Do all of the Gazan Palestinians actually support Hamas?

[Lipush]

No apologies heard over the "accidentally" murdering of Americans by Palestinians so far.
But of course you care about the victims of the USS Liberty, I care about suicide bombings, stabbing, rape, kidnapping, lynching and generally assaulting Americans done by your precious Palestinians, not that I expect them to apologize, but remind me what GOOD they ever did to the US again?

Americans have been murdered by Palestinians?

Google Christine Logan.

God, you people are really clueless, eh?!

 

[Lipush]

When you fail to ACTIVELY resist something evil you passively support it. Since I have never read a story of ACTIVE resistance to Hamas from inside Gaza, they all support it.

Even though I'm hardly their fan, I think it's a bit "overly convenient" to judge a community ruled by an undemocratic regime. Such as Hamas.

Each person resisting they tend to kill. So some are afraid. Unless you live under active dictatorship, I don't think you'll understand that.

 

[Lipush]

Anathema, I see your point, but I truly believe that there are those who do not agree with the way Hamas is going now. But Hamas has such a stranglehold on Gaza affairs; coupled with these executions, they are scared shitless to ACTIVELY resist.

You could say almost the same things about the US Government. Failing to leave or act is acceptance. That's just a fact of life.

Since when do the democrats excecute people on the street?

 

[alpine]

Gaza Public Rejects Hamas Wants Ceasefire - The Washington Institute for Near East Policy
Gaza Strip Support for Hamas Dwindles

It is really funny how you are using a source I did discredit on the SAME page

"According to some very reliable survey, which I wont tell who did, when they did nor on whom they did it on, my point is right on spot..."

Well, it is not my friend. You have shown no credible source to support your point of view that Hamas or Hamas alike terrorist organizations have lost any support in Gaza.

You are living in a fantasy world, in which you can just hit people in the head and they do what you like them to do. But in real world, it doesn't work that way. And maybe this is news to you but, it never had.

That's why Israel waging a war as long as its existence. Because there is no end to this war... If there were, you could have got there loooooong ago.

Is it that hard to understand this FACT???


"We must think differently, look at things in a different way. Peace requires a world of new concepts, new definitions."
-Yitzhak Rabin-

It is really unbelievable to see a society declining its utmost brilliant leader of all times...

 

[Daniyel]

Gaza Public Rejects Hamas Wants Ceasefire - The Washington Institute for Near East Policy
Gaza Strip Support for Hamas Dwindles

It is really funny how you are using a source I did discredit on the SAME page

"According to some very reliable survey, which I wont tell who did, when they did nor on whom they did it on, my point is right on spot..."

Well, it is not my friend. You have shown no credible source to support your point of view that Hamas or Hamas alike terrorist organizations have lost any support in Gaza.

You are living in a fantasy world, in which you can just hit people in the head and they do what you like them to do. But in real world, it doesn't work that way. And maybe this is news to you but, it never had.

That's why Israel waging a war as long as its existence. Because there is no end to this war... If there were, you could have got there loooooong ago.

Is it that hard to understand this FACT???


"We must think differently, look at things in a different way. Peace requires a world of new concepts, new definitions."
-Yitzhak Rabin-

It is really unbelievable to see a society declining its utmost brilliant leader of all times...

I did provide several sources but you denied them all, you really expect me to try again?

 

[Daniyel]

Gaza Public Rejects Hamas Wants Ceasefire - The Washington Institute for Near East Policy
Gaza Strip Support for Hamas Dwindles

It is really funny how you are using a source I did discredit on the SAME page

"According to some very reliable survey, which I wont tell who did, when they did nor on whom they did it on, my point is right on spot..."

Well, it is not my friend. You have shown no credible source to support your point of view that Hamas or Hamas alike terrorist organizations have lost any support in Gaza.

You are living in a fantasy world, in which you can just hit people in the head and they do what you like them to do. But in real world, it doesn't work that way. And maybe this is news to you but, it never had.

That's why Israel waging a war as long as its existence. Because there is no end to this war... If there were, you could have got there loooooong ago.

Is it that hard to understand this FACT???


"We must think differently, look at things in a different way. Peace requires a world of new concepts, new definitions."
-Yitzhak Rabin-

It is really unbelievable to see a society declining its utmost brilliant leader of all times...

I did provide several sources but you denied them all, you really expect me to try again?

