Dow Drops 317. Time For Crackheads to Ween Themselves from Stimulus

You need to study the bond market.

No I don't, I don't buy bonds, I buy land...sell land...

Moon, you need to study it so you don't say something as clueless as "this will help our debt." This will have a huge impact.

Look Obama has killed the bond market. Killed savings by pushing the return on bonds to be close to zero.

THAT is why everyone is in the stock market. They've been pushed there....not pulled by great economic conditions. This is the part of Keynsian theory where it goes tango uniform.

Once interest rates go up, people will start to rush to other investments....and out of the stock market.

SERIOUSLY? YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE AN ECONOMIST? LOL

For all the concern fixed-income assets will tumble once the central bank boosts rates, the Treasury Department still managed to get investors to submit $3.4 trillion of bids for the $1.12 trillion of notes and bonds sold this year, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. That represents a bid-to-cover ratio of 3.06, the second-highest on record and up from 2.88 in all of last year.

Attracting investors is critical for the U.S. as it finances a debt load that has more than doubled to almost $18 trillion since before the financial crisis. The appeal of Treasuries was on display last week as benchmark 10-year notes rallied the most since March while investors sought a haven amid rising concern over the health of a Portuguese bank.

There are still plenty of needy buyers,” William O’Donnell, head U.S. government bond strategist at Royal Bank of Scotland Group Plc’s RBS Securities unit in Stamford, Connecticut, said in a July 8 telephone interview. “We’ve seen it from all sources,” said O’Donnell, whose firm is one of the 22 primary dealers of U.S. debt obligated to bid at Treasury auctions.

Traders Flood U.S. With $3.4 Trillion of Bond-Auction Demand - Bloomberg
 
The big picture point is that the Keynsian approach to big spending and cheap money finally has its limit. Today is the first sign they're coming to the end of the Keynsian benefits. Or better put, now it's time to start paying the piper for all the "create money out of nothing" approach this govt has taken for years.
So the big "told you so" thread were you are celebrating your prognostication is about today being a sign?

What were telling people "just wait some day the stock market will show something that I can interpret as a sign" woohoo you sure nailed it with a concrete and measurable prediction. Is Cormier going to beat Jones at UFC 178 in September?

The market will still go up and down....and the wise arbitrators will make money. I'm talking about this is the part where the Fed Chair is about to land a plane on the runway with blown out tires.
Okay and what will be the result of blown out tires? You appear to be setting yourself up for more celebrations over vague predictions.

Will the market tumble more than 20%?

Ok, clueless, obviously trying to get you to think strategically is impossible. This is where people who claim Keynsian economics is the best way to grow and fix an economy are about to start getting their rude awakenings. Since you don't seem to ever understand what I'm talking about, I'm saying Obama has been following very strong Keynsian principles that the rest of us keep saying are going to bite him and the country.

I don't expect you to get it. This is the classic fight between big spenders and fiscal conservatives.

Besides spouting Keynsian , Keynsian , Keynsian do you have anything to base your bullshit premise on?
 
I don't invest in stocks, I do real estate...

if true, you should know it works just like the SM, ups and downs...,.ups and downs...,.ups and downs, so when do you see a major recovery in the RE market ?

i once done real estate, got my license and started when the market was down, shortly after, it went off like a rocket, back when a $50,000.00 house in Commiefornia went to $250,000.00 almost over night. i picked up a few extra $$$$$$$ and quit just as the market fell to it's knees. :up:
 
So the big "told you so" thread were you are celebrating your prognostication is about today being a sign?

What were telling people "just wait some day the stock market will show something that I can interpret as a sign" woohoo you sure nailed it with a concrete and measurable prediction. Is Cormier going to beat Jones at UFC 178 in September?


Okay and what will be the result of blown out tires? You appear to be setting yourself up for more celebrations over vague predictions.

Will the market tumble more than 20%?

