I already have, and I'll see him again when I leave here, Byrd lover.
"Do you believe in a personal God?"
- Thread starter Dante
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RandomVariable
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There is much more to Calvinism than just predetermination, which I would love to discuss, but for the moment just this one aspect. I was not making a blanket statement that Calvinists believe God overrides man's free will but do you not agree that if one were predetermined in the Calvinist sense that that person has indeed lost that one particular free will choice?
I use to believe I had a personal relationship with god. I realized that all the organized religions were corrupt and made up but I didn't want that to stop me from having a relationship with god so I rejected all organized religions but still stayed buddies with god. Then I realized there is no god. If all religions are a lie and were all made up, so too was god.
Think about it. God never talked to Joseph Smith or Mohammad, right? Christians don't believe they talked to god. The Greek gods were invented/made up thousands of years before the Jews made up Abraham and Moses. Wee the Greek gods real?
It's all made up!
Votto
Diamond Member
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Why would you go on a spiritual quest for an impersonal God?
Dante: There you are, how's it going God?
God: Get lost punk.
PostmodernProph
....fully immersed....
not in the slightest would I agree with that....primarily because he had never told me that I was predetermined......therefore his knowledge had no impact at all upon my choice........if I go into a restaurant that has nothing left except hamburger and I order a hamburger before the waitress tells me that, did I choose to eat hamburger or was I forced to?.......
- Banned
- #86
Was it a supernatural hamburger........................?
I will begin the subject of this chapter with a simile. A king is in his palace, and all his subjects are partly in the country, and partly abroad. Of the former, some have their backs turned towards the king's palace, and their faces in another direction; and some are desirous and zealous to go to the palace, seeking "to inquire in his temple," and to minister before him, but have not yet seen even the face of the wall of the house. Of those that desire to go to the palace, some reach it, and go round about in search of the entrance gate; others have passed through the gate, and walk about in the ante-chamber; and others have succeeded in entering into the inner part of the palace, and being in the same room with the king in the royal palace. But even the latter do not immediately on entering the palace see the king, or speak to him; for, after having entered the inner part of the palace, another effort is required before they can stand before the king--at a distance, or close by--hear his words, or speak to him. I will now explain the simile which I have made. The people who are abroad are all those that have no religion, neither one based on speculation nor one received by tradition. Such are the extreme Turks that wander about in the north, the Kushites who live in the south, and those in our country who are like these. I consider these as irrational beings, and not as human beings; they are below mankind, but above monkeys, since they have the form and shape of man, and a mental faculty above that of the monkey.
Those who are in the country, but have their backs turned towards the king's palace, are those who possess religion, belief, and thought, but happen to hold false doctrines, which they either adopted in consequence of great mistakes made in their own speculations, or received from others who misled them. Because of these doctrines they recede more and more from the royal palace the more they seem to proceed. These are worse than the first class, and under certain circumstances it may become necessary to slay them, and to extirpate their doctrines, in order that others should not be misled.
Those who desire to arrive at the palace, and to enter it, but have never yet seen it, are the mass of religious people; the multitude that observe the divine commandments, but are ignorant. Those who arrive at the palace, but go round about it, are those who devote themselves exclusively to the study of the practical law; they believe traditionally in true principles of faith, and learn the practical worship of God, but are not trained in philosophical treatment of the principles of the Law, and do not endeavor to establish the truth of their faith by proof. Those who undertake to investigate the principles of religion, have come into the ante-chamber; and there is no doubt that these can also be divided into different grades. But those who have succeeded in finding a proof for everything that can be proved, who have a true knowledge of God, so far as a true knowledge can be attained, and are near the truth, wherever an approach to the truth is possible, they have reached the goal, and are in the palace in which the king lives.
Guide for the Perplexed Part III Chapter LI
Agit8r
Gold Member
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It is generally a way that people justify what they want to do--by calling it some sort of divine plan:
"I also have the conviction and the certain feeling that nothing can happen to me, for I know that Providence has chosen me to fulfill my task."
-- Adolf Hitler; from speech in Munich (September 4, 1932)
"I also have the conviction and the certain feeling that nothing can happen to me, for I know that Providence has chosen me to fulfill my task."
-- Adolf Hitler; from speech in Munich (September 4, 1932)
PostmodernProph
....fully immersed....
was your post meaningless and irrelevant?...
Because believing in a god who takes interest in individuals over nations and/or races is the only way to rationalize the presence of a Deity at all, given our history of the powerful thriving in luxury at the expense of the weak.
emilynghiem
Constitutionalist / Universalist
I thought the point of believing in God is recognizing there is something greater than ourselves
that humbles us.
Knowing we don't have perfect knowledge and the truth out there is greater than our limited perception.
Knowing we aren't perfectly unbiased, and true justice is greater than any flawed justice issued by man.