I will be honest I'm actually motivated to do so.
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/ru/originals/2014/04/islamic-jihad-support-gaza-expense-hamas.html
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/wap/Item.aspx?type=0&item=183382
Poll Hamas loses popularity among Palestinians JPost Israel News
Palestinian Poll Major drop in support for rocket fire Hamas - Israel News Ynetnews
Gaza Civilians Actually Reject Hamas Policies - Business Insider
Posted in mobile I won't be able to edit but once I find more I will share, have you tried looking for it yourself?

 

[alpine]

Gaza Public Rejects Hamas Wants Ceasefire - The Washington Institute for Near East Policy
Gaza Strip Support for Hamas Dwindles

It is really funny how you are using a source I did discredit on the SAME page

"According to some very reliable survey, which I wont tell who did, when they did nor on whom they did it on, my point is right on spot..."

Well, it is not my friend. You have shown no credible source to support your point of view that Hamas or Hamas alike terrorist organizations have lost any support in Gaza.

You are living in a fantasy world, in which you can just hit people in the head and they do what you like them to do. But in real world, it doesn't work that way. And maybe this is news to you but, it never had.

That's why Israel waging a war as long as its existence. Because there is no end to this war... If there were, you could have got there loooooong ago.

Is it that hard to understand this FACT???


"We must think differently, look at things in a different way. Peace requires a world of new concepts, new definitions."
-Yitzhak Rabin-

It is really unbelievable to see a society declining its utmost brilliant leader of all times...

I did provide several sources but you denied them all, you really expect me to try again?

Dude, I showed you a Guardian and a Washington Post source, claiming the otherwise.

You really want me to take your "israel national news" source as a credible source on this matter?

Anything Israeli is not a credible source at this point, since Israel is one of the sides in this subject matter.

Do you understand that?

 

[docmauser1]

Dude, I showed you a Guardian and a Washington Post source, claiming the otherwise. You really want me to take your "israel national news" source as a credible source on this matter? Anything Israeli is not a credible source at this point, since Israel is one of the sides in this subject matter. Do you understand that?

What me understands is that those, who brings the Guardian up for an authority, are bright-eyed space cadets, of course. [cue Star Trek theme]

 

[RoccoR]

@Challenger, et al,

I would like to break this up into the flaws I see in the well manicured argument.

There is no evidence that the Allied bombing of German cities broke German resistance, ditto Japanese cities. If anything it increased the civilian will to resist, the German bombing of British cities didn't break our will to resist either. Ever heard the parable about the sun and the north wind having a wager as to who was more powerful?

(COMMENT)

I think you might have an observation, yet not understand the evidence. The Allied strategic bombing campaigns (either that of Europe or the Pacific) are so drastically different from anything in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, as to be total beyond comparison. If Gaza City had been subject to just one major air assault on the scale of Hamburg, (45,000 dead)(1943), Swinemuende (23,000 dead) or Dresden (25,000 dead)(1945), it would be all over for HAMAS. These were thousand-bomber raids that created firestorms that could be seen 600 miles away at an altitude of 20,000 feet by follow-on air formations. In March 1945, 334 Bombers of the XX Bomber Command delivered 1700 tons of bombs and destroyed 16 square miles (41 km²) of Tokyo in which over 100,000 people died in the ensuing fire storm.

Air campaigns have a very specific strategic intent. In WWII, as in most conflicts, the idea is to commit a sustained effort against industrial and political infrastructure, rather than purely military targets. In the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in Gaza, the Israeli Air campaign has been much more restrained and much more conservatively focused.

Again, I guarantee you that if the Israeli Air Campaign had been unleashed for 3-Days, there would be no Gaza City left to argue about; there would be no further rocket attacks, and except for the cowardly leaders hiding out in Qatar and Turkey, in all probability --- the leadership of HAMAS, the Martyr Brigades and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad would be burnt to a crisp. And at the destruction rate of 100,000 casualties a night, the Hostile Arab Palestinians would have capitulated. They would have found new meaning it what it means to make war.

I see you like parables; here is a true story:

Cato the Elder
According to Appian the Senator Cato the Elder usually finished his speeches on any subject in the Senate with the phrase ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam, which means "Furthermore, it is my opinion that Carthage must be destroyed".

See more on en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Punic_War​

Let's just hope that the members of the Knessent don't start ending their speeches with the phrase:

Ceterum censeo Gaza Strip esse delendam!"​

We all know that in 146 BC, the Roman Consul Scipio Aemilianus had the City of Carthage completely destroyed and plowed under, seeded with salt. Very little can grow there even today.

