Enough with the MiGs, and Zelensky should stop asking for them, and stop asking for a no-fly zone.

Stormy Daniels

Gold Member
Mar 19, 2018
7,570
2,812
265
It's pretty clear at this point that NATO giving Ukraine MiGs is a terrible idea.
  • Ukraine is barely using the fighter jets they currently have, so it doesn't make much sense that they would need more.
  • Russia has heavy anti-air defense systems in place inside Ukraine right now, making air missions by Ukraine very high risk compared to other methods of attack and defense (possibly part of the reason Ukraine is engaging in relatively few air missions).
  • Flying military aircraft isn't like driving a car, and it takes entire teams of trained personnel to get a single aircraft into the air, and the necessary training are not universal among types of aircraft.
  • There are a variety of other technical matters, from radar to system communication protocols, that need to intertwine effectively to integrate a certain type of aircraft into Ukraine's broader military systems, and there is currently no indication that the aircraft would be readily available for Ukraine to even use any time soon (thanks Sen. Kelly for explaining that fact).
  • The logistical challenges to even getting the aircraft into Ukrainian hands make it a near impossibility because any aircraft flying from a NATO facility into Ukrainian airspace (even if flown by Ukrainian pilots) would likely be treated but Putin as a NATO attack, and would give him an excuse to extend his war to all of NATO.
  • And finally, perhaps the most important reason: UKRAINIAN AIRSPACE REMAINS CONTESTED. Yes, this means that Ukrainians are currently engaging in effective air defense, but it also indicates that the Russians have been effective at preventing Ukraine from maintaining air superiority. Russian aircraft are largely operating from within Russian airspace. It would be ill advised for Ukraine to attempt all out air offensives, simply to be slaughtered by Russian anti-aircraft SAMs. In the long term, there is a very strong possibility that this war will entangle NATO at one point or another, and NATO should therefore avoid wasting important resources like aircraft in such a way.

The suggestion simply does not offer realistic assistance, nor is there a realistic method to implement it anyway. And at this point, Zelensky is starting to do himself more harm than good by continuing to ask for it. The same is true by asking for a no-fly zone. He should stop asking for either, because the continued requests are starting to erode the image he has built up for himself thus far, and are betraying a weakness that he would be wise to avoid showing.

Zelensky came to his office as a former entertainer turned politician. And his artistic ability has certainly been an asset in these times. He understands how to appeal to people's emotional sides, how to portray the image that other people may need to see of him, and this has made him an inspirational, even romantic, figure of steely courage to his countrymen and the world. No doubt he is inspiring his people, citizens and soldiers alike, to remain steadfast in the face of Russia's overwhelming assault. He's clearly been effective at influencing the global narrative to see Russia's invasion as a prelude to greater continental, even global, war if Russia succeeds.

But the question remains whether he is more than an actor playing a role, or whether he is a capable commander-in-chief. The continual requests for MiGs and a no-fly zone would imply the latter. It sounds amateur. It's starting to make Zelensky look like he's exhausted the extent to which is skills can provide worthwhile leadership to continue resisting the Russian assault. It should be clear to anyone that asking NATO to implement a no-fly zone is asking them to fully enter the war against Russia, and to do so in a clumsy manner. Asking for MiGs is not only asking NATO to take a huge risk to clumsily enter the war against Russia, but it also makes Zelensky look like he doesn't understand the actual military situation. By communicating these things to the world, Zelensky is likely enboldening Putin. Putin is seeing this sense of continual desperation and smelling blood in the waters. Especially in combination with Zelensky's continued engagement in Russia's phony peace overtures.
 
  • Flying military aircraft isn't like driving a car, and it takes entire teams of trained personnel to get a single aircraft into the air, and the necessary training are not universal among types of aircraft.
  • There are a variety of other technical matters, from radar to system communication protocols, that need to intertwine effectively to integrate a certain type of aircraft into Ukraine's broader military systems, and there is currently no indication that the aircraft would be readily available for Ukraine to even use any time soon (thanks Sen. Kelly for explaining that fact).
You're a fucking moron and so is Sen. Kelly.

