Do You Believe In God?

[RodISHI]

You are taking a Biblical phrase and applying your own concept to it. Correcting you because of your ignorance on what that phrase is, is not correcting your English. It is in fact correcting for your Biblical illiteracy.

Oh bullshit. English is English is English. You're trying to tell me the words on the page don't mean what they say because you find them inconvenient?

Thanks for playin'. Dismissed.

Translate that phrase back into the original Greek and see what the writers meant.

See, there's what I mean.

someone claiming the bible was written in greek, when it was translated to greek.

religion is absurd, none of you can be right, it's impossible.

Translated to Greek from English?
Or from Hebrew or Aramaic to Greek to English. You and Pogo are nit picking.

Hoss, you may have a point. No Greek was not the original but crucial meaning can be lost in a mistranslation -- I'm thinking specifically here of almah and bethulah which may have contributed to the whole "virgin birth" fiasco.

But the poster above was trying to tell me an English version doesn't mean what its own words say -- regardless what the original said. I don't have access to the original and I doubt anyone here does either. So as far as a mismatch between the original and the English, we have no evidence. But clearly the English phrase means what the English phrase means.

Now if the bible editors/translators blew it, that would be on them, but the undertook that with a mission, and the end result was apparently where they wanted that mission to go, so that's what we got.

BS, I'm telling you, that you are taking a piece, a portion and adding your concept to it. Again this is your Biblical illiteracy or worst yet an ill fated attempt to twist the words to fit your own needs.

 

[RodISHI]

I have met two people who teach the process as being shown everything in advance that we are going to experience before we are born, agreeing first, then erasing all that so we live it blind?

Great post Emily. I just copied this portion to chat on. If someone is shown something in the spirit prior to being born into this world it is very likely they could have been shown what their life would be in the world apart from living strictly as a spiritual being. If one is shown something in the spiritual realm it is not always an easy task to transfer that into the carnal flesh realm. For some I have notice it is easy to add one's own desires or belief system into that which has been seen in the spirit. Just a thought to ponder.

I thought my friends were trying to rationalize some way to say we CHOSE this life.
They were saying before birth, God shows each soul everything they go through and why.
And the soul accepts before being born. But then the vision and knowledge is 'wiped clean'
so it doesn't interfere with going through the process in life in physical reality.

I don't think it is necessary to go to this extent to "tell people on some level you chose this
life but don't remember agreeing to it"
That to me is like coercion or brainwashing.
I don't think it is necessary to even go there.

I think it is enough to say we know what we need to in order to grow in life.
The more open we are, the more unconditional, the more information we can handle in advance.
if we are going to ABUSE that information or knowledge, then it is blocked from our access.

For some reason, some people "need to see it this way"
I don't think we even need to know everything that happens in life and why
and certainly don't need to "know in advance" in order to have faith things happen for a reason
and will turn out good in the end, where the good outweighs the bad.

it seems to me that adding the "condition" that we "knew in advance and agreed" is
NOT UNconditional acceptance. It is adding some condition, and then being at peace, feeling that condition was met.

I believe that TRUE unconditional acceptance
means NOT knowing in advance, but trusting that the arc of life curves toward justice
so all things work out over time. Anything bad is going to be resolved, and the debts
paid forward to correct things in the future when we get to that point.

We don't have to see all the details to agree in advance before we are born.

Even when I am trying to show people "examples" of what is possible in the future,
I don't know the future in detail. I can point to rough examples to give an idea of
sustainable solutions that "hypothetically" could work; and trust that whatever will
happen is going to come out different from the example I offer anyway.

I can show examples or counterexamples of what is "possible"
but that's not the same as a Condition, that someone AGREES to change
their mind on the Condition that a certain solution happens. It's not like that.
Forgiveness and acceptance works by being unconditional -- regardless how, when or if
a problem gets solved in the future, if someone agrees to accept and let go that allows
corrections and healing to enter the picture. But if someone Conditions their forgiveness
on mandated terms, that isn't pure forgiveness, and can obstruct the process by attaching
terms that must be met before the emotions are let go. The closing of the mind by adding
restrictive conditions can limit or obstruct the process.