This is the lesson the Zionists need to learn but I suspect they know it already. Zionist Israel has never wanted peace unless it was entirely on its own terms, they have deliberately prolonged this conflict for decades because while there is conflict they can grab more and more land. As several posters have said here and elsewhere Zionist Israel could have wiped Hamas out any time, but they didn't and the conflict goes on, and the land grabs continue. As it was in 1947 so it is in 2014.

(COMMENT)

I disagree that Zionist Israel (and I'm not sure really what that means, since there are differing kinds of Zionist in Israel --- and not all Israelis are Zionist) "never wanted peace unless it was entirely on its own terms." The Jewish people, unlike the Palestinians Martyrs, celebrate life. Zionism is not a war-like culture, but a nationalist movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland; a concept adopted by the Allied Powers (reconstitution of a Jewish National Home).

With the exception of the Oslo Accords and Area "C" --- and Jerusalem (which both the Israelis and Palestinians claim as their Capitol City) there are no real land grabs. Certainly, it is arguable that Israel sees anything worth having in the unproductive Gaza Strip. And the West Bank is nearly as worthless as an investment. The absorption of either land tracks would be more trouble then they are worth.

Your supposition that the Israelis want to prolong the conflict simply because they have not burnt either Palestinian holdings to the ground and destroyed the two terrorist strongholds is mistaking the civilized nature of the Israelis for the barbaric attitudes of the Palestinians.

While there is plenty of Palestinian policy documents that stipulate why they continue this unnecessary conflict, there is no Israeli Policy you can point to that suggest Israel must continue the conflict for any other reason than the protection, preservation and safety of the sovereign integrity and it citizens.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Rehmani]

I know that this video I post is clearly skewed as it has "HAMASsacre" in the background, however this story has been posted here with other video links as well.

My link:



Regardless. My question is this. If we are presented with this information, how can anyone say with a surety that all of the Palestinians in Gaza agree with how Hamas is handling their 'struggle'?

Or better. If every Palestinian supported how Hamas is representing them, why would there ever be any "Israeli collaborators" in Gaza?

Things that make go hmmm . . . . .

May be you are right "how Hamas is handling their 'struggle" but what else you can expect from some one under occupation and as you remember, recently Hamas was won election over PLO.

 

[montelatici]

@Challenger, et al,

I would like to break this up into the flaws I see in the well manicured argument.

There is no evidence that the Allied bombing of German cities broke German resistance, ditto Japanese cities. If anything it increased the civilian will to resist, the German bombing of British cities didn't break our will to resist either. Ever heard the parable about the sun and the north wind having a wager as to who was more powerful?

(COMMENT)

I think you might have an observation, yet not understand the evidence. The Allied strategic bombing campaigns (either that of Europe or the Pacific) are so drastically different from anything in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, as to be total beyond comparison. If Gaza City had been subject to just one major air assault on the scale of Hamburg, (45,000 dead)(1943), Swinemuende (23,000 dead) or Dresden (25,000 dead)(1945), it would be all over for HAMAS. These were thousand-bomber raids that created firestorms that could be seen 600 miles away at an altitude of 20,000 feet by follow-on air formations. In March 1945, 334 Bombers of the XX Bomber Command delivered 1700 tons of bombs and destroyed 16 square miles (41 km²) of Tokyo in which over 100,000 people died in the ensuing fire storm.

Air campaigns have a very specific strategic intent. In WWII, as in most conflicts, the idea is to commit a sustained effort against industrial and political infrastructure, rather than purely military targets. In the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in Gaza, the Israeli Air campaign has been much more restrained and much more conservatively focused.

Again, I guarantee you that if the Israeli Air Campaign had been unleashed for 3-Days, there would be no Gaza City left to argue about; there would be no further rocket attacks, and except for the cowardly leaders hiding out in Qatar and Turkey, in all probability --- the leadership of HAMAS, the Martyr Brigades and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad would be burnt to a crisp. And at the destruction rate of 100,000 casualties a night, the Hostile Arab Palestinians would have capitulated. They would have found new meaning it what it means to make war.

I see you like parables; here is a true story:

Cato the Elder
According to Appian the Senator Cato the Elder usually finished his speeches on any subject in the Senate with the phrase ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam, which means "Furthermore, it is my opinion that Carthage must be destroyed".

See more on en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Punic_War​

Let's just hope that the members of the Knessent don't start ending their speeches with the phrase:

Ceterum censeo Gaza Strip esse delendam!"​

We all know that in 146 BC, the Roman Consul Scipio Aemilianus had the City of Carthage completely destroyed and plowed under, seeded with salt. Very little can grow there even today.

