End of the Two-State Solution

[P F Tinmore]

See, that wasn't so hard after all, was it? I knew you could.

But you're joking, right? The "plan" calls for Hamas to disavow violence. The same Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel, ergo they will never renounce violence.
So in two sentences I have eviscerated your "plan." Talk about not based in reality.

In reality, every plan so far tried has been a wretched failure. They have tried bilateral talks. Those failed. They have tried having the U.S. negotiate. That failed. They have tried having the Europeans negotiate. That failed. They have tried having the Russians negotiate. That failed. Israel tried giving the west bank back to Jordan. That failed. They have tried setting up a "starter state" in the PA. That failed when the Palis voted in Hamas who then machine gunned their opposition in the streets.
We have over 30 years of failed attempts to resolve this. There are no good solutions, only ones that might work.
And the only solution that might work is relocating the Palestinians elsewhere.

This reminds me of the guy who drank gin and tonic and got a hangover. Then he drank vodka and tonic and got a hangover. Then he drank whiskey and tonic and got a hangover. He conclude that it was the tonic that was giving him the hangover.

All of these so called peace negotiations have the same basic flaw that keeps them from being successful. Time after time they throw in the same clunkers that ensure failure.

Yeah. That continued existence of Israel is a deal killer every time.

Pretty much. The Palestinians have to agree that Israel had the right to steal their land and give them the boot. That is a tough sell.

 

[GHook93]

This reminds me of the guy who drank gin and tonic and got a hangover. Then he drank vodka and tonic and got a hangover. Then he drank whiskey and tonic and got a hangover. He conclude that it was the tonic that was giving him the hangover.

All of these so called peace negotiations have the same basic flaw that keeps them from being successful. Time after time they throw in the same clunkers that ensure failure.

Yeah. That continued existence of Israel is a deal killer every time.

Pretty much. The Palestinians have to agree that Israel had the right to steal their land and give them the boot. That is a tough sell.

It is amusing how the worst antisemites, the ones that call for the death and destruction of Israel and the murder of another 6 mil Jews, are always the ones that cry the loudest when Israel fights back against annihilation!

P F, so your solution is just like Rabbi's? You believe the Palestinians will never give in, so the Israeli just have to expel them to territories! You anti-Palestine!

 

[P F Tinmore]

Yeah. That continued existence of Israel is a deal killer every time.

Pretty much. The Palestinians have to agree that Israel had the right to steal their land and give them the boot. That is a tough sell.

It is amusing how the worst antisemites, the ones that call for the death and destruction of Israel and the murder of another 6 mil Jews, are always the ones that cry the loudest when Israel fights back against annihilation!

P F, so your solution is just like Rabbi's? You believe the Palestinians will never give in, so the Israeli just have to expel them to territories! You anti-Palestine!

You act as if what I said was not true.

 

[Coyote]

See, that wasn't so hard after all, was it? I knew you could.

But you're joking, right? The "plan" calls for Hamas to disavow violence. The same Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel, ergo they will never renounce violence.
So in two sentences I have eviscerated your "plan." Talk about not based in reality.

You've eviscerated nothing. In two sentences you've managed to not only ignore 9/10's of that particular plan to focus on only one point like a child fixated on a candy bar in the check out aisle. In fact maybe you didn't even read it. That seems likely since you're not able to discuss it in much depth.

No plan is perfect. Any plan that is even remotely workable requires considerable give and take from either side something you don't seem to comprehend. Any plan will likely be realized in small increments not sweeping changes. That's a reality.

In reality, every plan so far tried has been a wretched failure. They have tried bilateral talks. Those failed. They have tried having the U.S. negotiate. That failed. They have tried having the Europeans negotiate. That failed. They have tried having the Russians negotiate. That failed. Israel tried giving the west bank back to Jordan. That failed. They have tried setting up a "starter state" in the PA. That failed when the Palis voted in Hamas who then machine gunned their opposition in the streets.
We have over 30 years of failed attempts to resolve this. There are no good solutions, only ones that might work.

True. Might being the opporative word. In the end, though, it will also come down to a point where both sides are sick of the status quo and are finally willing to make some serious concessions. Israel made concessions and then, dishonered some of them. The Palestinians made some promises and then broke some of them. Neither side has any reason to trust the other. Tinmoore posted some interesting articles (which you also conveniently ignored) about Hamas. Personally, I think any solution will have to come from within - Israel, Palestinians, the other Arab countries and I still think the plan GHook posted has the best ideas.

