Do you remember Vietnam on TV?

[JakeStarkey]

Your ignorance is showing again and you always seem to save it for a thread like this- Cabot lodge ( chosen personally by jfk) as ambassador, got deim assassinated, his hands are bloody as hell, deim and he knocked heads because, lodge wanted him to run the country like a western democracy , deim told him that would not work, Kennedy chose to accept his advice in the end and let deim go down, any , any chance of the south remaining free from the north died right there.

Trajan, are you willfully ignorant or do you it because you are stupid? Nothing you wrote supercedes an iota of "The pragmatic Cold Warrior, Kennedy, increased that assistance, supported the development of Spec Ops, and widened the American involvement." Diem's removal was part of American planning and operations. Are you a fool by choice?

Being called ignorant by you is actually a compliment IMHO. Thx.

The deim removal was a disaster, the reasoning behind his assassination went down as I described, we did not plan it and the nod was last minute and reluctant, but to rfks credit he advised against it, stop googling and pick up a few books.

You need to study the subject. Do you want a good reading list before you reveal your ass again?

 

[midcan5]

Hi Midcan5

Thanks for your comment and clips they are really interesting!
Now that the Rambo movies ect have all become part of the past do you think peoples perception of the war will start to change through youtube ect? How do you think future generations in the Western world should remember Vietnam?

I started to answer another of your questions before I read this one, so below === is a comment on changing attitudes - a tongue in cheek rant.

As for how they 'should' remember it, that is a tough question. How do we manage power when power is often afraid. Probably a honest and frank appraisal of history is one way. What works best. Some recent involvements worked to lessen the carnage and advance or give the people some chance to figure it out. Not to excuse dumb policy, but history has to be seen in the perspective of the time. While it is a slow and uneven process, even social change evolves. How the idea that we all in this together is eventually embedded in the thought process of humanity is the dream of dreamers. The golden rule has been around a long time and sometimes dreams work. (I have to think more on this.)

===

This may sound jingoistic, a bit tongue in cheek, I once asked if an American would buy an al-Qaeda made car. 'Are you kidding me!' Then why do you have a Semper Fi sticker on your Japanese car? The oddest, or is that complex sun shield I have ever seen was a Iwo Jima 'raising the flag' graphic on a Suzuki SUV. I have seen Disabled Vet licence plates on Japanese cars, saw one yesterday. So will the image of Vietnam change, of course, and Americans aren't even the forgiving Amish. (Although these shows on the Amish today contradict that image) Marketing has great power. Time too. Clothing made in Vietnam is available in Macy's now. When I first saw that I thought of a nerdy friend in HS, he finally had a serious girlfriend, died in Nam.

Marketing is a marvelous thing, during a NASCAR race this past summer a minister thanked Toyota among other dignitaries, even that guy high up in the sky. But Japan is smart, they build here, have nice ads, fair prices and they support their businesses in all areas. Americans on the other hand are so warped today they hate the fact an American company was helped by their own government. Rich Americans buy Lexus or Infinity for status, symbols. America ain't good enough for them. Instant ego builders? Reagan's fabled Cadillac mom would now drive a Lexus. With the draft gone attitudes will change even more as experience, or even the potential of experience disappears, war becomes business, maybe all of life is just business we just think it something else. So to answer, one day a fancy car made in Vietnam will race in nascar and be praised by a minister and maybe even make Lexus look like a poor person's only choice.

now if the liberal kennedy hadn't started the war and the liberal johnson escalated it, we wouldn't have had this mess.

Ideas have more power than people assume. You forget Nam engagement started long before Johnson. Truman and even Eisenhower were involved. History isn't so simple. You also forget the Cold War and the McCarthy era of American politics. Were you opposed to Iraq? It made less sense than Nam given the different time frames. And yet lots supported Iraq which could easily be classified as an illegal invasion. Communism became Terrorism. It is a sign of the times that Americans do not know their own history nor understand the factors that affect that history. It may always be that way for the writers of history are often motivated by ideology, and those who follow them fail to see the complexity, they assume they know something they don't.

 

[Warrior102]

The thing I remember most about the CBS newscasts about the Vietnam war was the body counts.

I too remember that.

I also remember the nightly "Body Counts" when GW Bush was in office.
That stopped when the Draftdodging Chickenhawk Warmonger King Obama was selected.

 

[Oldguy]

I respected Cronkite, because you were supposed to; hell, everyone did. There was no other version of the news.

