes compared to the big picture.

America has its history in Europe, so it is not surprising there are far more similarities than differences.

I do not disagree about those things you mentioned. What I was especially referring to was the kind of student produced who reads in his economics text book: 'any future prosperity “depends on the regulation of capitalism on a planetary scale.” Capitalism itself is described at various points in the text as “brutal,” “savage,” “neoliberal,” and “American.” ' I think such material fosters anti Americanism, and needless to say, weak performance when it comes to economy development. I think that such attitudes absorbed when one is young can have an enduring effect. The post that I quoted, by the way, was written by a Frenchman.

 

[Toro]

I do not disagree about those things you mentioned. What I was especially referring to was the kind of student produced who reads in his economics text book: 'any future prosperity “depends on the regulation of capitalism on a planetary scale.” Capitalism itself is described at various points in the text as “brutal,” “savage,” “neoliberal,” and “American.” ' I think such material fosters anti Americanism, and needless to say, weak performance when it comes to economy development. I think that such attitudes absorbed when one is young can have an enduring effect. The post that I quoted, by the way, was written by a Frenchman.

Yeah, well, what was written in those texts is idiotic.

 

[watermark]

The other day on this message board, I disagreed with the common refrain that Bush is the main reason for anti Americanism abroad. I said that there is a lot more to it than that. Anti Americanism in Europe predates the Bush Presidency by many years, if not decades. Far beneath the superficial relationship that Europe has with Bush, the reasons for anti Americanism pertain to fundamental social and economic differences between Europeans and Americans. These differences are expressed by European educational systems. While attending school, I have lived in Asia and Europe; in particular Shanghai and Munchen. The anti Americanism I observed was far more intense in Europe than in Asia. These attitudes, contrary to popular belief, have not much to do with Bush. Sure he is a “cowboy,” and compared to the elitists in European universities (and American universities for that matter), “inarticulate and not very bright.” But that is just icing on an anti American cake that has been baking for decades. For those who think electing the American Left in November 2008 will offer a respite from generally increasing anti Americanism abroad, think again:

Man, I totally need to go to Europe so that I can blame America first even more!

 

[tigerbob]

So what is your point? That those characteristics were not included in the analysis? Maybe next time. If you bothered to read the articles then you would have observed that the differences between America and Europe in economic and social education leads to differences in the way our societal and economic systems are constructed. And that the way some subjects are taught in Europe leads to anti Americanism. Was that too difficult for you to understand? The further point was that these differences, especially anti Americanism, are often said to be a function of how much Bush is hated. And that is false.

Sorry to have missed the last week of this conversation, which has been interesting. I've been on a business trip and haven't been able to log in. I'll cover your response first.

I did bother to read the articles. I agree that our societies are different, but I didn't agree with the conclusions being drawn. Just because I have a different take than you, don't write it all off as a character flaw on my part, or that I didn't read the articles.

No it wasn't too difficult for me to understand. And where the hell did that comment come from? Just because someone disagrees with you they must be a simpleton, right? Nice.

Anyway.....

I said I'd been on a business trip. Since my series of meetings were in Hamburg, I mentally took your observations along with me and, on Thursday, brought them up with a group of German management trainees who just joined our company fresh out of unviversity. Here are a selection of the responses I had from them.

"The world's opinion of America has been redefined by Bush. Redefined for the worse"

"My opinion is shaped by what I see. If I see an idiot elected twice to the White House, I suspect America may be full of idiots."

"That's ridiculous. We looked at economic theory from many different viewpoints. The one you mentioned is one of them, but it's not somehow stronger that the others" (I think by "stronger" she meant dominant or preeminent).

"I like the dream of America. But I think Bush has lost his way."

"America is a dog eat dog country. If you fall out of the system, there is no real safety net. It's not a very caring country."

"To say that we are being brainwashed by the educational policies our governments develop is stupid. It is too simplistic to explain our differences that way".

Most of them had an opinion. These just happened to be the ones I took scrbbled notes on.

Unfortunately, I have no immediate plans for travel to France.