Does Bernie Sanders understand his socialism?

[Arianrhod]

I said Marxist when I meant communism. sorry

But socialism is not communism. You want pure communism? Look at First Century Christianity.

Absolutely not. There is a BIG difference.
Pure communism is like the way people lived in the 11th century lol

No, that was feudalism.

See why accurate definitions matter?

 

[TNHarley]

I said Marxist when I meant communism. sorry

But socialism is not communism. You want pure communism? Look at First Century Christianity.

Absolutely not. There is a BIG difference.
Pure communism is like the way people lived in the 11th century lol

No, that was feudalism.

See why accurate definitions matter?

I actually had Indians in my mind when I said that.

 

[Mac1958]

Trying to discuss the merits & weaknesses of socialism and social democracy is a waste of time if we're not all starting with the same definitions.Ain't it?

Please do so, sir.

Okay, here's one definition of socialism that I can agree with:

Socialism is "a social and economic system characterized by social ownership and control of the means of production as well as a political theory and movement that aims at the establishment of such a system". Not just here and there, but at all parts of the society and economy.

I'd say that Democratic Socialism runs roughly half way between regulated capitalism and socialism, where there is increased public ownership and control of some industries, although ownership of means of production and distribution remains primarily with the private sector.

So, those on both ends of the spectrum who claim that we're socialist or nearly socialist, by those standards, are just making stuff up.
.

 

[Siete]

Bernie is as relevant as a fart in a hurricane. I wouldn't give him another thought.

Unless you're a simpleton RW'r looking for some socialist butt to sniff.

 

[mascale]

The fact that the ancients had a better understanding of an arithmetic denominated currency, and its uses, is not a comment on religion. For there to be a religion, there has to be a deity. According to many, there even have to be a lot of deities. The Moses Atrocity, of the educated man from Imperialist Egypt, was demonstrated subjugation in Deuteronomy 23:19-20. No usury apparently, of any kind allowed in Israel, but usury as understood in Matthew 25:14-30, was allowed to be charged to foreigners. Effectively, "Be Fruitful, Multiply, Fill All the Earth: And Screw 'Em" became the first and second and third commandments. Many suggest that when The Catholics became dominant, the Christian princes would rely on the Jews for interest and money-changing, since the Church had appropriated the Old Testament as its own, whereas the Jews were not regarded a part of the Christian nations. Over centuries, anti-Semitism happened. Holocaust eventually happened.

No one seems to pray to the description provided in Deuteronomy, of the "kill everyone immediately" brand of international relations. The fourth commandment could be said, "And leave no evidence," The subjugation method is relatively bloodless. Matthew 25:14-30, shows it works.

There is arithmetic in government, where it also applies. Mohammed, Adam Smith, Karl Marx, John Maynard Keynes--anyone famous at, actually--makes no note of the New Testament stories in Matthew 20:1-16, and Matthew 25:14-30. In the latter, of other religions, the Pythagorean Theorem can be shown to apply. It also applies in governments, worldwide.

"Crow, James Crow: Shaken, Not Stirred!"
(White Eyes even ban ancient custom of Potlatch: On Lands of Many Nations: And as if it mattered(?)!)

 

[Arianrhod]

I said Marxist when I meant communism. sorry

But socialism is not communism. You want pure communism? Look at First Century Christianity.

Absolutely not. There is a BIG difference.
Pure communism is like the way people lived in the 11th century lol

No, that was feudalism.

See why accurate definitions matter?

I actually had Indians in my mind when I said that.

Good point. That's what I get for being Eurocentric.

 

[TNHarley]

I said Marxist when I meant communism. sorry

But socialism is not communism. You want pure communism? Look at First Century Christianity.

Absolutely not. There is a BIG difference.
Pure communism is like the way people lived in the 11th century lol

No, that was feudalism.

See why accurate definitions matter?

I actually had Indians in my mind when I said that.

Good point. That's what I get for being Eurocentric.

lol Oh well. I could have been more clear, myself..

 

[Agit8r]

So he is less socialist than the Scandinavians. So what?

 

[regent]

We should also understand the difference between a socialist economy where the nation's economy is socialized and a socialist program. America has some socialist programs but is basically capitalistic.

 

[Arianrhod]

So he is less socialist than the Scandinavians. So what?

There are people on this board who claim "The Nazis were socialists because their name was National Socialism, duh!"

