Election Reform and the Spoiler Effect

dblack

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Lurking at the heart of our extreme political dysfunction is a fundamentally flawed election process. The way we currently vote, everyone picks their favorite candidate, and whoever gets the most votes wins. This is called "plurality voting". Sometimes referred to as "first past the post" voting.

It sounds reasonable enough, and if there are only two candidates running it kind of works. But it breaks down when there are more than two candidates. It creates a situation where a candidate can win, even though a majority of the voters don't like them. This problem is called the "spoiler effect". And it happens fairly often.

One good example is the 1992 US Presidential Election. In that election there were three high-profile candidates. Bush Sr., Bill Clinton and Ross Perot. Conservative votes were split between Bush Sr.(37.4%) and Perot(18.9%). Bill Clinton won the election with only 43% of the vote - even though the majority of voters would have preferred a conservative President.

It happened again in 2000 when the liberal vote was split between Gore and Nader. Most Nader voters would have chosen Gore over Bush - Gore would have likely won if not for Nader being in the race.

The problem with the spoiler effect is broader than just electing the wrong candidate. To win, the major parties must discourage any like minded candidates from running in the same race. That's why the two major parties viciously attack third party candidates, even when they mostly agree with them - especially when they mostly agree with them. They actually encourage third party candidates that they disagree with, because that will split the vote of the other side. It's a backassward mess that causes a lot of unnecessary acrimony.

One way around the spoiler effect is requiring the winner to have at least 50% of the vote. Some states have implemented this (eg Georgia). The idea is that if no candidate gets more than 50% of the vote in the election, the "spoilers" are eliminated from the ballot, and everyone votes again in a runoff election. With only two candidates left, it's a certainty that one of them will get 50% of the vote.

But these runoff elections are expensive, time consuming (we might not know the results for weeks or months) and suffer from "voter fatigue" - the turnout for the runoffs is generally much lower than the initial vote. They also exclude third or fourth place vote-getters, who might have actually been the consensus winner if they'd eliminated the "spoilers" one at a time, instead of all at once.

So runoffs neutralize the spoiler effect, but most states have decided they aren't affordable and not worth the extra trouble.

This is the problem that vote-ranking systems solve. Instant Runoff Voting (IRV) or Ranked Choice Voting(RCV), lets voters rank the candidates in order of their preference. Essentially, the are casting their votes in potential runoff elections when they first go to the polls. You can, for example, say "Nader is my favorite, but if he's not close, I'd rather have Gore than Bush. Or "Perot is my favorite, but if he doesn't get a majority, I'd rather my vote go to Bush than Clinton".

It's a subtle change, but it has some really nice benefits. First of all, the major parties no longer have incentive to attack third party candidates. Instead of alienating third party voters, the major parties will have incentive to make an honest appeal to them. It also does away with the lesser of two evils conceit. I you really think Harris and Trump both suck, you can give your first place vote to a candidate you do like, yet still have some say if, in the end, Harris and Trump are the only two left.

This kind of reform is happening all over the country - mostly at the grass roots, local level. People recognize the improvement and like having a more expressive vote. But the two entrenched parties have taken note, and are fighting it vigorously. Turns out they kind of like seeing us limited to two choices (as long as they are one of the choices). They claim that the ballot is too complicated and that voters are too stupid to rank the candidates. Or they suggest it's a plot by the other side to trick voters! They site case studies where their candidate didn't win - which of course means the system is bad. :rolleyes: All of their complaints, that I've heard, fall apart on examination. Most of them don't even make sense because they don't understand how RCV works. They just know it will get rid of the lesser-of-two-evils fearmongering - and that's all they know.
 
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okay, several flaws with your argument, the first being that Perot made it impossible for Bush to win. Clinton was leading Bush during the period where Perot had withdrawn from the race, and most exit polling showed that his voters would have split between Clinton and Bush evenly. What made that more complicated was that because we have the asinine stupidity that is the Electoral College, Clinton did end up winning states he had no business winning, like GA and MT.