Ok, clueless, obviously trying to get you to think strategically is impossible. This is where people who claim Keynsian economics is the best way to grow and fix an economy are about to start getting their rude awakenings. Since you don't seem to ever understand what I'm talking about, I'm saying Obama has been following very strong Keynsian principles that the rest of us keep saying are going to bite him and the country.

I don't expect you to get it. This is the classic fight between big spenders and fiscal conservatives.

Besides spouting Keynsian , Keynsian , Keynsian do you have anything to base your bullshit premise on?

i understood what Chick said.., why don't you ?

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Well, look at that.

Just like those of us who actually understand the market predicted.

All that artificial driving up of the stock market numbers we kept warning about? Well, we told ya, what goes up, must come down.

And we warned ya that once there were "signs" of an "improving" economy, the crack heads would have to start weening themselves from all that free money pushing up the stock market. Well not free, but with zero interest rates, almost free.

Ooops, in Obama's fucked up Bizzarro World, good economic news is bad news for the stock market.

This is the watershed event. Watch smart investors start to slowly pull out.

Agreed 100%

If you really want to see how loose monetary policy can create a destructive bubble, you should study Greenspan's easy money policies under Clinton and Bush 43. Reagan's maestro, Greenspan, the famed collaborator with Ayn Rand, poured more money on asset markets than Obama or Bernanke could ever dream. Not only was the money supply over-expanded to counter the 2001 recession, but rate management and monetary policy were simply criminal (-we expect this under the Democrats, but what happened under Bush left a smoking crater over this nation that is unprecedented. It became very clear that the Bush/Greenspan partnership was fueling a dead economy with pure fiat money, creating an artificial boom so as to take the pressure off a failing foreign policy and win a 2nd term. This is why libertarians don't like giving politicians or the fed large financial levers, because it's too easy for flawed humans to use them corruptly. This is why the market should set interest rates or tether the money supply to something real).

The sad part is that Republicans, the party which claims to be financial responsible, tolerated Greenspan's antics for so long, especially when serving under a Republican president. Greenspan, against severe objections, kept lowering the target for the federal funds interest rate which began 2001 at 6.25 percent and finished the year at 1.75 percent, bringing the price of borrowing to a level that caused a toxic expansion of credit. Rates were held at 50 year lows despite pleading with Bush to take the hammer off Greenspan so he would stop using below-market rates to pump up assets with credit. And what about the dollar, which was destroyed under Bush, and had the effect of pushing not just the poor but the global pool of money deeper into "real" assets like houses (or securities tied to"real" assets). Never before was credit used to recklessly to stimulate an economy, and it is unclear that the USA will recover from this in my lifetime.

But here is what takes the cake. Watch this video if you really care about this issue. Listen carefully to Bush's plans to put more Americans - especially poor Americans - in homes. He literally spells out his plan for getting rid of things like down-payments so that people with zero assets can get into homes for nothing. He takes under-applied liberal policies that had been around for a long time and uses them to create the largest, most destructive bubble in world history. And yes, he created a temporary "prosperity bubble" and he got past Kerry. (Why do all politicians who go to Washington get sucked into Keynesian Temptation for their own political benefit? Why do we voters - at least the stupid ones - never criticize our side of the aisle for these things? Have we been reduced to mere cheerleaders who use issues like this only to attack the other side? How did we get here?)


In short, I agree with you. Easy money all too often leads to destructive bubbles, and Obama's economic policies were clearly designed to take care of Wall Street investors (not the poor, as many would have us believe). But let's face facts. Nearly all monetary policy since Carter's Volkler was vanquished to make room for Reagan's maestro has been exclusively used to pump up stock values with fiat money at the expense of good old fashion savers.
 
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Well, look at that.

Just like those of us who actually understand the market predicted.

All that artificial driving up of the stock market numbers we kept warning about? Well, we told ya, what goes up, must come down.

And we warned ya that once there were "signs" of an "improving" economy, the crack heads would have to start weening themselves from all that free money pushing up the stock market. Well not free, but with zero interest rates, almost free.

