Do you remember Vietnam on TV?

[Oldguy]

Instead of allowing the plebiscite, we installed Diem as head of the new "anti-Communist" country we created out of thin air and the rest, as they say, was history.

Diem was also more interested in preserving his own power than fighting Communists. That meant preserving the army as much as possible and staffing it with cronies that would keep him in power. Any commander who lost too many men was sacked, so his officers played it safe and did as little fighting as possible.

no , I am sorry but you are conflating and innocently mis- characterizing .

example- the strategic hamlet program for instance was on its way to to a huge measure of success. But in fits and starts...why?

Because In order for it to be a success Deim had to be IN power.

So when he was threatened he had to pull troops in from the country side or keep elite units close to Saigon, ANY and every commander there after did same, the how many, 9 governments that came after Deim and before the fall in 75 all did the same, when we recognized Deim a lot of that went away, which was a good thing. BUT we did not and could not sit on it all.

You should ask the residents forcibly removed from their villages and ancestral land whether or not the strategic hamlet program was a huge success. Or, ask the residents of Duc Duc.

 

[georgephillip]

" The title is taken from an order given to the U.S. forces who slaughtered more than 500 Vietnamese civilians in the notorious My Lai massacre of 1968.

"Drawing on interviews in Vietnam and a trove of previously unknown U.S. government documents — including internal military investigations of alleged war crimes in Vietnam — Turse argues that U.S. atrocities in Vietnam were not just isolated incidents, but 'the inevitable outcome of deliberate policies, dictated at the highest levels of the military.'"

"Kill Anything That Moves": New Book Exposes Hidden Crimes of the War Kerry, Hagel Fought in Vietnam

 

[TruthSeeker56]

My brother didnt come home in a box thankfully.

I know he likely would have if he had gone to veitnam.

He instead when drafted did EVERYTHING that they demanded he do except one little thing.

He refused to hold a gun.

He did EVERYTHING they wanted him to do to punish him and taunt him into carrying the gun.

He refused.

the drill sargent would throw the gun at him and he would imediately throw it back at the guy.

He refused to hold a gun.

Needless to say after the drill sargent realised he COULD NOT BREAK my brothers will he advised he be dishonorably discharged.

That discharge was changed to a honorable one after the war was realised for what it was.

My brother never even petitioned for it to be changed.

Thankfully I only spent a few months wondering if my brother would end up coming home in a box.

Many little sisters fears were realised in that horrible fucking mess that was the Veitnam war.

I don't believe this MYTH about your brother for a second, but just in case there is a shred of truth to your "story", then your brother's actions were those of a COWARD.

It runs in the family.

 

[usmcstinger]

I think you're missing the point that this was a war we shouldn't have gotten into in the first place. The right thing to do would have been to allow the plebiscite and let the people decide on whether they wanted a unified country. Failure top do so is what led to 50,000+ American and millions of Viet Namese deaths.

A Communist Plebiscite? You know nothing about the Communist North. The Communist North would have invaded South Vietnam and taken full control. Just like they did in 1975.

Do some research before you comment on something you know very little about.

The plebiscite was to be held in the south. You don't seem to know much about the history. We would have been on the side of democracy, but decided not to let the people have their say.

According to the Geneva Convention: One of the documents called on the brand new governments off North and South Vietnam to hold joint elections in 1956, in which voters from both countries would vote to choose a single government under which the two nations would be merged into one. Not just in South Vietnam as you erroneously stated
The Ho Chi Minh regime in North Vietnam was so brutal in its repression of its own people that something like one million people voted with their feet by fleeing to the South. According to this Wikipedia page, as many as three million people might have fled the North if the Communist government had not stopped most of them.