The MiG-29 is the main fighter jet in the Ukranian Air Force and has been for decades. That's why they are asking for MiG-29s in the first place rather than F-16s or something, moron.

They will be able to use the MiGs right away.
 
F**K Zalensky andF**K Ukraine....If they do not have a military to defend against invasions, where is all the US aid going????

The US pledged $1.8 billion in military aid to Ukraine since 2001— 30.8% of total foreign aid to the country. This is consistent with the international average for US foreign aid with 30% of foreign assistance spent on the military. The US spent $284 million on military foreign aid to the country in 2020.
Since 2001, economic aid was $4.5 billion or 68% of total foreign aid to Ukraine. In 2020, the US spent $395.9 million on economic aid to the country. According to the Greenbook data, judicial system development, control of sexually transmitted diseases, and material relief assistance were the three biggest programs to receive economic aid. Together, they constituted about 30% of the 2020 economic obligations to Ukraine.
 
It's pretty clear at this point that NATO giving Ukraine MiGs is a terrible idea.
  • Ukraine is barely using the fighter jets they currently have, so it doesn't make much sense that they would need more.
  • Russia has heavy anti-air defense systems in place inside Ukraine right now, making air missions by Ukraine very high risk compared to other methods of attack and defense (possibly part of the reason Ukraine is engaging in relatively few air missions).
  • Flying military aircraft isn't like driving a car, and it takes entire teams of trained personnel to get a single aircraft into the air, and the necessary training are not universal among types of aircraft.
  • There are a variety of other technical matters, from radar to system communication protocols, that need to intertwine effectively to integrate a certain type of aircraft into Ukraine's broader military systems, and there is currently no indication that the aircraft would be readily available for Ukraine to even use any time soon (thanks Sen. Kelly for explaining that fact).
  • The logistical challenges to even getting the aircraft into Ukrainian hands make it a near impossibility because any aircraft flying from a NATO facility into Ukrainian airspace (even if flown by Ukrainian pilots) would likely be treated but Putin as a NATO attack, and would give him an excuse to extend his war to all of NATO.
  • And finally, perhaps the most important reason: UKRAINIAN AIRSPACE REMAINS CONTESTED. Yes, this means that Ukrainians are currently engaging in effective air defense, but it also indicates that the Russians have been effective at preventing Ukraine from maintaining air superiority. Russian aircraft are largely operating from within Russian airspace. It would be ill advised for Ukraine to attempt all out air offensives, simply to be slaughtered by Russian anti-aircraft SAMs. In the long term, there is a very strong possibility that this war will entangle NATO at one point or another, and NATO should therefore avoid wasting important resources like aircraft in such a way.

The suggestion simply does not offer realistic assistance, nor is there a realistic method to implement it anyway. And at this point, Zelensky is starting to do himself more harm than good by continuing to ask for it. The same is true by asking for a no-fly zone. He should stop asking for either, because the continued requests are starting to erode the image he has built up for himself thus far, and are betraying a weakness that he would be wise to avoid showing.

Zelensky came to his office as a former entertainer turned politician. And his artistic ability has certainly been an asset in these times. He understands how to appeal to people's emotional sides, how to portray the image that other people may need to see of him, and this has made him an inspirational, even romantic, figure of steely courage to his countrymen and the world. No doubt he is inspiring his people, citizens and soldiers alike, to remain steadfast in the face of Russia's overwhelming assault. He's clearly been effective at influencing the global narrative to see Russia's invasion as a prelude to greater continental, even global, war if Russia succeeds.

But the question remains whether he is more than an actor playing a role, or whether he is a capable commander-in-chief. The continual requests for MiGs and a no-fly zone would imply the latter. It sounds amateur. It's starting to make Zelensky look like he's exhausted the extent to which is skills can provide worthwhile leadership to continue resisting the Russian assault. It should be clear to anyone that asking NATO to implement a no-fly zone is asking them to fully enter the war against Russia, and to do so in a clumsy manner. Asking for MiGs is not only asking NATO to take a huge risk to clumsily enter the war against Russia, but it also makes Zelensky look like he doesn't understand the actual military situation. By communicating these things to the world, Zelensky is likely enboldening Putin. Putin is seeing this sense of continual desperation and smelling blood in the waters. Especially in combination with Zelensky's continued engagement in Russia's phony peace overtures.

