S
Sandy73
Guest
-=d=- said:Please don't...
I don't want to have to go thru and prune all her replies from this thread.
Damn, ok I will behave on this thread ! Only for you =d=...
Do you 'want' anyone to go to hell?
- Thread starter dmp
- Start date
Damn, ok I will behave on this thread ! Only for you =d=...
Hobbit
Senior Member
Ok, it's time for Father Hobbit to come down and answer the theological questions of the day.
First, ask yourself this question, "If you died right now, do you think you would go to Heaven? How sure are you of your answer (%)?" Think about your answer a minute.
Now, ask yourself another question, "If you died right now, and you were standing before God, and he asked you, 'Why should I let you into Heaven?' what would you say?"
Well, many people I have run across, other than those I go to church with, have said yes, somewhere between 70% and 90%, and 'because I'm a good person and tried to do good things.'
This is the first misconception about Heaven. Heaven is not a wage to be earned. It is a gift. It's like a birthday present. You didn't do anything on your birthday, your mom did, yet you get all the presents (btw, thank your mom on your next b-day). Heaven is like this. Somebody else did all the work, and you get the reward.
The next misconception is the idea of salvation through works. It all boils down to one thing, sin. Sin is, by definition, not holy or pure, and God, a perfect being, cannot directly associate with the impure, and no matter how much you dilute your sin with good works, the sin is still there, much like a cup of poison diluted in a gallon of water is still poisonous. No matter how good you are, you cannot save yourself any more than you can leap across the Grand Canyon. Sure, a few people will get farther than others, but nobody will make it. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." That means everybody.
Enter Jesus. Back to the birthday analysis, Jesus is the one who did all the work. Jesus gave up his divinity to become a human being. He shared in our sufferings and came to associate himself with the more miserable aspects of human life. This meant that God was better able to deal with our sufferings, since he had felt them himself. The end result of this was the salvation of man. Jesus did what we could not, and that is to live a sinless life. Until that time, a perfect lamb had to be sacrificed for every sin, but Jesus was the lamb of God, and as a perfect human being, he could be sacrificed for our entire race. So it was that, while hanging on the cross, dying a painful death, Jesus, in one horrific moment took the sin, pain, and evil of the entire world upon himself at once. He and God were torn apart in that moment, causing Jesus more emotional and spiritual pain than we can imagine. Then, Jesus uttered his final words before death, "It is done." With those words, our sins died with him.
There's only one problem left, free will. God gave us all free will, so we must choose whether or not to allow Jesus to take away our sins. All one must do is ask. It's that easy. One quick prayer and Jesus will take away all sin, making you pure again and allowing you to associate with the almighty God. It doesn't matter how bad a person you are. In fact, the first person to have his sins forgiven by Jesus was a robber on the cross, a man fully deserving of his punishment.
Now, about people being judged by their deeds: All good deeds are overridden by any sin. Jesus eliminates sin. Therefore, it is those who accept Jesus who are given a good judgement.
Now, to answer the eternal question of why God 'sends people to Hell,' I bring you an excerpt from the New Testament, paraphrased.
The prince of a great land was to be married, so the king sent invitations to all the nobles in his realm, inviting them and their houses to the marriage supper, but many of the nobles said they could not attend. The prince became a little frustrated and said, "Perhaps they did not understand the invitations. Send your servants to explain and perhaps they will understand." So the king sent his servants to the different nobles, but they weren't treated kindly. Many nobles saw the insistance of the servants as an insult and had them beaten. Many others accused them as spies and executed them. When the surviving servants returned, the king was outraged. "Mobilize my armies," he said, "and lay seige to the cities of these men. Let not one of those cities stand." And so it was that the armies of the king went forth and destroyed the cities of the evil nobles, burning them to the ground. However, he was left with one problem. Now there weren't enough people for the party. So the king sent his servants into the streets to gather the common folk and invite them to the wedding. He also instructed the seamstress to make wedding outfits for those who did not have them, yet some of the guests refused the outfits, saying, "If these clothes were good enough when I was invited, they're good enough now." The king confronted these men, saying, "I invite you into my home to attend my son's wedding and all I ask is that you wear the outfit that I give you, yet you can't even do that?" Outraged, the king had all those who did not wear a gown to be cast out of the palace.
In this parable, the wedding supper is Heaven. It is believed that the nobles represent the Jews, while the common people represent the Gentiles, though the main point is that the other people are us. God has invited us to come to heaven and asks nothing in return other than acceptance of his son. It is we who turn down the invitation, sending ourselves to Hell.
I hope this has shed some light on the subject. Have fun.
First, ask yourself this question, "If you died right now, do you think you would go to Heaven? How sure are you of your answer (%)?" Think about your answer a minute.
Now, ask yourself another question, "If you died right now, and you were standing before God, and he asked you, 'Why should I let you into Heaven?' what would you say?"
