Zone1 Does morality shape religion or does religion shape morality ?

[Tommy Tainant]

Our retreat from Christianity doesn’t mean we’ve lost our sense of morality | Kenan Malik

Those who moan that we’re losing our religion are quick to demonise the most vulnerable

www.theguardian.com

Yet the history of Christianity itself shows that it is not belief in God that defines our moral values but our moral values that shape the way we think about God. Christians (like those of many faiths) once enslaved fellow human beings, burned witches and killed adulterers, believing such practices to have divine sanction. Few Christians today would regard such practices as morally acceptable. Not because God has changed his mind but because humans have.

Collective social struggle – from campaigns to abolish slavery to battles for women’s rights – have been underpinned by moral considerations while becoming also the source of moral development. Such struggles have transformed our moral universe, and in so doing transformed, also, what believers imagine God deems to be good.

I cant see how this can be argued with.The people who campaigned aganst slavery may have been Christians but they were also good people who recognised it as evil.
It was their personal morality rather than any shift in the attitude of the churvh.

Life is generally better now that it was a century,or 2 centuries, back. But that is because we are better people rather than a shift in faith.

You could argue that art is more influential than the church in this.

 

[sealybobo]

Our retreat from Christianity doesn’t mean we’ve lost our sense of morality | Kenan Malik

Those who moan that we’re losing our religion are quick to demonise the most vulnerable

www.theguardian.com

Yet the history of Christianity itself shows that it is not belief in God that defines our moral values but our moral values that shape the way we think about God. Christians (like those of many faiths) once enslaved fellow human beings, burned witches and killed adulterers, believing such practices to have divine sanction. Few Christians today would regard such practices as morally acceptable. Not because God has changed his mind but because humans have.

Collective social struggle – from campaigns to abolish slavery to battles for women’s rights – have been underpinned by moral considerations while becoming also the source of moral development. Such struggles have transformed our moral universe, and in so doing transformed, also, what believers imagine God deems to be good.

I cant see how this can be argued with.The people who campaigned aganst slavery may have been Christians but they were also good people who recognised it as evil.
It was their personal morality rather than any shift in the attitude of the churvh.

Life is generally better now that it was a century,or 2 centuries, back. But that is because we are better people rather than a shift in faith.

You could argue that art is more influential than the church in this.

Good post. I’d say a little of both. But Chicken or egg. First came morality then came religion

 

[Moonglow]

Our retreat from Christianity doesn’t mean we’ve lost our sense of morality | Kenan Malik

Those who moan that we’re losing our religion are quick to demonise the most vulnerable

www.theguardian.com

Yet the history of Christianity itself shows that it is not belief in God that defines our moral values but our moral values that shape the way we think about God. Christians (like those of many faiths) once enslaved fellow human beings, burned witches and killed adulterers, believing such practices to have divine sanction. Few Christians today would regard such practices as morally acceptable. Not because God has changed his mind but because humans have.

Collective social struggle – from campaigns to abolish slavery to battles for women’s rights – have been underpinned by moral considerations while becoming also the source of moral development. Such struggles have transformed our moral universe, and in so doing transformed, also, what believers imagine God deems to be good.

I cant see how this can be argued with.The people who campaigned aganst slavery may have been Christians but they were also good people who recognised it as evil.
It was their personal morality rather than any shift in the attitude of the churvh.

Life is generally better now that it was a century,or 2 centuries, back. But that is because we are better people rather than a shift in faith.

You could argue that art is more influential than the church in this.

No matter which way it does it still doesn't stop humans from being assholes.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Good post. I’d say a little of both. But Chicken or egg. First came morality then came religion

It can be difficult to seperate them.

 

[rampart]

Our retreat from Christianity doesn’t mean we’ve lost our sense of morality | Kenan Malik

Those who moan that we’re losing our religion are quick to demonise the most vulnerable

www.theguardian.com

Yet the history of Christianity itself shows that it is not belief in God that defines our moral values but our moral values that shape the way we think about God. Christians (like those of many faiths) once enslaved fellow human beings, burned witches and killed adulterers, believing such practices to have divine sanction. Few Christians today would regard such practices as morally acceptable. Not because God has changed his mind but because humans have.

Collective social struggle – from campaigns to abolish slavery to battles for women’s rights – have been underpinned by moral considerations while becoming also the source of moral development. Such struggles have transformed our moral universe, and in so doing transformed, also, what believers imagine God deems to be good.

I cant see how this can be argued with.The people who campaigned aganst slavery may have been Christians but they were also good people who recognised it as evil.
It was their personal morality rather than any shift in the attitude of the churvh.

Life is generally better now that it was a century,or 2 centuries, back. But that is because we are better people rather than a shift in faith.