Ooops, in Obama's fucked up Bizzarro World, good economic news is bad news for the stock market.

This is the watershed event. Watch smart investors start to slowly pull out.

Wow, this is horrible. It reminds me of the stock market crash of 2008. What shall we do? Don't worry, all is well. The stock market can afford a small drop. Main Street is gaining strength and that will provide the stock market with enormous growth over the next decade. It won't surprise me to see the DOW double by 2025, and that's being conservative.
 
No I don't, I don't buy bonds, I buy land...sell land...

Moon, you need to study it so you don't say something as clueless as "this will help our debt." This will have a huge impact.

Look Obama has killed the bond market. Killed savings by pushing the return on bonds to be close to zero.

THAT is why everyone is in the stock market. They've been pushed there....not pulled by great economic conditions. This is the part of Keynsian theory where it goes tango uniform.

Once interest rates go up, people will start to rush to other investments....and out of the stock market.

SERIOUSLY? YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE AN ECONOMIST? LOL

For all the concern fixed-income assets will tumble once the central bank boosts rates, the Treasury Department still managed to get investors to submit $3.4 trillion of bids for the $1.12 trillion of notes and bonds sold this year, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. That represents a bid-to-cover ratio of 3.06, the second-highest on record and up from 2.88 in all of last year.

Attracting investors is critical for the U.S. as it finances a debt load that has more than doubled to almost $18 trillion since before the financial crisis. The appeal of Treasuries was on display last week as benchmark 10-year notes rallied the most since March while investors sought a haven amid rising concern over the health of a Portuguese bank.

There are still plenty of needy buyers,” William O’Donnell, head U.S. government bond strategist at Royal Bank of Scotland Group Plc’s RBS Securities unit in Stamford, Connecticut, said in a July 8 telephone interview. “We’ve seen it from all sources,” said O’Donnell, whose firm is one of the 22 primary dealers of U.S. debt obligated to bid at Treasury auctions.

Traders Flood U.S. With $3.4 Trillion of Bond-Auction Demand - Bloomberg

Doubled....
 
Nope, not surprised the liberals on this thread think I'm having a discussion about profit taking instead of the state of the macro-economy. News flash, Dad2three, there's plenty money to be made....but my emphasis is about whether Obama's economic policies are good or bad for the 350 million people of our country.

And once again, we clearly see they are NOT.

Yesterday we see that the smart investors with one foot out the door know the easy money party is slowing down...and the foot edges a bit more out the door.

So you see, DaddyO, at some point, it doesn't matter what the Fed does to rates, those bond investors are going to start running for the hills because they know the overall MACRO situation is more and more fucked. China is watching this mess closely I'm sure.

And today? Well, one more example of the fucked situation. All the "experts" expected Unemployment rate to drop to 6.0%.

Ooooops, it went in the wrong direction. It went UP to 6.2%. We keep telling you it's a mess.

What's this mean? It means the state of the labor market is disappointing.

For you slow ones, we're not talking about one metric.....we're talking about the general direction.

What's that mean for the bigger picture? That means growth will be lower for the whole year than the "experts" were hoping for. And that means the 17 trillion in debt can't even manage to award us with more than a 2% growth economy after 6 years of Obama's idiot Keynesian policies.
 
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Well, look at that.

Just like those of us who actually understand the market predicted.

All that artificial driving up of the stock market numbers we kept warning about? Well, we told ya, what goes up, must come down.

And we warned ya that once there were "signs" of an "improving" economy, the crack heads would have to start weening themselves from all that free money pushing up the stock market. Well not free, but with zero interest rates, almost free.

Ooops, in Obama's fucked up Bizzarro World, good economic news is bad news for the stock market.

This is the watershed event. Watch smart investors start to slowly pull out.

We get it. You want to end the Fed.
 
And anyone on here that thinks this is only about Argentina needs to get a big clue fast.
 
