ESPN Panelist Calls National Anthem A "War Anthem"

[Pogo]

It's the national anthem of the Soviet Union...


I'm not sure why I know that...

I wonder why it didn't translate to English. Some of the words are recognizable, and some of them translate from Czech, but most of them seem like gibberish.

like a lot of languages translation of exact words are not possible, they require as tudy homogenization based on tone, implication phraseology....ask Hillary- "reset" vis a vis "overcharge'... ...

Russian and Czech are not tonal languages though. What they are however is written in Cyrillic, so they'd have to be transliterated to Roman. I suspect that variance was what stumped Google Translate. Perhaps what was posted was phonetic but not standardized.

 

[mudwhistle]

I wonder why it didn't translate to English. Some of the words are recognizable, and some of them translate from Czech, but most of them seem like gibberish.

like a lot of languages translation of exact words are not possible, they require as tudy homogenization based on tone, implication phraseology....ask Hillary- "reset" vis a vis "overcharge'... ...

Russian and Czech are not tonal languages though. What they are however is written in Cyrillic, so they'd have to be transliterated to Roman. I suspect that variance was what stumped Google Translate. Perhaps what was posted was phonetic but not standardized.

Cyrillic????

WTF???

 

[Pogo]

Oh, say, can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hail'd at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, thro' the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watch'd, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof thro' the night that our flag was still there.
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?​

I think you're wrong.

Our's talks about our flag still being there in the morning after a fireworks display courtesy of the British.


Then there's the Reds:

National Anthem of the Soviet Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An unbreakable union of free republics,
The Great Rus' has welded forever to stand.
Long live the creation of the will of the people,
The united, mighty Soviet Union!
CHORUS:Be glorious, our free motherland,A reliable stronghold of the peoples' friendship!Banner of the Soviets, Banner of the people,May it lead from victory to victory!
Through tempests the sun of freedom shone to us,
And the great Lenin illuminated our path,
We were raised by Stalin to be true to the people,
To labour and exploits he inspired us!
CHORUS:Be glorious, our free motherland,A reliable stronghold of the peoples' happiness!Banner of the Soviets, Banner of the people,May it lead from victory to victory!
We grew our army in battles,
We will sweep the vile invaders out of the way!
We shall in battle decide the fate of generations,
We shall lead to glory our Motherland!
CHORUS:Be glorious, our free motherland,A reliable stronghold of the peoples' glory!Banner of the Soviets, Banner of the people,May it lead from victory to victory!​

Sounds like aggression and oppression to me.

That's exactly what I mean -- theirs doesn't even get into battle until the third verse. We're in it on the first line (you don't have a reason to cite the flag waving without a battle).

As far as "oppression", there's no difference between an American fighting off an invader and a Russian fighting off an invader, so that's a wash. The only difference is ours has a specific reference.

In effect theirs is about the country, ours is about a specific battle and more specifically about a flag.
It's curious, this flag fetishism. No one else really has it.

Regardless, the song is about British oppression and how we stood up to it.

I imagine for most people they might appreciate that and give thanks that our forefathers stood up to them. We essentially had had enough of their abuse.

God Dammit, what's wrong with that????

Nobody said anything's "wrong" with that -- I just note that you describe the Russian passage as "aggression and oppression", even though there isn't even a specific battle mentioned. But as far as battle, both songs simply play defense of the homeland.

What's wrong with that?

 

[mudwhistle]

That's exactly what I mean -- theirs doesn't even get into battle until the third verse. We're in it on the first line (you don't have a reason to cite the flag waving without a battle).

As far as "oppression", there's no difference between an American fighting off an invader and a Russian fighting off an invader, so that's a wash. The only difference is ours has a specific reference.

In effect theirs is about the country, ours is about a specific battle and more specifically about a flag.
It's curious, this flag fetishism. No one else really has it.

Regardless, the song is about British oppression and how we stood up to it.

I imagine for most people they might appreciate that and give thanks that our forefathers stood up to them. We essentially had had enough of their abuse.

