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- #21
Conditioned? By whom?
Election Reform and the Spoiler Effect
- Thread starter dblack
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JoeB131
Diamond Member
As well it should.
Here's an interesting article.
Ballot Measure 2: Will Alaskans repeal ranked-choice voting & open primaries?
As supporters of ditching the state’s open primaries and ranked-choice voting say a series of candidate withdrawals and a recent court case highlights a flawed, confusing system worthy of repeal, supporters insist the system should be kept because it continues working as intended to gives voters...
www.alaskasnewssource.com
This year, after third and fourth-place open primary finishes this year, Republicans Lt. Gov Nancy Dahlstrom and Matthew Salisbury dropped out of the race, leaving Nick Begich as the only Republican on the ticket.
Before the primary, Begich said if he finished lower than second place, he would have dropped out of the race because — in his view — that created the best chance to beat Peltola in a one-on-one race.
Begich has been a critic of the ranked-choice system, saying when he ran for the U.S. House seat in 2022, some of his votes were not transferred to Republican Sarah Palin because some voters didn’t rank a second choice. In that race, Peltola ended up as the only Democrat on the ballot.
“When you’ve got more than one person credibly running from one side of the aisle, you’re going to encounter some of that ballot exhaustion, and the other side of the aisle is not going to have that, and so it makes it very difficult to construct a pathway to victory,” Begich said shortly after the primary.
JoeB131
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #24
Sing it brother. The two party drones hate RCV! Isn't it great when Republicans and Democrats can finally agree on something?!As well it should.
Here's an interesting article.
Ballot Measure 2: Will Alaskans repeal ranked-choice voting & open primaries?
As supporters of ditching the state’s open primaries and ranked-choice voting say a series of candidate withdrawals and a recent court case highlights a flawed, confusing system worthy of repeal, supporters insist the system should be kept because it continues working as intended to gives voters...
This year, after third and fourth-place open primary finishes this year, Republicans Lt. Gov Nancy Dahlstrom and Matthew Salisbury dropped out of the race, leaving Nick Begich as the only Republican on the ticket.
Before the primary, Begich said if he finished lower than second place, he would have dropped out of the race because — in his view — that created the best chance to beat Peltola in a one-on-one race.
Begich has been a critic of the ranked-choice system, saying when he ran for the U.S. House seat in 2022, some of his votes were not transferred to Republican Sarah Palin because some voters didn’t rank a second choice. In that race, Peltola ended up as the only Democrat on the ballot.
“When you’ve got more than one person credibly running from one side of the aisle, you’re going to encounter some of that ballot exhaustion, and the other side of the aisle is not going to have that, and so it makes it very difficult to construct a pathway to victory,” Begich said shortly after the primary.
Stormy Daniels
Gold Member
- Mar 19, 2018
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Rank choice voting will be the final death knell for non mainstream parties, and will confirm the final absorption of smaller parties into the duopoly.
- Thread starter
- #26
Nice. Reverse psychology!
Stormy Daniels
Gold Member
- Mar 19, 2018
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The fact that you can't get it through your head just goes to show that your political convictions have nothing to do with any principles, and are only based on contrarianism. You're just predisposed to wanting whatever is not currently the case.
JoeB131
Diamond Member
When something is this horribly stupid, then it should.
RCV didn't even do what you wanted, to allow third parties to get a foot in the door. It just split the Republican vote.
- Thread starter
- #29
Of course. That must be it.
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #30
Sure, sure. If you say so.
It's touching, seeing you looking out for your Republican brethren like this. You really do care!
JoeB131
Diamond Member
I care about Electios being effective and fair.
Not this kind of dogshit clusterfuck that Alaskans are going to trash at the first opportunity.
Independent thinker
Diamond Member
- Oct 15, 2015
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There are many reasons against RCV. I read an article that the wealthy sell us on RCV because it favors them. It's also a way to establish one party rule, which is why mostly the left favor it.Lurking at the heart of our extreme political dysfunction is a fundamentally flawed election process. The way we currently vote, everyone picks their favorite candidate, and whoever gets the most votes wins. This is called "plurality voting". Sometimes referred to as "first past the post" voting.
It sounds reasonable enough, and if there are only two candidates running it kind of works. But it breaks down when there are more than two candidates. It creates a situation where a candidate can win, even though a majority of the voters don't like them. This problem is called the "spoiler effect". And it happens fairly often.
One good example is the 1992 US Presidential Election. In that election there were three high-profile candidates. Bush Sr., Bill Clinton and Ross Perot. Conservative votes were split between Bush Sr.(37.4%) and Perot(18.9%). Bill Clinton won the election with only 43% of the vote - even though the majority of voters would have preferred a conservative President.
It happened again in 2000 when the liberal vote was split between Gore and Nader. Most Nader voters would have chosen Gore over Bush - Gore would have likely won if not for Nader being in the race.