Maybe your best post ever!
 
You're a fucking moron and so is Sen. Kelly.

The MiG-29 is the main fighter jet in the Ukranian Air Force and has been for decades. That's why they are asking for MiG-29s in the first place rather than F-16s or something, moron.

They will be able to use the MiGs right away.
No, they will not. The Polish MiG's have been refitted to NATO standards. They have glass cockpits and avionics that are in English, NATO IFF and NCTR, fire control computers, and databus.

They are made to be interoperable with NATO air forces, not Ukraine's. They can fire R-73's (IR guided), but I don't think R-77's (Radar-guided).

A Polish MiG would identify a Ukrainian MiG as an enemy fighter.

They would have to be converted back, or the Ukrainian pilots and maintainers would need to be retrained. It wouldn't be a rapid integration.
 
It's clear right now that Fuck Biden and NATO is just stringing Zelenskyy along keeping the fighting going. It's cruel. Nudging death by dangling the idea that Russia will surrender any day is inhumane. It isn't going to happen.
 
It's pretty clear at this point that NATO giving Ukraine MiGs is a terrible idea.
  • Ukraine is barely using the fighter jets they currently have, so it doesn't make much sense that they would need more.
  • Russia has heavy anti-air defense systems in place inside Ukraine right now, making air missions by Ukraine very high risk compared to other methods of attack and defense (possibly part of the reason Ukraine is engaging in relatively few air missions).
  • Flying military aircraft isn't like driving a car, and it takes entire teams of trained personnel to get a single aircraft into the air, and the necessary training are not universal among types of aircraft.
  • There are a variety of other technical matters, from radar to system communication protocols, that need to intertwine effectively to integrate a certain type of aircraft into Ukraine's broader military systems, and there is currently no indication that the aircraft would be readily available for Ukraine to even use any time soon (thanks Sen. Kelly for explaining that fact).
  • The logistical challenges to even getting the aircraft into Ukrainian hands make it a near impossibility because any aircraft flying from a NATO facility into Ukrainian airspace (even if flown by Ukrainian pilots) would likely be treated but Putin as a NATO attack, and would give him an excuse to extend his war to all of NATO.
  • And finally, perhaps the most important reason: UKRAINIAN AIRSPACE REMAINS CONTESTED. Yes, this means that Ukrainians are currently engaging in effective air defense, but it also indicates that the Russians have been effective at preventing Ukraine from maintaining air superiority. Russian aircraft are largely operating from within Russian airspace. It would be ill advised for Ukraine to attempt all out air offensives, simply to be slaughtered by Russian anti-aircraft SAMs. In the long term, there is a very strong possibility that this war will entangle NATO at one point or another, and NATO should therefore avoid wasting important resources like aircraft in such a way.

The suggestion simply does not offer realistic assistance, nor is there a realistic method to implement it anyway. And at this point, Zelensky is starting to do himself more harm than good by continuing to ask for it. The same is true by asking for a no-fly zone. He should stop asking for either, because the continued requests are starting to erode the image he has built up for himself thus far, and are betraying a weakness that he would be wise to avoid showing.

Zelensky came to his office as a former entertainer turned politician. And his artistic ability has certainly been an asset in these times. He understands how to appeal to people's emotional sides, how to portray the image that other people may need to see of him, and this has made him an inspirational, even romantic, figure of steely courage to his countrymen and the world. No doubt he is inspiring his people, citizens and soldiers alike, to remain steadfast in the face of Russia's overwhelming assault. He's clearly been effective at influencing the global narrative to see Russia's invasion as a prelude to greater continental, even global, war if Russia succeeds.