It happened again in 2000 when the liberal vote was split between Gore and Nader. Most Nader voters would have chosen Gore over Bush - Gore would have likely won if not for Nader being in the race.

Gore would have won if Jeb hadn't stolen the election, but that's an entirely different discussion. The problem with the Ranked Choice voting is that is assumes that the kind of mutant that votes third party would want to make a second choice.

This kind of reform is happening all over the country - mostly at the grass roots, local level. People recognize the improvement and like having a more expressive vote. But the two entrenched parties have taken note, and are fighting it vigorously. Turns out they kind of like seeing us limited to two choices (as long as they are one of the choices). They claim that the ballot is too complicated and that voters are too stupid to rank the candidates. Or they suggest it's a plot by the other side to trick voters! They site case studies where their candidate didn't win - which of course means the system is bad. :rolleyes: All of their complaints, that I've heard, fall apart on examination. Most of them don't even make sense because they don't understand how RCV works. They just know it will get rid of the lesser-of-two-evils fearmongering - and that's all they know.

Except we've already seen the kind of clusterfuck that RCV can be in NYC's Democratic primary. It wasn't an issue of partisanship because everyone was running as a Democrat. Eric Adams talked out of both sides of his mouth on police reform, and got 30% of the vote. But it took 8 rounds of ballot eliminating to get him over 50%, and even then, so many people were confused by the process that most of them didn't bother. (Of 10 million in NYC, only 800K or so cast ballots in the primary.)

Another example of what a cluster it can be is the 2022 AK election. The GOP split it's vote between Sarah Palin and Nick Begich, but enough of Begich's voters picked the Democrat as their second choice that Palin was eliminated. I am betting that probably wasn't the outcome they were expecting.

This year, Peltola and Begich are going at it again, but the GOP Lt. Governor withdrew from the race to keep it from turning into another clusterfuck like they had in 2022.

And sorry, I use the term "Clusterfuck" a lot here, because that is the only way to describe it.

A better system would be to have runoff elections of the top two vote-getters because then they can concentrate their messages on each other and have a much more focused race.
 
okay, several flaws with your argument, the first being that Perot made it impossible for Bush to win. Clinton was leading Bush during the period where Perot had withdrawn from the race, and most exit polling showed that his voters would have split between Clinton and Bush evenly. What made that more complicated was that because we have the asinine stupidity that is the Electoral College, Clinton did end up winning states he had no business winning, like GA and MT.

Gore would have won if Jeb hadn't stolen the election, but that's an entirely different discussion.
Are you saying that Nader had no impact on the election? Seriously? Gore lost by razor thing margin. Even two thirds of Nader's votes would have easily pushed him over.

I realize you want to miss the point here - or, rather, steer around it. But the spoiler effect and lesser of two evils voting are real dysfunctions of our current setup. Are you denying that?
What made that more complicated was that because we have the asinine stupidity that is the Electoral College ...
The electoral college is a completely separate issue from fixing the spoiler effect.
The problem with the Ranked Choice voting is that is assumes that the kind of mutant that votes third party would want to make a second choice.
Weak slur attempts notwithstanding, voters aren't as stupid as you pretend. They can handle ranking candidates.
Except we've already seen the kind of clusterfuck that RCV can be in NYC's Democratic primary.
Ranked choice voting won't prevent poorly ran elections. It won't prevent voters from electing bad candidates. But it does away with the spoiler effect and the tiresome lesser-of-two-evils plea. And it discourages divisive fear mongering.
Another example of what a cluster it can be is the 2022 AK election. The GOP split it's vote between Sarah Palin and Nick Begich, but enough of Begich's voters picked the Democrat as their second choice that Palin was eliminated. I am betting that probably wasn't the outcome they were expecting.
That's been debunked six ways to Sunday. I won't bother here, but you can read this: In Alaska, ranked choice voting worked
And sorry, I use the term "Clusterfuck" a lot here, because that is the only way to describe it.
Especially if you want to dismiss it for political reasons.
A better system would be to have runoff elections of the top two vote-getters because then they can concentrate their messages on each other and have a much more focused race.
We went over this crap in the other thread. Your argument basically boils down to restating your premise: voters are better off if they only have two choices. Imagine that, the two parties are recommending we only consider two candidates. Shocker.

