Dying for a nation that's not...

Bullypulpit

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2004
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Columbus, OH
<blockquote>Of all the absurdities attending our unending war in Iraq, the greatest is this: We are fighting to defend that which is not there.

We are fighting for a national government that is not national but sectarian, and has shown no capacity to govern. We are training Iraq's security forces to combat sectarian violence though those forces are thoroughly sectarian and have themselves engaged in large-scale sectarian violence. We are fighting for a nonsectarian, pluralistic Iraq, though whatever nonsectarian and pluralistic institutions existed before our invasion have long since been blasted out of existence. In the December 2005 parliamentary elections, the one nonsectarian party, which ran both Shiite and Sunni candidates, won just 8 percent of the vote.

Every day, George W. Bush asks young Americans to die in defense of an Iraq that has ceased to exist (if it ever did) in the hearts and minds of Iraqis. What Iraqis believe in are sectarian or tribal Iraqs -- a Shiite Iraq, a Sunni Iraq, an autonomous Kurdish Iraqi state, an Iraq where Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani or Muqtada al-Sadr or some other chieftain holds sway. - <a href=http://www.sacbee.com/110/story/199777.html>The Sacramento Bee</a> </blockquote>

The Shi'ite led Iraqi 'government' is on vacation for two months while our troops fight and die in Baghdad's streets. Iraqi security forces either don't show up, or show little interest in doing more than settling grudges with Sunni rivals in the areas our troops have cleared. Combined US/Iraqi forces hold 1/3, or fewer, Baghdad neighborhoods. The death toll amongst our troops is already on a pace to outstrip last month's casualties. Yet Bush and his administration fiddle while Baghdad burns.

With more and more retired generals who served on the ground in Iraq, Gen Sanchez being the latest, speaking out against the administration's policy in Iraq. Bush and Co talk of a 50 year presence in Iraq as if that would be the magic sword to cut the Gordian knot that Iraq has become under the leadership (I'm using that term lightly here) of their administration.

Iraqi citizen's don't see a unified Iraq, rather they see it as territories divided between Kurds, Sunnis and Shi'ias and are taking steps on their own to establish those divisions, particularly amongst the Sunnis and Shi'ias, the Kurds are doing fine on their own.

The Bush administration couldn't have foreseen these consequences as they lacked the breadth of vision to actually see the sweep of history in that region, and elsewhere. In their arrogance, they simply assumed that they could go in, take out Hussein and a grateful populace would quickly fall in line behind whatever government was installed. Never mind that it was Saddam Hussein's ruthlessness and brutality that kept these sectarian rivalries at bay.

We have a recent lesson in what happens when a strong-man dictator is removed from the scene abruptly. Remember Yugoslavia? Tito's death gave us the horrors of ethnic cleansing as Serbs and Croats slaughtered each other in an internecine struggle that had been contained by the force of Tito's rule. But history has been but a a minor footnote to Bush and his cronies, they didn't forget history...they simply ignored it. And now, they've repeated it.
 
Not all the Generals agree - even those who are opposed to the war say we need to stay

http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010168

But what isn't discussed in the piece is how we leave a "stable Iraq". It's certainly not going to be following the course laid out by Bush who, as Georgie Anne Geyer pointed out, is "...setting Iraq up so his successor could not get out of 'our country's destiny.' ".

It can't be done absent the involvement of all the nations in the region, including those Bush and his cabal don't want to talk to.
 
Iraqis are fighting abck against the terrorists

Here is only one example - there are many


Ordinary Iraqis Wage a Successful Battle Against Insurgents
By ROBERT F. WORTH

Published: March 22, 2005


AGHDAD, Iraq, March 22 - Ordinary Iraqis rarely strike back at the insurgents who terrorize their country. But just before noon today, a carpenter named Dhia saw a troop of masked gunmen with grenades coming towards his shop and decided he had had enough.