I think this is close to what you and Pogo said about people "adding their own" spin on things.
There is nothing wrong with explaining things in terms we can grasp.
But if it is "adding a man made condition" then that is what creates religious bias
that some people may follow but other people don't have, and is not "universal truth."
So this can become divisive when someone else like me says "I don't relate"
to that description of the process.

Frankly I am baffled by the idea of being shown everything and agreeing before birth.

From what I understand, people who were shown things as a spiritual vision
KEPT that memory so it would help them work through their process.

I understand that and have gone through spiritual experiences that are more like THAT.
Where the point is to REMEMBER not forget!

I also found my experiences may be different from others in terms of free will.
Making/discovering the commitment to enforce Constitutional laws and protections for all people
limits choices to what is Constitutionally fair, consistent and inclusive of all people.

So I am not going to have the freedom, for example, to go around violating other people's rights
when I made the commitment to enforce the same standards for people as for govt.

There is nothing "illegal" about accusing people of lying or being a jerk,
but to me, it is against the "spirit" or principle of "due process" to "convict condemn and punish someone"
without first proving what they did, and letting them answer and defend themselves to address the conflicts
objections or grievances.

Other people who don't make this commitment are more free to go around posting whatever
they want to say to slam someone else.

I believe I have more free speech in terms of a receptive audience where my point is better received
by NOT violating people's right of defense. So I think it is worth it to exercise more restraint,
and make the same points but without attaching unnecessary value judgments on people.

On one level, I may not have the same level of free will as other people who didn't make such a commitment.
But if my commitment allows me more freedom and peace to work with diverse people, without fear or threat of conflicts obstructing our ability to work together, then it actually allows for more freedom in a sense.

In the meantime, it seems to make a difference in how I perceive relations and the authority of law
versus how other people see it, if I believe I SHARE equal responsibility for enforcing laws as govt has.

Maybe my path is just not like these other people who feel like they were shown their lives in advance
but then the memory was wiped clear. At the point in life where I felt I was first aware of how much
had to change to get from where things came from in the past to where they were going in the future,
the point of my process was to reconcile with that knowledge while fully aware, knowing it is going to change
by the time to get to each stage and step. My friends who told me this idea of seeing things in advance
before being born could NOT convince me that I would have EVER agreed to go through things like this
had I seen it.

From my experience, I felt without any doubt that the good would outweigh the bad, even without seeing it.
The knowledge of each and every step is so detailed and interconnected with everyone else's paths in life,
there is NO way any soul can be shown all that "as a condition" to agree to it in advance.

Just find this baffling. I can barely deal with knowledge one step at a time, there is no way to see all things over all time. Nobody has the capacity to see all that. I think we can know and accept it unconsciously on a spiritual level, but this idea of showing all the events, how is that even necessary if the point is to accept without condition, knowing we don't know it all and will always be limited to the parts we need to know to get by.

If you can explain this better, RodISHI I'd appreciate it
My friends were shocked that "i didn't know I had chosen and accepted all this in advance"
I was more shocked that they thought we had free will to choose (by the process of being shown all things in advance before being born), when we will never know all things
as needed to be fully informed enough to have truly free choice.

Whatever point of the process they were talking about, and again I've run into this before
with other highminded well intended people teaching it this way,
I must have missed that bus or slept through that PowerPoint
because there is NO WAY I would have agreed to all this mess had I been given a choice.
I would still be backstage arguing with God and refusing to go on and play whatever part.

You'd have better luck convincing a dog to get back in the cage and go to the vet for more pain and suffering.
Or convincing that clerk in Kentucky to get off the soap box and get back to work issuing licenses.

Maybe everyone else got to see a preview trailer before agreeing to the movie.
Maybe I was sliding down in my seat, covering my eyes and just missed that part where I get warned in advance!

Possibly time and space involved in that. We all have certain things to learn during our lives here in this world. There are certain things we would not learn as readily or be able to fully understand if we had the knowledge beforehand of where the ultimate treasures are and what sacrifices will be made to find them.
BTW, my dog readily took his shots, went to the vet happy and even gave her a hug when I told him to show her that he still loved her. When I told him to go give her husband a hug he would not. He walked over towards him and looked at me like "No way mom I don't love him". Came back and laid on his blanket in front of me. If I told him to get in a cage he would have readily done so. He did not like the pills and shots but accepted them easily because he knew that they were a necessity. Poor guy suffered shots and pills for almost two years but he lived 4 years longer than any of lis litter mates.