I guess I wanted to hear the news the way he presented it too. After all, like most guys my age, I carried a 2"x 3" card in my wallet that said 1-A.

As was said, most of the film was helicopters and USO shows. The things that stick out were still photos.

The thing I remember most about the CBS newscasts about the Vietnam war was the body counts. The broadcasts were always emphasizing that US troops were killing a lot more of the enemy than the casualties being inflicted on US forces. I think that the ratio was something like 5 or 10 to 1 ( 5 or 10 enemy troops killed for each US soldier killed). The body count ratios stayed that way until we lost the war.

I wouldn't put a whole lot of faith in those body count numbers. I was present when an Orangutang, a pig and a civilian unlucky enough to walk into a mechanical ambush were claimed as VC KIA's. And, a dog which also hit an MA was claimed as 2 KIA's (4 legs, you see).

 

[Trajan]

Trajan, are you willfully ignorant or do you it because you are stupid? Nothing you wrote supercedes an iota of "The pragmatic Cold Warrior, Kennedy, increased that assistance, supported the development of Spec Ops, and widened the American involvement." Diem's removal was part of American planning and operations. Are you a fool by choice?

Being called ignorant by you is actually a compliment IMHO. Thx.

The deim removal was a disaster, the reasoning behind his assassination went down as I described, we did not plan it and the nod was last minute and reluctant, but to rfks credit he advised against it, stop googling and pick up a few books.

You need to study the subject. Do you want a good reading list before you reveal your ass again?

bring it on.

 

[Trajan]

Hi Midcan5

Thanks for your comment and clips they are really interesting!
Now that the Rambo movies ect have all become part of the past do you think peoples perception of the war will start to change through youtube ect? How do you think future generations in the Western world should remember Vietnam?

I started to answer another of your questions before I read this one, so below === is a comment on changing attitudes - a tongue in cheek rant.

As for how they 'should' remember it, that is a tough question. How do we manage power when power is often afraid. Probably a honest and frank appraisal of history is one way. What works best. Some recent involvements worked to lessen the carnage and advance or give the people some chance to figure it out. Not to excuse dumb policy, but history has to be seen in the perspective of the time. While it is a slow and uneven process, even social change evolves. How the idea that we all in this together is eventually embedded in the thought process of humanity is the dream of dreamers. The golden rule has been around a long time and sometimes dreams work. (I have to think more on this.)

===

This may sound jingoistic, a bit tongue in cheek, I once asked if an American would buy an al-Qaeda made car. 'Are you kidding me!' Then why do you have a Semper Fi sticker on your Japanese car? The oddest, or is that complex sun shield I have ever seen was a Iwo Jima 'raising the flag' graphic on a Suzuki SUV. I have seen Disabled Vet licence plates on Japanese cars, saw one yesterday. So will the image of Vietnam change, of course, and Americans aren't even the forgiving Amish. (Although these shows on the Amish today contradict that image) Marketing has great power. Time too. Clothing made in Vietnam is available in Macy's now. When I first saw that I thought of a nerdy friend in HS, he finally had a serious girlfriend, died in Nam.

Marketing is a marvelous thing, during a NASCAR race this past summer a minister thanked Toyota among other dignitaries, even that guy high up in the sky. But Japan is smart, they build here, have nice ads, fair prices and they support their businesses in all areas. Americans on the other hand are so warped today they hate the fact an American company was helped by their own government. Rich Americans buy Lexus or Infinity for status, symbols. America ain't good enough for them. Instant ego builders? Reagan's fabled Cadillac mom would now drive a Lexus. With the draft gone attitudes will change even more as experience, or even the potential of experience disappears, war becomes business, maybe all of life is just business we just think it something else. So to answer, one day a fancy car made in Vietnam will race in nascar and be praised by a minister and maybe even make Lexus look like a poor person's only choice.

now if the liberal kennedy hadn't started the war and the liberal johnson escalated it, we wouldn't have had this mess.

Ideas have more power than people assume. You forget Nam engagement started long before Johnson. Truman and even Eisenhower were involved. History isn't so simple. You also forget the Cold War and the McCarthy era of American politics. Were you opposed to Iraq? It made less sense than Nam given the different time frames. And yet lots supported Iraq which could easily be classified as an illegal invasion. Communism became Terrorism. It is a sign of the times that Americans do not know their own history nor understand the factors that affect that history. It may always be that way for the writers of history are often motivated by ideology, and those who follow them fail to see the complexity, they assume they know something they don't.