 

[NoTeaPartyPleez]

As president, Senator Bernie Sanders will:

1. Sign comprehensive immigration reform into law to bring over 11 million undocumented workers out of the shadows. We cannot continue to run an economy where millions are made so vulnerable because of their undocumented status.
2. Oppose tying immigration reform to the building of a border fence. Undocumented workers come to the United States to escape economic hardship and political persecution. Tying reform to unrealistic and unwise border patrol proposals renders the promise illusory for millions seeking legal status.
3. Sign the DREAM Act into law to offer the opportunity of permanent residency and eventual citizenship to young people who were brought to the United States as children. We must recognize the young men and women who comprise the DREAMers for who they are – American kids who deserve the right to legally be in the country they know as home.
4. Expand President Obama’s Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program to include the parents of citizens, parents of legal permanent residents, and the parents of DREAMERs. We need to pursue policies that unites families and does not tear them apart.
5. Authorize and substantially increase funding for the Legal Services Corporation to provide legal representation to guest workers who have been abused by their employers. Further, employers should be required to reimburse guest workers for housing, transportation expenses and workers’ compensation.
6. Substantially increase prevailing wages that employers are required to pay temporary guest workers. If there is a true labor shortage, employers should be offering higher, not lower wages.
7. Rewrite our trade policies to end the race to the bottom and lift the living standards of workers in this country and our trading partners. Not only have free trade agreements like NAFTA and CAFTA hurt U.S. workers, they have been a disaster for small farmers in Mexico and Central America

---------
He likes to throw up Denmark as we could all tell form the debates. Why didn't he mention them when he was spouting his rhetoric about immigration? Is it because they have some of the strictest laws in the world? Imagine that, a democratic socialist country not bending backwords for illegals?
What about Sweden?
Do they actually UNDERSTAND what democratic socialism means and know they cant have immigration like we do?Sweden: Why Socialism and Immigration Clash - The Last Resistance


Jimmie Akesson, the leader of the Sweden Democrats, has a simple explanation for the lack of jobs. “If you allow more asylum seekers into the country than the number of jobs you can create, the result is obvious,” he said in a recent speech. Sweden expects more than 90,000 asylum seekers this year, a huge number in a county of only 10 million people. According to the United Nations, Sweden received the most asylum applications per person in the world from 2009 through 2013. . . . Akesson calls for cutting back on asylum acceptances, requiring immigrants to pass language tests, and trimming immigrants’ welfare benefits.



Immigration To Denmark - Immigration | Laws.com

People who are seeking immigration to Denmark have a high chance of acceptance if they are well educated in respective fields of education and professional studies
So they don't let bottom of the barrel losers in. Why cant they be like Bernie? He wants to legalize criminals.. Why doesn't Denmark do that? Is it because they care about their citizens?
Another snip :
This is because there is a large job shortage in Denmark, and they are looking for immigration to Denmark in order to solve this.
---
LOL imagine that. No one working.. Is it because they tax the fuck out of everyone and they don't have a reason to work? Sorry, I digress..


Why cant people ever be consistent with their bullshit? It is because he is ignorant on his premise, or is it just pandering? If its just pandering, he doesn't care about America the way he says he does..

I think those asylum seekers are people fleeing Syria and Iraq. If you had ISIS in your 'hood you would flee, too. Call me crazy.
On the other hand, Sweden's quality of life is waaaaay beyond the U.S. Ranked number 2 in the world. Call me crazy again."
""2. Sweden
With 0.904 HDI; a Scandinavian country in Northern Europe, it has not participated in any war in almost two centuries. Population is 9.5 million people with 100% literacy. It is technologically advanced with good communication and transportation system. Sweden has an import and export partnerships with USA, Germany, Denmark and Norway. Industries include Iron and steel; Precision equipment; wood pulp and paper; processed foods and motor vehicles. The people lead a high quality of life with its booming real estate market selling affordable and luxurious lands and home."""
11 Countries with Highest Standard of Living - Insider Monkey

Denmark is ranked no. 7:
The 15 Countries With The Highest Quality Of Life
Top Countries On OECD Better Life Index - Business Insider

Cry me a river.