This is the lesson the Zionists need to learn but I suspect they know it already. Zionist Israel has never wanted peace unless it was entirely on its own terms, they have deliberately prolonged this conflict for decades because while there is conflict they can grab more and more land. As several posters have said here and elsewhere Zionist Israel could have wiped Hamas out any time, but they didn't and the conflict goes on, and the land grabs continue. As it was in 1947 so it is in 2014.

(COMMENT)

I disagree that Zionist Israel (and I'm not sure really what that means, since there are differing kinds of Zionist in Israel --- and not all Israelis are Zionist) "never wanted peace unless it was entirely on its own terms." The Jewish people, unlike the Palestinians Martyrs, celebrate life. Zionism is not a war-like culture, but a nationalist movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland; a concept adopted by the Allied Powers (reconstitution of a Jewish National Home).

With the exception of the Oslo Accords and Area "C" --- and Jerusalem (which both the Israelis and Palestinians claim as their Capitol City) there are no real land grabs. Certainly, it is arguable that Israel sees anything worth having in the unproductive Gaza Strip. And the West Bank is nearly as worthless as an investment. The absorption of either land tracks would be more trouble then they are worth.

Your supposition that the Israelis want to prolong the conflict simply because they have not burnt either Palestinian holdings to the ground and destroyed the two terrorist strongholds is mistaking the civilized nature of the Israelis for the barbaric attitudes of the Palestinians.

While there is plenty of Palestinian policy documents that stipulate why they continue this unnecessary conflict, there is no Israeli Policy you can point to that suggest Israel must continue the conflict for any other reason than the protection, preservation and safety of the sovereign integrity and it citizens.

Most Respectfully,
R

The post above ignores the fact that Europeans of the Jewish faith, through orchestration by the Western controlled UN, were assigned territory that, through gerrymandering, contained a population of 53% Jew and 47% Christian and Muslim. This was a clear re-colonization of the land with the exchange of European colonizer, the British were exchanged for the European Jews.

As stated by the now majority of the ruling Israeli regime, the ruling Jews want not only the land that was grabbed originally, but all the land now controlled by Israel.

In effect, the balderdash written in the preceding post is just that, balderdash.

 

[Daniyel]

Gaza Public Rejects Hamas Wants Ceasefire - The Washington Institute for Near East Policy
Gaza Strip Support for Hamas Dwindles

It is really funny how you are using a source I did discredit on the SAME page

"According to some very reliable survey, which I wont tell who did, when they did nor on whom they did it on, my point is right on spot..."

Well, it is not my friend. You have shown no credible source to support your point of view that Hamas or Hamas alike terrorist organizations have lost any support in Gaza.

You are living in a fantasy world, in which you can just hit people in the head and they do what you like them to do. But in real world, it doesn't work that way. And maybe this is news to you but, it never had.

That's why Israel waging a war as long as its existence. Because there is no end to this war... If there were, you could have got there loooooong ago.

Is it that hard to understand this FACT???


"We must think differently, look at things in a different way. Peace requires a world of new concepts, new definitions."
-Yitzhak Rabin-

It is really unbelievable to see a society declining its utmost brilliant leader of all times...

I did provide several sources but you denied them all, you really expect me to try again?

I will be honest I'm actually motivated to do so.
Islamic Jihad gains support in Gaza as Hamas declines - Al-Monitor the Pulse of the Middle East
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/wap/Item.aspx?type=0&item=183382
Poll Hamas loses popularity among Palestinians JPost Israel News
Palestinian Poll Major drop in support for rocket fire Hamas - Israel News Ynetnews
Gaza Civilians Actually Reject Hamas Policies - Business Insider
Posted in mobile I won't be able to edit but once I find more I will share, have you tried looking for it yourself?

@alpine

 

[Challenger]

@Challenger, et al,

I would like to break this up into the flaws I see in the well manicured argument.

There is no evidence that the Allied bombing of German cities broke German resistance, ditto Japanese cities. If anything it increased the civilian will to resist, the German bombing of British cities didn't break our will to resist either. Ever heard the parable about the sun and the north wind having a wager as to who was more powerful?