The problem with the spoiler effect is broader than just electing the wrong candidate. To win, the major parties must discourage any like minded candidates from running in the same race. That's why the two major parties viciously attack third party candidates, even when they mostly agree with them - especially when they mostly agree with them. They actually encourage third party candidates that they disagree with, because that will split the vote of the other side. It's a backassward mess that causes a lot of unnecessary acrimony.
One way around the spoiler effect is requiring the winner to have at least 50% of the vote. Some states have implemented this (eg Georgia). The idea is that if no candidate gets more than 50% of the vote in the election, the "spoilers" are eliminated from the ballot, and everyone votes again in a runoff election. With only two candidates left, it's a certainty that one of them will get 50% of the vote.
But these runoff elections are expensive, time consuming (we might not know the results for weeks or months) and suffer from "voter fatigue" - the turnout for the runoffs is generally much lower than the initial vote. They also exclude third or fourth place vote-getters, who might have actually been the consensus winner if they'd eliminated the "spoilers" one at a time, instead of all at once.
So runoffs neutralize the spoiler effect, but most states have decided they aren't affordable and not worth the extra trouble.
This is the problem that vote-ranking systems solve. Instant Runoff Voting (IRV) or Ranked Choice Voting(RCV), lets voters rank the candidates in order of their preference. Essentially, the are casting their votes in potential runoff elections when they first go to the polls. You can, for example, say "Nader is my favorite, but if he's not close, I'd rather have Gore than Bush. Or "Perot is my favorite, but if he doesn't get a majority, I'd rather my vote go to Bush than Clinton".
It's a subtle change, but it has some really nice benefits. First of all, the major parties no longer have incentive to attack third party candidates. Instead of alienating third party voters, the major parties will have incentive to make an honest appeal to them. It also does away with the lesser of two evils conceit. I you really think Harris and Trump both suck, you can give your first place vote to a candidate you do like, yet still have some say if, in the end, Harris and Trump are the only two left.
This kind of reform is happening all over the country - mostly at the grass roots, local level. People recognize the improvement and like having a more expressive vote. But the two entrenched parties have taken note, and are fighting it vigorously. Turns out they kind of like seeing us limited to two choices (as long as they are one of the choices). They claim that the ballot is too complicated and that voters are too stupid to rank the candidates. Or they suggest it's a plot by the other side to trick voters! They site case studies where their candidate didn't win - which of course means the system is bad.All of their complaints, that I've heard, fall apart on examination. Most of them don't even make sense because they don't understand how RCV works. They just know it will get rid of the lesser-of-two-evils fearmongering - and that's all they know.
Ranked-Choice Disaster
Today on TAP: Coloradans and Nevadans will decide this fall on switching to a form of voting that will chiefly benefit gazillionaire candidates.
prospect.org
Ranked-Choice Voting: A Disaster in Disguise
Ranked-choice voting needlessly complicates the voting system, leading to voter confusion, lower turnout, and slower election results.
thefga.org
Ranked-Choice Voting: A Partisan Plot to Engineer Election Results
Democrats push for ranked-choice voting nationwide, but its history shows many ballots discarded. Voters can't be sure their vote will count.
thefga.org
- Thread starter
- #33
RCV is bad, mkay?There are many reasons against RCV. I read an article that the wealthy sell us on RCV because it favors them. It's also a way to establish one party rule, which is why mostly the left favor it.
Ranked-Choice Disaster
Today on TAP: Coloradans and Nevadans will decide this fall on switching to a form of voting that will chiefly benefit gazillionaire candidates.
Ranked-Choice Voting: A Disaster in Disguise
Ranked-choice voting needlessly complicates the voting system, leading to voter confusion, lower turnout, and slower election results.
Ranked-Choice Voting: A Partisan Plot to Engineer Election Results
Democrats push for ranked-choice voting nationwide, but its history shows many ballots discarded. Voters can't be sure their vote will count.
BrokeLoser
Diamond Member
What do you think went wrong with the current system we’ve used for decades and why did it go wrong?
Obviously you believe RCV will allow new parties to emerge, what differentiates these new parties from the duopoly? What policies do these new parties sell that are desirable, viable, sustainable and distinct?
Independent thinker
Diamond Member
- Oct 15, 2015
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Yes, RCV is bad. I posted several links but apparently you don't listen to facts. There is a reason why only Democrats and the rich favor RCV.
JoeB131
Diamond Member
Did you actually read the articles... they are actually pretty good.
- Thread starter
- #38
I think I explained most of that in the OP. This isn't about any specific parties. It's about eliminate lesser-of-two-evils voting. I think it's poison.
- Thread starter
- #39
I did. Outside of the usual petty, incorrect criticisms (It's complicated! Voters are too stupid to rank! It's a trick by the other side!), the only valid complaint was that it weakens political parties. And that might be true. I'm OK with that.
JoeB131
Diamond Member
Yeah, you think that, but is "lesser of three evils" any better.
Let's be blunt here. There were no third parties in AK with RCV. It was one Democrat vs. two Republicans, and the REpublican lost because the vote was split on the first round and votes didn't carry over into the second round.
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