As the gunmen emerged from their cars, Dhia and his young relatives shouldered their own AK-47's and opened fire, police and witnesses said. In the fierce gun battle that followed, three of the insurgents were killed, and the rest fled just after the police arrived. Two of Dhia's young nephews and a bystander were injured, the police said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/22/i...=4fab5dc83f59b0ae&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland
 
Iraqis are fighting abck against the terrorists

Here is only one example - there are many


Ordinary Iraqis Wage a Successful Battle Against Insurgents
By ROBERT F. WORTH

Published: March 22, 2005


AGHDAD, Iraq, March 22 - Ordinary Iraqis rarely strike back at the insurgents who terrorize their country. But just before noon today, a carpenter named Dhia saw a troop of masked gunmen with grenades coming towards his shop and decided he had had enough.

As the gunmen emerged from their cars, Dhia and his young relatives shouldered their own AK-47's and opened fire, police and witnesses said. In the fierce gun battle that followed, three of the insurgents were killed, and the rest fled just after the police arrived. Two of Dhia's young nephews and a bystander were injured, the police said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/22/i...=4fab5dc83f59b0ae&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland

So why, then, do we need to spend out blood and treasure in that benighted land?
 
So why, then, do we need to spend out blood and treasure in that benighted land?

The surge is showing signs of progress. Therefore, Dems must try to push for surrender. Dems cannot and will not allow progress to be made - they have already said the war is lost

If the US military and the people of Iraq start to win - that is a huge loss for the Dems
 
The surge is showing signs of progress. Therefore, Dems must try to push for surrender. Dems cannot and will not allow progress to be made - they have already said the war is lost

If the US military and the people of Iraq start to win - that is a huge loss for the Dems

Surrender? To whom? Can you cite one credible, independent instance of a Democrat calling for surrender?...To anyone? Or are you content, as usual, to parrot the White House talking points and expect to be taken seriously?
 
Surrender? To whom? Can you cite one credible, independent instance of a Democrat calling for surrender?...To anyone? Or are you content, as usual, to parrot the White House talking points and expect to be taken seriously?

When you tell the enemy when you are leaving, before the job is done, so they will have a free hand to do what they want - it is surrender
 
Surrender? To whom? Can you cite one credible, independent instance of a Democrat calling for surrender?...To anyone? Or are you content, as usual, to parrot the White House talking points and expect to be taken seriously?

Ahh , your free to rant using Liberal talking points though right? That of course is DIFFERENT, right?
 
Surrender? To whom? Can you cite one credible, independent instance of a Democrat calling for surrender?...To anyone? Or are you content, as usual, to parrot the White House talking points and expect to be taken seriously?
To whom? Al Qaeda, Sunni and Shiite extremists, Iran, Syria, and all the forces that do not want a democratic Iraq. But Bully, you already knew the answer. Currently, 15 percent of respondents in an ABC poll want immediate withdrawl, i.e., immediate surrender. Most Democrats want a 2008 date certain for withdrawl from Iraq. That is scheduled surrender. Obviously Al Qaeda, Sunni and Shiite murderer squads, and all others that want to rip up the Iraqi Constitution, are eagerly waiting for the date certain departure. Then blood drenched combat for sectarian and totalitarian power will ensue. Of course those who voted for date certain will disavow responsibility.
 
To whom? Al Qaeda, Sunni and Shiite extremists, Iran, Syria, and all the forces that do not want a democratic Iraq. But Bully, you already knew the answer. Currently, 15 percent of respondents in an ABC poll want immediate withdrawl, i.e., immediate surrender. Most Democrats want a 2008 date certain for withdrawl from Iraq. That is scheduled surrender. Obviously Al Qaeda, Sunni and Shiite murderer squads, and all others that want to rip up the Iraqi Constitution, are eagerly waiting for the date certain departure. Then blood drenched combat for sectarian and totalitarian power will ensue. Of course those who voted for date certain will disavow responsibility.