(COMMENT)

I think you might have an observation, yet not understand the evidence. The Allied strategic bombing campaigns (either that of Europe or the Pacific) are so drastically different from anything in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, as to be total beyond comparison. If Gaza City had been subject to just one major air assault on the scale of Hamburg, (45,000 dead)(1943), Swinemuende (23,000 dead) or Dresden (25,000 dead)(1945), it would be all over for HAMAS. These were thousand-bomber raids that created firestorms that could be seen 600 miles away at an altitude of 20,000 feet by follow-on air formations. In March 1945, 334 Bombers of the XX Bomber Command delivered 1700 tons of bombs and destroyed 16 square miles (41 km²) of Tokyo in which over 100,000 people died in the ensuing fire storm.

Air campaigns have a very specific strategic intent. In WWII, as in most conflicts, the idea is to commit a sustained effort against industrial and political infrastructure, rather than purely military targets. In the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in Gaza, the Israeli Air campaign has been much more restrained and much more conservatively focused.

Again, I guarantee you that if the Israeli Air Campaign had been unleashed for 3-Days, there would be no Gaza City left to argue about; there would be no further rocket attacks, and except for the cowardly leaders hiding out in Qatar and Turkey, in all probability --- the leadership of HAMAS, the Martyr Brigades and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad would be burnt to a crisp. And at the destruction rate of 100,000 casualties a night, the Hostile Arab Palestinians would have capitulated. They would have found new meaning it what it means to make war.

I see you like parables; here is a true story:

Cato the Elder
According to Appian the Senator Cato the Elder usually finished his speeches on any subject in the Senate with the phrase ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam, which means "Furthermore, it is my opinion that Carthage must be destroyed".

See more on en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Punic_War​

Let's just hope that the members of the Knessent don't start ending their speeches with the phrase:

Ceterum censeo Gaza Strip esse delendam!"​

We all know that in 146 BC, the Roman Consul Scipio Aemilianus had the City of Carthage completely destroyed and plowed under, seeded with salt. Very little can grow there even today.

This is the lesson the Zionists need to learn but I suspect they know it already. Zionist Israel has never wanted peace unless it was entirely on its own terms, they have deliberately prolonged this conflict for decades because while there is conflict they can grab more and more land. As several posters have said here and elsewhere Zionist Israel could have wiped Hamas out any time, but they didn't and the conflict goes on, and the land grabs continue. As it was in 1947 so it is in 2014.

(COMMENT)

I disagree that Zionist Israel (and I'm not sure really what that means, since there are differing kinds of Zionist in Israel --- and not all Israelis are Zionist) "never wanted peace unless it was entirely on its own terms." The Jewish people, unlike the Palestinians Martyrs, celebrate life. Zionism is not a war-like culture, but a nationalist movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland; a concept adopted by the Allied Powers (reconstitution of a Jewish National Home).

With the exception of the Oslo Accords and Area "C" --- and Jerusalem (which both the Israelis and Palestinians claim as their Capitol City) there are no real land grabs. Certainly, it is arguable that Israel sees anything worth having in the unproductive Gaza Strip. And the West Bank is nearly as worthless as an investment. The absorption of either land tracks would be more trouble then they are worth.

Your supposition that the Israelis want to prolong the conflict simply because they have not burnt either Palestinian holdings to the ground and destroyed the two terrorist strongholds is mistaking the civilized nature of the Israelis for the barbaric attitudes of the Palestinians.

While there is plenty of Palestinian policy documents that stipulate why they continue this unnecessary conflict, there is no Israeli Policy you can point to that suggest Israel must continue the conflict for any other reason than the protection, preservation and safety of the sovereign integrity and it citizens.

Most Respectfully,
R

Thank you for being so complimentary about my digital cosmetic regimen although I’m unsure exactly how you can see the results unless you’ve hacked my webcam!

I think you have failed to grasp the essential point I was trying to make, which was bombing people into submission is a strategy that has never worked in the past and shows no indication of ever working in the future. It failed over Germany, although you can argue the atomic bomb attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki broke the will of the Japanese government to continue the war, there was no evidence it broke the will of the Japanese people themselves to resist.

You’ve quoted WW2 statistics at me and I quite agree that the circumstances are drastically different today; for one thing one modern F-16 is capable of carrying up to four times the weight of ordinance as a WW2 B-17, that and given the vastly increased sortie rate given the much shorter distance travelled, means the Zionists don’t need a 1000 bombers to do the same damage. Taking an average weight of bombs dropped over Germany from 1939-1945 the whole of Germany was subjected to 11,326 tons of bombs every 30 days. Over the last month the Gaza Strip was subjected to approximately 13,000 tons of explosive ordinance; more than was dropped over all of Germany in an equivalent time span.

