Ending World Poverty

[BasicHumanUnit]

You could give a number of people a million dollars and they would be broke within a month. They would spend it like it was water. You will never end poverty no matter how much you spend on it.

But the same people who think taking from the rich and giving it to the poor will solve world poverty...... are the same people who believe social safety is as simple as taking everyones guns away.

 

[BasicHumanUnit]

Bullshit. Most of the developed countries in the world have free health care. Most them also have either free or next to free College education. Some of them even pay their students to go to college! Neither of those things have been "abandoned." There is much more. To find out about it, you should watch the Michael Moore documentary, "Where to invade next."

Free everything for everybody !!!
Yep, it's so simple a 5 year old should understand it.

But once past 5 and reason sets in, adults understand that's a fantasy that ALWAYS fails spectacularly.

 

[Dragonlady]

You are right. But when it gets right down to it, how can anybody know how much wealth the top 1% has. It isn't in their best interest to tell anybody. The wealthy are VERY good at hiding their wealth. Such as through phony overseas companies.


From what I found in looking it up, since president Johnson's war on poverty, the U.S. has spent around 15 trillion combating it. And we now spend around 800 billion to a trillion a year combating it. According to what my original thread stated, which I still think is factual, something does seem to be amiss. Maybe most of the money disappears into bureaucracy. Which can't be all that bad. Because bureaucrats pay taxes. Also, there is the example of one time the U.S. paying $10,000 dollars for a toilet seat lid for one of their aircraft.

Despite all that, I think spending money on safety net programs is a good thing. And beyond that, actually giving people employment. The U.S. could, for example, create a car company that made cars that could easily last 200 years. Imagine any privately run car company trying to compete with that. These days, many products are made with planned obsolescence in mind. So that people will keep buying their products. Most of our economic system is based on waste. But getting back to employment, what we need is FDR's Second Economic Bill Of Rights. Too bad he died before he could see it implemented.

The problem with American social spending is that so much of it goes to administration. Everything is "means tested", and there is an overemphasis on "fraud prevention". One program which was proposed in Canada was to be means tested, and they discovered if was going to cost MORE to complete the means testing than the benefits the program provided.

One way to cut costs to eliminate SNAP benefits and just increase the minimum wage as well as welfare and/or disability payments to cover this amount. Between the means testing, and the cost of sending out the money, you could increase benefits while cutting the overall cost and shrinking government.

Wash, rinse and repeat for "earned income credits". Increasing the minimum wage would eliminate most of this program, and reduce the size of government. Like food stamps, this is a "made in America" program which is just a big subsidy for some of the most profitable corporations in America. PAY PEOPLE REASONABLE WAGES.

Another way of cutting costs, is to upgrade government computer systems. The Social Security system is a prime example. The system is a patchwork of computer systems going back to the dawn of the computer age. In the 1990's, the Province of New Brunswick cut $300 million dollars from the annual provincial budget, without cutting a dime of services, just by upgrading and modernizing their systems.

NB had a population of 938,000 people, at the time, which gives you an idea of the return on investment. It was dubbed "McKenna's Miracle", Frank McKenna being the Premier at the time. A good friend of mine was the Head Consultant from KPMG Management Consultants who is the real "Miracle" here. I was initially hoping that DOGE would be doing something similar when they first went it, because the potential certainly exists.

Then there are work requirements. Our church decided to participate in a "workfare" program in the 1990's, and have the workers paint the recreation hall at our church, instead of getting volunteers to do it. We had to pay someone to supervise them and fill out the paperwork. It would have cost us nothing but the price of the paint to have the volunteers do it. The program was an abject failure. Employers cited the costs of supervision and paperwork, and it cancelled soon after.

 

[Dragonlady]

Free everything for everybody !!!
Yep, it's so simple a 5 year old should understand it.

But once past 5 and reason sets in, adults understand that's a fantasy that ALWAYS fails spectacularly.

How to tell us you're completely ignorant of health care in the free world, without saying it. Americans are living shorter, sicker lives than any nation in the free world, and your life expectancy is DECLINING. Your health care system is the most expensive and the least effective in the world.

Your post is COMPLETE bullshit from your first sentence to your last. YOUR system failed spectacularly during the covid pandemic. The highest rate of disease and death in the first world. Refrigerator trucks to hold the dead outside of big city hospitals. ONLY IN AMERICA.

Universal healthcare isn't "free for everyone". Taxpayers and employers contribute to pay for it, moron. But everyone in the country legally has a health care card unrestricted access to health care with ZERO DOLLARS in co-pays.