I see your last paragraph as a not so clever attmept at exonerating in part the Democrats who got us into Vietnam with both feet by hooking in Ike as a sort of co-conspirator for political cover....thats not going to work, Eisenhower was literally begged almost on knees by the French gov. to enact Operation Vulture, ( please google it since its obviously a surprise to you and I am sure jake who don't appear to have read books on the era or topic) which he refused ostensibly becasue the UK backed out, but he already knew they would, so he never really was even considering it.

 

[Rossuk]

Hi Konradv

Thanks again for your reply! I have not used one of these chat forums before but I think this topic has really opened my eyes to how much the war is still on peoples minds in America. It sounds like these records of what happened to you are an invaluable piece of your past.

For my essay I am putting together a collection of photographs with captions about what they mean to the person who owns them now. The reason we have been given the Vietnam war as a topic is because my university holds the archives for Stanley Kubrics’s- Full Metal Jacket and Philip Jones Griffiths -Vietnam INC. My college is going to archive our essays for future generations to see. I was wondering if I could contact you via email about some the photos you have saved?

Thanks Ross

 

[usmcstinger]

Check stinger's source. The stories behind the pictures that defined the Vietnam War
Gerard Jackson (economic editor)
BrookesNews.Com
Monday 28 January 2008
http://brookesnews.com/index.html Trail leads nowhere.

Stinger's final paragraph needs better sourcing.

I added 2 more sources. Obviously, you never did any research in regard to the photos. You just accepted the left wing lies. The only thing you know about Combat in Vietnam is you never experienced it.

You act like a child because I chided you on the poor sourcing? Really?? It's your job, stinger, not mine to make your narrative. GTFU.

I am a Vietnam Combat Vet who is sick and tired of people like you who continue to perpetuate the myths of the War. KMFA.

 

[Warrior102]

For my essay I am putting together a collection of photographs with captions about what they mean to the person who owns them now. The reason we have been given the Vietnam war as a topic is because my university holds the archives for Stanley Kubrics’s- Full Metal Jacket and Philip Jones Griffiths -Vietnam INC. My college is going to archive our essays for future generations to see. I was wondering if I could contact you via email about some the photos you have saved?

Make sure to include the usual Liberal BS "we lost the war" in your essay, assfucker.

 

[usmcstinger]

When I think about Viet Nam these are the images that come to mind.

View attachment 23736 View attachment 23737 View attachment 23738

Click picture for larger version.

Do you know truth about the last 2 pictures? Read the link below.
The stories behind the pictures that defined the Vietnam War
In taking that picture," Adams later told Parade magazine, "I had destroyed [Loan's] life. For General Loan had become a man condemned both in his country and in America because he had killed an enemy in war. People do this all the time in war, but rarely is a photographer there to record the act."
Adams accepted Loan's explanation that the man he shot was a Viet Cong captain who had murdered several civilians.
Years later, when Loan, who lost a leg during the war, was running a pizza parlor in suburban Washington, D.C., Adams visited him.
"He told me, 'You were doing your job, and I was doing mine,' " Adams told Parade.
Despite efforts to deport him, Loan lived out his life in Virginia, dying of cancer in 1998. "Photographs, you know, they're half-truths," Adams said a day after Loan's death.
Often asked if he had it to do over, the photographer said: "If it happened again, I'd probably take the picture again -- it's my job."


As Nick Ut, the man who snapped this Pulitzer Prize winning photo, said: “If the Communists had only stayed in North Vietnam” he said,“this never would have happened.” But our leftwing journalists’ Orwellian memory effectively filtered out Ut’s observation, leaving the picture to speak not for the victims of communism but for the left.
Despite the photo’s insinuations and claims by the left, these children were not victims of an American napalm attack. North Vietnamese troops and some Viet Cong units had launched an attack on Trang Bang, successfully cutting the road that ran through the village, forcing South Vietnamese troops to launch a counter attack. The use of napalm was delayed until the third day of the battle so as to give civilians a chance to escape the battle zone.The Historic ‘Napalm Girl’ Pulitzer Image Marks Its 40th Anniversary - ABC News
Nick Ut’s Iconic Napalm Girl Photo | Photo This & That

Loan should have shot the photographer

Cronkite should be buried near Hanoi

Morley Safer's failure to tell the truth about the the destruction Cam Ne earns him a burial plot next to Cronkite.