 

[emilynghiem]

Yes.

But I reject the strident, narrow-minded, sectarian ideologues who think that they, and they alone, have all the answers.

God would be ashamed of the extraordinarily arrogance these people.

I find God/Life to be very forgiving and full of grace.
But with that openness comes the understanding that people's pride becomes their own downfall.

You don't have to "wish ill" on people, they will fall flat on their behinds if the don't check themselves.
You can be as loving and accepting as can be, and they will still hang themselves on their own rope.

 

[emilynghiem]

Spin all you like but the simple imperative sentence "Fear God" is very straightforward. Verb; direct object. No reference to extraneous qualifiers. Don't sit here and preach to me about ignorance; I need English lessons from no one.

You are taking a Biblical phrase and applying your own concept to it. Correcting you because of your ignorance on what that phrase is, is not correcting your English. It is in fact correcting for your Biblical illiteracy.

Oh bullshit. English is English is English. You're trying to tell me the words on the page don't mean what they say because you find them inconvenient?

Thanks for playin'. Dismissed.

Dear Pogo I understand Fear means to Revere and Respect.
Think of it in terms of Fearing nature. Sure we love nature and appreciate the gifts and beauty,
but when it comes to the power of hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, mudslides,
we know enough to be wary of the forces of life that can bring on destruction as well.

 

[Campbell]

Yes.

But I reject the strident, narrow-minded, sectarian ideologues who think that they, and they alone, have all the answers.

God would be ashamed of the extraordinarily arrogance these people.

I find God/Life to be very forgiving and full of grace.
But with that openness comes the understanding that people's pride becomes their own downfall.

You don't have to "wish ill" on people, they will fall flat on their behinds if they don't check themselves.
You can be as loving and accepting as can be, and they will still hang themselves on their own rope.

I've always wondered which god. Most of the people in the world believe in a god:

There's One Thing For Certain...I Don't Need This:

Mark 16:17-18King James Version (KJV)
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 

[emilynghiem]

I think that God is pretty stuck up. He has never spoken a word to me.

Dear Vandalshandle
any time your "conscience" distinguishes what is true or false, consistent or inconsistent.
Whenever you hear of an incident in the media and evaluate what is justice or injustice,
what is right or wrong. That is the equivalent of reconciling what is "truth and wisdom"
and that is the same as hearing the voice of God or Jesus as Truth and Justice.

Everyone has this by nature, this sense of Justice and Truth.
The point of spiritual teachings is to have a clear connections so we can agree what is Truth where is Justice
in order to restore peace and harmony in life collectively by focusing on our relationships locally.

We do this by listening to the voice of reason or justice, which is the equivalent of "God" speaking to us.
But the secular gentiles may frame this process in practical terms, and not use symbols personifying God or Jesus.

 

[emilynghiem]

Yes.

But I reject the strident, narrow-minded, sectarian ideologues who think that they, and they alone, have all the answers.

God would be ashamed of the extraordinarily arrogance these people.

I find God/Life to be very forgiving and full of grace.
But with that openness comes the understanding that people's pride becomes their own downfall.

You don't have to "wish ill" on people, they will fall flat on their behinds if they don't check themselves.
You can be as loving and accepting as can be, and they will still hang themselves on their own rope.

I've always wondered which god. Most of the people in the world believe in a god:

All of the above. All are different aspects of the one God as the central source of life and universal truth.
The more you can relate the different perspectives together, you can appreciate the multiple facets
that all point to the same God.

 

[emilynghiem]

I am a Christian.
I believe Jesus is God in human form.
I believe God is 3 person (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)

What do YOU believe?

the idea that was are some cosmic accident is absurd.

ha ha, I know you mean to be serious, Two Thumbs
but I'm sorry to say that unfortunately some people around here
could be taken as living proof of "cosmic accidents"

That would be a great term to use on a flame thread
Sorry to digress. Back to the intelligent discussion of God and religious representations thereof....

 

[emilynghiem]

Don't take me too seriously... it was a tongue-in-cheek jab at the convenience of the age of Biblical Miracles ending just when communication technologies got to the point of being able to effectively document them.