God Dammit, what's wrong with that????

Nobody said anything's "wrong" with that -- I just note that you describe the Russian passage as "aggression and oppression", even though there isn't even a specific battle mentioned. But as far as battle, both songs simply play defense of the homeland.

What's wrong with that?

I didn't say there was something wrong with it. Unless you take into account how the Reds treated those who defended the homeland. They used human waves only arming every other soldier with a weapon and the other with the bullets, taking up the weapon or bullets from the soldier that had fallen, and shooting any they felt were cowards when they tried to escape being slaughtered by Nazi machine gunners. The Reds killed more Russians than Germans did.

Other than that, what could be wrong????

 

[Pogo]

like a lot of languages translation of exact words are not possible, they require as tudy homogenization based on tone, implication phraseology....ask Hillary- "reset" vis a vis "overcharge'... ...

Russian and Czech are not tonal languages though. What they are however is written in Cyrillic, so they'd have to be transliterated to Roman. I suspect that variance was what stumped Google Translate. Perhaps what was posted was phonetic but not standardized.

Cyrillic????

WTF???

Cyrillic is the alphabet used for Russian, Czech and several other Slavic languages. You've seen it: Here's what the anthem looks like in Russia - note this is apparently not the same anthem, since it's changed several times:

Россия — священная наша держава,
Россия — любимая наша страна.
Могучая воля, великая слава —
Твоё достоянье на все времена!

Припев:
Славься, Отечество наше свободное,
Братских народов союз вековой,
Предками данная мудрость народная!
Славься, страна! Мы гордимся тобой!

От южных морей до полярного края
Раскинулись наши леса и поля.
Одна ты на свете! Одна ты такая —
Хранимая Богом родная земля!

Припев

Широкий простор для мечты и для жизни
Грядущие нам открывают года.
Нам силу даёт наша верность Отчизне.
Так было, так есть и так будет всегда!

Припев

When you transliterate (express the same language in a different alphabet) into the Roman alphabet we use, it comes out:

Rossiya — svyashchennaya nasha derzhava,
Rossiya — lyubimaya nasha strana.
Moguchaya volya, velikaya slava —
Tvoyo dostoyanye na vse vremena!

Pripev:
Slavsya, Otechestvo nashe svobodnoye,
Bratskikh narodov soyuz vekovoy,
Predkami dannaya mudrost narodnaya!
Slavsya, strana! My gordimsya toboy!

Ot yuzhnykh morey do polyarnogo kraya
Raskinulis nashi lesa i polya.
Odna ty na svete! Odna ty takaya —
Khranimaya Bogom rodnaya zemlya!

Pripev

Shirokiy prostor dlya mechty i dlya zhizni.
Gryadushchiye nam otkryvayut goda.
Nam silu dayot nasha vernost Otchizne.
Tak bylo, tak yest i tak budet vsegda!

Pripev

Obviously, how you spell that transliteration would have to be standardized, or a translator bot like Google wouldn't be able to handle it.

And into English:

Russia - our sacred stronghold,
Russia - our beloved country.
A mighty will, a great glory
Are your inheritance for all time!

Chorus:
Be glorious, our free Motherland,
Ancient union of brotherly peoples,
Ancestor given wisdom of the people!
Be glorious, country! We take pride in you!

From the southern seas to the polar region
Spread our forests and our fields.
You are one in the world! You are one of a kind,
Native land protected by God!

More @ Wiki

 

[Pogo]

Regardless, the song is about British oppression and how we stood up to it.

I imagine for most people they might appreciate that and give thanks that our forefathers stood up to them. We essentially had had enough of their abuse.

God Dammit, what's wrong with that????

Nobody said anything's "wrong" with that -- I just note that you describe the Russian passage as "aggression and oppression", even though there isn't even a specific battle mentioned. But as far as battle, both songs simply play defense of the homeland.

What's wrong with that?