 

[konradv]

Do you know truth about the last 2 pictures? Read the link below.
The stories behind the pictures that defined the Vietnam War
In taking that picture," Adams later told Parade magazine, "I had destroyed [Loan's] life. For General Loan had become a man condemned both in his country and in America because he had killed an enemy in war. People do this all the time in war, but rarely is a photographer there to record the act."
Adams accepted Loan's explanation that the man he shot was a Viet Cong captain who had murdered several civilians.
Years later, when Loan, who lost a leg during the war, was running a pizza parlor in suburban Washington, D.C., Adams visited him.
"He told me, 'You were doing your job, and I was doing mine,' " Adams told Parade.
Despite efforts to deport him, Loan lived out his life in Virginia, dying of cancer in 1998. "Photographs, you know, they're half-truths," Adams said a day after Loan's death.
Often asked if he had it to do over, the photographer said: "If it happened again, I'd probably take the picture again -- it's my job."


As Nick Ut, the man who snapped this Pulitzer Prize winning photo, said: “If the Communists had only stayed in North Vietnam” he said,“this never would have happened.” But our leftwing journalists’ Orwellian memory effectively filtered out Ut’s observation, leaving the picture to speak not for the victims of communism but for the left.
Despite the photo’s insinuations and claims by the left, these children were not victims of an American napalm attack. North Vietnamese troops and some Viet Cong units had launched an attack on Trang Bang, successfully cutting the road that ran through the village, forcing South Vietnamese troops to launch a counter attack. The use of napalm was delayed until the third day of the battle so as to give civilians a chance to escape the battle zone.The Historic ‘Napalm Girl’ Pulitzer Image Marks Its 40th Anniversary - ABC News
Nick Ut’s Iconic Napalm Girl Photo | Photo This & That

Loan should have shot the photographer

Cronkite should be buried near Hanoi

Morley Safer's failure to tell the truth about the the destruction Cam Ne earns him a burial plot next to Cronkite.

I think you're missing the point that this was a war we shouldn't have gotten into in the first place. The right thing to do would have been to allow the plebiscite and let the people decide on whether they wanted a unified country. Failure top do so is what led to 50,000+ American and millions of Viet Namese deaths.

 

[usmcstinger]

Loan should have shot the photographer

Cronkite should be buried near Hanoi

Morley Safer's failure to tell the truth about the the destruction Cam Ne earns him a burial plot next to Cronkite.

I think you're missing the point that this was a war we shouldn't have gotten into in the first place. The right thing to do would have been to allow the plebiscite and let the people decide on whether they wanted a unified country. Failure top do so is what led to 50,000+ American and millions of Viet Namese deaths.

A Communist Plebiscite? You know nothing about the Communist North. The Communist North would have invaded South Vietnam and taken full control. Just like they did in 1975.

Do some research before you comment on something you know very little about.

 

[konradv]

Morley Safer's failure to tell the truth about the the destruction Cam Ne earns him a burial plot next to Cronkite.

I think you're missing the point that this was a war we shouldn't have gotten into in the first place. The right thing to do would have been to allow the plebiscite and let the people decide on whether they wanted a unified country. Failure top do so is what led to 50,000+ American and millions of Viet Namese deaths.

A Communist Plebiscite? You know nothing about the Communist North. The Communist North would have invaded South Vietnam and taken full control. Just like they did in 1975.

Do some research before you comment on something you know very little about.

The plebiscite was to be held in the south. You don't seem to know much about the history. We would have been on the side of democracy, but decided not to let the people have their say.

 

[Oldguy]

I think you're missing the point that this was a war we shouldn't have gotten into in the first place. The right thing to do would have been to allow the plebiscite and let the people decide on whether they wanted a unified country. Failure top do so is what led to 50,000+ American and millions of Viet Namese deaths.

A Communist Plebiscite? You know nothing about the Communist North. The Communist North would have invaded South Vietnam and taken full control. Just like they did in 1975.

Do some research before you comment on something you know very little about.

The plebiscite was to be held in the south. You don't seem to know much about the history. We would have been on the side of democracy, but decided not to let the people have their say.

Instead of allowing the plebiscite, we installed Diem as head of the new "anti-Communist" country we created out of thin air and the rest, as they say, was history.

 

[konradv]

A Communist Plebiscite? You know nothing about the Communist North. The Communist North would have invaded South Vietnam and taken full control. Just like they did in 1975.