 

[TNHarley]

As president, Senator Bernie Sanders will:

1. Sign comprehensive immigration reform into law to bring over 11 million undocumented workers out of the shadows. We cannot continue to run an economy where millions are made so vulnerable because of their undocumented status.
2. Oppose tying immigration reform to the building of a border fence. Undocumented workers come to the United States to escape economic hardship and political persecution. Tying reform to unrealistic and unwise border patrol proposals renders the promise illusory for millions seeking legal status.
3. Sign the DREAM Act into law to offer the opportunity of permanent residency and eventual citizenship to young people who were brought to the United States as children. We must recognize the young men and women who comprise the DREAMers for who they are – American kids who deserve the right to legally be in the country they know as home.
4. Expand President Obama’s Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program to include the parents of citizens, parents of legal permanent residents, and the parents of DREAMERs. We need to pursue policies that unites families and does not tear them apart.
5. Authorize and substantially increase funding for the Legal Services Corporation to provide legal representation to guest workers who have been abused by their employers. Further, employers should be required to reimburse guest workers for housing, transportation expenses and workers’ compensation.
6. Substantially increase prevailing wages that employers are required to pay temporary guest workers. If there is a true labor shortage, employers should be offering higher, not lower wages.
7. Rewrite our trade policies to end the race to the bottom and lift the living standards of workers in this country and our trading partners. Not only have free trade agreements like NAFTA and CAFTA hurt U.S. workers, they have been a disaster for small farmers in Mexico and Central America

---------
He likes to throw up Denmark as we could all tell form the debates. Why didn't he mention them when he was spouting his rhetoric about immigration? Is it because they have some of the strictest laws in the world? Imagine that, a democratic socialist country not bending backwords for illegals?
What about Sweden?
Do they actually UNDERSTAND what democratic socialism means and know they cant have immigration like we do?Sweden: Why Socialism and Immigration Clash - The Last Resistance


Jimmie Akesson, the leader of the Sweden Democrats, has a simple explanation for the lack of jobs. “If you allow more asylum seekers into the country than the number of jobs you can create, the result is obvious,” he said in a recent speech. Sweden expects more than 90,000 asylum seekers this year, a huge number in a county of only 10 million people. According to the United Nations, Sweden received the most asylum applications per person in the world from 2009 through 2013. . . . Akesson calls for cutting back on asylum acceptances, requiring immigrants to pass language tests, and trimming immigrants’ welfare benefits.



Immigration To Denmark - Immigration | Laws.com

People who are seeking immigration to Denmark have a high chance of acceptance if they are well educated in respective fields of education and professional studies
So they don't let bottom of the barrel losers in. Why cant they be like Bernie? He wants to legalize criminals.. Why doesn't Denmark do that? Is it because they care about their citizens?
Another snip :
This is because there is a large job shortage in Denmark, and they are looking for immigration to Denmark in order to solve this.
---
LOL imagine that. No one working.. Is it because they tax the fuck out of everyone and they don't have a reason to work? Sorry, I digress..


Why cant people ever be consistent with their bullshit? It is because he is ignorant on his premise, or is it just pandering? If its just pandering, he doesn't care about America the way he says he does..

I think those asylum seekers are people fleeing Syria and Iraq. If you had ISIS in your 'hood you would flee, too. Call me crazy.
On the other hand, Sweden's quality of life is waaaaay beyond the U.S. Ranked number 2 in the world. Call me crazy again."
""2. Sweden
With 0.904 HDI; a Scandinavian country in Northern Europe, it has not participated in any war in almost two centuries. Population is 9.5 million people with 100% literacy. It is technologically advanced with good communication and transportation system. Sweden has an import and export partnerships with USA, Germany, Denmark and Norway. Industries include Iron and steel; Precision equipment; wood pulp and paper; processed foods and motor vehicles. The people lead a high quality of life with its booming real estate market selling affordable and luxurious lands and home."""
11 Countries with Highest Standard of Living - Insider Monkey

Denmark is ranked no. 7:
The 15 Countries With The Highest Quality Of Life
Top Countries On OECD Better Life Index - Business Insider

Cry me a river.

I don't blame them but the point stands..
Thanks for comprehending the OP..

 

[regent]

So he is less socialist than the Scandinavians. So what?

There are people on this board who claim "The Nazis were socialists because their name was National Socialism, duh!"

Suppose Hitler had called his programs "The Sweetheart Deal" would that mean it is?
Americans are subjected to advertising and political labels all day long and we should be the most savvy about them, but are we? If Hitler labeled it, it must be true. Would Hitler lie?

 

[Mac1958]

Bernie is as relevant as a fart in a hurricane. I wouldn't give him another thought.

Unless you're a simpleton RW'r looking for some socialist butt to sniff.

The GOP ignores & dismisses the momentum towards social democracy at its peril.
.

 

[Arianrhod]

So he is less socialist than the Scandinavians. So what?

There are people on this board who claim "The Nazis were socialists because their name was National Socialism, duh!"

Suppose Hitler had called his programs "The Sweetheart Deal" would that mean it is?
Americans are subjected to advertising and political labels all day long and we should be the most savvy about them, but are we? If Hitler labeled it, it must be true. Would Hitler lie?