That said, I like runoff elections too. They're not as good as RCV because they jump right to only two candidates (which is, of course, what the two parties want), though they do at least give voters one chance to vote for the candidates they actually like. But I don't see the two entrenched parties lobbying for runoff elections either.
 
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Are you saying that Nader had no impact on the election? Seriously? Gore lost by razor thing margin. Even two thirds of Nader's votes would have easily pushed him over.

I realize you want to miss the point here - or, rather, steer around it. But the spoiler effect and lesser of two evils voting are real dysfunctions of our current setup. Are you denying that?

I'm saying that if Jeb hadn't cheated in Florida, Gore would have won as he should have. Nader was irrelevant.

Your first problem is assuming that if Nader wasn't there, his voters would have gone to Gore. Nope. Most of them wouldn't have voted at all.

Your second problem is thinking a third party is a lesser evil. Let's look at all the third parties of the last 100 years (Not counting the Bull Moose Party of TR)

YOu have a collection of racists, communists, and nutbags who couldn't get a foothold in one of the two main parties because they were so nuts.

I can't name a single third-party candidate who would have made a better president than the two guys who did run, and neither can you.

The electoral college is a completely separate issue from fixing the spoiler effect.

Nope, it probably does more to perpetuate the duopoly than anything else.

Weak slur attempts notwithstanding, voters aren't as stupid as you pretend. They can handle ranking candidates.

Oh, voters are fantastically stupid. The career of Donald Trump proves that.

Ranked choice voting won't prevent poorly ran elections. It won't prevent voters from electing bad candidates. But it does away with the spoiler effect and the tiresome lesser-of-two-evils plea. And it discourages divisive fear mongering.

It does none of that. At the end, you still have to pick your "Lesser of two evils" as your second choice.


That's been debunked six ways to Sunday. I won't bother here, but you can read this:

Why bother? Here's how we know that the RCV was a clusterfuck. Both parties have taken steps to make sure it doesn't happen again. And, yes, even though the Clusterfuck benefited my party, I would still call it a clusterfuck.

There wasn't even much of an ideological divide between Begich and Palin. It was all about personalities. If anything, Palin probably would have been a better choice because she has the star power to get noticed.

Especially if you want to dismiss it for political reasons.

Or just pointing out that the places it's been used, have not have good effects. So you have NYC, which ended up putting in a Mayor who is now under investigation for corruption, and a Congresscritter in Alaska who doesn't really represent the vast majority of people who live there.

We went over this crap in the other thread. Your argument basically boils down to restating your premise: voters are better off if they only have two choices. Imagine that, the two parties are recommending we only consider two candidates. Shocker.

Actually, the best argument against third-party candidates is third-party Candidates.

Let's look at the recent history of these "Spoilers", as you say.

2016- Gary Johnson, who promised not to smoke Dope around the nukes, and Jill Stein, who was on the Russian Payroll
2000 - Commie Ralph Nader and Nazi Pat Buchanan.
1992 and 1996 - Ross Perot. The first billionaire with more money than sense in infecting our system.
1980 - John Anderson. I don't represent my own party, so I'll start my own. (he was the last gasp of liberal Republicans)
1968 - George Wallace. Openly racist. The last Gasp of Conservative Democrats.
1948 - Strom Thurmond (racist) and Henry Wallace (Communist.)

The thing you don't get about American political parties is that there are more coalitions than parties. A coalition group might feel they are no longer represented, so they'll switch sides.

That said, I like runoff elections too. They're not as good as RCV because they jump right to only two candidates (which is, of course, what the two parties want), though they do at least give voters one chance to vote for the candidates they actually like. But I don't see the two entrenched parties lobbying for runoff elections either.