No, I don't dream. At least not that I can recall.

Even if another sees a miracle today and documented it someone would try to say it was not a miracle. I am pretty certain that is why each must make up our own minds.

I think when people see the power of forgiveness
to completely liberate and free people of ill will that is beyond human comprehension,
that is demonstration of the divine, to see the healing effect that has on people and relations
in the face of absolutely unforgiveable wrongs and tragedy.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Spin all you like but the simple imperative sentence "Fear God" is very straightforward. Verb; direct object. No reference to extraneous qualifiers. Don't sit here and preach to me about ignorance; I need English lessons from no one.

You are taking a Biblical phrase and applying your own concept to it. Correcting you because of your ignorance on what that phrase is, is not correcting your English. It is in fact correcting for your Biblical illiteracy.

Oh bullshit. English is English is English. You're trying to tell me the words on the page don't mean what they say because you find them inconvenient?

Thanks for playin'. Dismissed.

Translate that phrase back into the original Greek and see what the writers meant.

See, there's what I mean.

someone claiming the bible was written in greek, when it was translated to greek.

religion is absurd, none of you can be right, it's impossible.

Translated to Greek from English?
Or from Hebrew or Aramaic to Greek to English. You and Pogo are nit picking.

hebrew to arab to lating to greek to latin to english

then you throw in the various leaders that threw stuff our or changed things to suit themselves.

 

[Two Thumbs]

The main religions aren't even close to having been the first religions. And we know the bible has been heavily edited through the ages.

Hear hear, true fact.

And if we have any interest at all in the area we owe it to ourselves to go at least investigate some of those alternatives, rather than just blindly accepting what we've been handed at birth.

I had an ironic childhood

my grandmother would pray the rosary and kiss the cross and pass it around for everyone else to kiss (that was kinda creepy)
my dad carried the cross in church (alter boy) but he only did it so he would have to kneel or bow or anything.
my mom grew up in the southern bible belt and I have never heard her say the words god or jesus, not once and she's 80.
They sent me to catholic school (I know right)
and in the HS I was taught that the popes edited the bible themselves.

but that wasn't the really crazy shit, but that's another thread

 

[AVG-JOE]

our man made symbols and religions are used to REFLECT the laws already out there,
but the laws exist in the world by their own design, and no, man did not make those up.

If that were true there would be no such thing as 'Religious Conflict' among humans.

The only laws out there that count are the ones that can be enforced.

If any of the gods described in human culture ever starts to actually enforce his own laws, I'll believe.

 

[Campbell]

Yes.

But I reject the strident, narrow-minded, sectarian ideologues who think that they, and they alone, have all the answers.

God would be ashamed of the extraordinarily arrogance these people.

I find God/Life to be very forgiving and full of grace.
But with that openness comes the understanding that people's pride becomes their own downfall.

You don't have to "wish ill" on people, they will fall flat on their behinds if they don't check themselves.
You can be as loving and accepting as can be, and they will still hang themselves on their own rope.

I've always wondered which god. Most of the people in the world believe in a god:

All of the above. All are different aspects of the one God as the central source of life and universal truth.
The more you can relate the different perspectives together, you can appreciate the multiple facets
that all point to the same God.

Tell that to ISIS at their next beheading!

 

[Vandalshandle]

I think that God is pretty stuck up. He has never spoken a word to me.

Dear Vandalshandle
any time your "conscience" distinguishes what is true or false, consistent or inconsistent.
Whenever you hear of an incident in the media and evaluate what is justice or injustice,
what is right or wrong. That is the equivalent of reconciling what is "truth and wisdom"
and that is the same as hearing the voice of God or Jesus as Truth and Justice.

Everyone has this by nature, this sense of Justice and Truth.
The point of spiritual teachings is to have a clear connections so we can agree what is Truth where is Justice
in order to restore peace and harmony in life collectively by focusing on our relationships locally.

We do this by listening to the voice of reason or justice, which is the equivalent of "God" speaking to us.
But the secular gentiles may frame this process in practical terms, and not use symbols personifying God or Jesus.

Although i do not doubt your sincerity, or good intentions, I'm not buying a word of it.

 

[Muhammed]

I don't, but my wife is a devout Catholic. In fact I married her because of her religious faith.