Well, look at that.

Just like those of us who actually understand the market predicted.

All that artificial driving up of the stock market numbers we kept warning about? Well, we told ya, what goes up, must come down.

And we warned ya that once there were "signs" of an "improving" economy, the crack heads would have to start weening themselves from all that free money pushing up the stock market. Well not free, but with zero interest rates, almost free.

Ooops, in Obama's fucked up Bizzarro World, good economic news is bad news for the stock market.

This is the watershed event. Watch smart investors start to slowly pull out.

We get it. You want to end the Fed.



Nope, I don't agree with my libertarian brethren on that.
 
Nope, not surprised the liberals on this thread think I'm having a discussion about profit taking instead of the state of the macro-economy. News flash, Dad2three, there's plenty money to be made....but my emphasis is about whether Obama's economic policies are good or bad for the 350 million people of our country.

And once again, we clearly see they are NOT.

Yesterday we see that the smart investors with one foot out the door know the easy money party is slowing down...and the foot edges a bit more out the door.

So you see, DaddyO, at some point, it doesn't matter what the Fed does to rates, those bond investors are going to start running for the hills because they know the overall MACRO situation is more and more fucked. China is watching this mess closely I'm sure.

And today? Well, one more example of the fucked situation. All the "experts" expected Unemployment rate to drop to 6.0%.

Ooooops, it went in the wrong direction. It went UP to 6.2%. We keep telling you it's a mess.

What's this mean? It means the state of the labor market is disappointing.

For you slow ones, we're not talking about one metric.....we're talking about the general direction.

What's that mean for the bigger picture? That means growth will be lower for the whole year than the "experts" were hoping for. And that means the 17 trillion in debt can't even manage to award us with more than a 2% growth economy after 6 years of Obama's idiot Keynesian policies.

You LOVE the word Keynesian without understanding what it is. Got it

ONE POLICY CONSERVATIVES HAVE EVER BEEN ON THE CORRECT SIDE OF HISTORY ON AND ANY POLICY CONSERVATIVES EVER GAVE US THAT WORKED? As promised?


"We crashed the economy but we don't like the way you tried to fix it." - GOP.
 
At some point, I think tapering will have an effect on the market.

Is it now? I don't think so. I bought some more stocks this morning.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe this is the top. Unlikely, but perhaps.
 
15th post
Higher interest. less debt

Just the opposite. Our debt just got more expensive.

Not old debt...it's already locked in...

Please see post #5 in this topic.


If someone is holding "old debt" in an inflationary economy, they are holding the bond equivalent of a $300,000 mortgage in a $150,000 housing market.

Also, if you have a bond that is paying 0.1 percent, and inflation is 3 percent, you're going to lose your ass. So you will be wanting to unload those bonds before that happens to you.

This is what leads to panic selling, which is how bubbles pop.
 
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Well, look at that.

Just like those of us who actually understand the market predicted.

All that artificial driving up of the stock market numbers we kept warning about? Well, we told ya, what goes up, must come down.

And we warned ya that once there were "signs" of an "improving" economy, the crack heads would have to start weening themselves from all that free money pushing up the stock market. Well not free, but with zero interest rates, almost free.

Ooops, in Obama's fucked up Bizzarro World, good economic news is bad news for the stock market.

This is the watershed event. Watch smart investors start to slowly pull out.



you really are an idiot aren't you ?
 
There is no doom and gloom yet, econchick.

Quit acting sophomorically (not an ad hom when correctly applied :lol:) and hysterically.
 
There is no doom and gloom yet, econchick.

Quit acting sophomorically (not an ad hom when correctly applied :lol:) and hysterically.

Here's the thing, Jakey. Someone with as much formal training as I have can see things wayyyy into the future. Those of you who live in the present....well, there's something to be said for that.....I like yoga and Buddhist temples myself....but we visionaries invariably wind up seeing what people like you can't.

So stop being such a tactical thinker, Jake.
 
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