Well, many people I have run across, other than those I go to church with, have said yes, somewhere between 70% and 90%, and 'because I'm a good person and tried to do good things.'
This is the first misconception about Heaven. Heaven is not a wage to be earned. It is a gift. It's like a birthday present. You didn't do anything on your birthday, your mom did, yet you get all the presents (btw, thank your mom on your next b-day). Heaven is like this. Somebody else did all the work, and you get the reward.
The next misconception is the idea of salvation through works. It all boils down to one thing, sin. Sin is, by definition, not holy or pure, and God, a perfect being, cannot directly associate with the impure, and no matter how much you dilute your sin with good works, the sin is still there, much like a cup of poison diluted in a gallon of water is still poisonous. No matter how good you are, you cannot save yourself any more than you can leap across the Grand Canyon. Sure, a few people will get farther than others, but nobody will make it. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." That means everybody.
Enter Jesus. Back to the birthday analysis, Jesus is the one who did all the work. Jesus gave up his divinity to become a human being. He shared in our sufferings and came to associate himself with the more miserable aspects of human life. This meant that God was better able to deal with our sufferings, since he had felt them himself. The end result of this was the salvation of man. Jesus did what we could not, and that is to live a sinless life. Until that time, a perfect lamb had to be sacrificed for every sin, but Jesus was the lamb of God, and as a perfect human being, he could be sacrificed for our entire race. So it was that, while hanging on the cross, dying a painful death, Jesus, in one horrific moment took the sin, pain, and evil of the entire world upon himself at once. He and God were torn apart in that moment, causing Jesus more emotional and spiritual pain than we can imagine. Then, Jesus uttered his final words before death, "It is done." With those words, our sins died with him.
There's only one problem left, free will. God gave us all free will, so we must choose whether or not to allow Jesus to take away our sins. All one must do is ask. It's that easy. One quick prayer and Jesus will take away all sin, making you pure again and allowing you to associate with the almighty God. It doesn't matter how bad a person you are. In fact, the first person to have his sins forgiven by Jesus was a robber on the cross, a man fully deserving of his punishment.
Now, about people being judged by their deeds: All good deeds are overridden by any sin. Jesus eliminates sin. Therefore, it is those who accept Jesus who are given a good judgement.
Now, to answer the eternal question of why God 'sends people to Hell,' I bring you an excerpt from the New Testament, paraphrased.
The prince of a great land was to be married, so the king sent invitations to all the nobles in his realm, inviting them and their houses to the marriage supper, but many of the nobles said they could not attend. The prince became a little frustrated and said, "Perhaps they did not understand the invitations. Send your servants to explain and perhaps they will understand." So the king sent his servants to the different nobles, but they weren't treated kindly. Many nobles saw the insistance of the servants as an insult and had them beaten. Many others accused them as spies and executed them. When the surviving servants returned, the king was outraged. "Mobilize my armies," he said, "and lay seige to the cities of these men. Let not one of those cities stand." And so it was that the armies of the king went forth and destroyed the cities of the evil nobles, burning them to the ground. However, he was left with one problem. Now there weren't enough people for the party. So the king sent his servants into the streets to gather the common folk and invite them to the wedding. He also instructed the seamstress to make wedding outfits for those who did not have them, yet some of the guests refused the outfits, saying, "If these clothes were good enough when I was invited, they're good enough now." The king confronted these men, saying, "I invite you into my home to attend my son's wedding and all I ask is that you wear the outfit that I give you, yet you can't even do that?" Outraged, the king had all those who did not wear a gown to be cast out of the palace.
In this parable, the wedding supper is Heaven. It is believed that the nobles represent the Jews, while the common people represent the Gentiles, though the main point is that the other people are us. God has invited us to come to heaven and asks nothing in return other than acceptance of his son. It is we who turn down the invitation, sending ourselves to Hell.
I hope this has shed some light on the subject. Have fun.
Eightball
Senior Member
- Oct 13, 2004
- 1,359
- 253
- 48
-=d=- said:
Very true indeed! Salvation was not because one did deeds that pleased God, but that one had faith in God.
Abraham was justified by God, because of his faith not because of his deeds. His deeds were an expression of his faith that was from the heart. Deeds that are an expression of trying to make God like us, or to please God so that we avoid punishment are what the "goats" had in common.
Regards, Eightballsidepocket
W
White knight
Guest
Can you sin in heaven? Can you get rich in heaven? Do you have to share everthing evenly? How do you profit in heaven?
Hobbit
Senior Member
White knight said:
No, I don't know, I don't know, and I don't know.
All I know about heaven is that being in the presense of God without Satan there to screw things up will prevent sin. Everything else is purely speculatory, other than the fact that it's too awesome to be described with mere words.