I would further disagree that, “...the Israeli Air campaign has been much more restrained and much more conservatively focused.” Were that the case we would have seen precision munitions strikes against individual launchers and other clearly military targets, not the carpet bombing of whole towns and suburbs. The expenditure of 60-70% of your available ammunition stocks, requiring re-supply from your American allies is not a sign of showing any form of restraint, as I think any reasonable human being would agree.

Oh and members of the Knesset have been paraphrasing Cato to some degree or other for decades,

"We need to flatten entire neighbourhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn't stop with Hiroshima -- the Japanese weren't surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too. There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing."--- Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai

"The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages, only then will Israel be calm for the next 40 years."--- Michael Ben-Ari (MK)

"There are no innocents in Gaza, don't let any diplomats who want to look good in the world endanger your lives -- mow them down!"--- Israeli Transport Minister Israel Katz.

To continue, Zionism comes in many forms, that’s true, but what we are dealing with today is not a, 19th century “life affirming, idealistic yearning for a mythical homeland” but a fanatical irredentist, nationalist political creed that celebrates the mass slaughter of innocents. There is a profound dichotomy between “celebrating life” and slaughtering thousands of people, I suppose it is more accurate to say “...celebrates Jewish life;” everyone else, the Goyim “sub-humans” can go whistle.

Zionist Israel had multiple opportunities to make peace with secure borders in 1948-67, Syrian President Husni Al-Zaim, for example, offered to resettle 300,000 Palestinian refugees as part of a comprehensive peace settlement that included full diplomatic recognition of Israel in exchange for minor adjustments to the ceasefire lines and access to half of Lake Tiberias. The Zionists ignored him. Even President Nasser made several attempts to make peace with the Zionists but all attempts floundered because they all required the Zionists to give up some territory they had conquered in 1948 but was never allocated to the original Jewish state; the land grab started in 1948 and continues with the building of illegal settlements to this day. If, as you say, the Gaza strip is unproductive and the West Bank nearly as worthless as an investment, then why should Israel bother building Israeli only settlements and infrastructure? If there is no land grab, why continue the occupation?

No land grab, are you sure?

Here’s another parable for you,

“A truck was bringing a water cistern from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. As it was ascending a hill en route, the truck went over a bump and the cistern fell off. But when the truck reversed to pick it up, it fell into the cistern.”—Israeli folk tale.

Think about it.

Most respectfully,
C

 

[docmauser1]

The post above ignores the fact that Europeans of the Jewish faith, through orchestration by the Western controlled UN, were assigned territory that, through gerrymandering, contained a population of 53% Jew and 47% Christian and Muslim. This was a clear re-colonization of the land with the exchange of European colonizer, the British were exchanged for the European Jews. As stated by the now majority of the ruling Israeli regime, the ruling Jews want not only the land that was grabbed originally, but all the land now controlled by Israel.

As Winnie Churchill of blessed memory noted "So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population."
Arab are such settlers and colonizers!

 

[Vigilante]

 

[docmauser1]

... Were that the case we would have seen precision munitions strikes against individual launchers and other clearly military targets, not the carpet bombing of whole towns and suburbs.

Lying like a pornstar, of course!!

 

[Challenger]

... Were that the case we would have seen precision munitions strikes against individual launchers and other clearly military targets, not the carpet bombing of whole towns and suburbs.

Lying like a pornstar, of course!!

Here's a porn film for you...

The Gaza War Map

 

[docmauser1]

Lying like a pornstar, of course!!

... Were that the case we would have seen precision munitions strikes against individual launchers and other clearly military targets, not the carpet bombing of whole towns and suburbs.

Here's a porn film for you...The Gaza War Map

Who made that up?

 

[RoccoR]

@Challenger, et al,

Nice work!

I think you have failed to grasp the essential point I was trying to make, which was bombing people into submission is a strategy that has never worked in the past and shows no indication of ever working in the future. It failed over Germany, although you can argue the atomic bomb attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki broke the will of the Japanese government to continue the war, there was no evidence it broke the will of the Japanese people themselves to resist.

(COMMENT)

No, your "essential point" was not lost on me. I'm not at all sure that an independent air campaign can "break the will of the people." But the will of the people is directly related to --- and --- only as strong as the number of people able and willing to continue the struggle. As I mentioned, such air strategies must also focus on industrial and political infrastructure, rather than purely military targets.