They have to consult with Rush on that.

 

[Agit8r]

So he is less socialist than the Scandinavians. So what?

There are people on this board who claim "The Nazis were socialists because their name was National Socialism, duh!"

Suppose Hitler had called his programs "The Sweetheart Deal" would that mean it is?
Americans are subjected to advertising and political labels all day long and we should be the most savvy about them, but are we? If Hitler labeled it, it must be true. Would Hitler lie?

Yeah, political labels are pretty arbitrary. Over the course of 100 or so years, "Republicans" have become like the old Democratic Party, for instance.

 

[TNHarley]

So he is less socialist than the Scandinavians. So what?

There are people on this board who claim "The Nazis were socialists because their name was National Socialism, duh!"

Suppose Hitler had called his programs "The Sweetheart Deal" would that mean it is?
Americans are subjected to advertising and political labels all day long and we should be the most savvy about them, but are we? If Hitler labeled it, it must be true. Would Hitler lie?

Yeah, political labels are pretty arbitrary. Over the course of 100 or so years, "Republicans" have become like the old Democratic Party, for instance.

I never understood why someone would call themselves a conservative and not give a shit about our constitution.. Little weird, ey?
Of course, that's like the limp wristed Marxists calling themselves liberals. Liberlas appreciate small government and individual liberty..

 

[Disir]

I hope Disir comes and clears all this up

He's actually pro-labor rather than pro-immigration. That's what his track record has been. So, what's the problem?

 

[TNHarley]

I hope Disir comes and clears all this up

He's actually pro-labor rather than pro-immigration. That's what his track record has been. So, what's the problem?

I clearly pointed that out.

 

[Disir]

I hope Disir comes and clears all this up

He's actually pro-labor rather than pro-immigration. That's what his track record has been. So, what's the problem?

I clearly pointed that out.

No. You want to play another round of ideology about someone that you don't know and you don't give a shit about.

Sanders has continuously been against bringing in guest workers. If you don't get these people to come forward or "out of the shadows" then they are at risk for abuse and they will continue to decrease the wages of American workers. That essentially puts those that do the hiring, Democrats and the activists on notice. By telling those that do the hiring that you have to pay these people the same as you do American workers then they have zero incentive to hire them. . If you have been paying attention, it's the same rational behind unionizing. If all of these undocumented workers join unions and get the same rights as American citizens then they don't make much of a profit and it's not worth their while.

Then there are extra penalties:
Authorize and substantially increase funding for the Legal Services Corporation to provide legal representation to guest workers who have been abused by their employers. Further, employers should be required to reimburse guest workers for housing, transportation expenses and workers’ compensation.

And more:

Opposed NAFTA, CAFTA, permanent normal trade relations (PNTR) with China, the TPP, and other free-trade agreements. These deals kill American jobs by shifting work overseas to nations which fail to provide worker protections and pay extremely low wages.

That’s why Bernie has been a strong supporter of the Employee Free Choice Act, which would make it easier for workers to organize and bargain collectively.

In 2008, Sen. Sanders traveled to the tomato fields of southern Florida and met with migrant workers who were paid paltry wages for back-breaking work. After his visit, Sanders invited leaders of the Coalition of Immokalee Workers to come to Washington and testify at a Senate committee hearing where they confronted growers on abusive labor practices. The result in Immokalee, Florida was better working conditions and increased pay.

But how many more Immokalees are out there? How many fields or factories are there where people – often without legal status – are used up and thrown away? We cannot continue to run an economy where millions are made so vulnerable because of their undocumented status.

Many in the business community have argued for a massive expansion of temporary guest worker programs as the answer to the immigration issue. That is not the answer. As the Southern Poverty Law Center has documented, guest workers are routinely cheated out of wages, held virtually captive by employers who seize their documents, forced to live in inhumane conditions and denied medical treatment for on-the-job injuries.

What he will not do is demonize the powerless. He will go after those that have the power. That is the primary difference between many on the right who operate on the if you terrorize them then they will leave on their own method and Sanders.

Bernie Sanders has spoken a lot about how the trade policies have done damage not just to the US but to other countries. He has also been very vocal about the disaster that we call the IMF. It puts the Democrats and the Republicans on notice. You cannot go into another country and wreak havoc that benefits no one but those at the top and not expect people to try to leave the country or for their to be an increase in violence. This is the world that the trade policies and the IMF in combination with the World Bank has created. It does not serve the people.

All of these issues are connected.