And the only solution that might work is relocating the Palestinians elsewhere.

Talk about shooting fish in the barrel - your idea is so full of impossibilities next to most other plans it's just plain stupid.

I'll just present some of the questions:
Where are you going to locate some 3,837,957 people?
Where is the infrastructure and economic means to support that many refugees?
Who pays for the relocation?
Who pays for the necessary infrastructure?
Who is willing to take them? You so export them to Jordan. Jordan isn't going to take them.

Then there is the humanitarian angle. Jordan isn't their homeland. Most came from what is now Israel. A small number migrated from Arab countries. Why should Jordan be expected to absorb them?

If you feel this is a "good idea" then, surely the idea to send all the immigrant Jews back to their countries of origin is also a good idea? You've got something like 5,634,300 Jews of which a certain portion are native and the others immigrants or descendents of immigrants. At least you'll be spreading the population around a bunch of different countries that could better absorb them right? So why don't you argue for this idea?

I'll tell you why. It's retarded. Just like your idea is.

 

[The Rabbi]

The other 9/10ths were every bit as stupid as unworkable as the one I picked out. No need to go there.

So you admit the plan is a bust. It is unworkable.

Since 1993 the PA has gotten well over $3.5B in aid. That's what, $10M per person you just cited? Can you not relocate a person for $10M? What country would not be happy to have a new immigrant show up with $10M to spend on the local economy?
And where did that money go, as a side question? It went to the corrupt PA, to keep Suha Arafat in Paris living like a queen, to keep funding terror and suicide bombers.

As far as relocating the Jews, remember who won.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The other 9/10ths were every bit as stupid as unworkable as the one I picked out. No need to go there.

So you admit the plan is a bust. It is unworkable.

Since 1993 the PA has gotten well over $3.5B in aid. That's what, $10M per person you just cited? Can you not relocate a person for $10M? What country would not be happy to have a new immigrant show up with $10M to spend on the local economy?
And where did that money go, as a side question? It went to the corrupt PA, to keep Suha Arafat in Paris living like a queen, to keep funding terror and suicide bombers.

As far as relocating the Jews, remember who won.

Israel won the war. Now all it has to do is to get Palestine to surrender. Something that has not happened in the last 60 some years.

 

[GHook93]

Note: This is not Stating Expelling the Palestinians is a good idea! Because I am firmly against that!

Talk about shooting fish in the barrel - your idea is so full of impossibilities next to most other plans it's just plain stupid.

Difficult? Yes; Immoral? Probably, but Impossible? Nope. It has happened many times throughout history, there is no reason it can't happen again. I am not advocating this, because he seems I don't want to see the world turned upside down it it happens.

I'll just present some of the questions:
Where are you going to locate some 3,837,957 people?

Speaking from a logistic perspective and not moral perspective, but the West Bank Palestinians could be forced into Syria, Lebanon and Jordan. This would obviously require another large scale '67 style war.

The Gaza residents would be pushed into Egypt. This would require Israel and Egypt reverting back to pre-'79 hostilities. Not to mention a '67 like victory, which Egypt is well stocked with US weapons, not Soviet crap.

But this is talking about the current situation now, where the Arabs/Muslims yield massive power via the strangle hold Black Crack has on the world, esp the West. Mark my words over the next decade we will be wielding ourselves off the black crack pipe and Saudi Arabia, Libya, UAE, Yemen, Bahrain, Iraq, Tunsia, Iran, Kuwait, Qatar, Sudan (so-what Egypt) will get hit with an economic nuclear bomb. They also won't be used to the West not placating them because of fear of oil embargos. The situation on the ground would be much different. Arab countries are some of the least dense in the world, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Oman, Yemen, Morocco, Afghanistan etc. You never know what a billionaire will do to even be a millioniare when they fall to the barrel level. Things can change and countries like Saudi Arabia could take them for if international aid was promised. The assimilation wouldn't be tough: same religion (Sunni Islam), same dissent (Arab), same language (Arabic), same clothing style, same culture etc. Ditto for all the aforementioned countries.