Do some research before you comment on something you know very little about.

The plebiscite was to be held in the south. You don't seem to know much about the history. We would have been on the side of democracy, but decided not to let the people have their say.

Instead of allowing the plebiscite, we installed Diem as head of the new "anti-Communist" country we created out of thin air and the rest, as they say, was history.

Diem was also more interested in preserving his own power than fighting Communists. That meant preserving the army as much as possible and staffing it with cronies that would keep him in power. Any commander who lost too many men was sacked, so his officers played it safe and did as little fighting as possible.

 

[Rossuk]

Hi Konradv

Thanks again for your reply! I have not used one of these chat forums before but I think this topic has really opened my eyes to how much the war is still on peoples minds in America. It sounds like these records of what happened to you are an invaluable piece of your past.

For my essay I am putting together a collection of photographs with captions about what they mean to the person who owns them now. The reason we have been given the Vietnam war as a topic is because my university holds the archives for Stanley Kubrics’s- Full Metal Jacket and Philip Jones Griffiths -Vietnam INC. My college is going to archive our essays for future generations to see. I was wondering if I could contact you via email about some the photos you have saved?

Thanks Ross

 

[Rossuk]

Hi Midcan 5
I have not used one of these chat forums before but I think this topic has really opened my eyes to how much the war is still on peoples minds in America.

For my essay I am putting together a collection of photographs with captions about what they mean to the person who owns them now. The reason we have been given the Vietnam war as a topic is because my university holds the archives for Stanley Kubrics’s- Full Metal Jacket and Philip Jones Griffiths -Vietnam INC. My college is going to archive our essays for future generations to see. I was wondering if I could contact you via email about some the photos you have saved?

Thanks Ross

 

[Trajan]

The plebiscite was to be held in the south. You don't seem to know much about the history. We would have been on the side of democracy, but decided not to let the people have their say.

Instead of allowing the plebiscite, we installed Diem as head of the new "anti-Communist" country we created out of thin air and the rest, as they say, was history.

Diem was also more interested in preserving his own power than fighting Communists. That meant preserving the army as much as possible and staffing it with cronies that would keep him in power. Any commander who lost too many men was sacked, so his officers played it safe and did as little fighting as possible.

no , I am sorry but you are conflating and innocently mis- characterizing .

example- the strategic hamlet program for instance was on its way to to a huge measure of success. But in fits and starts...why?

Because In order for it to be a success Deim had to be IN power.

So when he was threatened he had to pull troops in from the country side or keep elite units close to Saigon, ANY and every commander there after did same, the how many, 9 governments that came after Deim and before the fall in 75 all did the same, when we recognized Deim a lot of that went away, which was a good thing. BUT we did not and could not sit on it all.

 

[Trajan]

A Communist Plebiscite? You know nothing about the Communist North. The Communist North would have invaded South Vietnam and taken full control. Just like they did in 1975.

Do some research before you comment on something you know very little about.

The plebiscite was to be held in the south. You don't seem to know much about the history. We would have been on the side of democracy, but decided not to let the people have their say.

Instead of allowing the plebiscite, we installed Diem as head of the new "anti-Communist" country we created out of thin air and the rest, as they say, was history.

thats a bit of a mis-characterization too.

Diem and Bo-Dai had had run off if you will, Diem won handily.

now if your point is the election was rigged a bit for Diem I agree, but really, the south was tired of Bo Dai who had spent most of his time holed up in Hue, Dalat or the French Riviera anyway and, this is key ; the plebiscite you name would have been just as dirty as this one was....so, its a wash.

 

[konradv]

The plebiscite was to be held in the south. You don't seem to know much about the history. We would have been on the side of democracy, but decided not to let the people have their say.

Instead of allowing the plebiscite, we installed Diem as head of the new "anti-Communist" country we created out of thin air and the rest, as they say, was history.

thats a bit of a mis-characterization too.

Diem and Bo-Dai had had run off if you will, Diem won handily.

now if your point is the election was rigged a bit for Diem I agree, but really, the south was tired of Bo Dai who had spent most of his time holed up in Hue, Dalat or the French Riviera anyway and, this is key ; the plebiscite you name would have been just as dirty as this one was....so, its a wash.

You don't know that. All that's certain is that we came down on the side of not allowing the people to have their say. It shouldn't have been our decision. We took that away and millions died. How can you justify that?