You could argue that art is more influential than the church in this.

i think that morality is as learned a response as anything, but i expect you will be flamed thoroughly on this one.

the fundamentalist dogma is that morality can only stem from a personal relationship with christ and that all athiests are immoral.

reasonable people disagree

 

[Tommy Tainant]

i think that morality is as learned a response as anything, but i expect you will be flamed thoroughly on this one.

the fundamentalist dogma is that morality can only stem from a personal relationship with christ and that all athiests are immoral.

reasonable people disagree

That would mean that atheists cannot be moral people. I dont think that stands up.

 

[Moonglow]

Morality is subjective to the society that exist.

 

[sealybobo]

No matter which way it does it still doesn't stop humans from being assholes.

I’m torn on religion.but I side with it’s a lie and the truth is better than a lie no matter how good the lie makes you feel.

It also depends on how religious? And I don’t just mean how much. How are you religious? The guy from that 70s show just went to prison for rape. He’s a Scientologist. BTK was a Christian. Has your church been politicized? Things like this.

 

[Moonglow]

I’m torn on religion.but I side with it’s a lie and the truth is better than a lie no matter how good the lie makes you feel.

It also depends on how religious? And I don’t just mean how much. How are you religious? The guy from that 70s show just went to prison for rape. He’s a Scientologist. BTK was a Christian. Has your church been politicized? Things like this.

I was raised a Baptist but left it when I found out I didn't believe their schpill anymore because I became aware of the true nature of Christianity and I have studied all religions that exist or have existed to see the pattern of human psychological dependence on religion.

 

[alang1216]

Our retreat from Christianity doesn’t mean we’ve lost our sense of morality | Kenan Malik

Those who moan that we’re losing our religion are quick to demonise the most vulnerable

www.theguardian.com

Yet the history of Christianity itself shows that it is not belief in God that defines our moral values but our moral values that shape the way we think about God. Christians (like those of many faiths) once enslaved fellow human beings, burned witches and killed adulterers, believing such practices to have divine sanction. Few Christians today would regard such practices as morally acceptable. Not because God has changed his mind but because humans have.

Collective social struggle – from campaigns to abolish slavery to battles for women’s rights – have been underpinned by moral considerations while becoming also the source of moral development. Such struggles have transformed our moral universe, and in so doing transformed, also, what believers imagine God deems to be good.

I cant see how this can be argued with.The people who campaigned aganst slavery may have been Christians but they were also good people who recognised it as evil.
It was their personal morality rather than any shift in the attitude of the churvh.

Life is generally better now that it was a century,or 2 centuries, back. But that is because we are better people rather than a shift in faith.

You could argue that art is more influential than the church in this.

The morality of a religion reflects the best morality of the society as whole. There is no absolute morality, it is all relative.

 

[sealybobo]

i think that morality is as learned a response as anything, but i expect you will be flamed thoroughly on this one.

the fundamentalist dogma is that morality can only stem from a personal relationship with christ and that all athiests are immoral.

reasonable people disagree

Think about how America is and always was a Christian nation. At least that’s what they tell us.

They also tell us they were hit when they were kids. All of us have stories of be8ng hit by our parents, right? So we know it was Christian parents who hit their kids. Clearly right?

Today we know hitting children is immoral. Atheist parents today know better than our Christian parents.

 

[sealybobo]

I was raised a Baptist but left it when I found out I didn't believe their schpill anymore because I became aware of the true nature of Christianity and I have studied all religions that exist or have existed to see the pattern of human psychological dependence on religion.

Dude, even I talk to god. I say I’m an agnostic atheist, and I talk to god. Go figure.

He told me he won’t send me to hell for not believ8ng him. I’ll believe him over any preacher.

And I dare any Christian to doubt I talked to the lord, when they all claim he talks to them.

 

[rampart]

It can be difficult to seperate them.

sealybobo this is a "nature vs nurture" question.

i suspect that concepts such as "the golden rule" extend far into the animal kingdom, but were brought by "the3 wise men (the teachings of buddha, confucious, and zoroaster were carried by the caravans of the silk road to christ and to the hellenistic kingdoms of the eastern med.

 

[sealybobo]

sealybobo this is a "nature vs nurture" question.

i suspect that concepts such as "the golden rule" extend far into the animal kingdom, but were brought by "the3 wise men (the teachings of buddha, confucious, and zoroaster were carried by the caravans of the silk road to christ and to the hellenistic kingdoms of the eastern med.

I’m fascinated with two eras of human history. When we started having laws And when we first formalized our languages with alphabets. Way back. Who invented our alphabet? When? We should know this. Fuck Christopher Columbus. And who wrote the first Old Testament? When?

 

[sealybobo]

sealybobo this is a "nature vs nurture" question.

i suspect that concepts such as "the golden rule" extend far into the animal kingdom, but were brought by "the3 wise men (the teachings of buddha, confucious, and zoroaster were carried by the caravans of the silk road to christ and to the hellenistic kingdoms of the eastern med.

I suspect before religion we had laws. You can’t murder. You can’t steal. But even when everyone obeyed the law, society was still fucked up. In walked religion. Religion can police things that aren’t against th3 law. Don’t lie. Dont commit adultry. Things like these things.