Actually, they are better, especially in areas where one party or the other doesn't have strong roots.

The reason we have runoffs in Chicago is that we did have partisan elections up until 1995, even though the Republican Party hadn't elected a mayor since 1927. The GOP ceased to be a factor in Chicago after Bernie Epton became the go-to for all the racists who freaked out when Harold Washington won the Democratic primary in 1983. After that, non-Democrats called themselves anything EXCEPT Republicans.
 
I'm saying that if Jeb hadn't cheated in Florida, Gore would have won as he should have. Nader was irrelevant.

Your first problem is assuming that if Nader wasn't there, his voters would have gone to Gore. Nope. Most of them wouldn't have voted at all.

Your second problem is thinking a third party is a lesser evil. Let's look at all the third parties of the last 100 years (Not counting the Bull Moose Party of TR)

YOu have a collection of racists, communists, and nutbags who couldn't get a foothold in one of the two main parties because they were so nuts.

I can't name a single third-party candidate who would have made a better president than the two guys who did run, and neither can you.
I realize you want to miss the point here - or, rather, steer around it. But the spoiler effect and lesser of two evils voting are real dysfunctions of our current setup. Are you denying that?
Why bother? Here's how we know that the RCV was a clusterfuck. Both parties have taken steps to make sure it doesn't happen again.
LOL - duh? From their perspective, RCV is horrible. They can no longer rely on a captive audience. Of course they want to make sure it doesn't happen again.

The rest of your post is just you bitching about third parties, and has nothing to do with the topic.
 
I realize you want to miss the point here - or, rather, steer around it. But the spoiler effect and lesser of two evils voting are real dysfunctions of our current setup. Are you denying that?

Yup.

I reject, "lesser of two evils". I voted Republican from 1980 to 2008 and Democrat from 2012 to 2024. Rarely did I feel that I was voting for the "Lesser of Two evils". Most of the candidates I supported I was all in on.

LOL - duh? From their perspective, RCV is horrible. They can no longer rely on a captive audience. Of course they want to make sure it doesn't happen again.

From any perspective RCV is horrible. People have no idea what they are voting for and are horrified by the results.

Yes, Republicans are not going to screw themselves with RCV the way they did in 2022.

The rest of your post is just you bitching about third parties, and has nothing to do with the topic.

Pointing out that third parties haven't added anything to the conversation in 100 years is hardly "bitching".
 
Yup.

I reject, "lesser of two evils". I voted Republican from 1980 to 2008 and Democrat from 2012 to 2024. Rarely did I feel that I was voting for the "Lesser of Two evils". Most of the candidates I supported I was all in on.
Good for you. Most people say otherwise. Most people "hold their nose" and vote for one candidate just because they're afraid of the other.
 
Let me google that for you: https://www.google.com/search?q=survey+says+most+people+don't+like+either+candidate&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS801US801&oq=survey+says+most+people+don't+like+either+candidate&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCTE1MzI0ajBqN6gCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

But seriously, if you're going to deny that lesser-of-two-evils voting is a problem, or if you're going to try to pretend it's a good thing, we don't have much to talk about. We're living in different realities.
 
Let me google that for you: https://www.google.com/search?q=survey+says+most+people+don't+like+either+candidate&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS801US801&oq=survey+says+most+people+don't+like+either+candidate&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCTE1MzI0ajBqN6gCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

But seriously, if you're going to deny that lesser-of-two-evils voting is a problem, or if you're going to try to pretend it's a good thing, we don't have much to talk about. We're living in different realities.

Does any 1 of those actually say what you claimed ?
 
Lurking at the heart of our extreme political dysfunction is a fundamentally flawed election process. The way we currently vote, everyone picks their favorite candidate, and whoever gets the most votes wins. This is called "plurality voting". Sometimes referred to as "first past the post" voting.

It sounds reasonable enough, and if there are only two candidates running it kind of works. But it breaks down when there are more than two candidates. It creates a situation where a candidate can win, even though a majority of the voters don't like them. This problem is called the "spoiler effect". And it happens fairly often.