Again, surrender to whom? Our troops are caught in the middle of a civil war between Shi'ites and Sunnis which is rapidly becoming a proxy-war between Iran and Saudi Arabia. How does one interpret getting our troops out of the middle of this cluster-fuck as surrender? How does getting our troops home where they can actually do the job of Homeland Security constitute surrender? How does ending the wasting of our blood and treasure as a salve to Bush's ego constitute surrender? How does getting our troops out of a situation they never should have been placed in surrender?

Keep drinking the kool-aid.
 
Again, surrender to whom? Our troops are caught in the middle of a civil war between Shi'ites and Sunnis which is rapidly becoming a proxy-war between Iran and Saudi Arabia. How does one interpret getting our troops out of the middle of this cluster-fuck as surrender? How does getting our troops home where they can actually do the job of Homeland Security constitute surrender? How does ending the wasting of our blood and treasure as a salve to Bush's ego constitute surrender? How does getting our troops out of a situation they never should have been placed in surrender?

Keep drinking the kool-aid.

There is no civil war, constantly claiming there is doesn't make it true.
 
did you have a source you can post to prove your assertion?


I dont think screaming that I called you a babykiller will suffice.
 
did you have a source you can post to prove your assertion?


I dont think screaming that I called you a babykiller will suffice.

Ohh I don't know, The US President, the Joint Chief's of Staff, the Military commanders in Iraq, and the Iraq Government and military. ohh wait those are all right wing whackos. MY bad, we should believe news "reporters" that do not even leave the Green Zone.
 
THAT amounts to posting your sources?

didnt take advantage of that G.I. bill I see..


is this when you need to scream that I called you a babykiller?


*yawn*
 
THAT amounts to posting your sources?

didnt take advantage of that G.I. bill I see..


is this when you need to scream that I called you a babykiller?


*yawn*

Babies are to hard to kill, to small, you have to close on them and bayonet them. Much easier to shoot older kids and women. The elderly are pretty easy to, they move so slow. You see the trick with a crowd is to do like any good Duck Hunter would do, shoot the last one and work your way to the front, that way they don't see it happening and you do not panic them. Bigger kill count that way.

Well of course if we still used napalm THAT would be the easiest of all.
 
THAT amounts to posting your sources?

didnt take advantage of that G.I. bill I see..


is this when you need to scream that I called you a babykiller?


*yawn*

How does one provide a difinitive proof that something is NOT happening? I suggest you provide your A list of experts that have determined a Civil War is now raging in Iraq.
 
I suggest you scrape up what gonads you have left and start supporting someone whose answer to Iraq violence is NOT some ignorant blank check just because you know damn well your predictions over the last 5 years have been so fucking wrong that your track record for solutions would cripple your fucking political party for the next four presidential cycles.



I tellya.. NOTHING says no civil war quite like

Roundup of iraq Violence -- Saturday May 26, 2007
By Hussein Kadhim
McClatchy Newspapers

The Iraq violence report is compiled daily by McClatchy Newspapers in Baghdad from police, military and medical reports. This is not a comprehensive list of all violence in Iraq, much of which goes unreported. It’s posted without editing as transmitted to McClatchy’s Washington Bureau.

Baghdad

- At 1 am., a roadside bomb exploded when an Iraqi army patrol passed through Jami'aa neighborhood injuring four soldiers with some damage to their vehicle.

- Local authorities and the U.S. military gave conflicting accounts of an incident near the Habibiya hospital in east Baghdad early Saturday. Lt.Col. Christopher Garver, a spokesman for the U.S.-led multinational force, said U.S. and Iraqi troops detained a suspected terrorist cell leader and fought off an ambush as they moved to leave the area. Local authorities said the troops had mistakenly fired on cars moving into a line for gasoline, and that two people were killed and five were injured.

- After mid-day, a car bomb exploded at Bayaa neighborhood (south west Baghdad ) killing 4 people and injuring 25.

- A few minutes later, mortars hit Bayaa neighborhood (south west Baghdad ) killing 2 people and injuring 40.