I didn't say there was something wrong with it. Unless you take into account how the Reds treated those who defended the homeland. They used human waves only arming every other soldier with a weapon and the other with the bullets, taking up the weapon or bullets from the soldier that had fallen, and shooting any they felt were cowards when they tried to escape being slaughtered by Nazi machine gunners. The Reds killed more Russians than Germans did.

Other than that, what could be wrong????

None of that is in the song though. You injected it there. Matter of fact when you posted that it says "The USSR's is basically, "Let's kill those rotten bastards and gut them all like fish, murder their family, and shoot their worthless dog......." that was complete fabrication.

 

[Trajan]

on the topic....I see the anthem as a semi paean....(?) not so much lets go kick some ass & make war....

 

[Pogo]

Upon further review: the anthem posted back on page 1 appears to be an old one, scrapped in the de-Stalinization process (and short-lived while it was around). Hence the discrepancy from the one posted above.

 

[mudwhistle]

Nobody said anything's "wrong" with that -- I just note that you describe the Russian passage as "aggression and oppression", even though there isn't even a specific battle mentioned. But as far as battle, both songs simply play defense of the homeland.

What's wrong with that?

I didn't say there was something wrong with it. Unless you take into account how the Reds treated those who defended the homeland. They used human waves only arming every other soldier with a weapon and the other with the bullets, taking up the weapon or bullets from the soldier that had fallen, and shooting any they felt were cowards when they tried to escape being slaughtered by Nazi machine gunners. The Reds killed more Russians than Germans did.

Other than that, what could be wrong????

None of that is in the song though. You injected it there. Matter of fact when you posted that it says "The USSR's is basically, "Let's kill those rotten bastards and gut them all like fish, murder their family, and shoot their worthless dog......." that was complete fabrication.

Not shit Sherlock.

So is the premise that our National Anthem is a evil thing. But that is the belief of the person mentioned in the OP.

 

[Pogo]

on the topic....I see the anthem as a semi paean....(?) not so much lets go kick some ass & make war....

I agree, there's no call to action ("let's go"); it's a memorial and a captured patriotic emotion.

The other aspect though is that it entirely concentrates on a battle and a flag, as opposed to the land and the people and the legacy, which is what other countries' anthems do.

And that's curious. It says something about us.

 

[mudwhistle]

The problem with some of the dickwad journalists is they tend to look at the sliver in our eyes but ignore that plank in everyone else's.

 

[Pogo]

I didn't say there was something wrong with it. Unless you take into account how the Reds treated those who defended the homeland. They used human waves only arming every other soldier with a weapon and the other with the bullets, taking up the weapon or bullets from the soldier that had fallen, and shooting any they felt were cowards when they tried to escape being slaughtered by Nazi machine gunners. The Reds killed more Russians than Germans did.

Other than that, what could be wrong????

None of that is in the song though. You injected it there. Matter of fact when you posted that it says "The USSR's is basically, "Let's kill those rotten bastards and gut them all like fish, murder their family, and shoot their worthless dog......." that was complete fabrication.

Not shit Sherlock.

So is the premise that our National Anthem is a evil thing. But that is the belief of the person mentioned in the OP.

Not shit indeed. So why make it up?

Back to the OP -- where does the guy say it's "evil"? Or make any value judgement? He says it's a "war anthem", which it is. So what? Again, why make up something that isn't there?

Further, the "buy"/"sell" routine is a sports point/counterpoint where you're supposed to take a stand. So this guy did, and another guy took the opposite stand. That's dialogue. Again, so what?

Now he does raise the question of why we play a national anthem at an (intranational) sports event. I do too.

 

[mudwhistle]

None of that is in the song though. You injected it there. Matter of fact when you posted that it says "The USSR's is basically, "Let's kill those rotten bastards and gut them all like fish, murder their family, and shoot their worthless dog......." that was complete fabrication.

Not shit Sherlock.

So is the premise that our National Anthem is a evil thing. But that is the belief of the person mentioned in the OP.

Not shit indeed. So why make it up?

Back to the OP -- where does the guy say it's "evil"? Or make any value judgement? He says it's a "war anthem", which it is. So what?