Please provide links to the health care systems which have "failed spectacularly", other than the American health care system.

Ignorance and gullibility is the MAGA way.

 

[Maxdeath]

Bullshit.

Nice reply. When you grow up and get into high school you will learn enough about human nature to understand that not everyone is financially responsible. You will learn that not everyone wants to work 40 hours a week so that they can maintain a high standard of living. Not everyone is mentally stable enough that they want the responsibility of having to deal with day to day challenges. Not everyone lives in an area that has enough economic opportunity to keep everyone employed or farming.
Then maybe you will also learn that nature has a way of producing enough rain in some regions to allow for successful agriculture to continue year after year. From there you might learn about such things as natural disasters and how they affect an area and the people living in those areas.

Hell you might even learn that the U.S. has spent almost 21 Trillion dollars on homeless and the poor and yet the numbers are still increasing. Then you might by accident learn that the U.S. is 37 Trillion in debt and can not keep handing out money. Who knows with a bit of luck you might even learn to understand that congress is responsible for writing the tax code and they are not about to write a code that makes them or their donors owe more money.

But from there you might looks of it it will be many years yet before before you have to learn these facts.

 

[Maxdeath]

How to tell us you're completely ignorant of health care in the free world, without saying it. Americans are living shorter, sicker lives than any nation in the free world, and your life expectancy is DECLINING. Your health care system is the most expensive and the least effective in the world.

Your post is COMPLETE bullshit from your first sentence to your last. YOUR system failed spectacularly during the covid pandemic. The highest rate of disease and death in the first world. Refrigerator trucks to hold the dead outside of big city hospitals. ONLY IN AMERICA.

Universal healthcare isn't "free for everyone". Taxpayers and employers contribute to pay for it, moron. But everyone in the country legally has a health care card unrestricted access to health care with ZERO DOLLARS in co-pays.

Please provide links to the health care systems which have "failed spectacularly", other than the American health care system.

Ignorance and gullibility is the MAGA way.

I will give you that the U.S. system is not the best but they do have fewer people then Canada or Great Britain dying while waiting for a doctor to examine them. They do have shorter wait periods for non emergency surgery than both those countries. Most Americans get cutting edge medical care where those two are usually years behind. American emergency is required to treat no matter if you pay or not.
But hey it is what it is free is always better until you need better

 

[Dragonlady]

I will give you that the U.S. system is not the best but they do have fewer people then Canada or Great Britain dying while waiting for a doctor to examine them. They do have shorter wait periods for non emergency surgery than both those countries. Most Americans get cutting edge medical care where those two are usually years behind. American emergency is required to treat no matter if you pay or not.
But hey it is what it is free is always better until you need better

No they don't. Because if you don't have health insurance NO DOCTOR is going to examine you until you're extremely ill because you can't afford the copays. You wait until you're so sick you have no choice. It costs $1000 to go to Emergency, even if you have insurance.

As for people "dying while waiting", that mostly a myth. We have a triage system. If you walk into the hospital with a heart attack, you're going to be seen immediately. The guy with the cut on his hand will have to wait. Heart attack goes to the head of the line.

Me and my friend went to see about knee replacement surgery at the same time. 6 weeks later, she had both knees replaced, and I was placed on a waiting list. She could barely walk even with two canes, and was taking strong drugs for the pain. I was walking unassisted, and taking Alieve. Triage. I spent less than $300 on my knee replacement. This included paying for gas to the hospital, and a raised toilet seat when I got home. No co-pays.

I'm starting to have twinges in my hip. Time to get in line for that one. By the time I actually need the surgery, I'll be at the top of the line. We go for our annual check ups, vaccines, and things get caught early. Cancers, heart conditions, dietary problems are treated early, when it's cheaper and a fully recovery more likely. We spend HALF the amount of money you do, in large part because you're so much sicker before you seek treatment, but also because you spend 30 cents of every healthcare dollar on Administration, and we spend 7 cents. Some European countries pay as little as 4%.

Universal healthcare means EVERYONE is covered. Including students or workers in the country on visas, immigrants, and people. There was a Hollywood actor during covid who talked about getting covid in Vancouver while working on the set of whatever movie/TV show he was shooting there, and he said his entire treatment and hospitalization was covered by his work visa, with no copays and no paperwork, just like a real Canadian.

 

[Maxdeath]

No they don't. Because if you don't have health insurance NO DOCTOR is going to examine you until you're extremely ill because you can't afford the copays. You wait until you're so sick you have no choice. It costs $1000 to go to Emergency, even if you have insurance.