5stringJeff
Senior Member
-Cp said:
Didn't want to quote the whole thing. I do want to respond but I don't have time right now. But, two quick things.
1. Your theology is skewed, I think, from what the Bible teaches. I will go into depth on this when I reply. But the Bible clearly teaches that some people will go to heaven for eternity, and some will go to hell for eternity.
2. The style of writing in your two posts varies. Do you have a
to anything that's not originally yours?-=d=- said:David Duke? Hitler? Al Sharpton? All of them racists, one of them a mass-murderer. Ted Bundy...Ted Kennedy - all killers...but do Christians really 'want' some people to go to hell?
I personally do NOT...It'd be my hope that ANY Of those vile men would come to Christ and experience forgiveness.
Especially Mr. Sharpton.
I'm not a believer in religious tradition so I think it is fair for me to ask this: I know the typical conception of hell and heaven, but is that really what people think or is it a more personalized thing? I mean, the burning fires of hell, and the pie in the sky where everybody (who isnt in hell) who's ever lived is up there floating around in long robes......maybe if someone could explain this to me I might even join up.
dilloduck
Diamond Member
Heaven and hell are some of the concepts devised by man to assist him in his denial of the death of the self (ego). Death itself is the reward of life . Suffering exists because man cannot see himself as one with "god" already. Ignorance is hell. Clinging to worldly possessions and concepts causes suffering because one discovers that these are incapable of protecting him from what is to be. By reading the Bible carefully, one can see that these concepts are also incorporated there. Naturally this is simply my opinion.
dilloduck said:
I kinda liked this interpretation.....and maybe its sort of what I feel too, sometimes opposing views come out having alot of commonality on the far ends, like coming full circle. I think often of how these "values" :suffering, ignorance, greed, are so much of our daily routine, and wonder what it is all about. I dont have any answers....
Said1
Gold Member
dilloduck said:
I don't necessarily think one has to die to catch a glimpse of perfect knowledge. Make sense? Probably not.
JOKER96BRAVO
Senior Member
- Aug 13, 2004
- 4,433
- 290
- 48
The following is supposedly an actual question given on a University of
Washington chemistry mid-term. The answer by one student was so "profound"
that the professor shared it with colleagues, via the Internet, which is, of course,
why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well.
Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs
heat)?
Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools
when it expands and heats when it is compressed) or some variant.
One student, however, wrote the following:
First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to
know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell, and the rate at which they are
leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not
leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving.
As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that
exist in the world today. Most of these religions state that if you are not a
member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these
religions, and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can
project that all souls go to Hell.
With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell
to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in
Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in
Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls
are added.
This gives two possibilities:
1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell,
then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.
2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the
temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.
So which is it?
If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year
that, "it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you," and take into account
the fact that I slept with her last night, then number 2 must be true, and thus I
am sure that Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over. The corollary of this
theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any
more souls and is, therefore, extinct...leaving only Heaven, thereby proving the
existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Teresa kept
shouting "Oh my God."
THIS STUDENT RECEIVED THE ONLY "A
Washington chemistry mid-term. The answer by one student was so "profound"
that the professor shared it with colleagues, via the Internet, which is, of course,
why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well.
Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs
heat)?
Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools
when it expands and heats when it is compressed) or some variant.
One student, however, wrote the following:
First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to
know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell, and the rate at which they are
leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not
leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving.
As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that
exist in the world today. Most of these religions state that if you are not a
member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these
religions, and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can
project that all souls go to Hell.
With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell
to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in
Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in
Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls
are added.
This gives two possibilities:
1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell,
then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.
2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the
temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.
So which is it?
If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year
that, "it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you," and take into account
the fact that I slept with her last night, then number 2 must be true, and thus I
am sure that Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over. The corollary of this
theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any
more souls and is, therefore, extinct...leaving only Heaven, thereby proving the
existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Teresa kept
shouting "Oh my God."
THIS STUDENT RECEIVED THE ONLY "A
dilloduck
Diamond Member
Said1 said:
LOTS of sense-----I would imagine jesus did it.
Said1
Gold Member
dilloduck said:
Exaclty.
-=d=- said:David Duke? Hitler? Al Sharpton? All of them racists, one of them a mass-murderer. Ted Bundy...Ted Kennedy - all killers...but do Christians really 'want' some people to go to hell?
I personally do NOT...It'd be my hope that ANY Of those vile men would come to Christ and experience forgiveness.
Especially Mr. Sharpton.
No becasue Hell is so horrible that I could never wish that on another soul. I do pray for souls to be enlightened as well as for my own daily. We are all on the same team, we just don't know it.
Said1
Gold Member
dilloduck said:
I don't think you need to be the son of God either.
manu1959
Left Coast Isolationist
if you belive in destiny and gods plan for all souls placed on this earth and you belive that god is a kind and gentle god that tends his flock then all souls will be saved and enter heaven
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