 

[Pellinore]

Our retreat from Christianity doesn’t mean we’ve lost our sense of morality | Kenan Malik

Those who moan that we’re losing our religion are quick to demonise the most vulnerable

www.theguardian.com

Yet the history of Christianity itself shows that it is not belief in God that defines our moral values but our moral values that shape the way we think about God. Christians (like those of many faiths) once enslaved fellow human beings, burned witches and killed adulterers, believing such practices to have divine sanction. Few Christians today would regard such practices as morally acceptable. Not because God has changed his mind but because humans have.

Collective social struggle – from campaigns to abolish slavery to battles for women’s rights – have been underpinned by moral considerations while becoming also the source of moral development. Such struggles have transformed our moral universe, and in so doing transformed, also, what believers imagine God deems to be good.

I cant see how this can be argued with.The people who campaigned aganst slavery may have been Christians but they were also good people who recognised it as evil.
It was their personal morality rather than any shift in the attitude of the churvh.

Life is generally better now that it was a century,or 2 centuries, back. But that is because we are better people rather than a shift in faith.

You could argue that art is more influential than the church in this.

Good post.

It has to be morality, right? In the history of man, morality had to exist before religion could. In the course of a life, a child must learn morality before religion, and almost everyone has a sense of morality while many are not religious.

I think of religion as being a manifestation of morality in a sense. It's one thing to say "be kind to others" but making it into a whole story, a whole system of ways to act, and the basis of your entire civilization makes it much more real, much more likely to be ingrained into the people than someone just reciting the line.

The worst parts of religion, and many of the worst moments in history, came about when the religion loses the morality, and the heads of the religion demand a following for its own sake. That, after all, is the basis of our separation of church and state, which I see as an absolute must for a society built to provide equality to people who follow all sorts of religion, or no religion at all.

 

[Dekster]

Our retreat from Christianity doesn’t mean we’ve lost our sense of morality | Kenan Malik

Those who moan that we’re losing our religion are quick to demonise the most vulnerable

www.theguardian.com

Yet the history of Christianity itself shows that it is not belief in God that defines our moral values but our moral values that shape the way we think about God. Christians (like those of many faiths) once enslaved fellow human beings, burned witches and killed adulterers, believing such practices to have divine sanction. Few Christians today would regard such practices as morally acceptable. Not because God has changed his mind but because humans have.

Collective social struggle – from campaigns to abolish slavery to battles for women’s rights – have been underpinned by moral considerations while becoming also the source of moral development. Such struggles have transformed our moral universe, and in so doing transformed, also, what believers imagine God deems to be good.

I cant see how this can be argued with.The people who campaigned aganst slavery may have been Christians but they were also good people who recognised it as evil.
It was their personal morality rather than any shift in the attitude of the churvh.

Life is generally better now that it was a century,or 2 centuries, back. But that is because we are better people rather than a shift in faith.

You could argue that art is more influential than the church in this.

Moral relativism is not new. The same christian out preaching against LGBT folks don't really get their feathers up over adultery or divorce

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Moral relativism is not new. The same christian out preaching against LGBT folks don't really get their feathers up over adultery or divorce

It can be picknmix. The 10 commandmants are the basis for any civil society and a muslim or hindu would have similar moral standards.

 

[badger2]

Our retreat from Christianity doesn’t mean we’ve lost our sense of morality | Kenan Malik

Those who moan that we’re losing our religion are quick to demonise the most vulnerable

www.theguardian.com

Yet the history of Christianity itself shows that it is not belief in God that defines our moral values but our moral values that shape the way we think about God. Christians (like those of many faiths) once enslaved fellow human beings, burned witches and killed adulterers, believing such practices to have divine sanction. Few Christians today would regard such practices as morally acceptable. Not because God has changed his mind but because humans have.

Collective social struggle – from campaigns to abolish slavery to battles for women’s rights – have been underpinned by moral considerations while becoming also the source of moral development. Such struggles have transformed our moral universe, and in so doing transformed, also, what believers imagine God deems to be good.

I cant see how this can be argued with.The people who campaigned aganst slavery may have been Christians but they were also good people who recognised it as evil.
It was their personal morality rather than any shift in the attitude of the churvh.

Life is generally better now that it was a century,or 2 centuries, back. But that is because we are better people rather than a shift in faith.

You could argue that art is more influential than the church in this.

Religion confiscates morality for its own use and glorification. Oz never gave a thing to the Tin Man that he didn't already have.

 

[buttercup]

Moral relativism is not new. The same christian out preaching against LGBT folks don't really get their feathers up over adultery or divorce

That's not moral relativism though. Moral relativism has to do with the nature of morality itself. Moral relativism is the view that morality is relative to either an individual or one's culture.

Also, since you brought it up, the reason why you don't see Christians on the street preaching against those other things is because nearly everyone already knows those other things are wrong... Whereas with LGBT, society has been taught that not only is it not wrong, but it's something to take pride in and celebrate.