But the question remains whether he is more than an actor playing a role, or whether he is a capable commander-in-chief. The continual requests for MiGs and a no-fly zone would imply the latter. It sounds amateur. It's starting to make Zelensky look like he's exhausted the extent to which is skills can provide worthwhile leadership to continue resisting the Russian assault. It should be clear to anyone that asking NATO to implement a no-fly zone is asking them to fully enter the war against Russia, and to do so in a clumsy manner. Asking for MiGs is not only asking NATO to take a huge risk to clumsily enter the war against Russia, but it also makes Zelensky look like he doesn't understand the actual military situation. By communicating these things to the world, Zelensky is likely enboldening Putin. Putin is seeing this sense of continual desperation and smelling blood in the waters. Especially in combination with Zelensky's continued engagement in Russia's phony peace overtures.
IF the US (and nato although it had to rely on the US in both Kosovo and Libya) chose to establish a no fly over Ukraine, it would first have to destroy all the russian radar sites and fixed missile sites, and then the russian air force. I have no idea how many American pilots and airmen would be killed doing that. I'm confident the US could do it. But it's not going to happen. Biden is not risking WWIII over this, nor does he want to play his air power card, and the losses would make playing it again maybe impossible. And cynically, Biden's interests in using up Russian weapons and making Putin a wanted criminal sort of run contrary. (I'm not sure any president since Hoover has not at least bordered on being a sociopath. Maybe Carter, and that didn't work out well)

After watching Zelensky's video from today at his Washington presentation, I think Biden better send every Switchblade 300 we have pretty damn fast, or else even the dems in congress may impeach him.
 
And finally, perhaps the most important reason: UKRAINIAN AIRSPACE REMAINS CONTESTED. Yes, this means that Ukrainians are currently engaging in effective air defense, but it also indicates that the Russians have been effective at preventing Ukraine from maintaining air superiority.
Ukraine was never expected to have air superiority.

The real question is why hasn't Putin gained air superiority? It's 2 weeks, the expectation was 72-96 hours.

Ukraine has been giving them the what-for, is why....
 
Zelensky is asking for any and every he can get in the form of help.

This he will not get but he WILL get more Javelins, stingers, drones, and maybe ship busting missiles
 
Ukraine was never expected to have air superiority.

The real question is why hasn't Putin gained air superiority? It's 2 weeks, the expectation was 72-96 hours.

Ukraine has been giving them the what-for, is why....
Ukraine and Russia have the same SAM system and they are very effective
 
Ukraine simply has not and can not inflict the kind of damage on Russia that Russia can and has on Ukraine. There are no bombed out neighborhoods in Russia. There won't be any either. Ukraine should not continue until it is a cinder.
 
Ukraine and Russia have the same SAM system and they are very effective
Russia's SAMs are much more modern. S-400's and upgraded S-300's with longer range missiles and better radars. Ukraine has some S-300's, which are equivalent to a first generation Patriot. They also have some shorter range Russian systems, Strela, Tor. They have put them to good use, which was the point of my comment.

Putin is finding himself bogged down, and discovering his log infrastructure isn't what he thought it was.
 
Take Putin's offer. No NATO and the Russian speaking regions independent.
Nato was never in the cards for Ukraine. Putin wanted to occupy Kiev and install a Yanukovych govt with trade allied to Russia as is Belarus. That's no longer in the cards either.

And Ukraine is not giving up donbass. If Nato has to use Ukraine to bleed Russia for a decade there, it will. And the Ukranians will volunteer.

I wonder what will happen with Crimea. Putin could easily have been given back his 99 year leases on naval bases, and even allowed to supply them over land. But now .....

Russian first speakers are a minority in both donbass and Crimea. After Putin's clusterfk, I'd not like to be one of those folks.
 
Zelensky is asking for any and every he can get in the form of help.

This he will not get but he WILL get more Javelins, stingers, drones, and maybe ship busting missiles

Right and when Ukraine is sadly defeated he can blame it on not having migs or a no-fly zone.
 