Where is the infrastructure and economic means to support that many refugees?
Who pays for the relocation?
Who pays for the necessary infrastructure?

Don't be naive, you know!

Who is willing to take them? You so export them to Jordan. Jordan isn't going to take them.

Explained above

Then there is the humanitarian angle. Jordan isn't their homeland. Most came from what is now Israel. A small number migrated from Arab countries. Why should Jordan be expected to absorb them?

You speak out of your butt on that one. People think that only the Jews immigrated to Israel/Palestine in the 1800s. During the Turk rule, population of Palestine was tiny.
During the 1800s the Jews started to immigrate, however, so did the Arabs. During the White Paper British rule, Arab immigration was unrestricted and many immigrated. It is beyond ignorant to say all the Palestinians go back to the Arab Crusade and Conquest time (as it would be to say some families where around before the 1800s)

If you feel this is a "good idea" then, surely the idea to send all the immigrant Jews back to their countries of origin is also a good idea? You've got something like 5,634,300 Jews of which a certain portion are native and the others immigrants or descendents of immigrants. At least you'll be spreading the population around a bunch of different countries that could better absorb them right? So why don't you argue for this idea?

Not an apples to apples comparison. Jews have be overpersecuted in all of these countries and would make up less than 1%. There power as a group would not be protect. They don't share the same religion, language or culture.

Take just Jordan for instance. They are 60% Palestinian. They make up the majority. Mark my worlds when the Jordanians like it or not, it will eventually become part of any final Palestinian state.

I'll tell you why. It's retarded. Just like your idea is.

Pot calling the kettle black

 

[P F Tinmore]

The part I don't understand how people whose families date back hundreds or thousands of years, albeit under different names and different flags over city hall, can be said to go back to anywhere?

 

[The Rabbi]

The part I don't understand how people whose families date back hundreds or thousands of years, albeit under different names and different flags over city hall, can be said to go back to anywhere?

Because they don't. But you don't understand that part.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The part I don't understand how people whose families date back hundreds or thousands of years, albeit under different names and different flags over city hall, can be said to go back to anywhere?

Because they don't. But you don't understand that part.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/israel-and-palestine/99192-palestinian-people.html

 

[The Rabbi]

A link to your own rantings isn't going to persuade anyone. Except that you're a crank. And no one needs much persuading there.

 

[P F Tinmore]

A link to your own rantings isn't going to persuade anyone. Except that you're a crank. And no one needs much persuading there.

If you would read my posts, which you do not seem to do since your responses are usually unrelated to the information posted, you will find that this info is out of Israel.

 

[The Rabbi]

A link to your own rantings isn't going to persuade anyone. Except that you're a crank. And no one needs much persuading there.

If you would read my posts, which you do not seem to do since your responses are usually unrelated to the information posted, you will find that this info is out of Israel.

You're posting from Israel? I doubt it. Even they have standards.
Crank.

 

[Coyote]

Note: This is not Stating Expelling the Palestinians is a good idea! Because I am firmly against that!

Talk about shooting fish in the barrel - your idea is so full of impossibilities next to most other plans it's just plain stupid.

Difficult? Yes; Immoral? Probably, but Impossible? Nope. It has happened many times throughout history, there is no reason it can't happen again. I am not advocating this, because he seems I don't want to see the world turned upside down it it happens.

I'll just present some of the questions:
Where are you going to locate some 3,837,957 people?

Speaking from a logistic perspective and not moral perspective, but the West Bank Palestinians could be forced into Syria, Lebanon and Jordan. This would obviously require another large scale '67 style war.

The Gaza residents would be pushed into Egypt. This would require Israel and Egypt reverting back to pre-'79 hostilities. Not to mention a '67 like victory, which Egypt is well stocked with US weapons, not Soviet crap.

But this is talking about the current situation now, where the Arabs/Muslims yield massive power via the strangle hold Black Crack has on the world, esp the West. Mark my words over the next decade we will be wielding ourselves off the black crack pipe and Saudi Arabia, Libya, UAE, Yemen, Bahrain, Iraq, Tunsia, Iran, Kuwait, Qatar, Sudan (so-what Egypt) will get hit with an economic nuclear bomb. They also won't be used to the West not placating them because of fear of oil embargos. The situation on the ground would be much different. Arab countries are some of the least dense in the world, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Oman, Yemen, Morocco, Afghanistan etc. You never know what a billionaire will do to even be a millioniare when they fall to the barrel level. Things can change and countries like Saudi Arabia could take them for if international aid was promised. The assimilation wouldn't be tough: same religion (Sunni Islam), same dissent (Arab), same language (Arabic), same clothing style, same culture etc. Ditto for all the aforementioned countries.

