Do religions permit lying (or deceit, deception, and other equivilents?)

[Delta4Embassy]

While I'd assume every religion has something about not lying, all simultaneously permit in certain circumstances, as with wars.

"Abstract
Dishonesty and deception are serious crimes in Jewish law. The Torah explicitly demands that one should "Distance himself from a false matter." There are, however, situations in which Jewish law permits or even demands that one engage in deception. This paper will discuss when it is permissible in Jewish law to prevaricate and deceive.
Recently, a psychology study found that the average person lies about 150 to 200 times per day. (Geary, 2000; Walsh, 2001).
...
Immanuel Kant also took the absolutist position and claimed that a lie is a "crime of man against his own person" and must therefore be shunned regardless of the costs. He also took the position that one is never permitted to lie even if there is a murderer at the door looking for his victimעs room.
...
Some religious leaders did not agree with the absolutist view on falsehoods. St. John Chrysostom believed that lying in order to benefit others is permitted. Cassian and Origen felt that sometimes lies are necessary but they should be used the way we use medicine, something we do with distaste but out of necessity (Catholic Encyclopedia). Martin Luther also felt that lying for the sake of the Christian church would not be a sin.

Grotius (1925), the seventeenth century Dutch theologian and legal scholar, by many considered "the father of modern international law," also rejects the absolutist position and asserts that falsehoods are only a problem if it violates the right of the individual who hears it. Suppose the individual telling the lie has wicked intentions, then s/he forfeits the right to hear the truth. Similarly, children are too young to have acquired this right and thus may be lied to.

Sidgwick (1966, 313-316) makes the argument that if we may kill to defend ourselves, why should we not be able to lie if this will provide us with a better means of protection. "

tons more but a very fascinating question since it seems to still be up in the air.

Jewish Law - Articles - Should Moral Individuals Ever Lie? Insights from Jewish Law

 

[tinydancer]

While I'd assume every religion has something about not lying, all simultaneously permit in certain circumstances, as with wars.

"Abstract
Dishonesty and deception are serious crimes in Jewish law. The Torah explicitly demands that one should "Distance himself from a false matter." There are, however, situations in which Jewish law permits or even demands that one engage in deception. This paper will discuss when it is permissible in Jewish law to prevaricate and deceive.
Recently, a psychology study found that the average person lies about 150 to 200 times per day. (Geary, 2000; Walsh, 2001).
...
Immanuel Kant also took the absolutist position and claimed that a lie is a "crime of man against his own person" and must therefore be shunned regardless of the costs. He also took the position that one is never permitted to lie even if there is a murderer at the door looking for his victimעs room.
...
Some religious leaders did not agree with the absolutist view on falsehoods. St. John Chrysostom believed that lying in order to benefit others is permitted. Cassian and Origen felt that sometimes lies are necessary but they should be used the way we use medicine, something we do with distaste but out of necessity (Catholic Encyclopedia). Martin Luther also felt that lying for the sake of the Christian church would not be a sin.

Grotius (1925), the seventeenth century Dutch theologian and legal scholar, by many considered "the father of modern international law," also rejects the absolutist position and asserts that falsehoods are only a problem if it violates the right of the individual who hears it. Suppose the individual telling the lie has wicked intentions, then s/he forfeits the right to hear the truth. Similarly, children are too young to have acquired this right and thus may be lied to.

Sidgwick (1966, 313-316) makes the argument that if we may kill to defend ourselves, why should we not be able to lie if this will provide us with a better means of protection. "

tons more but a very fascinating question since it seems to still be up in the air.

Jewish Law - Articles - Should Moral Individuals Ever Lie? Insights from Jewish Law

I'm born again.

I look like Pam Anderson.



No I don't think we are allowed to although you really bring up a question that I've not found an answer to. And now in this climate I've been going thru both books I'm beginning to understand why lying is as big a sin as murder.

Well I think I do. Maybe not.

 

[tinydancer]

I used to wonder...........

Come on. A little lie here. A little lie there. How can this be such a sin.

Now I get it.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

While I'd assume every religion has something about not lying, all simultaneously permit in certain circumstances, as with wars.

"Abstract
Dishonesty and deception are serious crimes in Jewish law. The Torah explicitly demands that one should "Distance himself from a false matter." There are, however, situations in which Jewish law permits or even demands that one engage in deception. This paper will discuss when it is permissible in Jewish law to prevaricate and deceive.
Recently, a psychology study found that the average person lies about 150 to 200 times per day. (Geary, 2000; Walsh, 2001).
...
Immanuel Kant also took the absolutist position and claimed that a lie is a "crime of man against his own person" and must therefore be shunned regardless of the costs. He also took the position that one is never permitted to lie even if there is a murderer at the door looking for his victimעs room.
...
Some religious leaders did not agree with the absolutist view on falsehoods. St. John Chrysostom believed that lying in order to benefit others is permitted. Cassian and Origen felt that sometimes lies are necessary but they should be used the way we use medicine, something we do with distaste but out of necessity (Catholic Encyclopedia). Martin Luther also felt that lying for the sake of the Christian church would not be a sin.