- The following incidents took place between 4 pm and 8 pm :

- A roadside bomb exploded at Mansour neighborhood ( west Baghdad ) near Al-Azaim restaurant killing one civilian and injuring three.

- A mortar shelling hit Mahmoudiya district ( south of Baghdad ) injuring three people.

- Mortars hit Haifa neighborhood ( near the downtown of the city) injuring two people.

- Two police vehicles were ambushed by gunmen leaving three dead policemen and 6 injured.

- Gunmen opened fire on a checkpoint near Adhamiya neighborhood injuring one soldier.

- Mortar shelling hit Sinaa sport club ( east Baghdad ) injuring 8 people.

- 20 dead bodies were found in different parts of Baghdad as the following: 10 in west Baghdad (Kharkh bank) -- 2 in Jihad, 2 in Shulaa 3 in Amil, 1 in Bayaa, 1 in I'lam, 1 in Toubchi. 10 were found in east Baghdad (Rusafa bank) -- 2 in Madayin, 2 in Suleikh, 2 in Jamiyla, 2 in Jisr Diyala, 1 in Ur, 1 in New Baghdad.

Kirkuk

Kirkuk police reported the following incidents on Satudday, some from Friday evening:

- Around 7:10 pm of Friday, police found a body of a new police recruit near Hanaf village of Abassi district (south west of Kirkuk).

- Around 7:50 pm Fridayg, police found 3 dead bodies in Rubaidha village of Daqouq district south of Kirkuk. Two were men workers while the third was a boy whose age was only six.

- Around 10:50 pm of Friday, a roadside bomb targeted a joint patrol for the Iraqi and multi forces near the power supply office at Hawija district ( west of Kirkuk) having two policemen injured .

- Around 7 am, a roadside bomb exploded when a civilian car passed through Kirkuk–Dibis route near Chirakh village injuring two of the civilians with some damage to the car.

- Around 4 pm, police found a dead body inside a car which was burning when police arrived to extinguish fire on the main way that leads to Abu Uluk cemetery in the downtown of Kirkuk city. Eyewitnesses said that there were a man and woman inside the car, but they left the car after burning it .

Diyala

-Around mid-day, three dead bodies were found in three different parts of Diyala taken to Baquba morgue.

- Saturday afternoon, gunmen killed two people one of them was a woman at Muqdadiya district ( 45 km north east Baquba) near the youth centre of the city.

Salah ad Din

- Before mid-day, a police officer (a captain) was killed by gunmen on the highway of Tikrit–Dour.

- Around 12.30 pm, gunmen killed the commander of Iraqi police battalion ( Hais Al-Jibouri ) in Salah ad Din province on the main motorway between Salahuddin- Mosul south Shurqat ( north of Tikrit)

Basra

- Friday night, a gunman was killed and two injured during clashes with British forces, which had got three injures.

- Early this morning, members of Mahdi Army attacked a headquarter of the combined forces at Al-Hakimiya neighborhood downtown Basra city . Clashes between both sides lasted for hours using different kinds of weapons. Four members of Mahdi Army killed and four others injured while only a British soldier was injured with great damage to the building.

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwas...713.htm?source=rss&channel=krwashington_world

Iraq violence resurges amid 'surge'

WASHINGTON - Halfway through the implementation of President George W Bush's "surge" strategy to enhance security in Baghdad and Iraq's predominantly Sunni Muslim al-Anbar province, evidence that it is turning the tide nationwide is hard to come by.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/ID21Ak05.html


Cease-Fire Eyed to Stop Iraq Violence

WASHINGTON - U.S. military commanders are talking with Iraqi militants about cease-fires and other arrangements to try to stop the violence, the No. 2 American commander said Thursday.

WASHINGTON - U.S. military commanders are talking with Iraqi militants about cease-fires and other arrangements to try to stop the violence, the No. 2 American commander said Thursday.
 

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