As for people "dying while waiting", that mostly a myth. We have a triage system. If you walk into the hospital with a heart attack, you're going to be seen immediately. The guy with the cut on his hand will have to wait. Heart attack goes to the head of the line.

Me and my friend went to see about knee replacement surgery at the same time. 6 weeks later, she had both knees replaced, and I was placed on a waiting list. She could barely walk even with two canes, and was taking strong drugs for the pain. I was walking unassisted, and taking Alieve. Triage. I spent less than $300 on my knee replacement. This included paying for gas to the hospital, and a raised toilet seat when I got home. No co-pays.

I'm starting to have twinges in my hip. Time to get in line for that one. By the time I actually need the surgery, I'll be at the top of the line. We go for our annual check ups, vaccines, and things get caught early. Cancers, heart conditions, dietary problems are treated early, when it's cheaper and a fully recovery more likely. We spend HALF the amount of money you do, but then you spend 30 cents of every healthcare dollar on Administration, and we spend 7 cents. Some European countries pay as little as 4%.

Universal healthcare means EVERYONE is covered. Including students or workers in the country on visas, immigrants, and people. There was a Hollywood actor during covid who talked about getting covid in Vancouver while working on the set of whatever movie/TV show he was shooting there, and he said his entire treatment and hospitalization was covered by his work visa, with no copays and no paperwork, just like a real Canadian.

Boy you really have no clue about your own country.
In 2023-24 the number of those who died waiting for healthcare is estimated at between 15,474 and as high as 28,077. The Uk has had 121,000 die while waiting for healthcare. Since 2008 the U.S. has had less then 10,000 die each year.
Do you see any difference in the numbers?
You are used to waiting almost a year or more for non emergency surgery where they will use procedures and parts that were pretty much stopped being used because of better parts and procedures that are more common in the U.S.
But hey if you do not mind a larger percentage of dying while waiting, if you do not mind being in a large ward, if you do not mind old materials and older procedures then free is better.

 

[initforme]

To end world poverty demands a shrinking population across the globe. Perhaps the birthrate declines are what the dr ordered.

 

[Dragonlady]

Boy you really have no clue about your own country.
In 2023-24 the number of those who died waiting for healthcare is estimated at between 15,474 and as high as 28,077. The Uk has had 121,000 die while waiting for healthcare. Since 2008 the U.S. has had less then 10,000 die each year.
Do you see any difference in the numbers?
You are used to waiting almost a year or more for non emergency surgery where they will use procedures and parts that were pretty much stopped being used because of better parts and procedures that are more common in the U.S.
But hey if you do not mind a larger percentage of dying while waiting, if you do not mind being in a large ward, if you do not mind old materials and older procedures then free is better.

Where are you getting these ridiculous numbers???? You'd better have a credible link for them. Ok, I found it. The article was in the National Post, and quoted number provided by "secondstreet.org"

"Founded in 2005 to support Canada's conservative movement by networking best practices and ideas pertaining to limited government, free enterprise."

About - SecondStreet.Org

We tell stories of Canadians from all walks of life and how they’re affected – for better or worse – by government decisions.

secondstreet.org

From the National Post story which you failed to link to:

The report is the latest “Died on a Waiting List” policy brief from SecondStreet since the conservative-leaning organization began tracking wait-list deaths in the spring of 2018. Since then, the think tank has counted 74,677 cases where Canadians passed away while waiting for treatments. These range from potentially life-saving ones, such as heart operations or cancer therapy, to life-enhancing ones, such as cataract surgeries and hip replacements.

More than 74,000 Canadians have died on health-care wait lists since 2018: report

At least 15,474 Canadians died in 2023-24 alone before receiving various surgeries or diagnostic scans. The true number is likely double.

nationalpost.com

These are not people who died while waiting for life saving surgery, these are people who died while on a waiting list for ANY medical treatment - including cataracts, MRI's, and hip replacements. If I died tomorrow, I'd be included in that number because technically I'm on a waiting list for hip surgery.

This is how the right inflates numbers to make single payer health care look bad. The Fraser Institute (another libertarian think tank), does similar "studies". They did a study where they asked doctors what percentage of their patients went to the USA for treatment. The multiple choice answers didn't include 0%, just "1% or less", which was the overwhelming answer because mostly the number is zero percent. From this the Fraser Institute extrapolated that 1% of all Canadians - 34,000 at the time, sought treatment in the USA. The real number, from US hospital reports, was around 12,000, and most of those people were in the USA for business or vacation when they took sick.