Grotius (1925), the seventeenth century Dutch theologian and legal scholar, by many considered "the father of modern international law," also rejects the absolutist position and asserts that falsehoods are only a problem if it violates the right of the individual who hears it. Suppose the individual telling the lie has wicked intentions, then s/he forfeits the right to hear the truth. Similarly, children are too young to have acquired this right and thus may be lied to.

Sidgwick (1966, 313-316) makes the argument that if we may kill to defend ourselves, why should we not be able to lie if this will provide us with a better means of protection. "

tons more but a very fascinating question since it seems to still be up in the air.

Jewish Law - Articles - Should Moral Individuals Ever Lie? Insights from Jewish Law

I'm born again.

I look like Pam Anderson.



No I don't think we are allowed to although you really bring up a question that I've not found an answer to. And now in this climate I've been going thru both books I'm beginning to understand why lying is as big a sin as murder.

Find myself in agreement with the last examples in the quote. Lying for protection, or in some similarly beneficial or harmless way is permitted. Or in time of war. But not for personal benefit or gain like, or to spread known untruths about others (libel,) or in a trial (perjury.)

Could argue God has lied, or will if he allows armageddon. Following the Flood God proimised to never again destroy all flesh. Well what's letting the world be destroyed called?

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Catholicism permits lies and deceit. The Vatican forces the Jesuits to take an oath vowing to lie, deceive, murder anyone who stands in the way of their agenda. They vow to obey the Pope above all including God. In the Jesuit oath the Jesuit is to view the Pope as being God. They are to lie, deceive, use trickery, anything necessary to achieve their agenda. The Roman Catholic church changed the Commandments of God, Delta. The ten Commandments that God gave Moses? That are listed in the Torah and in the Old Testament of the KJV Bible? They removed and changed the commandments they didn't like.

The Roman Catholic Church didn't want idolatry / bowing down to graven images / to be revealed as a sin so they removed that commandment and replaced it with their own. Watch this video and you can see it for yourself.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Catholicism permits lies and deceit. The Vatican forces the Jesuits to take an oath vowing to lie, deceive, murder anyone who stands in the way of their agenda. They vow to obey the Pope above all including God. In the Jesuit oath the Jesuit is to view the Pope as being God. They are to lie, deceive, use trickery, anything necessary to achieve their agenda. The Roman Catholic church changed the Commandments of God, Delta. The ten Commandments that God gave Moses? That are listed in the Torah and in the Old Testament of the KJV Bible? They removed and changed the commandments they didn't like.

The Roman Catholic Church didn't want idolatry / bowing down to graven images / to be revealed as a sin so they removed that commandment and replaced it with their own. Watch this video and you can see it for yourself.

Hard to imagine why I thought you hated Catholics.

 

[tinydancer]

Anyone who is on a spiritual journey has had to face this. This is a toughie Delta and truly a one heck of a biggy.

Great example.....

"Do you have angels in the house? We want the angels.

No but I have daughters.

We don't want your daughters. We want the angels. "

Ok that truth smoked out two towns.

Should he just have lied and said "hey they left an hour ago"?

The book would have taken a different turn would it not?

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Catholicism permits lies and deceit. The Vatican forces the Jesuits to take an oath vowing to lie, deceive, murder anyone who stands in the way of their agenda. They vow to obey the Pope above all including God. In the Jesuit oath the Jesuit is to view the Pope as being God. They are to lie, deceive, use trickery, anything necessary to achieve their agenda. The Roman Catholic church changed the Commandments of God, Delta. The ten Commandments that God gave Moses? That are listed in the Torah and in the Old Testament of the KJV Bible? They removed and changed the commandments they didn't like.

The Roman Catholic Church didn't want idolatry / bowing down to graven images / to be revealed as a sin so they removed that commandment and replaced it with their own. Watch this video and you can see it for yourself.

Hard to imagine why I thought you hated Catholics.

It should be, Delta. I do not hate Catholics. I'm trying to educate others on why they have hated us - namely the Protestant believers and the Jews. Throughout history the goal of the Vatican was to wipe out the Jews and Christians and destroy the Word of God. They could not destroy the KJV bible so they are now actively working behind the scenes to create false translations and claim the KJV as archaic hoping to make it obsolete. It is Roman Catholicism and its founders who made themselves enemies of Jesus Christ and his followers. Not the other way around.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Islam teaches that it is acceptable and required to lie to unbelievers.

 

[Statistikhengst]

Islam does.

It's called Takkiya.

 

[Meriweather]

While I'd assume every religion has something about not lying, all simultaneously permit in certain circumstances, as with wars.