 

[Pogo]

Dear Pogo I understand Fear means to Revere and Respect.

well the dictionary doesn't understand it that way.

Fear is never a positive except to the extent it makes you alert to a threat.
Which is useful. But why would you want to invent a threat in the first place?

Because you're setting your target up for a power trip, that's why.

 

[Pogo]

Yes.

But I reject the strident, narrow-minded, sectarian ideologues who think that they, and they alone, have all the answers.

God would be ashamed of the extraordinarily arrogance these people.

I find God/Life to be very forgiving and full of grace.
But with that openness comes the understanding that people's pride becomes their own downfall.

You don't have to "wish ill" on people, they will fall flat on their behinds if they don't check themselves.
You can be as loving and accepting as can be, and they will still hang themselves on their own rope.

I've always wondered which god. Most of the people in the world believe in a god:

It's a nice thought.

When I was a tot I had some children's book that told a fable about "Indians". Probably entirely made up but it doesn't matter. It said that "Indian" (which one they didn't say) mythology teaches that when you die the question put before you is "how may people were made happier because you were born?"

That made a lot of sense to me and I've always tried to live by it.

Doesn't matter who comes up with the wisdom. It's more important what the wisdom is.

 

[Bonzi]

Yes.

But I reject the strident, narrow-minded, sectarian ideologues who think that they, and they alone, have all the answers.

God would be ashamed of the extraordinarily arrogance these people.

I find God/Life to be very forgiving and full of grace.
But with that openness comes the understanding that people's pride becomes their own downfall.

You don't have to "wish ill" on people, they will fall flat on their behinds if they don't check themselves.
You can be as loving and accepting as can be, and they will still hang themselves on their own rope.

I've always wondered which god. Most of the people in the world believe in a god:

It's a nice thought.

When I was a tot I had some children's book that told a fable about "Indians". Probably entirely made up but it doesn't matter. It said that "Indian" (which one they didn't say) mythology teaches that when you die the question put before you is "how may people were made happier because you were born?"

That made a lot of sense to me and I've always tried to live by it.

Doesn't matter who comes up with the wisdom. It's more important what the wisdom is.

 

[Pogo]

Yes.

But I reject the strident, narrow-minded, sectarian ideologues who think that they, and they alone, have all the answers.

God would be ashamed of the extraordinarily arrogance these people.

I find God/Life to be very forgiving and full of grace.
But with that openness comes the understanding that people's pride becomes their own downfall.

You don't have to "wish ill" on people, they will fall flat on their behinds if they don't check themselves.
You can be as loving and accepting as can be, and they will still hang themselves on their own rope.

I've always wondered which god. Most of the people in the world believe in a god:

It's a nice thought.

When I was a tot I had some children's book that told a fable about "Indians". Probably entirely made up but it doesn't matter. It said that "Indian" (which one they didn't say) mythology teaches that when you die the question put before you is "how may people were made happier because you were born?"

That made a lot of sense to me and I've always tried to live by it.

Doesn't matter who comes up with the wisdom. It's more important what the wisdom is.

You have cameras in my house? I knew it.

Long as you're watching -- does this lack of clothes make me look fat?

 

[Bonzi]

Yes.

But I reject the strident, narrow-minded, sectarian ideologues who think that they, and they alone, have all the answers.

God would be ashamed of the extraordinarily arrogance these people.

I find God/Life to be very forgiving and full of grace.
But with that openness comes the understanding that people's pride becomes their own downfall.

You don't have to "wish ill" on people, they will fall flat on their behinds if they don't check themselves.
You can be as loving and accepting as can be, and they will still hang themselves on their own rope.

I've always wondered which god. Most of the people in the world believe in a god:

It's a nice thought.

When I was a tot I had some children's book that told a fable about "Indians". Probably entirely made up but it doesn't matter. It said that "Indian" (which one they didn't say) mythology teaches that when you die the question put before you is "how may people were made happier because you were born?"

That made a lot of sense to me and I've always tried to live by it.

Doesn't matter who comes up with the wisdom. It's more important what the wisdom is.

You have cameras in my house? I knew it.

Long as you're watching -- does this lack of clothes make me look fat?

Please I'm eating lunch, I'd like to finish...