Draft-dodger Clinton

[High_Gravity]

WTF did Gore do in Nam anyway????

One of the privilaged elite. Old man was a US Senator. Got out of serving in combat.

Went to massause parlors in Saigon probably...........................

Nah. Al Gore was a military journalist assigned to 20th Engineer BDE, Bien Hoa between Jan. and May 1971. Wrote for the brigade newspaper. Story was (maybe true, maybe not) that he walked around 'Nam with a bodyguard, to make sure he didn't get hurt. Hell, at least he went, and at that time pretty much anyone with a college degree could wangle his way into a non-combat MOS if so inclined (and a lot did). You don't think they were going to let a senator's son (even an ex-senator's son) actually get shot at, do you?

Seems like Gore was out-of harms way in Nam..

About themassuag ething - was thinking about the Portland hotel incident

Nigga shut your drunk ass up.

 

[geauxtohell]

his advisors said that was a bigger is sue in the 92 prez campaighn than the womaniziijng

make a joke about " I dondmt inhale"

Clinton dodged the draft.

So did Dan Quayle, George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Newt Gingrich, Rush Limbaugh and a slew of other influential people.

Ironically, two men that didn't dodge the draft, Al Gore and John Kerry frequently have their combat service ridiculed.

I guess they would have been better with a deferment or a plush state side National Guard spot.

At any rate, stop acting like Clinton was the only one. Most people who had the ability got out of that war.

 

[geauxtohell]

Clinton would have been laughed out of national politics if it wasn't for the support of the left wing media. The left wing media knew that Clinton was a border line draft dodger but he couldn't be prosecuted because of Carter's pardons and the statute of limitations. The left wing media also knew of Clinton's serial abuse of women but chose to laugh off the "bimbo eruption squad".

It was Ford that handed out the pardons.

Even if he hadn't, Clinton didn't do anything that could have been prosecuted. He just used every loophole at his disposal to get out of going to 'Nam.

Just like Cheney and Bush.

 

[Si modo]

Clinton would have been laughed out of national politics if it wasn't for the support of the left wing media. The left wing media knew that Clinton was a border line draft dodger but he couldn't be prosecuted because of Carter's pardons and the statute of limitations. The left wing media also knew of Clinton's serial abuse of women but chose to laugh off the "bimbo eruption squad".

It was Ford that handed out the pardons.

Even if he hadn't, Clinton didn't do anything that could have been prosecuted. He just used every loophole at his disposal to get out of going to 'Nam.

Just like Cheney and Bush.

Exactly.

None of them are 'draft dodgers'. They used the law to avoid service.

As did everyone in my family during that time. Thankfully.

 

[geauxtohell]

Now, I can't think of any reason that Vietnam combat vets would have a much higher incidence of PTSD than their WW II counterparts,

I can. PTSD wasn't a recognized diagnosis until 1982.

Those people who think that the World War II vets came home in a post war euphoria and never wrestled with the psychological effects of war are smoking crack.

In fact, if you research it, the psychological effects of war have plagued every veteran. Look up the root of the term "nostalgia".

 

[The Gadfly]

Now, I can't think of any reason that Vietnam combat vets would have a much higher incidence of PTSD than their WW II counterparts,

I can. PTSD wasn't a recognized diagnosis until 1982.

Those people who think that the World War II vets came home in a post war euphoria and never wrestled with the psychological effects of war are smoking crack.

In fact, if you research it, the psychological effects of war have plagued every veteran. Look up the root of the term "nostalgia".

I was referring to the symptom complex, Geaux, not the terminology. I think in earlier times it was called "shell shock" or "battle fatigue". Talk to enough WW II or Korea vets, and you'll find the same psychological problems we had. I have noticed that as a group, they seem to have coped with it a little better. Maybe they had a wider support network of other vets to talk to; I'm not certain. Whatever you call it, that same emotional damage occurs in every war; it seems to be the human mind's reaction to stress it cannot process. I actually worry more about the long-term effects on the troops today, what with the multiple deployments and so on; even though there have been advances in identifying problems earlier, and treating them, I'm afraid we are going to find a higher incidence of really debilitating PTSD among them.

 

[geauxtohell]

Both wanted to stay out of Vietnam, and I don't blame them. I wouldn't have wanted to go, either.

"Wanting to go" into combat is a pretty strong phrase, in that situation. I think most of us felt we had a DUTY to go, an obligation to our country, and to freedom. I don't think there's much of that mindset left these days.

I agree, and Viet Nam plays a large part in that. People no longer trust their government in the judicious use of its military force.

 

[geauxtohell]

WTF did Gore do in Nam anyway????

More than you, Johnny "I would have fought in Viet Nam if it was a real war".

Yeah, we all remember some of the more stupid things you have said on here.

 

[geauxtohell]

Now, I can't think of any reason that Vietnam combat vets would have a much higher incidence of PTSD than their WW II counterparts,

I can. PTSD wasn't a recognized diagnosis until 1982.

Those people who think that the World War II vets came home in a post war euphoria and never wrestled with the psychological effects of war are smoking crack.

In fact, if you research it, the psychological effects of war have plagued every veteran. Look up the root of the term "nostalgia".