"Abstract
Dishonesty and deception are serious crimes in Jewish law. The Torah explicitly demands that one should "Distance himself from a false matter." There are, however, situations in which Jewish law permits or even demands that one engage in deception. This paper will discuss when it is permissible in Jewish law to prevaricate and deceive.
Recently, a psychology study found that the average person lies about 150 to 200 times per day. (Geary, 2000; Walsh, 2001).

Friends of the Jewish faith have told me the commandment is more in line with what we consider perjury, and presenting false testimony against one's fellow man. There is a huge difference between falsely testifying that you saw an individual steal an item, and reassuring someone (falsely) that yes, you do like her new shoes.

 

[guno]

A well known tactic

Lying for Jesus is a form of pious fraud which happens when some Christians believe that falsifying information is acceptable if that brings people to Jesus or somehow supports his historicity, saintliness or supposed godliness.

The practice has a long and venerable history in the Christian religions.

Lying for Jesus - RationalWiki

 

[guno]

Islam teaches that it is acceptable and required to lie to unbelievers.

Hummmmmmm Just like christianity

 

[guno]

Martin Luther, in private correspondence, argued:

"What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church ... a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them."

– Martin Luther (Cited by his secretary, in a letter in Max Lenz, ed., Briefwechsel Landgraf Phillips des Grossmüthigen von Hessen mit Bucer, vol. I.)

-

 

[guno]

Testimonium Flavianum' - The infamous 'passing reference' to Jesus Christ supposedly written by the 1st century Jewish historian Josephus (he adopted the family name of the imperial house).

We know in graphic detail the course of the first Jewish War because – remarkably – the history recorded by Josephus somehow survived. Whereas whole libraries of antiquity were torched by the Christians, curiously, this testimony of a Jew made it through the centuries. A subsequent work by Josephus, The Antiquity of the Jews, which iterated and extended his story of the 'chosen people' also survived.

The survival of these two overlapping works was no coincidence because they rather too well 'confirm' from a 'non-Christian source' the existence of the godman.

In short, sometime in the 4th century, while most else of ancient scholarship was being thrown into bonfires, a Christian scribe – probably Eusebius, Bishop of Caesarea– 'rescued' the histories of Josephus and 'doctored' them to provide convenient 'proof' that Christ had been flesh-and-blood and was neither a fiction

 

[Indeependent]

While I'd assume every religion has something about not lying, all simultaneously permit in certain circumstances, as with wars.

"Abstract
Dishonesty and deception are serious crimes in Jewish law. The Torah explicitly demands that one should "Distance himself from a false matter." There are, however, situations in which Jewish law permits or even demands that one engage in deception. This paper will discuss when it is permissible in Jewish law to prevaricate and deceive.
Recently, a psychology study found that the average person lies about 150 to 200 times per day. (Geary, 2000; Walsh, 2001).
...
Immanuel Kant also took the absolutist position and claimed that a lie is a "crime of man against his own person" and must therefore be shunned regardless of the costs. He also took the position that one is never permitted to lie even if there is a murderer at the door looking for his victimעs room.
...
Some religious leaders did not agree with the absolutist view on falsehoods. St. John Chrysostom believed that lying in order to benefit others is permitted. Cassian and Origen felt that sometimes lies are necessary but they should be used the way we use medicine, something we do with distaste but out of necessity (Catholic Encyclopedia). Martin Luther also felt that lying for the sake of the Christian church would not be a sin.

Grotius (1925), the seventeenth century Dutch theologian and legal scholar, by many considered "the father of modern international law," also rejects the absolutist position and asserts that falsehoods are only a problem if it violates the right of the individual who hears it. Suppose the individual telling the lie has wicked intentions, then s/he forfeits the right to hear the truth. Similarly, children are too young to have acquired this right and thus may be lied to.

Sidgwick (1966, 313-316) makes the argument that if we may kill to defend ourselves, why should we not be able to lie if this will provide us with a better means of protection. "

tons more but a very fascinating question since it seems to still be up in the air.

Jewish Law - Articles - Should Moral Individuals Ever Lie? Insights from Jewish Law

I'm born again.

I look like Pam Anderson.



No I don't think we are allowed to although you really bring up a question that I've not found an answer to. And now in this climate I've been going thru both books I'm beginning to understand why lying is as big a sin as murder.

Find myself in agreement with the last examples in the quote. Lying for protection, or in some similarly beneficial or harmless way is permitted. Or in time of war. But not for personal benefit or gain like, or to spread known untruths about others (libel,) or in a trial (perjury.)

Could argue God has lied, or will if he allows armageddon. Following the Flood God proimised to never again destroy all flesh. Well what's letting the world be destroyed called?

God promised he would never destroy all flesh again via a flood.
What mankind does to mankind is, to a large extent, mankind's issue to deal with.
Your issue to deal with is that you are always 100% incorrect when you reference TJS.