Further, the "buy"/"sell" routine is a sports point/counterpoint where you're supposed to take a stand. So this guy did, and another guy took the opposite stand. That's dialogue. Again, so what?

Playing dumb seems to be your m.o.

You also have a distinct problem with understanding satire.


First of all, there was some sort of implication assumed when an obvious pacifist starts describing something in derogatory terms that it is inherently evil in nature. How do I know he's a pacifist? Well, he didn't produce a membership card that says "I'm a damned pacifist", but I was able to surmise that he was by his rhetoric.

Second, knowing Russia's history tells the story that the song itself doesn't, so please, stop wasting my time.

Third, I just think you're trying to piss me off by acting clueless.

Epic fail.


End of discussion

 

[Pogo]

Not shit Sherlock.

So is the premise that our National Anthem is a evil thing. But that is the belief of the person mentioned in the OP.

Not shit indeed. So why make it up?

Back to the OP -- where does the guy say it's "evil"? Or make any value judgement? He says it's a "war anthem", which it is. So what?

Further, the "buy"/"sell" routine is a sports point/counterpoint where you're supposed to take a stand. So this guy did, and another guy took the opposite stand. That's dialogue. Again, so what?

Playing dumb seems to be your m.o.

You also have a distinct problem with understanding satire.


First of all, there was some sort of implication assumed when an obvious pacifist starts describing something in derogatory terms that it is inherently evil in nature. How do I know he's a pacifist? Well, he didn't produce a membership card that says "I'm a damned pacifist", but I was able to surmise that he was by his rhetoric.

Second, knowing Russia's history tells the story that the song itself doesn't, so please, stop wasting my time.

Third, I just think you're trying to piss me off by acting clueless.

Epic fail.


End of discussion

Epic failure is right; you post a story and then want to talk about what you inject into it? Wtf for? You inject meaning into the commentary, you inject sentiments that aren't in the Russian national anthem, you pretend an anthem about a country is about shooting dogs... and then you run away when called on it? Then you want to dance between a song and a history too? Epic dishonesty. And then you talk about "wasting time"??

There's no "evil" in the commentary. The guy's point seems to be selling the military through sports and the association of jingoism with sports. And on the last I have the same question, since the two are wholly unrelated. As somebody else already said, sports are supposed to be a relief from all that.

This guy says that too.

See if you can manage to discuss your own topic without painting it over with all sorts of irrelevant crap. See if you can actually make an honest point.

 

[rightwinger]

The rockets red glare
The bombs bursting in air

What makes you think it is a war anthem?

 

[mudwhistle]

Not shit indeed. So why make it up?

Back to the OP -- where does the guy say it's "evil"? Or make any value judgement? He says it's a "war anthem", which it is. So what?

Further, the "buy"/"sell" routine is a sports point/counterpoint where you're supposed to take a stand. So this guy did, and another guy took the opposite stand. That's dialogue. Again, so what?

Playing dumb seems to be your m.o.

You also have a distinct problem with understanding satire.


First of all, there was some sort of implication assumed when an obvious pacifist starts describing something in derogatory terms that it is inherently evil in nature. How do I know he's a pacifist? Well, he didn't produce a membership card that says "I'm a damned pacifist", but I was able to surmise that he was by his rhetoric.

Second, knowing Russia's history tells the story that the song itself doesn't, so please, stop wasting my time.

Third, I just think you're trying to piss me off by acting clueless.

Epic fail.


End of discussion

Epic failure is right; you post a story and then want to talk about what you inject into it? Wtf for? You inject meaning into the commentary, you inject sentiments that aren't in the Russian national anthem, you pretend an anthem about a country is about shooting dogs... and then you run away when called on it? Then you want to dance between a song and a history too? Epic dishonesty. And then you talk about "wasting time"??

There's no "evil" in the commentary. The guy's point seems to be selling the military through sports and the association of jingoism with sports. And on the last I have the same question, since the two are wholly unrelated. As somebody else already said, sports are supposed to be a relief from all that.

This guy says that too.