Basically - as a solution, it might be "possible" but highly improbable and would likely create a far worse situation and instability than that that which is it is purported to solve...and, as you said it is not a "good idea"....

Same culture? You mean like France and Italy and Germany all have the same cultures?

You speak out of your butt on that one. People think that only the Jews immigrated to Israel/Palestine in the 1800s. During the Turk rule, population of Palestine was tiny.
During the 1800s the Jews started to immigrate, however, so did the Arabs. During the White Paper British rule, Arab immigration was unrestricted and many immigrated. It is beyond ignorant to say all the Palestinians go back to the Arab Crusade and Conquest time (as it would be to say some families where around before the 1800s)

Um, no...it is not I who has the problem with verbal flatulance here. I never made the claim that "all Palestinians go back to yada yada yada. However, it has long been in Israel's best interest to promote the myth that the land was only sparsly populated and most of the Palestinians are immigrant populations. That is not true. In fact - it is difficult to get accurate numbers, and over such a long period of time basically means it would be as ignorant to talk about moving all the Palestinina population to other countries as it would to move the Jewish population.

If you feel this is a "good idea" then, surely the idea to send all the immigrant Jews back to their countries of origin is also a good idea? You've got something like 5,634,300 Jews of which a certain portion are native and the others immigrants or descendents of immigrants. At least you'll be spreading the population around a bunch of different countries that could better absorb them right? So why don't you argue for this idea?

Not an apples to apples comparison. Jews have be overpersecuted in all of these countries and would make up less than 1%. There power as a group would not be protect. They don't share the same religion, language or culture.

Jews have been persecuted in the past, that is true. Is that the situation now by and large? In some places yes, in other places there are considerable protections in place. In addition. weren't you the one (or was it Rabbi) complaining how horribly the Palestinians are treated in other countries?

Shifting them all to other countries would be just as inhumane and ludicrous as shifting Jews to various European countries. A non-solution. The Palestinians are there to stay. Israel is there to stay. That's called "facts on the ground".

Take just Jordan for instance. They are 60% Palestinian. They make up the majority. Mark my worlds when the Jordanians like it or not, it will eventually become part of any final Palestinian state.

Where do you get 60% Palestinian from?

According to the CIA Fact Book Jordan is a small Arab country with insufficient supplies of water, oil, and other natural resources. Poverty, unemployment, and inflation are fundamental problems. So you propose somehow forcing them to take an additional 3-4 million people most of whom didn't originate there? That's a bit insane.

Why not simplify the solution - have Israel give the West Bank back to Jordan along with it's population?

I'll tell you why. It's retarded. Just like your idea is.

Pot calling the kettle black

Well DUH - didn't I just say that BOTH ideas are retarded?

 

[The Rabbi]

Where do you get 60% Palestinian from?

According to the CIA Fact Book Jordan is a small Arab country with insufficient supplies of water, oil, and other natural resources. Poverty, unemployment, and inflation are fundamental problems. So you propose somehow forcing them to take an additional 3-4 million people most of whom didn't originate there? That's a bit insane.

Why not simplify the solution - have Israel give the West Bank back to Jordan along with it's population?

Jordan is 60% Palestinian.
Israel already tried to give the west bank back. The Jordanians didnt want it. Guess why? They don't want Palestinians in their country either (there was the black sept thing, remember). Neither does Kuwait. Or Saudi Arabia.
Why do you suppose that is?

 

[Coyote]

Where do you get 60% Palestinian from?

According to the CIA Fact Book Jordan is a small Arab country with insufficient supplies of water, oil, and other natural resources. Poverty, unemployment, and inflation are fundamental problems. So you propose somehow forcing them to take an additional 3-4 million people most of whom didn't originate there? That's a bit insane.

Why not simplify the solution - have Israel give the West Bank back to Jordan along with it's population?