Knowing we aren't going to love everyone equally, so the idea that God's love is perfect and includes each person is far greater than we can ever achieve as selfish humans.
The point is NOT to justify the wrongs that people do, it is to realize how flawed we are.
So if we are forgiven of our flaws, surely we can forgive others and show the same divine mercy
that we are blessed with.
Once we see how dire the conditions of humanity are, then the concept of forgiveness
for all these deep rooted cycles of injustice and abuse is truly divine; for people to be
able to survive and move forward despite the wrongs and atrocities, that will to forgive
and pay forward in positive ways is what it means to appreciate the power of God's will or good will
to bring out the higher side of people that exceeds what we normally tend to do, if left to our own devices.
When we see that higher love and grace work through to restore the mind, body and human relations,
we know it must be coming from some higher source or process,
because the individuals are selfish and imperfect. Our human tendency is to pay back ill with more ill;
and this counterintuitive approach of forgiving first, so that healing and corrections can follow
is where the divine intervenes and transforms our conditions into something greater than we envisioned.
So that is where recognizing the higher Good Will guiding humanity to take the higher road
is truly HUMBLING. it is not to be abused for political power, that is not the point of God,
and should not be confused with religions abused to wield power over others.
AVG-JOE the same religious systems that teach good principles and ethics
can ALSO be abused for political and emotional control.
Both can use the same religious language and culture, but these
two approaches are not to be confused with each other.
True love and understanding of God makes us humble,
as servants to others. Anyone who abuses faith in God
to try to control others, to divide and conquer, is defeating the whole purpose.
Do not confuse these two, and think the negative abuses are
the point of God and religion. God's will represents perfect Good Will
so there is no lying, no excluding, no punishing or rejecting.
Whatever is the universal truth and good will for all, the
point of the fellowship is to rejoin in spirit, not divide and conquer.
emilynghiem
Constitutionalist / Universalist
Dear Delta4Embassy
Since you are secular gentile you may understand the laws of God
as NATURE, if you believe there is self-existent TRUTH and JUSTICE.
We didn't make up the rules of nature, just like we didn't make up the laws of science that come with the world we didn't create either.
Whatever is your "personal relationship with God"
is how you relate to collective truth, wisdom, knowledge and understanding of the world we live in.
Your relationship through Christ is like your connection by CONSCIENCE
and if this connection is accurately discerning of true from false signals,
or if your connection is corrupted like a bad phone or internet line that is unreliable
in conveying the right information back and forth.
It is important to take good care of our conscience and not muck it up with garbage,
false justifications and denial and projection of blame and negative emotions we hold onto.
If we have too much noise and obstructions on the line,
how are we supposed to see clearly.
The whole point of refraining from anything that causes undue suffering
is to keep our minds and consciences CLEAR so that we can be in tune,
in harmony and in balance with the collective truth -- ie. UNIVERSAL,
so if this is truly Universal and not made up / biased by man,
then it is recognized as true by all people naturally. Again we as faulty
biased humans "cannot make up" such a perfectly universal body of
truth that resonates with all people of all tribes, cultures, nations and beliefs.
That's who we know what is truly the divine collective universal truth,
if it unites all humanity, as none of us is that perfectly compelling
that we can connect with all people.
We each have our own unique perspective and experience,
so yes, it is different for each person. But we didn't make up the rules.
We just make up language and symbolism to try to EXPRESS them,
but we didn't make up the universal laws and principles behind them.
If you don't relate to personifying the source of these laws and all life
as a "personal God" then a more impersonal view of Nature or
the Universe works, too, where the point is to come to peace with
how you relate as an individual level to the collective level.
Whatever laws or system by conscience you follow
that connects your actions with greater society,
whole of humanity, or all history of all existence,
that is what it means to fulfill the relationship
between "man" and "God" "through Christ."
The relationship between the individual on the
physical human level with the collective or spiritual WHOLE.
Since each person is unique, then each path or relationship
connecting us to the whole (or us to each other) is also unique.
Agit8r
Gold Member
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Some people think that God has a special plan for their lives. In all cases this is a bit of whimsy to justify their own aspirations.
Godwin s Law Review Predestination
emilynghiem
Constitutionalist / Universalist
Dear Agit8r
I've found the opposite. The people I know who discovered their spiritual blueprints
WEREN'T happy at all, but rejected and struggled with it because it WASN'T what they wanted at all.
The first response when finding this "calling from God"
appears to be either NO, hell no, or F*** no.
And that's how you can tell it is some higher calling, for the benefit of others,
and is NOT convenient or what we wanted or thought we were going to do.
The fact people can make peace with this "by our own free will" is
about on the level of Jesus asking God to "take this cup from me"
but having to go through acceptance that God's will is for a reason
and it involves sacrifice and giving up the things, and facing the fears,
that stretch us beyond our limits or own will. God's will is greater than human will.