It's pretty clear at this point that NATO giving Ukraine MiGs is a terrible idea.
  • Ukraine is barely using the fighter jets they currently have, so it doesn't make much sense that they would need more.
  • Russia has heavy anti-air defense systems in place inside Ukraine right now, making air missions by Ukraine very high risk compared to other methods of attack and defense (possibly part of the reason Ukraine is engaging in relatively few air missions).
  • Flying military aircraft isn't like driving a car, and it takes entire teams of trained personnel to get a single aircraft into the air, and the necessary training are not universal among types of aircraft.
  • There are a variety of other technical matters, from radar to system communication protocols, that need to intertwine effectively to integrate a certain type of aircraft into Ukraine's broader military systems, and there is currently no indication that the aircraft would be readily available for Ukraine to even use any time soon (thanks Sen. Kelly for explaining that fact).
  • The logistical challenges to even getting the aircraft into Ukrainian hands make it a near impossibility because any aircraft flying from a NATO facility into Ukrainian airspace (even if flown by Ukrainian pilots) would likely be treated but Putin as a NATO attack, and would give him an excuse to extend his war to all of NATO.
  • And finally, perhaps the most important reason: UKRAINIAN AIRSPACE REMAINS CONTESTED. Yes, this means that Ukrainians are currently engaging in effective air defense, but it also indicates that the Russians have been effective at preventing Ukraine from maintaining air superiority. Russian aircraft are largely operating from within Russian airspace. It would be ill advised for Ukraine to attempt all out air offensives, simply to be slaughtered by Russian anti-aircraft SAMs. In the long term, there is a very strong possibility that this war will entangle NATO at one point or another, and NATO should therefore avoid wasting important resources like aircraft in such a way.

The suggestion simply does not offer realistic assistance, nor is there a realistic method to implement it anyway. And at this point, Zelensky is starting to do himself more harm than good by continuing to ask for it. The same is true by asking for a no-fly zone. He should stop asking for either, because the continued requests are starting to erode the image he has built up for himself thus far, and are betraying a weakness that he would be wise to avoid showing.

Zelensky came to his office as a former entertainer turned politician. And his artistic ability has certainly been an asset in these times. He understands how to appeal to people's emotional sides, how to portray the image that other people may need to see of him, and this has made him an inspirational, even romantic, figure of steely courage to his countrymen and the world. No doubt he is inspiring his people, citizens and soldiers alike, to remain steadfast in the face of Russia's overwhelming assault. He's clearly been effective at influencing the global narrative to see Russia's invasion as a prelude to greater continental, even global, war if Russia succeeds.

But the question remains whether he is more than an actor playing a role, or whether he is a capable commander-in-chief. The continual requests for MiGs and a no-fly zone would imply the latter. It sounds amateur. It's starting to make Zelensky look like he's exhausted the extent to which is skills can provide worthwhile leadership to continue resisting the Russian assault. It should be clear to anyone that asking NATO to implement a no-fly zone is asking them to fully enter the war against Russia, and to do so in a clumsy manner. Asking for MiGs is not only asking NATO to take a huge risk to clumsily enter the war against Russia, but it also makes Zelensky look like he doesn't understand the actual military situation. By communicating these things to the world, Zelensky is likely enboldening Putin. Putin is seeing this sense of continual desperation and smelling blood in the waters. Especially in combination with Zelensky's continued engagement in Russia's phony peace overtures.
It's only a terrible idea, if you want to help the Russians win.
 
Nato was never in the cards for Ukraine. Putin wanted to occupy Kiev and install a Yanukovych govt with trade allied to Russia as is Belarus. That's no longer in the cards either.

And Ukraine is not giving up donbass. If Nato has to use Ukraine to bleed Russia for a decade there, it will. And the Ukranians will volunteer.

I wonder what will happen with Crimea. Putin could easily have been given back his 99 year leases on naval bases, and even allowed to supply them over land. But now .....

Russian first speakers are a minority in both donbass and Crimea. After Putin's clusterfk, I'd not like to be one of those folks.

Where are people getting NATO was never in the cards for Ukraine? The US and NATO having being suggesting it since the Bush days.


 

Forum List

Back
Top