do the Chinese really have a territorial right to own Taiwan?

[ralfy]

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/10/18/tech/us-chip-manufacturing-semiconductors/index.html

 

[Mac-7]

do the Chinese really have a territorial right to own Taiwan?​

No they do not

 

[ralfy]

Even the U.S. does not recognize Taiwan as a sovereign state.

 

[psikeyhackr]

The British had the right to sell opium in China.

 

[miketx]

i've changed my thinking on this issue tonight.

i used to think, that because the Island of Taiwan is so close to China, and the fact that the Taiwanese were dissidents against the Chinese Communist Party back in WW2, that China "had every right to claim that territory".

but tonight, 2 thoughts popped into my mind :
* the Taiwanese are also just Humans, and their hearts are Democratic. they wanted to keep living near China after WW2, so they retreated onto that Island and joined the Western alliance of Democratic countries.
* the Taiwanese form no military threat against China whatsoever, not as far as i can recall at least. prove me wrong, Chinese, if you want me to switch sides on this important issue again - your South China Sea naval fleet (and more) is potentially at stake here.

of course, Ukraine is on the international agenda this week, so i'll just patiently await the Chinese response to these arguments i raise here.

Right don't matter. What matters is can they take it? I say they can.

 

[krichton]

Taiwan is part of China, historically, but that's about it. The CCP has never actually controlled the island to lay claim to it. Korea was also part of china at some point in it's history. Does Korea belong to China using that same logic?

 

[psikeyhackr]

China is the center of the world.

The Mediterranean Sea must be moved.

 

[peacefan]

The British had the right to sell opium in China.

on what grounds?!

 

[psikeyhackr]

on what grounds?!

Might!

 

[ralfy]

China doesn't need to control Taiwan.

 

[frigidweirdo]

i've changed my thinking on this issue tonight.

i used to think, that because the Island of Taiwan is so close to China, and the fact that the Taiwanese were dissidents against the Chinese Communist Party back in WW2, that China "had every right to claim that territory".

but tonight, 2 thoughts popped into my mind :
* the Taiwanese are also just Humans, and their hearts are Democratic. they wanted to keep living near China after WW2, so they retreated onto that Island and joined the Western alliance of Democratic countries.
* the Taiwanese form no military threat against China whatsoever, not as far as i can recall at least. prove me wrong, Chinese, if you want me to switch sides on this important issue again - your South China Sea naval fleet (and more) is potentially at stake here.

of course, Ukraine is on the international agenda this week, so i'll just patiently await the Chinese response to these arguments i raise here.

It all depends on how you look at it.

1) Communist China has never controlled Taiwan.
2) Taiwan has had people from "China" on it since the 1100s. However full occupation happened in 1684. In 1895 it went to Japan, in 1945 it went back to China. This means it wasn't a part of China when the revolution of 1911 happened, or when the Communists defeated the Kuomintang in 1948/49
3) Taiwan claims to be "China", the official government of China, it also has a "one China" policy, which is that it should rule all of China, just like the CCP has.

If you look at other dodgy territorial disputes that China has, like the Diaoyu Islands, China will simply change its mind and decide it has a right to something. I'm sure one day it'll claim Andorra or France or something as Chinese. It claims a whole province of India, which it controlled for a few months way back when, and the Diaoyu islands were literally called the Senkaku Islands by Mao because they didn't claim them. Some Islands off Vietnam they took during the Vietnamese War simply because they could, and there's one island down there they claim and the "evidence" is "some guy has a map which shows it's Chinese", only the guy doesn't have the map, it was destroyed, and probably never showed anything anyway.

 

[frigidweirdo]

China doesn't need to control Taiwan.

Yes, it does. China has a problem getting out into the Pacific. Which ever way they go, they come across other countries, Japan, the Koreas, Vietnam, the Philippines, Taiwan would make its access to the Pacific much easier. It is a strategic thing, also, they're afraid of the US on their borders.

 

[frigidweirdo]

well i'm glad to hear that China and Taiwan have peaceful economic relations too.

but from what i've seen so far, it's been China that's been doing the drum-rolling.
i mean, it wasn't the US that ordered *all* of China's aircraft carriers to encircle Taiwan this week, now was it??

China's attitude is this.

If we go to war, it's Taiwan's fault for not giving us what we want. Which is Taiwan.
They're very good at using flowery language to hide the fact that they're saying "I'm a spoiled child, I want that, give it to me or I'll bash you fucking head in."

 

[The Duke]

no, this makes total sense since US domestic chip production is about to pick up.

TSMC is building fabs in America.

 

[The Duke]

Right don't matter. What matters is can they take it? I say they can.

I don't think they can. Tiawanese will go all scorched earth.

 

[peacefan]

It all depends on how you look at it.

1) Communist China has never controlled Taiwan.
2) Taiwan has had people from "China" on it since the 1100s. However full occupation happened in 1684. In 1895 it went to Japan, in 1945 it went back to China. This means it wasn't a part of China when the revolution of 1911 happened, or when the Communists defeated the Kuomintang in 1948/49
3) Taiwan claims to be "China", the official government of China, it also has a "one China" policy, which is that it should rule all of China, just like the CCP has.