Then of course, when we speak of "breaking the will of the people" we are speaking of all the aspects in which the "will of the people" are expressed. In the case of WWII Germany, the "will of the people" was not broken until every last square meter of ground was occupied and the war making capacity was totally suppressed. Israel has that capability --- but I'm not sure that the People of Gaza actually want the solution that devastating. Dissimilarly, the WWII Imperial Government of Japan, recognized after Hiroshima and Nagasaki that it was in the best interest of the Japanese People and the Japanese Culture that capitulation was the appropriate action. In one case, the Germany Government exhausted every ounce of energy without regard for the people, and in the other case, the Imperial Government until the outcome was inevitable; then acted to save the People and the Culture. It remains to be seen which track the Palestinians will take.

You’ve quoted WW2 statistics at me and I quite agree that the circumstances are drastically different today; for one thing one modern F-16 is capable of carrying up to four times the weight of ordinance as a WW2 B-17, that and given the vastly increased sortie rate given the much shorter distance travelled, means the Zionists don’t need a 1000 bombers to do the same damage. Taking an average weight of bombs dropped over Germany from 1939-1945 the whole of Germany was subjected to 11,326 tons of bombs every 30 days. Over the last month the Gaza Strip was subjected to approximately 13,000 tons of explosive ordinance; more than was dropped over all of Germany in an equivalent time span.

(COMMENT)

Assuming your statistics are correct (I have no reason to doubt your data), what does that tell you? It tells me that the ordnance was much more focused and while the Israeli air campaign may have displaced a hundred thousand citizen, they did not suffer the indiscriminate casualty rates of a WWII Air Campaign. The tonnage of air dispensed ordnance is not as important as the placement of the ordnance.

I would further disagree that, “...the Israeli Air campaign has been much more restrained and much more conservatively focused.” Were that the case we would have seen precision munitions strikes against individual launchers and other clearly military targets, not the carpet bombing of whole towns and suburbs. The expenditure of 60-70% of your available ammunition stocks, requiring re-supply from your American allies is not a sign of showing any form of restraint, as I think any reasonable human being would agree.

(COMMENT)

You have two issue here that are intertwined which are really not as related as you think.

First, Israel did not expend 60% - to - 70% of its pre-stocked ammunition. The Israeli Defense Force has munitions in stocked, like fuel, in their war reserve. Then there are other munitions earmarked for training, exigencies, and routine operations. When these other munitions are exhausted, then replacement is ordered up from the pre-stocked war reserve. At that point, Israel has --- though the US Foreign Military Sales Program of the Defense Security Cooperations Agency, a means of purchasing such munitions and ordnance (from regional US pre-stocked supply points or PSPs --- mor than likely Diego Garcia) as may be necessary to top-off the pre-stocked war reserve. It is a logistics rotation routine that happens like finger movements on an abacus. The US has very similar routines. Expending 60% - to - 70% of discretionary munitions is a very --- very --- different thing from expending 60% - to - 70% "available ammunition stocks;" which is your implication but not the reality.

Secondly, you did not see in Gaza the "carpet bombing of whole towns and suburbs." While not all the strikes were precision munitions strikes against individual launchers and other clearly military targets," the implication that Israel engaged in the "carpet bombing of whole towns and suburbs" is simply fallacious. The IDF doesn't use carpet bombing techniques. While it has the capability to obliterate one square kilometer at a time, this is normally done with some other tools, like a "Multiple Launch Rocket System;" not used on built-up areas. Or, they have an excellent system of aiming Artillery at points, typically 20 - 30 meters apart, along one or more lines that can be from a few hundred to several thousand meters long, and walking the lines forward. But, there has been no reports of that either in Gaza.​

Oh and members of the Knesset have been paraphrasing Cato to some degree or other for decades,

"We need to flatten entire neighbourhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn't stop with Hiroshima -- the Japanese weren't surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too. There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing."--- Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai

"The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages, only then will Israel be calm for the next 40 years."--- Michael Ben-Ari (MK)

"There are no innocents in Gaza, don't let any diplomats who want to look good in the world endanger your lives -- mow them down!"--- Israeli Transport Minister Israel Katz.

To continue, Zionism comes in many forms, that’s true, but what we are dealing with today is not a, 19th century “life affirming, idealistic yearning for a mythical homeland” but a fanatical irredentist, nationalist political creed that celebrates the mass slaughter of innocents. There is a profound dichotomy between “celebrating life” and slaughtering thousands of people, I suppose it is more accurate to say “...celebrates Jewish life;” everyone else, the Goyim “sub-humans” can go whistle.