See if you can manage to discuss your own topic without painting it over with all sorts of irrelevant crap. See if you can actually make an honest point.

Alright Sparky.

FYI, I don't feel the need to explain the color of shit to somebody who knows better.

In case you can't figure out, that is a metaphor


.

My example was no less ludicrous than his.

That was my point.

The difference is I wasn't serious. He is.


You failed to recognize that.

 

[mudwhistle]

The rockets red glare
The bombs bursting in air

What makes you think it is a war anthem?

Using pogo's rational it could very easily be a fireworks display. If you want to be a retard or cherry pick the issue like Pogo, it can easily mistaken for that.

I guess one has to know the friggen story behind the song to really understand it's motivations.


I don't think it exhibits a love for warfare. More like a love for freedom.


But that is why the song was chosen anyway.


It's clear that the song is an example of "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder".

If you have a problem with America I can see why you would have reservations about it's anthem.

And voicing opposition to it would most likely result in a serious ass-whipping if in mixed company.

 

[rightwinger]

The rockets red glare
The bombs bursting in air

What makes you think it is a war anthem?

Using pogo's rational it could very easily be a fireworks display. If you want to be a retard it can easily mistaken for that.

I guess one has to know the friggen story behind the song to really understand it's motivations.


I don't think it exhibits a love for warfare. More like a love for freedom.


But that is why the song was chosen anyway.


It's clear that the song is an example of "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder".

If you have a problem with America I can see why you would have reservations about it's anthem.

And voicing opposition to it would most likely result in a serious ass-whipping if in mixed company.

Nobody loves war

The song was written during the War or 1812 and celebrates a brave stand by US forces against a British bombardment. It is a war song set to music to a British drinking song

America the Beautiful is an ode to America
Our National Anthem celebrates a military victory

 

[mudwhistle]

The rockets red glare
The bombs bursting in air

What makes you think it is a war anthem?

Using pogo's rational it could very easily be a fireworks display. If you want to be a retard it can easily mistaken for that.

I guess one has to know the friggen story behind the song to really understand it's motivations.


I don't think it exhibits a love for warfare. More like a love for freedom.


But that is why the song was chosen anyway.


It's clear that the song is an example of "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder".

If you have a problem with America I can see why you would have reservations about it's anthem.

And voicing opposition to it would most likely result in a serious ass-whipping if in mixed company.

Nobody loves war

The song was written during the War or 1812 and celebrates a brave stand by US forces against a British bombardment. It is a war song set to music to a British drinking song

America the Beautiful is an ode to America
Our National Anthem celebrates a military victory

Nobody loves war?

Well, isn't that what this thread is about. The accusation by a journalist on ESPN that the song should be dropped because of the love for war? A love that doesn't exist?

Why else would he call it a war anthem?

Oh, I guess since he didn't say "Love for war" it doesn't count.

 

[Pogo]

The rockets red glare
The bombs bursting in air

What makes you think it is a war anthem?

Using pogo's rational it could very easily be a fireworks display. If you want to be a retard it can easily mistaken for that.

I guess one has to know the friggen story behind the song to really understand it's motivations.


I don't think it exhibits a love for warfare. More like a love for freedom.


But that is why the song was chosen anyway.


It's clear that the song is an example of "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder".

If you have a problem with America I can see why you would have reservations about it's anthem.

And voicing opposition to it would most likely result in a serious ass-whipping if in mixed company.

Nobody loves war

The song was written during the War or 1812 and celebrates a brave stand by US forces against a British bombardment. It is a war song set to music to a British drinking song

America the Beautiful is an ode to America
Our National Anthem celebrates a military victory

Right, and one specific battle, and really at base the song is about a flag -- not even the country.

That's what I find interesting -- other countries wax poetic about their homeland, we go all into a cloth fetish.

Same as the pledge of allegiance, except that's something most of the world doesn't even have (I think the Phillipines is the only one). What does it say about us that we're that degree of symbol-minded?

(Or as SpockSmoker might call it, "metaphorical")