One good example is the 1992 US Presidential Election. In that election there were three high-profile candidates. Bush Sr., Bill Clinton and Ross Perot. Conservative votes were split between Bush Sr.(37.4%) and Perot(18.9%). Bill Clinton won the election with only 43% of the vote - even though the majority of voters would have preferred a conservative President.

It happened again in 2000 when the liberal vote was split between Gore and Nader. Most Nader voters would have chosen Gore over Bush - Gore would have likely won if not for Nader being in the race.

The problem with the spoiler effect is broader than just electing the wrong candidate. To win, the major parties must discourage any like minded candidates from running in the same race. That's why the two major parties viciously attack third party candidates, even when they mostly agree with them - especially when they mostly agree with them. They actually encourage third party candidates that they disagree with, because that will split the vote of the other side. It's a backassward mess that causes a lot of unnecessary acrimony.

One way around the spoiler effect is requiring the winner to have at least 50% of the vote. Some states have implemented this (eg Georgia). The idea is that if no candidate gets more than 50% of the vote in the election, the "spoilers" are eliminated from the ballot, and everyone votes again in a runoff election. With only two candidates left, it's a certainty that one of them will get 50% of the vote.

But these runoff elections are expensive, time consuming (we might not know the results for weeks or months) and suffer from "voter fatigue" - the turnout for the runoffs is generally much lower than the initial vote. They also exclude third or fourth place vote-getters, who might have actually been the consensus winner if they'd eliminated the "spoilers" one at a time, instead of all at once.

So runoffs neutralize the spoiler effect, but most states have decided they aren't affordable and not worth the extra trouble.

This is the problem that vote-ranking systems solve. Instant Runoff Voting (IRV) or Ranked Choice Voting(RCV), lets voters rank the candidates in order of their preference. Essentially, the are casting their votes in potential runoff elections when they first go to the polls. You can, for example, say "Nader is my favorite, but if he's not close, I'd rather have Gore than Bush. Or "Perot is my favorite, but if he doesn't get a majority, I'd rather my vote go to Bush than Clinton".

It's a subtle change, but it has some really nice benefits. First of all, the major parties no longer have incentive to attack third party candidates. Instead of alienating third party voters, the major parties will have incentive to make an honest appeal to them. It also does away with the lesser of two evils conceit. I you really think Harris and Trump both suck, you can give your first place vote to a candidate you do like, yet still have some say if, in the end, Harris and Trump are the only two left.

This kind of reform is happening all over the country - mostly at the grass roots, local level. People recognize the improvement and like having a more expressive vote. But the two entrenched parties have taken note, and are fighting it vigorously. Turns out they kind of like seeing us limited to two choices (as long as they are one of the choices). They claim that the ballot is too complicated and that voters are too stupid to rank the candidates. Or they suggest it's a plot by the other side to trick voters! They site case studies where their candidate didn't win - which of course means the system is bad. win All of their complaints, that I've heard, fall apart on examination. Most of them don't even make sense because they don't understand how RCV works. They just know it will get rid of the lesser-of-two-evils fearmongering - and that's all they know.
Fallacious reasoning: Mind reading.

Nobody can say for certain what any of those voters may or may not have done in the absence of those given candidates....They all could have stayed home for all you know.

Oh, and rigged choice voting is just a Rube Goldberg intended to keep the ruling class in place....Sucker.
 
Fallacious reasoning: Mind reading.

Nobody can say for certain what any of those voters may or may not have done in the absence of those given candidates....They all could have stayed home for all you know.

Oh, and rigged choice voting is just a Rube Goldberg intended to keep the ruling class in place....Sucker.
Thanks for the insightful comments.
 
RCV is back on the ballot in Alaska, there is a good chance they will scrap it even though the effort to keep it is spending 100-1 in the campaign.

It's effect has been to split the republican votes and hand the election to the democrats.
 