The USA has 45,000 people per year dying because they lack health insurance coverage. Extrapolate those numbers for 20 years and that's more than a million Americans who actually died since the turn of the century, because they had no health insurance.

1/3 of all American bankruptcies are due to medical debt. I don't know of anyone in Canada who went bankrupt from medical debt. They may have lost everything because of illness and an inability to work, but not because they had to pay tens of thousands of dollars to their doctors or hospitals.

But most telling is your life expectancy is DECLINING, and you're the ONLY nation in the first world where this is happening. You're fatter and more unhealthy than any first world nation and yet you twice as much health care than ANY of us.

RESULTS MATTER. You're certainly not getting anything close to your money's worth.

 

[Maxdeath]

Where are you getting these ridiculous numbers???? You'd better have a credible link for them. Ok, I found it. The article was in the National Post, and quoted number provided by "secondstreet.org"

"Founded in 2005 to support Canada's conservative movement by networking best practices and ideas pertaining to limited government, free enterprise."

About - SecondStreet.Org

We tell stories of Canadians from all walks of life and how they’re affected – for better or worse – by government decisions.

secondstreet.org

From the National Post story which you failed to link to:


These are not people who died while waiting for life saving surgery, these are people who died while on a waiting list for ANY medical treatment - including cataracts, MRI's, and hip replacements. If I died tomorrow, I'd be included in that number because technically I'm on a waiting list for hip surgery.

This is how the right inflates numbers to make single payer health care look bad. The Fraser Institute (another libertarian think tank), does similar "studies". They did a study where they asked doctors what percentage of their patients went to the USA for treatment. The multiple choice answers didn't include 0%, just "1% or less", which was the overwhelming answer because mostly the number is zero percent. From this the Fraser Institute extrapolated that 1% of all Canadians - 34,000 at the time, sought treatment in the USA. The real number, from US hospital reports, was around 12,000, and most of those people were in the USA for business or vacation when they took sick.

The USA has 45,000 people per year dying because they lack health insurance coverage. Extrapolate those numbers for 20 years and that's more than a million Americans who actually died since the turn of the century, because they had no health insurance.

1/3 of all American bankruptcies are due to medical debt. I don't know of anyone in Canada who went bankrupt from medical debt. They may have lost everything because of illness and an inability to work, but not because they had to pay tens of thousands of dollars to their doctors or hospitals.

But most telling is your life expectancy is DECLINING, and you're the ONLY nation in the first world where this is happening. You're fatter and more unhealthy than any first world nation and yet you twice as much health care than ANY of us.

RESULTS MATTER. You're certainly not getting anything close to your money's worth.

So the numbers are real and not inflated but you fail to mention that the numbers are less in the U.K. And even lower in the U.S. But that is not the only source of the numbers but the only one you wanted to pick out, but as I say free is better if you do not mind dying at a higher rate and using outdated technology.
As far as life expectancy yes it is declining because of fast and over processed foods that Americans are addicted to.
But hey free is better until it is not right? Of course it is until you realize you could have better

 

[Highlight]

I can see that you aren't just confused sexually.

I have many people on my ignore list. Keep that crap up and you will join them.

 

[Highlight]

No employer should be forced to pay their employees for not working. If the employee is worth their pay and benefits, the employer will pay them.

Oh, two idiots having a conversation. I think unemployment payments are a good thing. Next, no employer pays their employees what they're worth. That's what capitalism is all about. And "benefits?" What benefits! Most employers don't give their workers shit in that regard.

 

[Highlight]

This country was built on the concept of private property.

Suck on it.

Don't like it, get to be a billionaire and give your money away.

You could give everyone what you think they need and they'll be in poverty again within five years.

Moron. "Private property?" Stop paying taxes on it. You will find out who really owns it. So suck on that. Next, it isn't what I think they need. It is what they think they need. And here's an interesting point on that. Take a person who has always been poor and somebody who used to be a multi millionaire, but is now broke. If you asked both what it is they think they need, the person who used to be a multi millionaire would likely give you a wildly different answer than somebody who has always been poor would give you.

Next, your opinion of the poor could only be spoken by an asshole. Take myself. Being on Social Security, I am poor. There used to be a time that if I was especially frugal, I could stash away $100 dollars each month for a rainy day. Now, I can't make it from month to month. So, what is it that I would say I need? Enough to be able to get some junker car and pay for the drivers license, plates and the monthly insurance payments. As well as stashing away $100 a month on top of that. If I had those things, in 5 years, (if I live that long) I still wouldn't be back to poverty. But with Trump and his tariffs, that will likely change. Along with being without the things I said I need.