If you look at other dodgy territorial disputes that China has, like the Diaoyu Islands, China will simply change its mind and decide it has a right to something. I'm sure one day it'll claim Andorra or France or something as Chinese. It claims a whole province of India, which it controlled for a few months way back when, and the Diaoyu islands were literally called the Senkaku Islands by Mao because they didn't claim them. Some Islands off Vietnam they took during the Vietnamese War simply because they could, and there's one island down there they claim and the "evidence" is "some guy has a map which shows it's Chinese", only the guy doesn't have the map, it was destroyed, and probably never showed anything anyway.

seems like border lines are a total mess in the Indo-Pacific then.
we'll need to keep our militaries properly prepped if we want to support Taiwanese independence.
we'll need to prep the Taiwanese with plenty of asymetrical arms to allow them a fighting chance in the event of a Chinese invasion.
and we'll need those US and EU semi-conductor and chips factories up and running asap, coz in a conflict between China and Taiwan, i really doubt you're going to be getting any chips from Taiwan at all.

 

[frigidweirdo]

seems like border lines are a total mess in the Indo-Pacific then.
we'll need to keep our militaries properly prepped if we want to support Taiwanese independence.
we'll need to prep the Taiwanese with plenty of asymetrical arms to allow them a fighting chance in the event of a Chinese invasion.
and we'll need those US and EU semi-conductor and chips factories up and running asap, coz in a conflict between China and Taiwan, i really doubt you're going to be getting any chips from Taiwan at all.

Take a look at all the places which are claimed by more than one place. A lot of them. China claims a lot of places from other countries. India, Bhutan, Japan, the Philippines, Vietnam.

The problem is that sometimes the lines were drawn and didn't go through a logical process. So, like with India, the British did it.
Will the US support Taiwanese independence? Probably not. It might do what it's doing in the Ukraine, but nothing more.

Well, there's another cold war coming. China is preparing to be self sufficient. They let in foreign companies, copy how they work, then kick them out. Lots of companies have been kicked out, others will find it gets harder and harder and they put protectionist policies in place, or just simply give Chinese firms loads of money to be able to out perform other companies.

China knows that if it went to war right now, it'd suffer. But Xi needs the saber rattling to keep certain people happen and cement his power at the top. He also wants to go down in history as the man who retook Taiwan. How much time does he have left? He's 69 years old. His father lived to 88 years old, and he survived the whole of the Mao era. His mother lasted until 96. However, perhaps Xi is living the good life and eating not so well, he's getting a little fat, but really, not too bad for his age.

Xi Jinping Holds Talks with Gabonese President Ali Bongo Ondimba

Here's a recent picture

 

[ralfy]

Yes, it does. China has a problem getting out into the Pacific. Which ever way they go, they come across other countries, Japan, the Koreas, Vietnam, the Philippines, Taiwan would make its access to the Pacific much easier. It is a strategic thing, also, they're afraid of the US on their borders.

It doesn't have to unless it wants to be like the U.S., which is essentially running its economy and even its military on debt.

OTOH, the U.S. needs Taiwan and the others to put pressure on China because it can't defeat the latter economically.

As for strategy, it has already controlled parts of the SCS, where Vietnam, Malaysia, the Philippines, and others have to similar. That, in turn, is putting pressure on the U.S., which needs to encircle China.

 

[ralfy]

China's attitude is this.

If we go to war, it's Taiwan's fault for not giving us what we want. Which is Taiwan.
They're very good at using flowery language to hide the fact that they're saying "I'm a spoiled child, I want that, give it to me or I'll bash you fucking head in."

It's the other way round. China is gaining economically, and is now leading BRICS, which together with emerging markets are set to take over the global economy.

The U.S., OTOH, is deep in debt and can only spend continuously, counting on the same BRICS and emerging markets to continue using the dollar as a global reserve currency, which is what they're no longer doing:

De-Dollarization Is Happening at a ‘Stunning’ Pace, Jen Says

The dollar is losing its reserve status at a faster pace than generally accepted as many analysts have failed to account for last year’s wild exchange rate moves, according to Stephen Jen.

www.bloomberg.com

That's why it's not China but the U.S. that's the spoiled brat. Why do you think it has over 800 military installations worldwide and a military budget greater than those of others combined, and using those to attack multiple countries across decades?

The U.S. needs to keep countries in its orbit of power, dependent on it and the dollar. The problem is that more of them are no longer listening, and that includes even allies like Japan, which is buying oil from Russia, various European countries that are buying Russian oil indirectly through India, and even countries like France that are accepting other currencies, like the yuan, for trade.

 

[frigidweirdo]

It doesn't have to unless it wants to be like the U.S., which is essentially running its economy and even its military on debt.

OTOH, the U.S. needs Taiwan and the others to put pressure on China because it can't defeat the latter economically.

As for strategy, it has already controlled parts of the SCS, where Vietnam, Malaysia, the Philippines, and others have to similar. That, in turn, is putting pressure on the U.S., which needs to encircle China.

I'm not sure I share your view on why the US or China is doing what they're doing.
Sometimes they do it just for the power, the nationalism, and also for resources.