Lurking at the heart of our extreme political dysfunction is a fundamentally flawed election process. The way we currently vote, everyone picks their favorite candidate, and whoever gets the most votes wins. This is called "plurality voting". Sometimes referred to as "first past the post" voting.

It sounds reasonable enough, and if there are only two candidates running it kind of works. But it breaks down when there are more than two candidates. It creates a situation where a candidate can win, even though a majority of the voters don't like them. This problem is called the "spoiler effect". And it happens fairly often.

One good example is the 1992 US Presidential Election. In that election there were three high-profile candidates. Bush Sr., Bill Clinton and Ross Perot. Conservative votes were split between Bush Sr.(37.4%) and Perot(18.9%). Bill Clinton won the election with only 43% of the vote - even though the majority of voters would have preferred a conservative President.

It happened again in 2000 when the liberal vote was split between Gore and Nader. Most Nader voters would have chosen Gore over Bush - Gore would have likely won if not for Nader being in the race.

The problem with the spoiler effect is broader than just electing the wrong candidate. To win, the major parties must discourage any like minded candidates from running in the same race. That's why the two major parties viciously attack third party candidates, even when they mostly agree with them - especially when they mostly agree with them. They actually encourage third party candidates that they disagree with, because that will split the vote of the other side. It's a backassward mess that causes a lot of unnecessary acrimony.

One way around the spoiler effect is requiring the winner to have at least 50% of the vote. Some states have implemented this (eg Georgia). The idea is that if no candidate gets more than 50% of the vote in the election, the "spoilers" are eliminated from the ballot, and everyone votes again in a runoff election. With only two candidates left, it's a certainty that one of them will get 50% of the vote.

But these runoff elections are expensive, time consuming (we might not know the results for weeks or months) and suffer from "voter fatigue" - the turnout for the runoffs is generally much lower than the initial vote. They also exclude third or fourth place vote-getters, who might have actually been the consensus winner if they'd eliminated the "spoilers" one at a time, instead of all at once.

So runoffs neutralize the spoiler effect, but most states have decided they aren't affordable and not worth the extra trouble.

This is the problem that vote-ranking systems solve. Instant Runoff Voting (IRV) or Ranked Choice Voting(RCV), lets voters rank the candidates in order of their preference. Essentially, the are casting their votes in potential runoff elections when they first go to the polls. You can, for example, say "Nader is my favorite, but if he's not close, I'd rather have Gore than Bush. Or "Perot is my favorite, but if he doesn't get a majority, I'd rather my vote go to Bush than Clinton".

It's a subtle change, but it has some really nice benefits. First of all, the major parties no longer have incentive to attack third party candidates. Instead of alienating third party voters, the major parties will have incentive to make an honest appeal to them. It also does away with the lesser of two evils conceit. I you really think Harris and Trump both suck, you can give your first place vote to a candidate you do like, yet still have some say if, in the end, Harris and Trump are the only two left.

This kind of reform is happening all over the country - mostly at the grass roots, local level. People recognize the improvement and like having a more expressive vote. But the two entrenched parties have taken note, and are fighting it vigorously. Turns out they kind of like seeing us limited to two choices (as long as they are one of the choices). They claim that the ballot is too complicated and that voters are too stupid to rank the candidates. Or they suggest it's a plot by the other side to trick voters! They site case studies where their candidate didn't win - which of course means the system is bad. :rolleyes: All of their complaints, that I've heard, fall apart on examination. Most of them don't even make sense because they don't understand how RCV works. They just know it will get rid of the lesser-of-two-evils fearmongering - and that's all they know.
Yep…like our Constitution, Christianity and the moral order that founded, built and pillared the greatest, wealthiest, most powerful nation on the planet our election process has run it’s course and timed out….Just ask a purple hair globalist.
 
Yep…like our Constitution, Christianity and the moral order that founded, built and pillared the greatest, wealthiest, most powerful nation on the planet our election process has run it’s course and timed out….Just ask a purple hair globalist.
Thanks for the insightful comments.
 
Yes please.

What exactly is the flaw with ranked-choice voting? Can someone please explain?
 
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