 

[Highlight]

If you think Don is any worse than Kamala or Genocide Joe, you’re dreaming.

Oh, so you think Trump's "big beautiful bill" is a good thing? Cutting Medicaid and food stamps? No democrat supports it. And what about trump saying there is no such thing as human caused global warming? Or what about his cutting funding and firing people from the CDC, EPA, Department of Education, etc. etc. etc. No democrat would have done those things. Another thing is Trump cutting funding to the National Parks. Which is insane because they made far more money than what the government was giving them to begin with.

You know, for a time from some of the replies you have given, I thought you weren't a Trump supporter. You really had me going for a time there. I thought we could have been friends on this forum. Congratulations, you have shamed me.

 

[Unkotare]

... No democrat supports it. ...

No stronger argument FOR it.

 

[Highlight]

Get a job!

Timeless advice never gets old.

I love your avatar. Too bad you have to be an asshole. I am on Social Security. Back in the mid 80's when I needed one, there were none to be had. That aside, what if I got a job today. What would I get for pay? SHIT! For example, say I got a job at McDonalds here. Compare that to what I would get if I got a job at McDonalds in Denmark. Starting pay at McDonalds there is $20.00 dollars per hour. They also receive a pension plan, 6 weeks of paid vacation and paid maternity leave for the women. Along with other benefits that come from their socialist system. So your advice isn't timeless. It is senseless.

 

[westwall]

The problem with American social spending is that so much of it goes to administration. Everything is "means tested", and there is an overemphasis on "fraud prevention". One program which was proposed in Canada was to be means tested, and they discovered if was going to cost MORE to complete the means testing than the benefits the program provided.

One way to cut costs to eliminate SNAP benefits and just increase the minimum wage as well as welfare and/or disability payments to cover this amount. Between the means testing, and the cost of sending out the money, you could increase benefits while cutting the overall cost and shrinking government.

Wash, rinse and repeat for "earned income credits". Increasing the minimum wage would eliminate most of this program, and reduce the size of government. Like food stamps, this is a "made in America" program which is just a big subsidy for some of the most profitable corporations in America. PAY PEOPLE REASONABLE WAGES.

Another way of cutting costs, is to upgrade government computer systems. The Social Security system is a prime example. The system is a patchwork of computer systems going back to the dawn of the computer age. In the 1990's, the Province of New Brunswick cut $300 million dollars from the annual provincial budget, without cutting a dime of services, just by upgrading and modernizing their systems.

NB had a population of 938,000 people, at the time, which gives you an idea of the return on investment. It was dubbed "McKenna's Miracle", Frank McKenna being the Premier at the time. A good friend of mine was the Head Consultant from KPMG Management Consultants who is the real "Miracle" here. I was initially hoping that DOGE would be doing something similar when they first went it, because the potential certainly exists.

Then there are work requirements. Our church decided to participate in a "workfare" program in the 1990's, and have the workers paint the recreation hall at our church, instead of getting volunteers to do it. We had to pay someone to supervise them and fill out the paperwork. It would have cost us nothing but the price of the paint to have the volunteers do it. The program was an abject failure. Employers cited the costs of supervision and paperwork, and it cancelled soon after.

That's true of every socialist government as well.

Government is wasteful.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Next, no employer pays their employees what they're worth. That's what capitalism is all about.

What they're worth is all the value they add?

Because the employer shouldn't get any?

 

[gipper]

Oh, so you think Trump's "big beautiful bill" is a good thing? Cutting Medicaid and food stamps? No democrat supports it. And what about trump saying there is no such thing as human caused global warming? Or what about his cutting funding and firing people from the CDC, EPA, Department of Education, etc. etc. etc. No democrat would have done those things. Another thing is Trump cutting funding to the National Parks. Which is insane because they made far more money than what the government was giving them to begin with.

You know, for a time from some of the replies you have given, I thought you weren't a Trump supporter. You really had me going for a time there. I thought we could have been friends on this forum. Congratulations, you have shamed me.

I think Trump is an elitist corporatist warmonger Zionist. Exactly like Genocide Joe and Kooky Kamala and most of our ruling class.

If you think one must support the criminal D party to oppose Trump, you’re stuck in the uniparty matrix.

I oppose both parties and I oppose our criminal government.