(COMMENT)

This is pure demonizing propaganda; eloquently spoken, yet still --- pure propaganda. I have been referred to as a "goy" on a number of occasions. But I also understand that in any given normal distribution of a large population there will be those that are beyond one or two standard deviations outside the norm or the society. You cannot take the impressions of the extreme ends of the spectrum and call it --- or imply that it is --- representative of Israeli society.

Zionist Israel had multiple opportunities to make peace with secure borders in 1948-67, Syrian President Husni Al-Zaim, for example, offered to resettle 300,000 Palestinian refugees as part of a comprehensive peace settlement that included full diplomatic recognition of Israel in exchange for minor adjustments to the ceasefire lines and access to half of Lake Tiberias. The Zionists ignored him. Even President Nasser made several attempts to make peace with the Zionists but all attempts floundered because they all required the Zionists to give up some territory they had conquered in 1948 but was never allocated to the original Jewish state; the land grab started in 1948 and continues with the building of illegal settlements to this day. If, as you say, the Gaza strip is unproductive and the West Bank nearly as worthless as an investment, then why should Israel bother building Israeli only settlements and infrastructure? If there is no land grab, why continue the occupation?

(COMMENT)

This tirade is all over the place along the timeline and in territorial perceptions. While a permanent peace arrangement has not been made with the Syrians, such an arrangement has been made with the Egyptians and the Jordanians. Syria can't make peace with itself, let alone anyone else. And as the Islamic State (formerly ISIS) gets closer, having already executed 250 pro-Assad Syrian soldiers at base near Raqqa, it may be something that will change. Maybe the Assad Regime and Syria as we know it today will change.

The Map, as you present, is very old --- yesterdays propaganda. All the lost of effective control, after the first 1948-49 Armistice was the direct fault of the Arab Palestinians. Remembering that the West Bank and Gaza were occupied by the Jordanians and Egyptians.

Today the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are viewed as a single territorial unit (the Oslo Accords), the integrity and status of which will be preserved; and even "Area C", under the permanent status negotiations, will be gradually transferred back to Palestinian jurisdiction.

The occupation is to protect the sovereign integrity of Israel and secure the safety of Israeli Citizens form the extremist actions of the HAMAS Jihad and Palestinian Fedayeen. Since the Hostile Arab Palestinians have chosen war over negotiations, little has changed.

No land grab, are you sure?

(COMMENT)

Absolutely sure.

Here’s another parable for you,

“A truck was bringing a water cistern from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. As it was ascending a hill en route, the truck went over a bump and the cistern fell off. But when the truck reversed to pick it up, it fell into the cistern.”—Israeli folk tale.​

​

(COMMENT)

I'm not Jewish --- I don't get it.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[aris2chat]

Gaza Public Rejects Hamas Wants Ceasefire - The Washington Institute for Near East Policy
Gaza Strip Support for Hamas Dwindles

It is really funny how you are using a source I did discredit on the SAME page

"According to some very reliable survey, which I wont tell who did, when they did nor on whom they did it on, my point is right on spot..."

Well, it is not my friend. You have shown no credible source to support your point of view that Hamas or Hamas alike terrorist organizations have lost any support in Gaza.

You are living in a fantasy world, in which you can just hit people in the head and they do what you like them to do. But in real world, it doesn't work that way. And maybe this is news to you but, it never had.

That's why Israel waging a war as long as its existence. Because there is no end to this war... If there were, you could have got there loooooong ago.

Is it that hard to understand this FACT???


"We must think differently, look at things in a different way. Peace requires a world of new concepts, new definitions."
-Yitzhak Rabin-

It is really unbelievable to see a society declining its utmost brilliant leader of all times...

I did provide several sources but you denied them all, you really expect me to try again?

I will be honest I'm actually motivated to do so.
Islamic Jihad gains support in Gaza as Hamas declines - Al-Monitor the Pulse of the Middle East
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/wap/Item.aspx?type=0&item=183382
Poll Hamas loses popularity among Palestinians JPost Israel News
Palestinian Poll Major drop in support for rocket fire Hamas - Israel News Ynetnews
Gaza Civilians Actually Reject Hamas Policies - Business Insider
Posted in mobile I won't be able to edit but once I find more I will share, have you tried looking for it yourself?

You would think that some posters cannot run a search and have to spoon fed the articles. They behave more like a toddler having a tantrum.
I find information from questionable sites, but I do a search to find the same facts from a more palatable source.
Even highly slanted might have some facts, but some are also total fantasy. I think most posters can do their own checks and separate the truth from the lies or highly bias opinions.