I was referring to the symptom complex, Geaux, not the terminology. I think in earlier times it was called "shell shock" or "battle fatigue". Talk to enough WW II or Korea vets, and you'll find the same psychological problems we had. I have noticed that as a group, they seem to have coped with it a little better. Maybe they had a wider support network of other vets to talk to; I'm not certain. Whatever you call it, that same emotional damage occurs in every war; it seems to be the human mind's reaction to stress it cannot process. I actually worry more about the long-term effects on the troops today, what with the multiple deployments and so on; even though there have been advances in identifying problems earlier, and treating them, I'm afraid we are going to find a higher incidence of really debilitating PTSD among them.

And in the civil war it was "soldier's heart". There is an account from the battle of Athens of a Greek soldier going blind after witnessing the death of his comrade at his side, even though he himself had not been wounded. It's taken a long time for society to come to grips with the psychological effects of war. That being coupled with the fact that we can now treat PTSD makes it a more hot button issue.

Other than that, I agree that the vague missions and different types of conflicts coupled with the fact that it is actually diagnosed is why there is an increase in PTSD. I think anyone that has experienced any degree of combat (not the jack asses who hid out in FOBS for a year) has some degree of psychological trauma. I am just glad that it is now being recognized and the VA and DOD is serious about treating it.

BTW, the Viet Nam veteran's lobby was instrumental in getting PTSD into the DSM IV (psych manual). They knew it was a medical problem before the medical establishment did (it took them about 15 years of lobbying). The DOD and VA fought them tooth and nail. They didn't want to pay for the treatment.

 

[The Gadfly]

John Kerry won a Silver Star a Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts......How did you do Swiftboater?

snopes.com: John Kerry's Service Record

Hey, who are you calling "Swiftboater"? Kerry was in fact a swiftboater; I was an Army NCO. Army and Navy are somewhat less than fond of being confused.

Compare records? I don't have a problem with that.

My record does NOT contain anything as damning from a former CO as:


KERRY’S C.O. DISPUTES VALIDITY OF FIRST “WOUND”

Grant Hibbard of Gulf Breeze, Fla., a retired Navy officer, told MilitaryCorruption.com he was the commanding officer to whom Kerry reported his “battle wound” on Dec. 3, 1968.

“I had confirmed that there was no hostile fire that night and that Kerry had simply wounded himself with an M-79 grenade round he fired too close. He wanted a Purple Heart, and I refused.”

The former Navy commander said Louis Letson, the base physician, saw Kerry and used tweezers to remove a tiny piece of shrapnel – about 1 centimeter in length and 2 millimeters in diameter – from the lieutenant j.g.’s (junior grade) forearm.

“Letson confirmed that the scratch had been self-inflicted when Kerry clumsily used the M-79.”

It’s been more than 35 years since the incident, but Hibbard still recalls Kerry’s actions with disgust.

“It is unacceptable to nominate yourself for a combat award. It compromises the basic military principle that we survive together.. To promote yourself is to denigrate your team . . . Kerry orchestrated his way out of Vietnam [in four months – a third of the required tour of duty] and then testified, under oath, before Congress that we, his comrades, had committed horrible war crimes..

“This testimony was a lie and slandered honorable men. We, who were actually there, believe he is unfit to command our sons and daughters.”

SO-CALLED “WAR HERO” JOHN KERRY A FRAUD

1cm by 2mm, huh? Splinters come bigger than that. I know, because I pulled one bigger than that out of my hand last week after setting a couple of fence posts; couldn't have bled more than a drop.

Doc,
You ever see anyone in the command you were in written up for a PH for a "battle wound" like that? Damn, if I had known that qualified, I had some cuts from elephant grass I could have....I mean, after all, they might have been caused by grenade fragments (there were some flying around).... Seriously, I don't remember anyone being written up for a PH for any superficial wound they didn't miss at least one day's duty because of. Now that I think on it, I can't remember any officer I knew ever asking his CO to put him in for one, either. You suppose the Navy is different, that way?

 

[Sunshine]

Now, I can't think of any reason that Vietnam combat vets would have a much higher incidence of PTSD than their WW II counterparts,

I can. PTSD wasn't a recognized diagnosis until 1982.

Those people who think that the World War II vets came home in a post war euphoria and never wrestled with the psychological effects of war are smoking crack.

In fact, if you research it, the psychological effects of war have plagued every veteran. Look up the root of the term "nostalgia".

I was referring to the symptom complex, Geaux, not the terminology. I think in earlier times it was called "shell shock" or "battle fatigue". Talk to enough WW II or Korea vets, and you'll find the same psychological problems we had. I have noticed that as a group, they seem to have coped with it a little better. Maybe they had a wider support network of other vets to talk to; I'm not certain. Whatever you call it, that same emotional damage occurs in every war; it seems to be the human mind's reaction to stress it cannot process. I actually worry more about the long-term effects on the troops today, what with the multiple deployments and so on; even though there have been advances in identifying problems earlier, and treating them, I'm afraid we are going to find a higher incidence of really debilitating PTSD among them.

Yes, this is true. But most of the WWII vets were able to 'put it out of their minds.' For a good long while. When I worked at the VA in the 90s. I saw lots of WWII vets who retired who had PTSD symptoms for the first time in their lives. They had just managed to keep it compartmentalized for all those years.

I will say this as well: The WWII vets saw the Vietnam vets as losers. I know one Vietnam vet whose father was a WWII vet who said to his son, 'WE won OUR war.' His son replied, 'you wouldn't let US win OURS.' So there is a lot of bad blood there that really never hits the media. And we all remember the Vietnam vets tickertape parade, what, 10, maybe 15 years after they came home. Lots of bad blood. Toward the country, the government, the VA, other vets, themselves. It's not simple. Reductionists lose this one.