Paris Peace Accords of January 27, 1973, were the beginning of the end of South Vietnam. There would be an immediate in-place permanent cease-fire. The U.S. agreed to withdraw all its troops in 60 days (but could continue to send military supplies); North Vietnam was allowed to keep its 200,000 troops in the South but was not allowed to send new ones.
Fall of South Vietnam - encyclopedia article - Citizendium
In addition:There would an immediate in-place permanent cease-fire. The U.S. agreed to withdraw all its troops in 60 days (but could continue to send Both sides agreed to the withdrawal of all foreign troops from Laos and Cambodia and the prohibition of bases in and troop movements through these countries. It was agreed that the DMZ at the 17th
Parallel would remain a provisional dividing line, with eventual reunification of the country "through peaceful means." An international control commission would be established made up of Canadians, Hungarians, Poles, and Indonesians, with 1,160 inspectors to supervise the agreement. According to the agreement, South Vietnamese President Nguyen Van Thieu would continue in office pending elections. Agreeing to "the South Vietnamese People's right to self-determination,"the North Vietnamese said they would not initiate military movement across the DMZ and that there would be no use of force to reunify the country. Paris Peace Accords signed ? History.com This Day in History ? 1/27/1973

On January 13, 1975 ( In Violation of the Paris Peace Accords ), The North Vietnamese Army invaded and took control of South Vietnam.
North Vietnam violated every aspect of the Paris Peace Accords. A 6th grader knows that Democracy does not exist in a Communist country.

Hey dimwit. It is you who does not know history. Try doing some research before you make a fool of yourself.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I remember Walter Cronkite lying his ass off.

Are you reading for the role of Archie Bunker?

you are sooooo full of shit

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I remember Walter Cronkite lying his ass off.

Ditto

another bullshit artist. neither can name a newscast where this was their opinion at the time. It is all memory altered by a constant screech of right wing noise

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Believe it or not, but VietNam was actually fought in black and white

I remember each newscast (there were only three and they lasted a half hour) would have footage. Most was guys getting off a helicopter, some patrol type stuff....not a lot of "look at the dead bodies"

A lot of the really gross stuff was in still photographs

In spite of right wing revisionist history, Cronkite was great

I remember it was on the nightly news. I remember Tet and a few other instances seemed to scare the shit out of all the adults around.

I grew up with adults full of fears of a Boston Strangler, Bay of Pigs, Assassinations, Space Program stuff, race riots, the hippies and yippies and summer(s) of luv, anti-war rallies, the peace movement...the 60s was a heady time for a precocious kid

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

My brother didnt come home in a box thankfully.

I know he likely would have if he had gone to veitnam.


He instead when drafted did EVERYTHING that they demanded he do except one little thing.


He refused to hold a gun.


He did EVERYTHING they wanted him to do to punish him and taunt him into carrying the gun.


He refused.


the drill sargent would throw the gun at him and he would imediately throw it back at the guy.


He refused to hold a gun.



Needless to say after the drill sargent realised he COULD NOT BREAK my brothers will he advised he be dishonorably discharged.


That discharge was changed to a honorable one after the war was realised for what it was.


My brother never even petitioned for it to be changed.


Thankfully I only spent a few months wondering if my brother would end up coming home in a box.


Many little sisters fears were realised in that horrible fucking mess that was the Veitnam war.

why does truthseeker in post # 103 attack your whole family?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Hi Konradv

Thanks again for your reply! I have not used one of these chat forums before but I think this topic has really opened my eyes to how much the war is still on peoples minds in America. It sounds like these records of what happened to you are an invaluable piece of your past.

For my essay I am putting together a collection of photographs with captions about what they mean to the person who owns them now. The reason we have been given the Vietnam war as a topic is because my university holds the archives for Stanley Kubrics’s- Full Metal Jacket and Philip Jones Griffiths -Vietnam INC. My college is going to archive our essays for future generations to see. I was wondering if I could contact you via email about some the photos you have saved?

Thanks Ross

call Senator John Kerry's office.

btw, instead of the bullshit here try looking at the Max Cleland: Digital Collection: Veterans History Project (Library of Congress)

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I remember Walter Cronkite lying his ass off.

Well..

Be clear.

When did Cronkite lie?

yeah...still....waiting....for this one....

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Well..

Be clear.

When did Cronkite lie?

His biggest lie was that we lost the Tet offensive. We won, decisively. That was the lie that turned the war. General Vo Nguyen Giap said in his memoirs that he was preparing for surrender when he realized that the American media was doing for him what he could not do for himself. All he had to do was hold out until the American media gained him victory. That's exactly what happened.

snopes.com: General Vo Nguyen Giap on Vietnam

What Cronkite actually said?