Jordan is 60% Palestinian.

According to what? Where did that figure come from?

Israel already tried to give the west bank back. The Jordanians didnt want it. Guess why? They don't want Palestinians in their country either (there was the black sept thing, remember). Neither does Kuwait. Or Saudi Arabia.
Why do you suppose that is?

Sounds like your population export idea is dead on the water then.

 

[GHook93]

Same culture? You mean like France and Italy and Germany all have the same cultures?

Come on don't be stupid. There is an Arab Middle Eastern culture. French, Italians and Germans don't even share the same language!

Um, no...it is not I who has the problem with verbal flatulance here. I never made the claim that "all Palestinians go back to yada yada yada. However, it has long been in Israel's best interest to promote the myth that the land was only sparsly populated and most of the Palestinians are immigrant populations. That is not true. In fact - it is difficult to get accurate numbers, and over such a long period of time basically means it would be as ignorant to talk about moving all the Palestinina population to other countries as it would to move the Jewish population.

BS, the Turks didn't allow record keeping, so there are no records! The best estimation of the sparse population comes from one personal point of view. One single honest well respect traveler. Mark Twain - Kreplach: MARK TWAIN ON PALESTINE IN 1867. Not to mention logic on the ground. During the 1800s Palestine/Israel was a not built up. There were no large cities other than Jerusalem (which yes during the 1800s had a Jewish majority even in Eastern Jerusalem). There were no great farms or infrastructure. But you can go on believing that all the Palestinians of today were around since the Arab Crusades. Rather than the logical conclusions that many started to immigrated during the larger half of the 19th century and it spiked during the White Paper Days.

Jews have been persecuted in the past, that is true. Is that the situation now by and large? In some places yes, in other places there are considerable protections in place. In addition. weren't you the one (or was it Rabbi) complaining how horribly the Palestinians are treated in other countries?

There is only 2 countries in the world Jews actually feel safe - America (the best country the world has ever seen) and Israel. PERIOD!

I complainted the Palestinians have not been treated too great by there brotheren. The refugee status starters, ask Palestinians they are not treated well in any country they go to in the middle east and Jordan killed more far more Palestinian in one month in the 1970s (20,000) than the Jews have killed in 61 years.

But then again I support a free independent Palestinian state!

Shifting them all to other countries would be just as inhumane and ludicrous as shifting Jews to various European countries. A non-solution. The Palestinians are there to stay. Israel is there to stay. That's called "facts on the ground".

That is why if you haven't noticed I tossed in the word "immoral" more than once.

Why not simplify the solution - have Israel give the West Bank back to Jordan along with it's population?

You do know that during the camp david accords. First, all of Gaza and 95% of West Bank. Not good enough. So the JEWS tossed in East Jerusalem INCLUDING the Temple Mount. Now up to 98% with East Jerusalem as their capital.

What was the response! A large and extensive terrorist campaign. Sorry but the Jews bent over backwards on that deal. 98% and East Jerusalem! Give me a break if you think the Jews were wrong there. Of course Shogun and PT would, because they are grand antisemites. Anything less that every Jews in the world (not just in Israeli) agreeing to kill themselves is less than they would except.

The I/P conflict should have been ended, but the PALESTINIANS prolonged it!

 

[Marc39]

The part I don't understand how people whose families date back hundreds or thousands of years, albeit under different names and different flags over city hall, can be said to go back to anywhere?

Because they don't. But you don't understand that part.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/israel-and-palestine/99192-palestinian-people.html

There is no ethnic group known as Palestinians. Indeed, there is not one legitimate book of history on the Palestinians. Because, they are a hoax.

 

[RadiomanATL]

Because they don't. But you don't understand that part.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/israel-and-palestine/99192-palestinian-people.html

There is no ethnic group known as Palestinians. Indeed, there is not one legitimate book of history on the Palestinians. Because, they are a hoax.

By far the most disingenuous and dumbest argument against a Palestinian state.

There are much better ones. Put this one to rest.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Because they don't. But you don't understand that part.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/israel-and-palestine/99192-palestinian-people.html

There is no ethnic group known as Palestinians. Indeed, there is not one legitimate book of history on the Palestinians. Because, they are a hoax.

There is no ethnic group known as Americans either. Is there a point here?