It is NOT something we can just make up because it involves the greater
plans of all other people which we cannot just make up either. It is like
a collective good will, what is the greatest highest good for all humanity over all time,
so none of us decide that or make it up. We just have to come to terms with it,
and from what I have seen, it tends to make or break people and they will all say
it was the LAST thing they thought they would be doing in life. Sometimes the exact opposite.
It can turn lions into lambs, and lambs into lions, until we each let go of our own fears and expectations and learn to work with the higher will that includes all people not just our own interests. Very humbling indeed.
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Agit8r
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I have met people who claimed that as well. Though since EVERY one of them turned out to be self-serving hypocrites once I got to know them, I came to find out that such people are always liars about their inclinations.
Votto
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The notion of a personal God was started by Jesus as he referred to God as his father.
I'm not sure any other religion has such a teaching.
RodISHI
Platinum Member
- Nov 29, 2008
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Yes. Dante I believe God is personal and at the same time over and encompassing the entire universe. There are too many reasons to explain why I believe absolutely without a doubt.
(I recall conversing with Dante is like walking through a mine field)
An example anyhow's;
There was a fellow that was a very disagreeable little prick that would verbally attack me each and every morning months. He tried my patience in every manner he possibly could. It was a very trying time as I needed surgery and was feeling very ill, the bank, insurance companies and the courts here were all committing fraud (documented by paper and recorded transcripts). It was definately a spiritual attack on a massive scale and I knew this yet it was still very difficult.
The little prick made himself at home in a spare bedroom in the place where we were staying for the winter. The same little prick would advise me every morning that I was duty bound as a Christian to save him. I'd tell him each time "It's not my job if God wants to save you He can and I am sure He is perfectly capable of doing so".
One night as he bellowed about how "your God is so hateful", "a murderer" and so on and so forth. I repeated again "It's not my job" as he demanded that I save him as I walked away shut the bedroom door behind me. He had finally got to me. I was so upset I was shaking as I lay in bed. Shaking too much to sleep even. I asked, "God please shut him up I can't take anymore".
The next morning shortly after getting up before I had finished my first cup of coffee there he was. I kept my attention on what I was working on in my computer and ignored him. He poured himself a cup of coffee from my coffee pot and sat himself down. His first sip he must have breathed and tried to swallow at the same time. Next thing you know he was on the floor rolling around violently and choking. Not sure exactly how long that lasted but eventually he did get up off the floor and sat back in the chair he'd plopped himself in. When my husband got up and sat down to have his first cup of coffee the little prick told him, "I almost choked to death and she just sat there. She would have just let me die". My husband looked over at me. I told the little prick, "I told you. It is not my job to save you God can if he so desires".
(I recall conversing with Dante is like walking through a mine field)
An example anyhow's;
There was a fellow that was a very disagreeable little prick that would verbally attack me each and every morning months. He tried my patience in every manner he possibly could. It was a very trying time as I needed surgery and was feeling very ill, the bank, insurance companies and the courts here were all committing fraud (documented by paper and recorded transcripts). It was definately a spiritual attack on a massive scale and I knew this yet it was still very difficult.
The little prick made himself at home in a spare bedroom in the place where we were staying for the winter. The same little prick would advise me every morning that I was duty bound as a Christian to save him. I'd tell him each time "It's not my job if God wants to save you He can and I am sure He is perfectly capable of doing so".
One night as he bellowed about how "your God is so hateful", "a murderer" and so on and so forth. I repeated again "It's not my job" as he demanded that I save him as I walked away shut the bedroom door behind me. He had finally got to me. I was so upset I was shaking as I lay in bed. Shaking too much to sleep even. I asked, "God please shut him up I can't take anymore".
The next morning shortly after getting up before I had finished my first cup of coffee there he was. I kept my attention on what I was working on in my computer and ignored him. He poured himself a cup of coffee from my coffee pot and sat himself down. His first sip he must have breathed and tried to swallow at the same time. Next thing you know he was on the floor rolling around violently and choking. Not sure exactly how long that lasted but eventually he did get up off the floor and sat back in the chair he'd plopped himself in. When my husband got up and sat down to have his first cup of coffee the little prick told him, "I almost choked to death and she just sat there. She would have just let me die". My husband looked over at me. I told the little prick, "I told you. It is not my job to save you God can if he so desires".
Votto
Diamond Member
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Pizza religion?
Huh.
I thought the point of believing in God is ending with some semblance of hope the search for answers to what lay beyond death's door and how Monkeys came to be concerned about things like life and death on this particular wet rock in space.
Amazing the variety of thought among Monkeys... and double amazing the ability to convey those thoughts via words, eh?
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