"For it seems now more certain than ever that the bloody experience of Vietnam is to end in a stalemate. This summer’s almost certain standoff will either end in real give-and-take negotiations or terrible escalation; and for every means we have to escalate, the enemy can match us, and that applies to invasion of the North, the use of nuclear weapons, or the mere commitment of one hundred, or two hundred, or three hundred thousand more American troops to the battle. And with each escalation, the world comes closer to the brink of cosmic disaster."

there are video links on this page: http://www.pbs.org/weta/reportingamericaatwar/reporters/cronkite/#

 

[georgephillip]

A Communist Plebiscite? You know nothing about the Communist North. The Communist North would have invaded South Vietnam and taken full control. Just like they did in 1975.

Do some research before you comment on something you know very little about.

The plebiscite was to be held in the south. You don't seem to know much about the history. We would have been on the side of democracy, but decided not to let the people have their say.

According to the Geneva Convention: One of the documents called on the brand new governments off North and South Vietnam to hold joint elections in 1956, in which voters from both countries would vote to choose a single government under which the two nations would be merged into one. Not just in South Vietnam as you erroneously stated
The Ho Chi Minh regime in North Vietnam was so brutal in its repression of its own people that something like one million people voted with their feet by fleeing to the South. According to this Wikipedia page, as many as three million people might have fled the North if the Communist government had not stopped most of them.

Paris Peace Accords of January 27, 1973, were the beginning of the end of South Vietnam. There would be an immediate in-place permanent cease-fire. The U.S. agreed to withdraw all its troops in 60 days (but could continue to send military supplies); North Vietnam was allowed to keep its 200,000 troops in the South but was not allowed to send new ones.
Fall of South Vietnam - encyclopedia article - Citizendium
In addition:There would an immediate in-place permanent cease-fire. The U.S. agreed to withdraw all its troops in 60 days (but could continue to send Both sides agreed to the withdrawal of all foreign troops from Laos and Cambodia and the prohibition of bases in and troop movements through these countries. It was agreed that the DMZ at the 17th
Parallel would remain a provisional dividing line, with eventual reunification of the country "through peaceful means." An international control commission would be established made up of Canadians, Hungarians, Poles, and Indonesians, with 1,160 inspectors to supervise the agreement. According to the agreement, South Vietnamese President Nguyen Van Thieu would continue in office pending elections. Agreeing to "the South Vietnamese People's right to self-determination,"the North Vietnamese said they would not initiate military movement across the DMZ and that there would be no use of force to reunify the country. Paris Peace Accords signed ? History.com This Day in History ? 1/27/1973

On January 13, 1975 ( In Violation of the Paris Peace Accords ), The North Vietnamese Army invaded and took control of South Vietnam.
North Vietnam violated every aspect of the Paris Peace Accords. A 6th grader knows that Democracy does not exist in a Communist country.

Hey dimwit. It is you who does not know history. Try doing some research before you make a fool of yourself.

From Wiki:

"The colonial administration ended and French Indochina was dissolved under the Geneva Accords of 1954, which separated the forces of former French supporters and communist nationalists at the 17th parallel north with the Vietnamese Demilitarized Zone.

"A 300-day period of free movement was given, during which almost a million northerners, mainly Catholic, moved south, fearing persecution by the communists.

"The partition of Vietnam, with Ho Chi Minh's Democratic Republic of Vietnam in North Vietnam, and Emperor Bảo Đại's State of Vietnam in South Vietnam, was not intended to be permanent by the Geneva Accords, and the Accords expressly forbade the interference of third powers.

"However, in 1955, the State of Vietnam's Prime Minister, Ngo Dinh Diem, toppled Bảo Đại in a fraudulent referendum organised by his brother Ngo Dinh Nhu, and proclaimed himself president of the Republic of Vietnam.

"The Accords mandated nationwide elections by 1956, which Diem refused to hold, despite repeated calls from the North for talks to discuss elections."

Third graders know Uncle Ho would have won that election easier than G. Washington won his.

Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Warrior102]

another bullshit artist. neither can name a newscast where this was their opinion at the time. It is all memory altered by a constant screech of right wing noise

Hardly, dildo

 

[Godboy]

My brother didnt come home in a box thankfully.
I know he likely would have if he had gone to veitnam.
He instead when drafted did EVERYTHING that they demanded he do except one little thing.
He refused to hold a gun.
He did EVERYTHING they wanted him to do to punish him and taunt him into carrying the gun.
He refused.
the drill sargent would throw the gun at him and he would imediately throw it back at the guy.
He refused to hold a gun.
Needless to say after the drill sargent realised he COULD NOT BREAK my brothers will he advised he be dishonorably discharged.
That discharge was changed to a honorable one after the war was realised for what it was.
My brother never even petitioned for it to be changed.

STFU you lying vodka soaked ****........

In those days if you threw your weapon at a D.I.

3 OR 4 of them would have beat the crap out of you and said you slipped in the shower.

And Dishonorable discharges are not automatically changed to Honorable you freakin nitwit.


We had a couple of drafted guys in our unit during basic training who didn't want hold a weapon in combat. (thinking this would exempt them from going to Vietnam)

They still had to complete the weapons portion of basic training. Then were given "Conscientious Objector" status and sent to Ft. Sam Houston for training to be Medics. (medics do not carry weapons)

But the joke was on the them. Because immediately after graduation from Medics school they were sent straight to Vietnam.

he didnt refuse to hold it in combat.

He refused to hold it at all.


He would throw it to the gound or back at the drill sargent.

He was too tuff for them to break at 18 fucking years old.

They could not break him.

He said he could tell the Drilly was awed by him in the end.

That never happened. Your brother lied and you were dumb enough to believe it.

 

[namvet]

I watched it on TV.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-FibDxpkb0]Lyndon Johnson - Remarks on Decision to not seek Reelection - YouTube[/ame]

 

[techieny]

I watched it in real time. I ETS'd October 26th 1972 !

 

[namvet]

i watched it in real time. I ets'd october 26th 1972 !

so did I in 1968

 

[Sunni Man]

I remember sitting in the living room watching the TV with my father as Pres. Johnson gave his speech about not seeking re-election.

My father was a 26yr. active duty career Army officer and a WWII and Korean War veteran.

He looked clearly distressed as he watch Pres. Johnson cowardly slink away from leadership.

I really didn't understand what was going on.

But what the heck; that was adult stuff that didn't affect me.

Besides, I was a teenager with a hot rod 57 Chevy and an even hotter girlfriend.

Life was good.

Then one day I received my "Greetings" letter from the new President.........

 

[Trajan]

Believe it or not, but VietNam was actually fought in black and white

I remember each newscast (there were only three and they lasted a half hour) would have footage. Most was guys getting off a helicopter, some patrol type stuff....not a lot of "look at the dead bodies"

A lot of the really gross stuff was in still photographs

In spite of right wing revisionist history, Cronkite was great

I remember it was on the nightly news. I remember Tet and a few other instances seemed to scare the shit out of all the adults around.

I grew up with adults full of fears of a Boston Strangler, Bay of Pigs, Assassinations, Space Program stuff, race riots, the hippies and yippies and summer(s) of luv, anti-war rallies, the peace movement...the 60s was a heady time for a precocious kid

How old R U Dante

 

[Trajan]

Instead of allowing the plebiscite, we installed Diem as head of the new "anti-Communist" country we created out of thin air and the rest, as they say, was history.

thats a bit of a mis-characterization too.

Diem and Bo-Dai had had run off if you will, Diem won handily.

now if your point is the election was rigged a bit for Diem I agree, but really, the south was tired of Bo Dai who had spent most of his time holed up in Hue, Dalat or the French Riviera anyway and, this is key ; the plebiscite you name would have been just as dirty as this one was....so, its a wash.

You don't know that. All that's certain is that we came down on the side of not allowing the people to have their say. It shouldn't have been our decision. We took that away and millions died. How can you justify that?

rigt, becasue the the 'election' of Ho chi Minh was, what again?

I am not justifying anything, stop being emotional or this will go no where

can you justify the riots and uprisings that took place, that was brutally smashed in the north when they got tired of sending their men to and feeding the NLF in the south?

Question how many people on a comparative basis do you think died due to governments machinations, more in the north or more in the south?